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BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction?
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 22 May 06 - 08:55 PM For those who are interested, we can make a good case for a non-historical Caesar. He represents the earth or its regenerative power. He is a Green Man--the mythical man of Old European lore who was decked in leaves and foliage, the very personification of the blooming greenery, it's heart and soul, so to speak. He is still depicted in old European churches and abbeys as a man with leaves on his head of entwined in his hair or his face is a leaf. Caesar means "bald head" and he covered it with a laurel. As "bald head" he represents a mythical time on earth when its life radiation was entombed within and the planet was said to be bald or bare. This life force radiated out and conquered the bald, "featureless" earth, breaking it down like tilled soil, and that life force grew from that soil and evolved covering the earth with life. So does Caesar the conqueror put a laurel of leaves upon his bald head. He was said to have been stabbed by 10 or 12 senators. These relate to the months of the lunar year and the solar year. The Roman calendar by Caesar's time has been a lunar one of about 10 months (it had intercalary months sometimes) and it was horribly obsolete. He replaced it with a new solar calendar named after himself--the Julian Calendar. It has 12 months. So there are your 10 or 12 senators. The earth is being dominated or "killed" by the calendar, the sun, by time, work, schedules, penalties, sorrow. How many stab wounds? 23. The number of degrees the earth is tilted on its axis. It is that tilt that gives us the 12 months of the solar year because the sun passes through the 12 constellations of the zodiac due to that tilt. That's why Caesar was told to beware the ides of March. That was springtime, the time of crossing the vernal equinox which had always been considered the start of the year in ancient times. Spring brought a new birth, a new calendar, a new heaven, and, ultimately, a new earth. This, in fact, appears to mark the true founding of Rome as a state. Before Caesar, we are back to the six mythical kings. Why couldn't Caesar have been as mythical? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 22 May 06 - 08:33 PM >>11. And if you cannot make the case for a historical Christ, then what was Jesus originally and how did belief in him arise and what did that belief signify to those who held it? Read Tabor's The Jesus Dynasty.<< I'm asking you. Since it is beyond question that many early Christian sects did not believe in Jesus as a creature of history, what might their belief systems have been based on? What did it mean to them to believe that way? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 22 May 06 - 08:25 PM >>I don't think there are any 'fundies' who have posted here.<< I didn't say there were necessarily any fundies here. I said the resorting to questioning the veracity of the existence of Caesar in an attempt to make a case for the historical existence of Jesus Christ is a typical fundie tactic. A sort of "We can't really know anything about anyone in the past anyway." To that I heartily agree and ask, "Why then?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 May 06 - 07:02 PM All Hail the Sun God! Ra! Ra! Ra! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 May 06 - 06:39 PM Yeah, I figured that, Greg. ;-P Bruce, I don't think God gives a toot about what religion anyone belongs to. And neither do I. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Peace Date: 22 May 06 - 06:17 PM LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Rapparee Date: 22 May 06 - 06:16 PM Not only doesn't God give a shit about any of this, but she told me she's getting really, really pissed off with Some People. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 22 May 06 - 06:10 PM I was, of course, intending to be ironic George, when I used the Catholic Church's description of itself.*G* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Peace Date: 22 May 06 - 06:08 PM Did it ever strike y'all that God don't give a shit about any of this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 May 06 - 06:02 PM There IS no one true faith. But they all would love to imagine that there is. It's so special being.......***special***........isn't it? If God was a zenophobic, insecure, dictatorial fanatic...then, there would be only one true faith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 22 May 06 - 05:54 PM Tunesmith, I would not normally go out of my way to defend Gloria Hunniford on anything, but as a matter of fact it was not she who made the Jesus/Ceasar comparison. The guilty party was one of her two guests. The one who was a hyperventilating crackpot. This same, wretched, man went on to imply equivalence, in terms of credibility, between the Jesus stories and Newton's universal law of gravitation. My apologies if someone has pointed out the error already. I skimmed quite a lot of the thread because I think we've been here before. Just one pooint to Don: I too think it likely that there was a real Jesus on whom the legend was founded. But keep in mind that the Council of Nicea which took such a controlling hand in pointing the future for Christianity, was conceived in somewhat febrile times and under great pressure from Constantine. The emperor was bent on making Christianity the state religion, having seen its potential as a stabilising factor in an unstable empire. Gibbon is the guy to read on this. He certainly didn't pull his punches, much to the discomfit of the One True Faith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Rapparee Date: 22 May 06 - 05:47 PM Yup. And Mithra came close to winning over Christiantity, too. It was especially popular with the Roman Army. (Me, I'd rather be baptized wiht water, even "holy water", than the blood of a bull as the Mithrans did.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 May 06 - 05:44 PM To worship the sun is not a bad idea, if you want to select a visible manifestation out there to focus on! We'd all be dead without it in a very short time. The sun in the sky, of course, has been seen as a visible manifestation of divine power by a great many civilizations, if not most of them...and it is not coincidence that the word "sun" and the word "son" sound the same in our language...because the one archetype is contained within the other. Each is seen as "the light of the world", and the constant rebirth and resurrection of life...only manifesting on a different level, that's all. To call a Christ or a Messiah or such a figure a "Son" of God is, in a sense to give him the same role served by the sun in the sky. As it is seen to enlighten and sustain the physical worlds, he is seen to enlighten and sustain the inner worlds of spirit and conscious awareness. These things are all reflections of each other, like those Russian dolls within Russian dolls. You don't have to be a Christian to take note of that. In fact, being a Christian, for some, will get seriously in the WAY of taking note of it. ;-D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Rapparee Date: 22 May 06 - 05:40 PM 1. The NT and the apocryphal and gnostic writings present extremely different Christs not only from each other but within the bodies of these works. No one historical 2000 years ago could be that mythologized in only 2 or 3 centuries unless there was a deliberate attempt to hide his identity and why would that be unless he was a criminal? Yes, it could. And in Roman eyes he WAS a criminal -- Yeshua attempted to set himself up as "King of the Jews." Moreover, there are very different Yeshuas presented because there were additions and deletions from the writings about him -- usually to substantiate a claim or supposed role. Call it a result of "greed for power." I refer you to, among many other sources, the work of the Jesus Seminar. 2. He is called a savior and his name just happens to mean savior. Obviously, Jesus was as much title as Christ. My name translates as "Who Is Like God", but no one that knows me considers me Godlike. Yeshua was a rather common name, just as you can meet the occassional Jesus or Joshua today. 3. He was not the first crucified savior much less the only one. "Savior" is a name given by a belief that he died for the sins of Mankind. And not, he was certainly not the only person crucified -- not even the only one nailed to a cross (bodies which were so nailed have been found). 4. No historians or chroniclers of his time or the generation after have anything to say about him historically. Not strictly true, as we've discovered as more and more writings from that period come to light. You'd better do some reading in recent archealogical studies from Isreal and elsewhere. 5. The gospel writers were unfamiliar with the geography of Palestine and his travels as laid out by them are often impossible and many of the cities mentioned in the bible are fictitious. Well, no. They may no longer exist, but they are mentioned in other writings of the period. Also, if Yeshua was a hunted man (which he was) he wouldn't have followed the obvious path then any more than a person on the dodge does so now. 6. Josephus was governor of Galilee and visited every part of it, wrote a history of it and made detailed maps of it. No mention of a Nazareth or Jesus Christ. Origen couldn't find Nazareth despite being born and raised in that very area and he was an early Church Father!! Nazareth is not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, nor in Josephus, nor in the Talmud. Jerome in the 5th century says it was a viculus or mere village, and modern estimates of its size in the first century are in the low hundreds. It was a satellite village of Sepphoris, a Hellenistic Roman city 6.5 km (4 miles) away. [Now known to have been built by Herod.] In 1962 a Hebrew inscription found in Caesarea, dating to the late 3rd or early 4th century, mentions Nazareth as one of the places in which the priestly divisions were residing after the Great Jewish Revolt. From the three fragments that have been found, it is possible to show that the inscription was a complete list of the twenty-four priestly courses (cf. 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; Nehemiah 24:1-21), with each course (or family) assigned its proper order and the name of each town or village in Galilee where it settled. There's more in the Wikipedia.... 7. Philo invented the concept of the Logos made flesh, was a friend of Pontius Pilate and wrote a biography of the man. He also was in Jerusalem when Christ supposedly went there. Nowhere does he mention Christians, Christ or Jesus. No does he mention any trial or crucifixion of any such person. And this proves only that he never heard of this man. Don't forget that Yeshua was Jewish, not Christian, and he founded and led a Jewish sect -- and a rather small one at that, no matter what the NT says. 8. Paul never wrote a word about a historical Jesus and did not place him in Palestine. In his own words, he stated he learned the Jesus story from no man but instead met with Christ in the third heaven--probably a drug-induced vision. Paul never met the "historical" Yeshua. I can't speak to the drug thing, but he did place him in Israel. 9. Strip away the myth from the man and tell me what you are left with. One of the several "Messiahs" who were running around at the time. An itinerant rabbi, of which there were also many. 10. Try to reconcile the gospel stories (no you can't add or omit anything from any of the gospels since you have no way or knowing what might be factual and what isn't) and tell me how this was an historical account. In fact, just tell me what the last words of Jesus were. Sure! "Peter...Peter...I can see your house from up here!" Actually, I suggest that you review the work of the Jesus Seminar and other scholars. You cannot get to the true teachings of this rabbi by accepting everything in the NT (whatever books make it up) 11. And if you cannot make the case for a historical Christ, then what was Jesus originally and how did belief in him arise and what did that belief signify to those who held it? Read Tabor's The Jesus Dynasty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Peace Date: 22 May 06 - 05:22 PM Picky, picky. "One of the principal pagan beliefs of the Romans that enjoyed widespread popularity, observed by millions was the cult of the Sun. From the beginnings of time, people have recognized its power. It rose every day to bring light over the land. In Ancient Egypt, he was known as Ra. The Greeks knew him as Apollo1. Sol was the name of the Roman's Sun God. (a.k.a. Mithra) He was the god that was above all others, the one with whom other deities were compared by. In Rome, the Sun played a large part of the culture. For example, the central opening in the Pantheon (built during Hadrian's time, one of the best surviving examples of Roman architecture) was representative of the solar sphere, and let its light in. The rosettes surrounding the opening are perhaps representative of the obscurity of the other deities in comparison. The worship of the Sun God was basically the state religon for many years. In 274, Aurelian established a huge temple of the Unconqerable Sun in Rome. It was to serve as the heart of the Roman's religon, much like how the Vatican is to Christans today." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 May 06 - 05:17 PM You sure as hell don't need to be a "fundie" or even a Christian to believe it probable that Jesus existed. Vast numbers of non-Christians and plenty of atheists believe he existed. It's not that hard a thing to believe, unless you're got a huge chip on your shoulder about the matter. You might have to be a fundie to believe certain religious doctrinal stuff about him....but that's another matter altogether. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Peace Date: 22 May 06 - 05:04 PM I don't think there are any 'fundies' who have posted here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 May 06 - 05:04 PM Yeah, yeah... (grin) Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could browbeat everyone in the world into believing everything you believe, AR282? Heh! No...it would not be wonderful at all. Stop trying to save people from themselves. It's just as annoying as when religious people knock on your door and try to "save" you from yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 22 May 06 - 04:57 PM What amuses on this thread more than anything is the constant fundie tactic of resorting to saying Julius Caesar never existed. Even if he didn't, that does nothing to bolster the case for Jesus--damages it in fact--and if he did that does nothing to bolster the case for Jesus either. Pointless but amusing endeavor. Really, folks, stick to the facts. I've laid them out for you. Let's go over it carefully: 1. The NT and the apocryphal and gnostic writings present extremely different Christs not only from each other but within the bodies of these works. No one historical 2000 years ago could be that mythologized in only 2 or 3 centuries unless there was a deliberate attempt to hide his identity and why would that be unless he was a criminal? 2. He is called a savior and his name just happens to mean savior. Obviously, Jesus was as much title as Christ. 3. He was not the first crucified savior much less the only one. 4. No historians or chroniclers of his time or the generation after have anything to say about him historically. 5. The gospel writers were unfamiliar with the geography of Palestine and his travels as laid out by them are often impossible and many of the cities mentioned in the bible are fictitious. 6. Josephus was governor of Galilee and visited every part of it, wrote a history of it and made detailed maps of it. No mention of a Nazareth or Jesus Christ. Origen couldn't find Nazareth despite being born and raised in that very area and he was an early Church Father!! 7. Philo invented the concept of the Logos made flesh, was a friend of Pontius Pilate and wrote a biography of the man. He also was in Jerusalem when Christ supposedly went there. Nowhere does he mention Christians, Christ or Jesus. No does he mention any trial or crucifixion of any such person. 8. Paul never wrote a word about a historical Jesus and did not place him in Palestine. In his own words, he stated he learned the Jesus story from no man but instead met with Christ in the third heaven--probably a drug-induced vision. 9. Strip away the myth from the man and tell me what you are left with. 10. Try to reconcile the gospel stories (no you can't add or omit anything from any of the gospels since you have no way or knowing what might be factual and what isn't) and tell me how this was an historical account. In fact, just tell me what the last words of Jesus were. 11. And if you cannot make the case for a historical Christ, then what was Jesus originally and how did belief in him arise and what did that belief signify to those who held it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Haruo Date: 22 May 06 - 04:55 PM Quite a good thread at times this one but I do have a question - forget the did He exist what was His real name stuff - what I want to know is Peter, Andrew, Phillip, Bartholemew, Thomas, Matthew etc...what were all those English blokes doing hanging about with him in first millenium Palestine? - Charmain Also, what denomination were the other ones? We know about "John the Baptist" and of course Peter must have been Catholic since he became Pope, but was it "Bartholomew the Greek Orthodox" and "Andrew the Presbyterian", "Philip the Anglican", "Thomas the Unitarian", "Matthew the Messianic Jew", etc., or what? Also, as far as Constantine's Sun God goes, remember his vision: it was the Sun God (Sol Invictus, not Ra; Ra spoke Coptic) who pointed him in the direction of the cross, saying "In Hoc Signo Vinces". And remember my little ditty, to Frère Jacques: Sol Invictus, Sol InvictusThere, now this thread doesn't have to stay down here in the BS since I gave it a folk music tie-in ;-) Haruo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Peace Date: 22 May 06 - 04:47 PM "During the night of July 18, 64 AD, fire broke out in the merchant area of the city of Rome. Fanned by summer winds, the flames quickly spread through the dry, wooden structures of the Imperial City. Soon the fire took on a life of its own consuming all in its path for six days and seven nights. When the conflagration finally ran its course it left seventy percent of the city in smoldering ruins. Rumors soon arose accusing the Emperor Nero of ordering the torching of the city and standing on the summit of the Palatine playing his lyre as flames devoured the world around him. These rumors have never been confirmed. In fact, Nero rushed to Rome from his palace in Antium (Anzio) and ran about the city all that first night without his guards directing efforts to quell the blaze. But the rumors persisted and the Emperor looked for a scapegoat. He found it in the Christians, at that time a rather obscure religious sect with a small following in the city. To appease the masses, Nero literally had his victims fed to the lions during giant spectacles held in the city's remaining amphitheater." from www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/rome.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Peace Date: 22 May 06 - 04:38 PM Not quite so. One of the reasons Constantine called the Council in 325 was because he had to accommodate the Christians who were being persecuted. His problem was getting something resembling peace in Italy--specifically Rome. Subsequently, we can see coins of the time bearing both the Cross and the Sun God (Ra). Constantine dealt in political realities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 22 May 06 - 04:28 PM >>Christians were persecuted.<< Actually, according to a number of historians, there is no evidence for this if you're talking about Rome. No one really talks much about it other than Tacitus who mentioned it apparently to discredit Nero whom he hated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Rapparee Date: 22 May 06 - 04:01 PM Shakespeare exists?? C'mon...next you'll be telling me George W. Bush exists! Pull the other one so I won't walk funny. A member's name has been removed from this message at the request of the member. - Bert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Peace Date: 22 May 06 - 03:30 PM Even if he didn't exist, he does now. So do Julius Caesar and William Shakespeare. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Charmain Date: 22 May 06 - 02:45 PM Quite a good thread at times this one but I do have a question - forget the did He exist what was His real name stuff - what I want to know is Peter, Andrew, Phillip, Bartholemew, Thomas, Matthew etc...what were all those English blokes doing hanging about with him in first millenium Palestine? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 May 06 - 02:24 PM Whatever people believe about this matter...if they believe it strongly, and are willing to argue at length about it....is generally indicative of their own emotional needs, not their devotion to sorting out historical facts. This is as true of those who insist he didn't exist as of those who insist he did. In either case, they don't know. They are engaging in speculation, conjecture, and most likely a lot of wishful thinking. ;-) They want to rain on someone else's parade. They want to PROVE that a whole bunch of other people are WRONG, totally wrong, deluded, etc., and are not as smart as they are. Well, they can't prove it, and I wish them no luck in doing so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: GUEST,thurg Date: 22 May 06 - 01:46 PM flattop - Thanks for the quote from Reade - it really is compelling writing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 22 May 06 - 01:46 PM >>Why, do you suppose, the Epistle of James is rarely or never read in churches??<< Probably because the epistle tells us nothing about Jesus Christ at all. Not even that he was crucified. In fact, James appears to be saying that Jesus Christ has not walked on earth yet. When he exhorts his readers to bear their suffering, he tells them to look to the prophets for their inspiration in this endeavor rather than to Jesus which would indicate he never heard the standard gospel story. Obviously, there were very different views as to who and what Jesus Christ was. A historical man is only one of many views at that time and a very minority view at that. He couldn't be historical and have such widely divergent views about him or he lived much, much earlier than we are led to believe and so his life is shrouded in mythology but that is really the same as saying he never existed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Rapparee Date: 22 May 06 - 12:27 PM Old joke from my Catholic college days: "Hey, didcha hear? Easter's been cancelled!" "Wow! How come?" "They found the body." Which brings to mind the question of what would happen if they DID find the body. With absolute proof as to identity.... I doubt that Christianity, Judaism, or Islam would much care for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Amos Date: 22 May 06 - 11:40 AM I would submit that, for present intents and purposes, there may be some handful of viable policies in all the gospels stacked together, some very profound and basic and others less so. But aside from this thin set of applicable principles, the issues of existence, un-existence, time, character and events around this person are largely smoke and mirrors, not meant for resolution or for use, and only marginally contributing to good purpose or good action. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 May 06 - 11:35 AM perhaps he should have sent it more places |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 May 06 - 10:35 AM You summed it up nicely there, Rapaire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Rapparee Date: 22 May 06 - 09:02 AM Yeah, CE, not BCE. Yeshua was neither Merlin nor PDQ Bach. Why, do you suppose, the Epistle of James is rarely or never read in churches?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 May 06 - 06:47 AM Yes, you only get one present if your birthday is Christmas Day. Bummer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 May 06 - 06:02 AM or maybe he liked the Micheael jackson song Billy jean, it has that line in it - I bet that's what was running through his mind when he selected that length of time...... How long shall I spend in the wilderness he was thinking, and (then God had fitted his only son with an internal ipod, a last minute thought as a Christmas present before he was born) and Michael's track came up......... and the rest is history..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Haruo Date: 22 May 06 - 04:59 AM But the forty days Jesus spent in the wilderness were probably meant to recall both the forty days (and forty nights) Noah and family spent in the ark with all the clean and unclean critters and the forty years Moses and Aaron led the Israelites around the Sinai. So maybe Moses PBUH was really Muhammed, too, PBUHT. Haruo BTW, AR282, this means you can give all your money to your favorite mosque or synagogue and it'll be fine by God. Tell them I suggested it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 May 06 - 04:16 AM Just 40 days in the wilderness Dianavan, and that hundreds of years before Mohammed, peace be upon him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: dianavan Date: 22 May 06 - 01:08 AM Christ was a concept long before the birth of Mary's child, Jesus of Nazareth. The concept of the Messiah existed among the Jews, as well. Although Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew, the Jews did not accept him as the Messiah. (Some even say that the forty years in the wilderness, were spent in the desert among the nomadic tribes. In the Wilderness, he preached the word of Allah) It may even be that Jesus and Mohammed were one in the same. Don't forget that these stories were told orally and passed down through time, long before they were recorded. Is it any wonder that the dates and times don't always coincide? Many of the older religions also had the birth (usually virgin, the life, the death and a Christ that arises or is re-born). These non-Jews then adopted Jesus of Nazareth as their own and incorporated many of the ancient rites and festivals. Peace - I think there is a big difference between Christ and Jesus. Christ is a concept. Jesus was a Man of God. I think there has been more than one Man of God. I think the Christ concept will live forever because it is rooted in the cycles of the earth. Jesus didn't live forever but the Christ concept did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: CapriUni Date: 22 May 06 - 12:47 AM Flattop -- ;-D is a way of "drawing" a person winking and grinning at the same time (imagine turning the image 90 degrees clockwise). It's called an 'emoticon' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Haruo Date: 22 May 06 - 12:23 AM Rapaire, I think you probably meant 30 CE? (Unless you're suggesting that, Merlin-like, Jesus lived backwards through time.) Haruo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Haruo Date: 22 May 06 - 12:17 AM It is even thought by some that "Barrabas" may have had the full name of "Yeshua bar Abbas" or Jesus Barrabas -- a revolt by a person of that name was recorded by the Romans. See this section in Wikipedia. I don't believe every wiki I run into, but the basic thrust of this section is right on the money: the canonical gospels say that the insurrectionist released at the crowd's behest, like the one left to be crucified, was named "Jesus Barabbas": "Salvador Fatherson", so to speak. It is this sort of thing that (while not buying into any particular alternative theory of how Jesus was an amanita mushroom or a space alien or Mary Magdalene's secret hubby or anything) makes insisting on the gospels (canonical or otherwise) as straightforward historical sources problematic for me. Haruo PS: And DaveO, AR282 was partly right, I think; there were places where you seemed to be confusing the Jesus/Savior/Soter etymologies with the Christ/Messiah/Anointed ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Rapparee Date: 22 May 06 - 12:07 AM What seems to emerge is this: 1. There was a itinerant Rabbi named Yeshua who lived in Galillee between about 5 BCE to 30 BCE. He may or may not have claimed to be the Davidic messiah. 2. He founded a Jewish sect, such as the Quram community, the Essenes, and others of the period. 3. He was crucified by the Romans, probably for setting himself up as the King of the Jewish Nation. 4. After his death his followers scattered, probably to Galillee, and later regrouped. From there they had power grabs, theological spats, and schisms. 5. Paul (nee Saul of Tarsus) ramrodded his ideas through, remaking the original Jewish sect into the seed of what we now call Christianity. That Yeshua probably existed is all but certain, since many people wrote down what they think he said, did and taught. The rest of it becomes matters of Faith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Haruo Date: 22 May 06 - 12:01 AM From: GUEST,AR282 - PM Quite likely none. After all, there were very few people prior to Eusebius. That there is direct evidence of, anyhow, as opposed to later copyists' (who may have been authors') attestations. Eusebius is pretty shaky ground upon which to build a proof; he was clearly not an historian in any impartial "let the facts speak for themselves" sense. But then... what evidence do we have that Eusebius existed? Haruo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 21 May 06 - 11:58 PM Good people, we haven't even got a concensus on who or why or how many killed Jack Kennedy on Friday November 22nd, 1963. History is just the best educated guesses we can make. And then some crazy dude writes another book. Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: flattop Date: 21 May 06 - 11:44 PM Bobad wrote: > By saying no one of his time or the generation > after him wrote of him, we're talking Claudius, > Livy, Tacitus, Suetonius, Philo, Josephus, Pliny, > Seneca and so on. May not prove anything. Christians were persecuted. Literature about Christianity may have been destroyed. Pliny wrote about Christians and Christ, (Book 10, #96-97). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: flattop Date: 21 May 06 - 11:30 PM Yes Walsh. One of your posts ends with ";-D" Is that a sign? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: Little Hawk Date: 21 May 06 - 11:24 PM The long quote about night life in Roman cities and the Christians in the catacombs...I liked it. (No one has to convince me that organized religion can be weird.) ;-) Still, I have no difficulty imagining that Jesus/Yeshua was a real person who walked around and preached and got crucified and had a religion started afterward in his name. Some people seem to have a deep emotional need to prove he never existed....not an easy thing to do after all this time! Heh! But faith is unshakeable in both true believers and sworn non-believers. They both tend to suffer from the same kind of dogmatic obsession to prove themselves right and others wrong, in my opinion. It's a psychological illness commonly found in about 99.8 percent of humankind. Who is "little Davey"? Do you mean Walsh? What "D" stuff? I don't follow you. (But that's just because you aren't quite charismatic enough! Heh!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: flattop Date: 21 May 06 - 10:58 PM Which quote? Didn't I pile it on? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Julius Caesar/Jesus - fact or fiction? From: flattop Date: 21 May 06 - 10:56 PM Hey George, I'm still in Cape Breton. Things are fine, or maybe not, depends on the moment, you know how it is. I've got the book, Full Catastrophe Living, on my desk (by the same author as, Wherever You Go, There You Are) but I find it unreadable. You'd probably love it. What the 'D' stuff on your login? Are you there with little davey? David |
