BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: heric
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 05:18 PM

>He ain't goin' to jail, he's goin' back to Idaho. <

This has been bothering me. If his conduct wouldn't justify a fifty dollar fine or whatever, does it justify destruction of career, reputation and family? As I said, I think it may be fair to take one's suspicions into the privacy of the voting booth, but to be pilloried and shamed forever by the word of a crapper cop. . . .

I'm also unclear about the hypocricy thing. I know nothing of this gentleman. If he has said things such as men who lay with men should burn in hell, or sodomy should be a crime, then all right that is reasonably clear. The impression I get, however, is that many vocal gay rights advocates would like to have a standard that any man who has ever touched another man's thingie is required to support each and every plank in the platforms of every self-named advocacy group, which isn't logical. The issues stand on their own merits as the laws apply to all members of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: kendall
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:18 PM

Too bad we can't send ALL hypocrites to Idaho.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:02 PM

It ain't a 'criminal' offense, Bobert...it's a Republican offense. He ain't goin' to jail, he's goin' back to Idaho.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 11:11 AM

Okay, even if I were to admit to it being sleazy (which I don't), I still don't think it should constitute a criminal offense... Now if there is unwanted physical contact or threats, yes... But tappin' one's foot to see if the guy in the next stall wants to have sex me thinks pushes the boundaries of freedom...

If the tappin' of the foot was some kinda heterosexual sign of having interest would it too be against the law??? Even if it was fir a "quickie"...

And as fir "quickie's"... Are they "lewd"???

Bobert (very straight but with many gay friends...)

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Genie
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:28 AM

Point well taken, Riginslinger. *g*

And, Bobert, methinks thou may'st be taking political correctness further than I would. Mental disorders such as OCD can lead an afflicted person to engage in all manner of offensive or disgusting behavior, sometimes including outright criminal activities such as theft, rape, etc.    To me, trolling for casual sexual hookups in bathrooms probably falls into the category of "sleazy" if any behavior does -- at least if it's engaged in by someone who uses his/her political office and power to condemn and restrict the rights of others who behave similarly.

Yeah, I'd call soliciting a quickie in a public place "sleazy."

Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.   ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 11:08 PM

You really can't blame Larry Craig. If the whole thing would have happened 35 years ago, the guy in the other stall might have been J. Edgar Hoover in a dress.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: kendall
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 10:07 PM

Bobert, one incident does not make a problem. As a former law man I can tell you that we often get assignments that we thought silly, unnecessary or downright boring. You do as you are told or you get another job.
We have no way to know how many complaints the police got from regular citizens about that particular spot, and when they get complaints, they have to respond.

And, MG, I don't know exactly what you are referring to about Clinton, but I do know that Paula Jones waited until he was president to say something, and, I also know that she complained on TV about how he had fixed it so she couldn't get a decent job just because she turned him down, then, she drove away in a MERCEDES BENZ. I should be that poor!

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 08:52 PM

Now wait a minute, Genie...

"Sleazabag..."???

Ain't like I have any deep (ior shallow) unnerstandin' here about this culture of folks who are afflicted with "compulsions" but I think their behavior is more a medical/psychlogical situation than a "sleazebag" situation...

"Whatever they call themselves they are often driven by a craving, nuch like that which drives a drug addict siad Fred Berlin of the National Istitute for the Sudy, Prevention and Treatment of Sexual Trama at Johns Hopkins University...

"We use wors like 'pervert' (sleazebag) and we just demean and make hard judgements", Berlin said. "What I found out is that many of these people are hardworkinf and struggling hard to be in control. Anybody can have a compulsion. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a measure of their character. Their character is something different"...

(Washington Post, Aug. 30, 2007, "Tapping Into The Secrets Of the Stall" by Lynne Duke and DeNeen L. Brown)...

No, I believe this is well beyonf sleazw/non sleaze... Seems there are a lot of folks who seek sex (and get) from strangers... It is so popular that there are websites for thses folks...

Hey, I ain't into it but if it floats a number of folks boats and it ain't hurting anyone then, IMHO, have at it...

...'n keep the cops outta it... These are consenting adults, folks... The operative word here is "consenting"... Hey if some guy asks me to have sex with him he's gonna get a big ol' "NO" but should he be arrested fir it???

Give me a break...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Genie
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 08:26 PM

Bobert, you're right, are they gonna arrest Beatles cover bands for singing "Why Don't We Do It In The Road?" That's prob'ly illegal too (not to mention potentially suicidal).

Mary, I completely agree that it should be illegal to engage in "lewd" conduct in a public place, especially one where children may be present.   But it hasn't been proven to me that the "signals" Craig allegedly were sending amounted to inviting the officer to "get it on" right then and there, in the john.

All things considered, I can think of lots better ways the gov't could spend my tax dollars than paying cops to hang out in the latrine hoping to be propositioned by a sleazebag.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 08:12 PM

In the cop's defense, he was assigned to a restroom that had been reported as a problem area. I suspect that it is not a popular duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 08:04 PM

I agree, Genie... That is the point I have unsuccessfullty been tryin' to argue but seems too many folks here are in lynch-mob gear and just don't want to hear the simple fact that there is way too much emphasis on "victimless crimes", which in themselves are a collasal waste of time...

This "tapping of the foot, and brief contact with the foot" didn't hurt one person on the planet... This cop prolly spends 6 hours a day in a toilet stall waitin' for something to occur that I now have learned is not all that uncommon...

What are they gonna do next??? Outlaw a guy askin' a girl what her "sign" is???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 07:58 PM

I don't care if he is gay or not. Or if he has extramarital affairs as long as his wife knows and approves (not likely)...or if he is a hypocrite. There is a function that hypocrites serve...and that is keeping things from getting even worse. I do care about young boys especially being able to use bathrooms safely and without exposure to what is probably perfectly lovely in private but disgusting in public. And I am not suggesting that he is a pedophile..there is no indication he is..but they are out there. But women by and large don't have to put up with that nonsense in public bathrooms..the worst we have to face is overflowing Kotex containers...and neither should men, and neither should boys. Join an internet group to meet "friends".

And Clinton's problem to me was nothing to do with Monica Lewinsky, since she was more or less adult and obviously consenting. It is with women who acuse him of essentially being a predator and forcing his creepiness on them. Who to believe? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: kendall
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 07:09 PM

Now that he has resigned, will this go away?

Subject: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Genie
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 06:30 PM

[[ There was simply no doubt what the Republican party would do once all this hit the media. Craig dug himself a hole for years, saying one thing and sometimes doing another...and he finally fell in it. -
Bill D ]]

Yeah, there was no doubt - since the Governor of Idaho is a Republican and in that state the Gov. gets to appoint a Senatorial midterm replacement.

Had Craig been representing a state where a Democratic Governor would get to appoint his replacement - or maybe even a state that calls for a new election to replace a Senator midterm - , you can bet the Rep. party would've had a helluva lot more "doubt" re asking for his resignation.

==========

Oh, and I'm on board with you folks who object to someone being prosecutable merely on the basis of ambiguous (possibly totally innocuous) postures, gestures, etc. (I'm reminded of an episode of "L A Law" in which one of the attorneys was "busted" by a plain-clothes policewoman because he asked a waitress in a Japanese restaurant for several culinary items including a "hand roll."   It was not till the judge saw the full complaint that it was obvious to her that he was ordering sushi.)   

In Craig's case, if the officer is to be believed, it's the entire pattern of actions that points to his probably having been trying to solicit a "hookup."   Peer long and repeatedly into someone's stall. Let your foot wander into their stall and tap their foot. Block the view from the front of the door with your briefcase. Wave your hand under the stall divider. Etc.

I still say nothing he did should have been illegal except for the voyeurism, though.

Does signalling another guy in the john that you'd like to have sex with him necessarily mean you're asking to do it right then and there?

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: heric
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 06:08 PM

Ebbie: The disorderly conduct may be considered to have consisted of:
1. Peeking in the crack
2. Moving his hands funny while waiting
3. Bringing his carry-on luggage into the stall
4. Bumping the cop's foot
5. Tapping his foot, and
6. Picking up paper.

I wouldn't convict him for disorderly conduct for that but I sure as hell wouldn't convict him of a sex crime either and if I were him I would be desperate to do anything to avoid a sex crime record. If I were him and making the bad decision to plead I would plead to disorderly conduct too.

Genie:

I agree with you on both points but for one major thing: One cop's word against one politician's word.

I do not believe for a second that either of you would be willing to sit on a jury and, beyond all reasonable doubt, convict him or anyone else you love or hate, on THOSE facts as "Lewd Behavior," much less "convict" him for illegal acts that he may or may not have wanted to do in his dirty little mind, but undisputedly did NOT do.

As I said, you can easily think to yourself that this guy wanted some action. I think that's a reasonable conclusion. But people's willingness people's willingness to ignore or be dismissive of constitutional due process rights for the pleasure of bringing down a "bad man" isn't clear thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Genie
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 05:36 PM

heretic,
The part of Craig's explanation that defies credulity is where he said he was bending down to pick up "a piece of toilet paper" off the floor, not to mention that nothing in his statements explains why he (allegedly) kept peering into the officer's stall over a period of a couple minutes.   Once you've determined that someone's in the stall, no need to peek again till the door's been opened.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 05:26 PM

heric, if he "did nothing wrong" then of what did the disorderly conduct consist?

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: heric
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 04:17 PM

He pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct, Not to a sex crime. He denied solicitations or any acts (hand gestures) circumstantially suggestive of solicitation. I would sure as hell plead guilty to smoking a cigarette if the guy started going off on me about loitering near a men's restroom.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduc
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 04:11 PM

Heric - he pleaded guilty. This is a man who would no doubt have the resources to fight the charge, using a first class lawyer, if he was innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: heric
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 04:05 PM

"On several occasions, Mr. Heric raised his pinky finger in a manner which to me suggested male genitalia in an aroused state. There is no doubt in my mind that he had dirty thoughts in his head."

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: heric
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 04:02 PM

It seems we are back to he is guilty because we want him to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduc
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 03:47 PM

Well said Mick.

In my view this is all about the hypocrisy of an elected official - nothing else. Craig has manufactured a front of high morals and that front has been peeled off, showing the man behind. For that he has got what he deserves.

The difference between the incident and flirting in a bar is that, whilst both may lead to the sexual act the actual place in which that act takes place changes the tenor of the original action. In the Craig case it is clear that sex would have taken place in the stall of the mens room, which is not acceptable. Hitting on another person in a bar or wherever may result in both parties going somewhere private - the home of either or a hotel maybe - to consummate the act. It's rather precious to try and suggest that the two acts are anywhere near similar.

There was a lot of furore a few years back when George Michael got caught doing exactly the same thing in Los Angeles and when High Grant was caught dallying (for the use of a better word) with a prostitute in his car. In both cases it comes down to 'I don't care what you do - just don't do it in the street and frighten the horses'. Just don't spout morals whilst behaving like an alley cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 02:55 PM

It appears to me that the discussion is mixing two entirely different premises here, lumping them together.

First is that we have a publicly elected official, one who has taken positions that indicate his feelings are that he represents strong family values, one that made public statements of condemnation against others for similarly "immoral" actions, including recommending impeachment for those who told untruths. He then demonstrates the hypocrisy in his world, as well as the sad denial of his actions. He deserves every single bit of derision for his hypocrisy, and he deserves to lose his job based on what he purports to represent to his constituency, as opposed to what his personal actions demonstrate now, and in the past.

Second is the argument as to whether the laws are enforced evenly with regard to homosexual behaviour as opposed to heterosexual behaviour. I would have to say it is clear that they are not, although I must tell you that I have been approached in restrooms in airports, as well as rest areas, and I was furious about such no class moves. While it is certainly a compliment that someone would find me attractive, whether male or female, when I am in the restroom trying to take care of private, biological needs, I want to be left alone. And if there is a problem in an airport bathroom, where else would the police stage their activities. Has the thought occurred to anyone that there had to be a problem for the police to be there.

As to Constitutional (shut up, Spaw!!) matters of unreasonable search, and entrapment, etc, those certainly should be looked at.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 02:49 PM

Obviously, if Craig had not signed a 'guilty' form, and had instead taken it to court, he would have won, as not enough happened for the cop to 'prove' Craig was guilty of 'soliciting'.
   ...and for 2 months, Craig thought he had made the right choice, since taking it to court would have possibly brought up the same bad publicity and history that he sought to avoid.

The real import of all of this is that Craig does have a checkered past in this sort of thing, and all indications are that he was soliciting and might have attempted further 'activity' if he had not guessed wrong and picked on a cop.

It was a chance thing that someone saw the report and tipped off the paper, and now the whole story...including past allegations...is out.
There was simply no doubt what the Republican party would do once all this hit the media. Craig dug himself a hole for years, saying one thing and sometimes doing another...and he finally fell in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 02:05 PM

um.... counting coup is an act of bravery.
If you could ride close enough to touch your enemy and
got away alive, you counted coup.

Yes-- I meant that people are acting AS IF they are counting coup, who have not earned it and whose triumphant behavior is disgusting rather than brave.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 01:25 PM

Good lord it just occurred to me. I was loitering near a men's restroom in a city park and after I lured the cop, I bent over, buns up in his face. The case against me for wannabe pervert is a LOT stronger than the one against Craig.




Note to self: In airport restroom, hold all suitcases in lap when evacuating bowels. DON'T fidget!!

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 12:33 PM

But TIA - That's the one item of circumstantial evidence Craig denied and wouldn't back down on. A cop can tell four truths about trivial items, and then lie, or misinterpret, or simply be wrong about a fifth. Perhaps he sees it as an "embelishment" to distinguish from a lie so that his case against the perv perp doesn't sound as preposterous as it otherwise would.

Believe it or not, as disgusting as it sounds, I HAVE picked paper off the floor, either becuase I dropped it or because it looked clean enough for me to act as a good citizen.

A very similar incident happened to me last month. I sufered a smoking relax, and had a smoke behind (a men's restroom!!!) in a city park, when it had, in the tme since I'd quit, become illegal. I knew that, but forgot. I dropped my cigarette on the ground next to hundreds of others. Then I went to the car to get a water bottle for my kid. When the cop came up to me at the trunk, retrieving a bottle, I was glad to see him and gave him a friendly hello, wondering what he wanted assistance with. After mentioning the law I broke, I apologized, said I had forgotten the law, and offered my license for the ticket. For the next twenty minutes, without writing the ticket, he called me "disrespectful" what a coincidence for admitting to everything he said EXCEPT that I had seen him coming and was fleeing the scene of a cigarette smoking incident... It just went on and on - taunts, insults, and allegations that I was "disrespectful" as I continuously apologized for every item except being a fleeing misdeamenorite. He said that he didn't believe my apologies were sincere.

After twenty minutes he never wrote me a ticket. He just continued to berate and taunt me for being a liar. I was ready to take the pen and write it myself so my kid could get her water.

The entire time I was very careful, because I knew that he could write whatever he wanted to about my attitude, demeanor, statements, or conduct.

As to Craig, I agree with what WYSIWYG said immediately above and with you when you said: "It's all politics. No honesty to be found."

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 12:31 PM

um.... counting coup is an act of bravery.
If you could ride close enough to touch your enemy and
got away alive, you counted coup.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 10:26 AM

Late to the discussion, I may have missed this-- but:

A, who leaked the news of his disorderly conduct "convicition" and the "truth" underlying it?

B, hm, I don;t seem to be hearing about that side of it on the news, either.

[eyebrows zooming north] What a shock!

I offer BTW the prior thread "Your Career, Dead" for your review: here's another simple case of a really dumb career decision. Shouldna pled it out! Shouldda fought it tooth and nail with lawyer! Because: the cop in the televised "interview" would have been incredibly vulnerable on cross examination. I bet defense alwyers all over are drooling over his pissy, defensive tone on the tape.

It would have been a PR triumph for Craig instead of this sleazy story and the triumphant politicking around it.

I detest people's dancing on graves. They're like film Indians "counting coup," whooping and celebrating-- except that they haven't done anything brave.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 09:11 AM

heric,

You may have done these things that you list above, but I bet you have never put your hand under the wall of an occupied stall. You have nothing to fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduc
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 09:09 AM

News this morning says he will announce his resignation in Boise today.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 02:41 AM

>b) his "explanation" defies credulity<

Not to me. I have brought carry on luggage into the stall (I thought the TSA wanted me to.) I have looked through the crack to see if a stall was in use. I have put my foot close to the imaginary line. (I may even have tapped my foot!)

To think that a single cop could, only if he wanted to, destroy me (my family or career) for some combination of those things, because he thought I might be thinking about his cock, is something I find truly horrible.

I still don't get a lot of this. As I understand it, he never even saw this cop except through the crack in the door. What made him think the guy was a target? If the guy was a legitimate mark, what were they going to do in that crowded restroom when the barriers (stall walls) were only about a foot off the ground? (Leaving his carry-on near the door of the crowded stall was an exprerssly stated item of circumstantial evidence against him. I just don't get that.)

I can easily accept the conclusion that he was probably cruising. To think that the criminal justice system could be brought down in full force, for a sex crime, just because he might have been thinking salaciously is, to me, an awful thought.

And I agree with Bobert that it shows a society with its priorities way out of whack.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Genie
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 12:49 AM

And, Barry Finn,
You made some excellent points, which most people weighing in on this story seem to miss.

No, it's not really hard to understand why, when threatened with having to stand trial on a much more serious charge -- with all the publicity that would inevitably bring for a Senator --, Craig might plead guilty to misdemeanor "disturbing the peace."

(You're right. It's a rotten system, where who knows how many poor unknown folks end up doing some time and paying some fines for offenses they didn't commit, because they
can't afford good lawyers and (rightly) fear the consequences of fighting more serious charges and losing.)

But I disagree as to whether Craig's "crime" should have been one. Not all laws are just, and IMO making a lewd suggestion to a stranger should be, at most, a matter for the civil courts (e.g., if the 'victim' can prove "emotional duress" or the like). As long as fornication is not a crime, offering it or asking for it should not be, either. (What's unclear to me -- as an outsider to the "code" for gay male "cruising" -- is whether Craig's actions were clearly an invitation to engage in PUBLIC sexual conduct. If not, where's the crime?)

What makes Craig look like a sleazebag to me, and unfit for public office, is that a) he can't keep his story consistent, b) his "explanation" defies credulity, and c) even in denying his "guilt," he continues to denigrate homosexuals and to conflate what he is accused of doing with "being gay."

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Genie
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 12:34 AM

Well said, guest TIA.

G

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 12:15 AM

If he sociliated sex or tried to & pleaded guilty to a lesser charge, that's just a crying shame. He got the same treatment that's offered anyone on the street that gets caught up in this justice system that benifits those that can afford to pay there way past it. He got caugt in it because he wanted it all to just go away. That's the way it works. A threat of a heavier sentence or penalty, a long drawn out court battle, the mounting costs & publicity, knowning a public defender will sell the defendant short, or advise a guily plea to lighten the punishment, which he did anyway. All these are what a wealthy defendant can afford to disreguard in there effort to go for broke but not the poor bloke who's weighting his future. He got treated like a poor common criminal, cry foul, see who gives a shit. He shouldn't have opened himself up to all this in the 1st place, the stupid bastard, he could've afforded to by past what the commoner can't afford. Fry 'em. It's a rotten system but it feels more like justice when one of the upper crust gets caught up in it's web. Besides, it's not like he wasout at a pick up joint, you sociliate sex, it's usually for money & the hookers call them "johns" & it's a crime. Had he tried to make a 'legit' pass at someone he might've gotten lucky, seems as if he was lucky long enough & it finally ran out. sniff!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 11:23 PM

P.S.

And I agree with several above that if Craig should be arrested, there are several thousand (million?) guys out there on this Friday night that should be arrested for soliciting sex from women in a public place.

It's not even about homophobia or adultery. It's all about the balance of the House and Senate.

Rant off.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 11:21 PM

It is all bullshit, and comes down to this - the Governor of Louisiana is a Democrat, therefore, the Republicans have not issued calls for Vitter to resign. The Governor of Idaho is a Republican, therefore, they can safely hide behind their evangelical-pandering "god-guns-gays" bullshit and safely demand his resignation. It's all politics. No honesty to be found.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: heric
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 07:52 PM

If placing your foot too close to the imaginary line that divides stalls (straight down from the raised wall), is evidence of a thought crime, and we know that the cop had HIS foot close to the same imaginary line, is that not suggestive of entrapment?

If not looking away from the crack of the stall doors while you are waiting for a stall can get you an arrest record for a sex crime, then I may be with Metchosin (on another thread) that traveling in the US is not what it used to be.

If your life can be destroyed because a cop says you moved your left hand when you say you used your right hand, well. . .

(All of that ignores that he plead guilty, I know. But this is not simple.)

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Genie
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 07:33 PM

jacqui, (" The question for me is - would there have been the same furore if Craig had been caught propositioning an undercover policewoman acting as a prostitute.")

More comparably, would there have been the same furor if Sen. Craig had signaled a female passenger on an airplane that he'd like to initiate her into the "mile high club" in the plane's john?   

(There was no allegation of solicitation of prostitution in Craig's case.)

Subject: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Genie
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 07:27 PM

Big Mick: "One might want to excerpt some of the speeches from the debate on impeachment and send them to the Republican caucus."

Mick, you mean like Larry Craig saying about Bill Clinton "he's a bad boy, a naughty, naughty bad boy -- I'd even say a NASTY, naughty boy!!"?

§;-D

G

Subject: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Genie
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 07:16 PM

Mary (Sinsull), you're right. Craig's "sin" or "crime" is not that he's gay (if he is).*   What bothers me is that so many in the media are:
a) focusing on the "gay" aspect
b) treating the story as if sleazy men's room hookups with strangers is typical behavior among gays
c) going beyond that to the suggestion that maybe he's a pedophile too.

From what I've seen and read, the only thing Craig did that is or should be illegal was to engage in voyeurism (repeatedly staring through the door cracks into the officer's stall), and that's what he should have been charged with.   He's not even accused of having exposed himself or engaged in a sexual act in a public place.   

If it's illegal to "hit on" someone -- i.e., to say or signal that you want to have sex with them -- then heaven help those who go to singles bars and parties every night and do just that. (I've heard even folkies have been known to make suggestive gestures at each other.)
If tapping someone's foot and waving your hand to say, "Hey, sailor, I'm available" is against the law, that law needs to be changed.


Now, if Sen. Craig deliberately pled guilty to something he knew he didn't do, that may constitute perjury.

As for his being a hypocrite, that's plenty of reason for voters to reject him. But personally I'd rather he stay and face a re-election challenge than let the GOP cherry pick someone to replace him at this point.





-------------
*There are heterosexual guys who occasionally engage in sleazy or kinky homosexual behavior as a way of degrading someone else -- or just as a way of being "kinky" -- just as there have been thoroughly racist white guys who would "do" -- even rape -- black women for similar reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: heric
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 07:16 PM

>>Craig could have successfully avoided prosecution by "flashing his Senatorial badge" and saying he was a member of the US Senate in town on official business. <<

Well, then that's a second piece of circumstantial evidence that he may have had lust in in heart (in addition to the guilty plea).

If a guy winked and waved at me in a restroom, it would never cross my mind that he could get ARRESTED for that.

("Dude, you bumped my foot." "Sorry.")

Subject: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Genie
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 07:01 PM

Perhaps Clinton's lying had more to do with the trumped-up Paula Jones lawsuit than anything else.   (And had Jones not sued him, Ken Starr would never have been interested in Monica or the blue dress, much less had any reason to find out about them.)


The Craig "scancal" though, is not about any political advantage to the Democrats -- at least not in the short run.    Politically, it would be better for the Dems if Craig remained in office, as this story would make him more vulnerable to defeat when he's up for re-election.   The Republicans, on the other hand, see this is a golden opportunity to replace Craig with another, no doubt more squeaky clean, conservative Republican, long before that new Senator will have to stand for reelection.    (They weren't so eager for Vitter to resign, because the governor in his state is a Democrat.)


Charley,
Paradoxically, Sen. Craig could have successfully avoided prosecution by "flashing his Senatorial badge" and saying he was a member of the US Senate in town on official business.    I've been told he would have been exempt from prosecution (at least on a minor matter like this) for that reason.
Of course, that would not have kept Drudge and other tabloid media from getting hold of the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 06:48 PM

Sorry, Bobert. Craig's behavior is not "homosexual". It is creepy and perverted. I have hundreds of gay friends and acquaintances and none of them solicit sex in a men's or ladies' room. This is not normal behavior.

I am not even concerned about the hypocrisy involved. Few politicians can expect to get reelected once they "come out of the closet". Vote the way you need to to satisfy your constituents. I don't expect a politician to vote his/her conscience. Cynical? No realistic. If they voted their consciences we wouldn't be in a war.

Soliciting sex in a public bathroom endangers anyone especially underage boys and girls who might be traumatized by the experience. Soliciting sex in a public bathroom contributes to the local sleeze factor and lowers property values. It is illegal. Had he solicited women in the Ladies', it would have been just as sleezy, perverted and illegal.

Craig has a problem. Hopefully he will dewal with it. For his sake, I hope his family stands by him.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 06:06 PM

My experience with cops is, they're a lot more interested in making an arrest, if they can find any kind of reason, than in following a potential suspect to see if he/she will actually break the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: heric
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 06:05 PM

Having to weigh the credibility of a cop against the credibility of a politician. Not an easy task.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 05:43 PM

This would have all been much easier if the police officer had waited till they left the stalls and allowed Craig to pursue the issue...or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 12:53 PM

So very true, Rap...

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduc
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 09:28 AM

Yeah, Bobert...but the Dems haven't exactly been any different yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)- lewd conduct
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 08:32 AM

Not to worry, Jacgui... After Iraq and Katrina the Repubs not longer have the high ground on "family values" or "Christianity"... I think the '06 elections showed that...

B~