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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Dec 23 - 04:42 AM You can't read the Telegraph piece unless you subscribe (I'd sooner hack off the family jewels with a rusty machete, frankly), and the Guardian piece says what I quoted and very little more. In other words, your "links" are next to useless except to dyed-in-the-wool Torygraph aficionados. Instead, I recommend a listen to Paddy O'Connell giving Starmer a rather uncomfortable grilling on Broadcasting House on Radio 4 this morning. I'm trusting the capable readers of this thread to find that for themselves. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Backwoodsman Date: 03 Dec 23 - 03:46 AM He said a lot more than that, didn’t he? Here’s a link to the whole Guardian piece, And another to the Telegraph article, so people can read the whole thing and form their own impressions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Dec 23 - 07:35 PM Well, if anyone is still in doubt about Starmer's socialist credentials, he's blown them out of the water now by praising Thatcher. From the Sunday Telegraph (!) via the Guardian: Keir Starmer has praised Margaret Thatcher for effecting “meaningful change” in Britain in an article directly appealing to Conservative voters to switch to Labour. Writing in the Sunday Telegraph, the Labour leader said Thatcher had “set loose our natural entrepreneurialism” during her time as prime minister. I can scarcely bring myself to say more. Except that I've been bloody telling you about him, haven't I? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 27 Nov 23 - 09:12 AM > Like saying if pigs could fly air traffic control would need > to be modified to prevent accidents. It's slightly worse than that. The precise wording of the |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Nov 23 - 07:43 AM Legislation saying that if something currently impossible becomes possible other things that are currently impossible will be legal is rational enough, even if it's a bit nonsensical. Like saying if pigs could fly air traffic control would need to be modified to prevent accidents. It's not like passing a law saying that from now on throwing people over a cliff is safe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 19 Nov 23 - 09:00 AM UK's Online Safety Bill has become the Online Safety Act, complete with the section which states that the Forces of Law and Order shall be able to intercept any and all communications (the CSAM measure). The language carefully states that end-to-end encryption is not banned, but that intercepts shall be permitted once the technology exists to permit it. Since it's mathematically impossible for said technology to work as advertised, the Act has deemed (again) that black is white by legislative fiat. More at the The Shapeshifting Crypto Wars at the Lawfare site. Once I find the earlier article I've been paraphrasing, I'll post a link to that too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 15 Nov 23 - 05:04 PM Passing a law stating that Rwanda is safe forcibly reminds me of the Indiana Pi Bill. I commend the Wikipedia page to you, but can't resist:
Happily, a real mathematician was in the building on other business, he educated members of the Indiana Senate, the bill was duly blocked, and the newspapers in other States ceased heaping ridicule on the Indiana State Legislature. Sadly, in our case, the grownups seem to have deserted the House of Commons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 15 Nov 23 - 10:14 AM Herself's comment this morning: "That's typical of the Tories: no Plan B." My response: "Plan B is Plan A, shouted louder." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 13 Nov 23 - 11:27 AM This has been brewing for nearly a week: it seems it was the "tents" issue that pushed Rishi over the top, not Cruella being, erm, economical with the diplomacy about the marches (which just added the cherry). I await the front-page picture on this week's New European with interest, but it should feature Cruella's head poking out of a tent on the doorstep of Number Ten. For the record, at the time of typoing: * Cruella -> back benches * Cleverley -> Home Office * the boy Cameron -> Foreign Office * Theresa Coffey (sp?) -> back benches* ..... and more to follow. * Despite paying her respects to Larry the Cat on the way in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 10 Nov 23 - 05:56 AM For some reason, the original third verse in "All things bright and beautiful" tends to not appear in modern hymnals. It went:
Oh, and for completeness, my father used to leave in the verse ending
.... partly from simple mischief, and partly to see how many of the congregation engaged their brains while singing hymns. NB: No tents were harmed in the production of this comment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 25 Oct 23 - 10:49 AM > The first sentence warns you cannot read too much into a single by > election result. Then every following sentence makes exactly that > assumption. That's straight out of the "I'm not an unreasonable person but" book.* I heard many years ago that the trick is to read up to the "but", and take the inverse of what goes before it as the speaker's POV; the rest of the statement can then optionally be disregarded as too obvious to need to be stated. * It's a standard rhetorical technique. Fifty bonus points for correctly naming it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:37 AM I really should have just said what I really thought, rather than holding back just now |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:36 AM Noticed that that piece of toxic proverbial had provided more proof the ALL tories and their supporters are racists, why else would it spout on about homeless people being mostly foreigners. did it personally check all their passports? What is the betting that the tory **** are too tight fisted to buy homes out of their own pockets to give homeless people a place to live rent free until they get back on their feet, and then pay an affordable rent. Where are the high streets with the rows and rows of tents? I haven't seen any, or is it referring to camp sites? Maybe it believes that homeless people should report for just be wiped of the face of the earth so that it doesn't have to look at the problem its party and the pathetic excuse for human skin that votes for it have created just because it lowers the value of their properties. There is no room for neo-n****m in my society, so as far as I am concern, every tory voter should be deported to some tin pot, extreme right dictatorship with appalling human rights where they can live happily amongst their own kind, and we can get back to being a decent, caring welcoming society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 31 Oct 23 - 07:58 AM With the Covid enquiry well on the way, and the admission from political advisors that the government was so ill prepared, the least the pandemic could have done is waited until we had a competent government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Nov 23 - 06:51 PM Gosh, didn't think that last post of mine had taken. I meant to add this comment from Jess's letter, with which I couldn't agree more. "I can see no route where the current military action does anything but put at risk the hope of peace and security for anyone in the region now and in the future." Absolutely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Nov 23 - 06:40 PM Some Labour spokespeople I've heard today: Pat McFadden Yvette Cooper Keir Starmer Peter Kyle Rachel Reeves David Lammy Barry Gardiner (and others) All calling for no ceasefire. In other words, carry on the slaughter but do listen to our very mild cautions. All members of Labour Friends Of Israel. Then Jess Phillips. Feminist, anti-Corbynite. She left the front bench today in protest against the anti-ceasefire stance. She's also a member of Labour Friends of Israel. My opinion of her has soared. A real humanitarian. Kudos, Jess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Nov 23 - 05:52 PM "I can also say we are allowed just one US political thread so keep your politics out of it please but I agree with free speech with all its curses and benefits. Let's keep your personal animosities out of it. Comparing US reports to UK reports is sometimes different." But the trouble is that you wade in but have absolutely no desire to discuss our politics. The simple reason for that is that you have not studied our politics and your posts show no understanding of it. By all means join in. By which I mean, join in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Nov 23 - 05:48 PM Sunak is entering a minefield. His daft tough talk today reeks of his need to react sharply to the idiot Braverman, which he doesn't need to do. He ignored a mass of evidence from Israel and UNHCR that Rwanda does not comply with agreements as to how asylum seekers should be treated, and it's clear that "safe country" does not apply to Rwanda. That's one thing. But Starmer. As an opposition leader, as the leader of a party that's supposed to put ordinary people first, in contrast to self-serving Tories, why can't he call for a ceasefire? It's just a call. It's not a demand. It won't happen just because he calls for it. It would be a symbolic call only. It would, though, put clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. Instead, he clings to Sunak's coat tails. He runs scared of Biden should he beat Sunak in the election. He is not a leader. He's a follower. And his stance on the conflict is splitting the party. As any fule no, split parties always lose elections. So the next election is going to come down to who's more split, Labour or Tories. Sir K, it really doesn't need to be that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Nov 23 - 09:52 AM I watched the whole of the Supreme Court ruling this morning. What struck me was the fact that Rwanda's blatant failings to abide by previous agreed understandings on how asylum seekers should be treated, particularly with Israel, as well as a mass of solid evidence on this from the UN refugee agency, seem to have been ignored by this government. They were pursuing a doomed policy that has already cost taxpayers many millions of pounds. I feel like suing them to get my bloody money back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Nov 23 - 09:09 AM It's Thérèse f'Coffey, Filk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Nov 23 - 08:22 AM We are allowed just one UK political thread. Keep your politics out of it, please. I hate Cameron. Hubris led to brexit, a terrible misjudgement. The architect of austerity ("we're all in it together"). Very dodgy lobbying. NHS starting to implode on his watch. Hardly any growth. Explosion of zero-hours contracts. Shat on the public sector via pay freeze after pay freeze. He did one excellent thing: he completely nobbled that shabby bunch of naive opportunists, the Lib Dems. However, he's a big hitter. He scrubs up well. He's not far right. From a Tory point of view, this isn't at all a bad move. Stodgy Starmer beware. And, after her showing on the Today programme this morning, for God's sake keep Rachel Reeves out of the spotlight. Could do worse than shutting Yvette up while he's at it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Nov 23 - 07:03 AM How would you know? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Nov 23 - 06:31 AM Cameron, a man who should never have been allowed anywhere near Downing Street ever again, fer chrissake... Put him in that big barge all on his own and float the bloody thing off to Rwanda. Anyone got a spare ball and chain? Anyone contemplating that he could well be the next Tory leader? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Nov 23 - 07:29 PM It's the fake equivalence between 'protesters and counter-protesters" that gets me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Nov 23 - 02:12 PM Thanks for that, Nigel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Nov 23 - 06:48 AM Sunak last night condemned the “violent, wholly unacceptable” scenes. He said both the far right and “Hamas sympathisers” had been responsible. Liar. There were no violent scenes on a march of around half a million people (a bit of difference-splitting there). There was serious violence at the cenotaph, caused by a bunch of right-wing extremists. Out of that half-million, the police are looking for a handful of people who might have had pro-Hamas regalia. Sunak went on to condemn "antisemitic chants," by which I assume he meant "from the river to the sea", which is not an antisemitic chant. It was one of the largest marches ever in this country and it was entirely peaceful, but our scumbag prime minister couldn't resist making a false equivalence in order to apportion blame for the trouble in London yesterday. Both he and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire. Make no bones about it: they are simply giving the nod to Israel to carry on with the killing. Despicable. There they both were this morning at the cenotaph, honouring the dead yet refusing to call for a halt to the killing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Nov 23 - 04:27 PM I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Nov 23 - 06:11 PM From a Guardian letter responding to suggestions that the marches on Armistice weekend should be called off, or even banned: ...I shall be marching for a small boy, surrounded by siblings, standing in the ruins of his neighbourhood whose cry, “We’ve done nothing wrong”, has so much more power and honesty than UK politicians who seek to divide us with their claims that the marches are “hate-filled” or “disrespectful”. I'm not big on hate, but I could so easily come to hate these sanctimonious, mealy-mouthed hypocrites who appear on our screens to criticise the marches straight after we've just watched the nightly routine of the horrors being visited on the civilians of Gaza who have done nothing wrong. The people who we commemorate on Armistice day died so that those of us who come after can enjoy democracy, our human rights and freedom of expression. A plague on the houses of those hypocrites. And please don't tell me that I'm not criticising Hamas or being fair to Israel. I've done that on every possible occasion in these threads, but my current gaze is on the plight of the benighted civilians of Gaza. That little boy is just one of thousands of children living or dying or being maimed for over a month in conditions that no child should have to endure, and we seem to have decided to be no more than spectators. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Nov 23 - 09:32 AM Well read it and see. I'd put it at dead-centre Labour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Nov 23 - 05:28 AM Sorry, Nigel - I don't know where the 'ell that 'l' went...:-( |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:49 PM Try having a read of it, Nige. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Nov 23 - 06:34 AM The only reason I will (extremely reluctantly) hope for at least two Labour terms after the next election is that Braverman is not unlikely to be the next Tory leader. The woman is the nearest thing to being a true fascist we have in Parliament. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Nov 23 - 07:03 PM "David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary who visited the region last week, said that the “number of dead Palestinian civilians and children is shocking” as he called on Israel to take further steps to stop a “humanitarian catastrophe”. He said that Israel “must uphold international law” and also warned of violence in the West Bank." Talk about soft words. Why couldn't he say that Israel has been breaching international law for four weeks. Yes it's shocking. Yeah, David, how did we ever know that before you told us. Thanks for telling us what we already know in spades, David. Yes Israel should uphold international law. Thing is, Israel never does. But Lammy, a member of Labour Friends of Israel (aka a man in the pocket of the pro-Israel lobby) can't criticise Israel. His party leader will make sure of that. In a word, bollocks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Oct 23 - 03:30 PM Starmer is wriggling. He's trying to shut up the critics in his party by "criticising" Israel, a little bit. But still no ceasefire call. No principles on show here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM The lame-duck excuse I keep hearing from people like Starmer (and lots of Israeli big-shots and western leaders) is that we shouldn't have a ceasefire because we know that bastards like Hamas wouldn't stick to it anyway. Well blow me down. No giving peace a chance round 'ere, then... The reason Starmer and Sunak won't call for a ceasefire has nothing to do with that. They are both in the pockets of the US, and the reason the US won't call for a ceasefire is that it's in the pocket of Israel and the pro-Israel lobby. Call a ceasefire. Release all the hostages. Call off the collective punishment. Release the 5000 Palestinians who are in jail in Israel, a thousand or more held without charge, women, children, the lot. Then sit down and talk about it. If Paisley and McGuinness could do it, anyone can do it. I'm bloody sick of seeing the same outrages on me telly every night. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Oct 23 - 10:49 AM The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie, is exceptionally critical of Starmer's stance on Gaza-Israel. I suppose the conflict could have receded into the background by the next election, but, if it hasn't, and he maintains his one-sided stance on the issue, he could lose an awful lot of Muslim votes, many of them up in northern towns which he has to win or win back. He's also at odds with the SNP and large numbers of Labour MPs as well as the mayors of London and Manchester. I note that Starmer is a member of Labour Friends of Israel, along with people such as Yvette Cooper, the disreputable Margaret Hodge, David Lammy, Wes Streeting and Emily Thornberry. And that 76% of the electorate want a ceasefire. I know it's not just about votes, but can we have at least just a bit of principle and humanity from a party that likes to think it's socialist? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Oct 23 - 06:51 AM A below-the-line comment about Starmer in the Guardian: "If you say Israel 'has the right' to withhold power and water from Gaza then, a few days later, following a consequent outcry, say ‘it is not and never has been my view that Israel had the right to cut off water, food, fuel or medicines,’ you are revealing three things about yourself. You have appalling judgement, you are dishonest and you are a reactive, rather than a proactive, leader." I couldn't agree more. Starmer is the wrong leader for Labour and he'd be the wrong leader for this country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Nov 23 - 04:43 AM The inappropriately-named James Cleverly also seen darkening the doorstep of No. 10 this morning. More barrel-bottom scraping, methinks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Backwoodsman Date: 05 Nov 23 - 06:10 AM An excellent poem from Paul Cookson, on FB today. Says it all… ”Daily poem - Suella Braverman, once again the inspiration ... unfortunately LIFESTYLE CHOICE I could have escaped to the country I could have lived by the sea I could have chosen anywhere But this is the place for me Handy for all amenities In that I can rejoice This tent in a high street doorway That’s my lifestyle choice Yes to the freezing nights Yes to the driving rain And if I had to choose once more I’d choose the same again Yes to constant hunger Cold and always moist This tent in a high street doorway That’s my lifestyle choice I love my cardboard notice Asking for your charity I love the fact I can rely On other people’s sympathy These things you don’t understand While stuck in your Rolls Royce This tent in a high street doorway That’s my lifestyle choice This is not a style of life That I would recommend To my worst enemy Never mind a friend But you hear what you want to hear You cannot hear my voice This tent in a high street doorway That’s my lifestyle choice Your ignorance – deliberate Like the heartless views you voiced Indicative of where you are And your lifestyle choice Poem 1195 Sunday 5th November 2023” |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Rain Dog Date: 13 Nov 23 - 11:10 AM Our Prime Minister is not the same as your President. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Nov 23 - 01:07 PM "Both he (the Prime Minister) and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire" Meanwhile, in other news in Wales: The (Labour led) Senedd has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and Israel. The motion tabled in the Welsh parliament by Plaid Cymru urged for an end to "the appalling attacks on innocent civilians". Welsh government ministers abstained from the vote - but Labour backbenchers were given a free vote on the motion and on an amendment tabled by the Conservatives. From: Here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Nigel Parsons Date: 07 Nov 23 - 08:25 AM I'm sure that if I read 'Labour List' I would find it leftie even if not extremely so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Nigel Parsons Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:30 PM "The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie," The title alone would suggest that it is 'leftie', although possibly not sufficiently so for those with more extreme views. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: Doug Chadwick Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:20 AM Cameron's post is minor The Foreign Secretary is a senior position in the UK government. Along with the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Home Secretary, it is one of the four Great Offices of State. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: DMcG Date: 18 Nov 23 - 04:14 AM BBC Four recently transmitted a programme made in 1998 called The Fifty Years War: Israel and the Arabs. It is well worth watching for the background to these events. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: DMcG Date: 15 Nov 23 - 01:00 PM I have posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating: So the new brilliant scheme is to get Parliament to say Rwanda is safe. Not to address the Supreme Court's judgement it is not, nor to ensure it is, nor to press Rwanda to be safer, but simply to call it so. Very Humpty Dumpty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: DMcG Date: 11 Nov 23 - 11:54 AM It is looking like the pro-Palestine march in London has been very peaceful, despite the efforts of some anti-march protestors. Now the remaining risk is what happens as people try to leave the march and head home. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: DMcG Date: 07 Nov 23 - 12:50 PM Damn! Forgot to close the link, and it seems to bring up adverts anyway. Try searching for the latest opinion polls and Mark Park had a table of about 8 of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: DMcG Date: 07 Nov 23 - 12:48 PM I have no idea who Mark Park is, but if this is accurate it suggests that, despite all the claims Labour is tearing itself apart over the IreIsrael-Palestine, it has little or no effect on their lead. These surveys seem to have taken place before Cummings and co were questioned by the covid enquiry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3 From: DMcG Date: 05 Nov 23 - 11:46 AM DIves and Lazarus “Thou are none of mine, brother Lazarus, Lying begging at my door, No meat, no drink, will I give thee, Nor bestow upon the poor.” Some things don't change much. |
