BS: Church V State

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 06:39 AM

Jack, As XX has clearly stated these buildings were erected by the labour of "the people" the masons, the carpenters etc etc. Now I, and you, have to pay to visit a so-called house of god. Something fundamentally wrong with that in my book.

BTW I do understand the massive cost of upkeep. I used to be responsible for the running of various buildings in my employ for most of the last twenty years of my working life.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 06:30 AM

Neither you nor I nor anyone else has any say in the matter.

This is a democracy.
When enough people want change, it will happen.
The fact is that it is not an issue for many people at all.
When did you last hear it being discussed anywhere other than Mudcat?

We have abolished hereditary peers.
We have gay marriage.
When enough people want change, it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 06:17 AM

At York adult admission is £10 for the minster or £15 for the minster and tower.

Peanuts compared to what you get for your money. As I said earlier, if you Gift-Aid it, it's valid for a whole year. I don't think you can say fairer than that really.

Unlike (as it would seem) some folks here I can't go round these places without being reminded of the inequality and authoritarian nature of the society that built them. But unlike the same folks here I don't think that is relevant now - it's in the past.

History is integral to our heritage. For sure, it's pretty rancid but the old hierarchies endure defining the nature of British society from the homeless to the monarchy. Remember, such functionalist conservatism is an integral part of Christian thinking. As they still sing : the rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate - God made them high and lowly - He ordered their estate. All things bright and beautiful etc.

Not sure what this tells us though.

It tells us that Westminster Abbey (c. 1090) is a very different sort of place to Westminster Cathedral (c. 1903). Love them both myself; the latter was recently mistaken for a mosque by the idiots of UKIP.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 06:13 AM

"I still think it's OK for some of those in the present day heirarchy to be chosen to express their views in an organised talking shop. Otherwise they and the rest of the gang there would be doing it behind closed doors. They may still be but leaks revealing hypocrisy and inconsistency spread fast now"

My problem XX as I have said before the church has 26 seats in the House of Lords in perpetuity. Neither you nor I nor anyone else has any say in the matter. We, the people, cannot decide we do not like what they are saying or doing and remove them. It can easily be argued that they are not representative of the population, a small minority of people attend church on a regular basis and those numbers are propped up by the migrant population (which is sure to "please" a number of posters on this forum.)

The House of Lords in it's current format is an anachronism which is past it's sell by date, but as I've previously stated that is a separate discussion. I would prefer if people would stay on the main argument much as I love architecture.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 05:50 AM

On an early visit to London I was quite amazed at the high cost of entering Westminster Abbey compared to the free entry to Westminster Cathedral. On looking it up I see that the Abbey is now £20 for a standard adult ticket while the Cathedral is still free apart from entry of £6 to the viewing gallery in the tower and there is a separate exhibition of treasures for which the cost is £5. At least it is free to just have a look round. Not sure what this tells us though.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,XX
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 05:42 AM

The buildings were paid for by the fruits of the labour of working people in the area. I guess some credit might be due to effective planning and management by the fuedal heirarchy - but they paid themselves well enough for that.

Unlike (as it would seem) some folks here I can't go round these places without being reminded of the inequality and authoritarian nature of the society that built them. But unlike the same folks here I don't think that is relevant now - it's in the past.

I still think it's OK for some of those in the present day heirarchy to be chosen to express their views in an organised talking shop. Otherwise they and the rest of the gang there would be doing it behind closed doors. They may still be but leaks revealing hypocrisy and inconsistency spread fast now.

Just at the moment they same to be arguing against current inequalities.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 04:38 AM

I think most people can understand the vast cost of maintaining such buildings as Durham Cathedral or Westminster Abbey, however the church now charges exorbitant amounts of money to even enter the building. They do set aside a small chapel at York Minster for people who just want to pray. This is carefully screened off so you cannot see the interior of the main building. I, for one, refuse to pay the fee to enter such a building and confine myself to looking at the external architecture. At York adult admission is £10 for the minster or £15 for the minster and tower. I would gladly make a donation (probably equal to if not exceeding the fee) if I were not being "forced" to pay it. However judging by the number of people who do visit each day, week, month, year (some 1,600,000 in 2000) visitor fees alone are substantial, that is not taking into account money spent on tourist tat which seems to be ever present(and in increasing amounts) at such venues together with guide books, candles etc etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 04:04 AM

As a Catholic, I've heard that, but I wonder if it's true

It is. Same with all other medieval cathedrals in the UK. Though York Minster often hosts events by other faiths (at a cost) the rite is very much Anglican. Much emphasis is placed on continuity of Christian Worship at these sites, but it's the discontinuity that makes it interesting.

https://www.churchofengland.org/about-us/our-buildings/cathedrals.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 03:43 AM

"Jim ...our house stands on an isolated crossroads, in the early fifties the door was always open, and the travellers knew that there was always a cup of tea"
All very romantic Ake, but your earlier posting reads like the interviews MacColl and Parkerdid with householders who were claiming that "these people aren't real Travellers", and that they "don't want to live like us" and insisted that they be driven out of the society of "decent people"
One man described "the dark-haired bints in long dresses dancing around the camp-fires" wearing earrings and beating tambourines".
This is dangerous, racist nonsense and has led to the persecution of today's Travellers that we witnesses (and sometimes experienced because of our association with them), throughout the time we worked with them.
Nobody knows for certain how Travellers originated - the earliest of them probably came from Asia, but persecution, urbanisation and inter-marriage makes nonsense of claims of being "a real Gypsy" or "a real Romany" - a term used to scapegoat the Scots and the Irish, sadly, often by English Travellers.
The offensive description you give of " the scrap metal merchants, and cowboy builders who con the elderly all over this part of Scotland", is largely due to Travellers losing their traditional rural occupations, moving into cities and picking up the worst of city habits.
It may describe a small number of them, and it equally applies to groups of settled people using shady methods to eke out a living in post-Thatcher Britain.
As someone who describes himself as a Socialist, you really should be ashamed of yourself, but I doubt that you are.
I agree entirely with what Jack Blandiver said about your equally nonsensical view of the working class.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 03:39 AM

Stated above: as for the great cathedrals, abbey, friaries of the UK a good majority were "stolen" from the catholic faith who originally built them.

As a Catholic, I've heard that, but I wonder if it's true. Who really "owns" the York Minster, for example? The Church of Rome, or the Church of England? I think it's the people of York who have the most legitimate claim to the building.

Nowadays, though, Gothic cathedrals are huge liabilities, and it costs lots of money to preserve them. They're of little use to churches in this day and age. Should they be torn down? If not, who should pay for their upkeep?

We have the same problem with the Franciscan missions here in California. They're a terrific tourist attraction, but they don't work very well as churches any more. So, who should own them, and who should pay for their upkeep?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 03:03 AM

but the "working class" as an organised political entity has been decimated.

The working class never were an organised political entity, rather the servile underdogs of a stratified system of cultural & economic apartheid that continues unabated from the Norman Conquest (and earlier) to the present day.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 15 - 02:56 AM

There are "workers", but the "working class" as an organised political entity has been decimated.

Technology has done the same to the "tinkers"


Jim ...our house stands on an isolated crossroads, in the early fifties the door was always open, and the travellers knew that there was always a cup of tea, a fill of tobacco and in the cold weather a nip of whisky waiting for them.
They always insisted on leaving a string of "whangs"(leather boot laces), a card of buttons, or some hooks and eyes and a "purn" of thread...they could tell the finest stories.....our family were well known to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 04:29 PM

Like the "Working Class", the "Travellers" are a part of history

What planet are you on, Ache?

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:49 PM

"Like the "Working Class", the "Travellers" are a part of history"
Not necessarily
Even those that have been (often forcibly) settled consider themselves Travellers and spend half the year Travelling, were possible.
We met a lady who is working with the grand-daughter of one of our best singers in Waterford, who we are told, is now on the road and will not be back till October.
There's enough evidence to suggest this was always the case - Travellers rented houses in winter and prepared the following year's tinware
Travellers always gave a place they identified with, sometimes where they or one of their parents were born, but quite often, where thy chose to stay the winter.
Until urbanisation, they had set routs, which often conined them to one or maybe two counties.
Couldn't begin to understand your "working class" reference - seems was living a lie for fifty years and many of my family still are...
But not here.
Jim CarrollA

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:11 PM

The old Highland tinkers had no relationship to Romany Gypsies, I remember the last of them on the roads of Argyll in the 1950's
They made tincraft, kettles and cans, from where came the "tinker" name, they also sold hardware from baskets and played pipes or fiddles(usually very badly)....they carried their homes on their backs and formed bow tents from ash and hazel saplings.
On the East Coast many were employed in seasonal agricultural work
They are long gone and sadly missed by those who still remember them.
They have been replaced by the scrap metal merchants, and cowboy builders who con the elderly all over this part of Scotland.
They now have the protection of Special Status Group, which keeps them above the law on most occasions.
Maccoll said it all in "Thirty foot trailer"

Like the "Working Class", the "Travellers" are a part of history

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 12:11 PM

Davie Stewart claimed to be descended from him. For sure, no one could sing the Rant with such conviction or authenticity. But then, I'm a bit of a fan...

http://research.culturalequity.org/get-audio-detailed-recording.do?recordingId=12484

*

I saw MacPherson's broken fiddle once on a childhood holiday in Scotland:

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/newtonmore/clanmacpherson/

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 09:59 AM

It,s true, I'm guilty as charged I've crossed a lot of markets in my time ..... yu 'onour

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 09:27 AM

From the Wiki notes on Jamie Macpherson -

Forasmeikle as you James McPherson, pannal [accused] are found guilty by ane verdict of ane assyse, to be knoun, holden, and repute to be Egiptian and a wagabond, and oppressor of his Magesties free lieges in ane bangstrie manner, and going up and down the country armed, and keeping mercats in ane hostile manner, and that you are a thief, and that you are of pessimae famae. Therfor, the Sheriff-depute of Banff, and I in his name, adjudges and discernes you the said James McPherson to be taken to the Cross of Banff, from the tolbooth thereof, where you now lye, and there upon ane gibbet to be erected, to be hanged by the neck to the death by the hand of the common executioner, upon Friday next, being the 16th day of November instant, being a public weekly mercat day, betwixt the hours of two and three in the afternoon....

So, we now know that Macpherson was an 'Egiptian', which as an offence in Scotland, but WTF was 'keeping mercats in ane hostile manner' all about? Did he go to ComparetheMarket.com for his legal aid or something?

And I win now because I totally ignore your last points.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 09:19 AM

XX, As has already been stated, get rid of the religious money grabbers and have the state run them seems like a good idea ..... however I have seen at first hand how organisation like English Heritage and the National Trust waste sheds loads of money.

For example some years ago an archaeological dig was taking place at Whitby Abbey. I drove past one Saturday afternoon and saw what I took to be cloches I presumed the multi-coloured cloths were protecting graves that had been excavated. I found later that they were an "art installation" and that the "artist" had been paid (I think) £25,000 !!

Personally I like the Irish approach, many ancient ruins are kept in order by the state and can be accessed free of charge, no ice-cream vendors, no tourist tat shop and you can wander round to your hearts content.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 09:00 AM

Should they get state support? Absolutely. Remove the religions and their pious idiocy that mars many a visit to a nice cathedral with calls to prayer which everyone's somehow obliged to respect. Here's a piece I did based around a field-recording I made in York Minster - they were turning the organ when the call to prayer came...

York : Prayer & Pilgrimage (aka Cursed Deference) 20th & 23rd December 2013

In Durham Cathedral, you're not even allowed to take photographs. A lot of cathedrals will charge £5 - £10 for a permit , York covers it in the entry free - valid for year if you gift aid it, whereas Norwich is free these days with voluntary donations, which I'm only too happy to give. I once had an unpleasant run-in with a cathedral usher in Bristol who told me I had to stop akin pictures because the service had started. 'But there's no one here!' I protested, which there wasn't apart from a small gathering in the quire. He demanded respect, but I heartily apologised and told told him I couldn't oblige.   

*

Don't forget, the term 'Gypsy' is a misinterpretation - a claim that they originally came from Egypt ,and were a lost tribe of the Jews who fled Pharaoh's wrath.

Seems this teacher took this legend a little too literally - thought that by teaching them about Ancient Egypt she was enriching their heritage.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 09:00 AM

And as I can't spell YOUR I now claim victory

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 08:58 AM

Level pegging Davie Boy ......... one more post and I'll have WON!!!!


Yippee, you're only hope is to get the thread deleted.

What should I do ........ get a blue plaque made or celebrate with a pint of Guinness ...... no contest really.

AND as a bonus not one post from his nibs since Sunday!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 08:52 AM

#, my response last night seems to have been lost in the ether.

You have a point about Mayan Temples, and we can add Kivas in the Southwest, ritualistic ball courts, the large burial mounds of the Mississippian nations, and totem poles honoring mythic ancestors of the Northwest Coast, to name only a few. But you must recall that when Columbus landed the first time in North America that he concluded the natives must be heathens because there were no church spires in view amongst their buildings. ;-) I didn't draw a line between all of the possibilities because the discussion was Western style churches, and in particular, something only slightly older than the Victorian churchyard as mentioned in a post above.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 08:33 AM

"Hell no, just remembering what you said once about the impact of TV on traditional Traveller culture."
That was about the destruction of the tradition - not about the tradition itself.
Don't forget, the term 'Gypsy' is a misinterpretation - a claim that they originally came from Egypt ,and were a lost tribe of the Jews who fled Pharaoh's wrath.
Nice to know that something I once said was remembered though!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,XX
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 08:30 AM

Should these parts of our heritage get state support ?

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 07:59 AM

Hmmm.... sounds like literacy snobbery to me!

Hell no, just remembering what you said once about the impact of TV on traditional Traveller culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 07:54 AM

Gollocks!!


http://www.wexfordweb.com/tintern.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 07:53 AM

"Hmmm....unless they've been watching a lot of TV."
Hmmm.... sounds like literacy snobbery to me! - it's a myth that if you don't read, you don't know anything.
The 'Egyptian' and Middle Eastern connection is quite common among Travellrs - Gordon Boswell spoke at length on it during the making of The Travelling People.
Travellers were said to have been first condemned to take to the roads as a punishment for making the nails for Christ's crucifixion. , and their part in building the pyramids is a common piece of folklore among then - read Borrow.
It's not beyond the realms of fantasy that itinerant tribes were sold into slavery - basically, the song is a boast on the well-proven fact that Travelleers are capable of turning their hands to anything to make a living, wherever they are.
Johnny was a Traveller activist who learned to read (sort of) shortly before we met him in 1973, while a guest of Her Maj in Winson Green Prison for his activities.
He wrote a chapter of Jeremy Sandford's book, 'Gypsies', which is how we got to know him.
He became an Irish representative on the European Gypsy Council, where he met Travellers from all over the world, while at the same time, collecting scrap in London.
Amazing what you can do when you set your mind to it - even if you only have the rudimentarys of reading - one amazing man.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 07:49 AM

tin't an abbey in Wexford at all. 'tis an abbey in Wales though...

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 07:43 AM

Rubbish Dave, Everyone knows Tintern Abbey is in County Wexford.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 07:29 AM

Fountains Abbey is one of my favourite places. The last time I was thereBBC were filming a documentary, Gregorian chant was wafting round the ruins, magical. Lovely music in a beautiful setting!

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 07:11 AM

I well remember traveling down to Chepstow by bus. I saw some old ruins and asked the Missus what they were. She said "Tintern Abbey", to which I replied "Well, if it'int an abbey it's some sort of church..."

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 07:02 AM

Heard about it, but never been. There's some nice pics here:

The Pinecone : a Visit to St Mary's Church, Wreay in Cumbria

The rounded apse and doorway show an awareness of the Romanesque, of which Kilpeck near Hereford is a classic example:

Church of St Mary and St David, Kilpeck

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 06:49 AM

Has anyone been to St Mary's Church in Wreay up in Cumbria. I recently read a book about Sara Losh who designed and oversaw the building of the church there between 1840 and 1842. It is supposed to be a brilliant designed using pine cones as one of her designs together with many other symbols instead of the usual religious icons.

It's on my list to visit this summer.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 06:47 AM

Not bad for a semi-literate Traveller though

There's a lot of wisdom in those lyrics, Jim - a clear agenda and an obvious awareness of both history & Kipling. So - semi-literate? Hmmm.... unless they've been watching a lot of TV.

I wonder, do any Travellers of your acquaintance still claim lineage to Ancient Egypt? I remember hearing from one young Traveller how their teacher, taking such things a tad too literally, once bought them packs (at some considerable expense on an already stained budget) on Ancient Egypt to better instruct them on their true - er - heritage. That was only about 20 years ago...

Kilping's an obvious imperialist, but despite his conservatism & patronising folksiness (The Land is a classic example of his vision of cultural continuity under feudalism despite many taking it to be some sort of socialist morality tale...) I think he's well aware of who the true savages are, however so mawkish his vision.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 06:24 AM

Sorry, Raggytash, I took your remark as absolutely io the button and didn't mean to sound critical of it. Clumsy sod, Shaw...

I have a special affection for Tintern Abbey, not least because the day we visited it had lovely light. In addition, the occasion was the very first time I got a senior citizen's concession for anything - even though the nice lady on the desk knew that my 60th wasn't until the next day. It felt like winning the lottery (though it saved me just 50p)! The day also managed to largely erase the memory of having Wordsworth's tedious poem shoved down my throat for 'O' Level English Lit!

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 06:19 AM

"Heady maybe, but historically wayward too"
Not bad for a semi-literate Traveller though
These songs, folk or otherwise, are seldom, if ever, historically correct - one of the verses says:

"We taught the Emperor Nero how to play the pipes,
Way back in the days of Rome"

All very tongue-in-cheek and expected to be taken this way - ah well

As far as I'm concerned, it's streets ahead of the Imperialist hymns were were taught in school about civilising the savages
Give us a break Blandy!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 06:09 AM

We are the Travelling people like the Picts and Beaker Folk,
The men in Whitehall think we're parasites, but 'Tinker' is the name.

All the jobs in the world we have done
From making Pharaoh's coffins, to building Birmingham

That's a very Kiplingesque reading of history, Jim - almost plagiarism! Heady maybe, but historically wayward too; both The Picts and The Beaker Folk were very much the unitary authorities of their time. In the case of the latter their dominion extended throughout most of the British Isles and was powerful enough to marshal the forces that built Silbury Hill or else drag the blue stones from Preseli Mountains to Salisbury Plain.

Slave labour? That's too simple a reading. Even your pal Ewan MacColl celebrated such municipal engineering projects as a source of proletarian pride, as he did here in his song abut the building of Blyth Power Station:

Blyth Power Station Record Breaker Part 1 (from 1.30)

As for Pharaoh's coffins - the techniques of their construction might baffle the most eminent of archaeologists today so I don't think we're talking itinerant labour here somehow...

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 05:51 AM

While I was thinking I also remembered visiting a few churches looking for the work of Robert (Mouseman) Thompson
but I can only remember finding them at Hubberholme. Must return to that search one day :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 05:42 AM

The lake district churches and chapels always amaze me. From the magnificence of Cartmel Priory right to tiny church of St Olaf in Wasdale. I am never sure which I like best. Usually depends which I am in at the time :-)

One a bit nearer home for me (about 40 minutes drive - about 5 minutes past the Station, Raggy) is St Leonards in Chapel-le-Dale. A beautiful little church with a stunning view of Ingleborough from the front porch. It also now contains a memorial to the many men women and children who lost their lives building the Settle to Carlisle railway and were buried in unmarked graves at St Leonards. Very poignant.

Anyone know why it would be listed in a Cumbria tourist site? As far as I know it has always been in Yorkshire but with, I think, a Lancaster postcode!

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 05:26 AM

The great cathedrals and friaries were built by the sweated labour of artisan peasants, not by any particular faith

I would think the sweated labour was of the architects, master masons, carpenters & labourers of a very particular faith and directed to the very particular purpose of the Church / State situation they were working for. There are hints of other influences - the 12th century Galilee Chapel of Durham Cathedral has very definite Islamic touches - but the dedication is most assuredly Catholic. Even the artisan peasants who did the grafting would have known only too well which side of their daily bread was buttered.

I'm inclined to agree with Raggytash when he says Stunning way to frighten the masses.. Even now we might look at Durham Cathedral (from as far away as ten miles as I recall from North Durham!) and shudder at its absolute dominance of the landscape. On the country boundary signs it says Country Durham - Land of the Prince Bishops - church & state in one chilling absolute authority dedicated utterly, and ruthlessly, to the upholding of the power structures that were integral to The One True Faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 05:04 AM

On one of the Misericords in Manchester Cathedral is a depiction of rabbits roasting a hunter!

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-manchester-cathedral-misericord-the-hunter-hunted-34985579.html

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 04:58 AM

"Point taken Jim"
Thanks Raggy
One of the first (and best) songs we recorded from Travellers was one made by Wexford Traveller, 'Pop's' Johnny Connors - a statement of pride covering their abilities historically;
The first two verses are:

We are the Travelling people like the Picts and Beaker Folk,
The men in Whitehall think we're parasites, but 'Tinker' is the name.

All the jobs in the world we have done
From making Pharaoh's coffins, to building Birmingham

Heady stuff
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 04:53 AM

Norwich Cathedral is a particular favourite of mine; York Minster likewise, though for me its generally about the details - the medieval minutiae so beloved of the Pre-Reformation Catholic Church and so readily promoted / dismissed as pagan by their latter-day Anglican custodians without a wider understanding of the essentially dualist theology of the time. Here's a one from the Norwich Cloister, though fully integral to the Passion sequence, viewed out of context it's easy to see why such notions might take hold, but we mustn't forget where we are, much less when...      

Norwich Cathedral, East Walk Cloister Boss

Ribaldry abounds too - in keeping with the clerical fascination for such things, didactic or otherwise, as in the songs collected in the celebrated Carmina Burana ms. One might, therefore, ponder the symbolic purpose of this delightful little scene from York Minster in which a monkey buggers a boar with what appears to be a piece of narwhale tusk:

Column Capital, North Choir Aisle, York Minster

Sadly, Christianity just doesn't seem to have the same sense of humour or humanity anymore!

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:55 AM

Point taken Jim, but shall we say they were originally dedicated to the catholic faith and were subsequently "stolen" by the protestant faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:51 AM

"from the catholic faith who originally built them."
The great cathedrals and friaries were built by the sweated labour of artisan peasants, not by any particular faith - that is what makes them so interesting - they are monuments to humanity, not to any particular God.
We've been lucky enough to be able to visit some of the beautiful temples built by heathens such as the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians, equally beautiful and spectacularly skillful and equally dripping with the blood of those who actually carried the hods.
Still never come down from our visits to Abu Simbal and Philae - never made the ones in South America.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:20 AM

Steve, I can assure you it was not a throw away line, it was a considered remark, and as for the great cathedrals, abbey, friaries of the UK a good majority were "stolen" from the catholic faith who originally built them.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 14 Jul 15 - 02:26 AM

The admiration of old churches runs well with me. At last, this debate is getting interesting.

I also love the ruined piles that old 'Enry gave us. A literal church v state situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 08:52 PM

Though I suppose they weren't always non-Catholic...

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 08:48 PM

In contrast to the Mersey Funnel, light, airy, undated and modern inside, the Anglican cathedral is over-large, morose, gloomy and charmless. At least, that was my response to it. I love the sunken garden alongside, however, a haven of peace in a big city, even if not exactly cheerful.

An interesting throwaway remark from Raggytash: If we're talking cathedrals Durham tops the list for me. Stunning way to frighten the masses.

A great cathedral has to strike a somewhat delicate balance between grandeur way beyond human scale (let's call it Godly magnificence) and not frightening people half to death via shock and awe. I've been in a good number of churches in ultra-Catholic Italy, large and small, and it often seems to me that the major earthly edifices of Catholicism are indeed frequently designed to terrify. Quite often, the internal architecture is crude and somewhat brutal, and the statuary and other iconography is chunky, unsubtle, dark and, well, looming and scary. Down in the crypt of the Duomo in Naples a large urn under a dedicated altar contains the bones, sticking proudly out of its top, of St Gennaro, martyred in the third century in La Solfatara crater at Pozzuoli. Well I really didn't need to see that! :-)

The non-Catholic cathedrals of Britain often strike that delicate balance a bit more successfully. You can be big and chunky, like St David's and Hereford Cathedrals and Bath Abbey, but still feel welcoming. ;-) if you're ever in Truro, the cathedral, all a bit of a derivative hotchpotch, can still surprise and, sort of, delight.