more session rudeness

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:50 PM

Radio 2 Folk & Acoustic's 'Virtual Session'

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM

maybe there should be cool as folk knickers as well.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:45 PM

Who's knickers would you like? Perhaps they could be auctioned to the highest bidder to help finance the T-shirts.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:41 PM

What about the knickers?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:37 PM

yes he was theSnail lol

GUEST,Squeezy Sessionizer

mines a pint of dragon stout :D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:35 PM

and some my fellow musicians of a certain age are totally and completely paranoid that the music will die without them.

Seems pretty healthy where I am. Last Sun night the Irish session I go to had a busy night. I believe there were 25 instruments playing at one point.

The youngest is someone just starting who I think is 16/17. The oldest, I'd guess (I don't go around taking notes of ages) around 60 but as I said above, I'd guess at 47 I'm older than most present. For skills that people here might recognise, we had two who are on the Newcastle degree. Then we had some who play in groups (blasted pro/semi pros!), . Then there were "ordinary mortals" like myself.

I don't see age being an issue, people in awe of one another or any of the stuff that tends to rattle round these Mudcat threads. I see a bunch of people all out for a good night of playing music together.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM

A thought struck me during my bangers and mash...

I assumed this "It was 'The big session' and yes, it was the only session" was from the OP (though now I look it doesn't actually say so). But if it was, then the many suggestions above that he should have just gone to look for another session don't really apply. In an ideal world, if you're 'running' the only session in town, then you'll have been warned that it will probably attract a mixed crowd, so you can proceed accordingly. But perhaps these guys were not warned. Another lesson for the organisers, perhaps, if this is where the problem lay. (Does anyone know them well enough to point them at this thread? If I was them, I'd want to know about it). Tom

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:32 PM

prehaps mudcat cold sponser cool as folk t-shirts? since young people are poor? sponsership money can be paid in pints?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:23 PM

the soapbox is probably worth more, I'll keep that instead.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:21 PM

Ruth Archer said, " and have given myself a decade to learn properly"

A decade eh, now let me see, that would make me *counts on fingers* Well that wouldn't be too bad... ;-)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:20 PM

Might I suggest that all of those who seem to be hungering for Tee Shirts purchase Mudcat Tees, if only to support the soapbox you all seem to be shouting from. They're $15

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

I cannot tell a lie. It was him wot done it!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:15 PM

"Heck, I might, in my early old age take up the melodeon (still thinking about that one). :-D "

Go for it! I bought mine when I turned 40 last year, and have given myself a decade to learn properly.

Judging from my progress and commitment so far, there's going to be a LOT of cramming when I turn 49! LOL!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,"cool as folk" brigade
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:14 PM

If you enjoyed the jingle bells it was. If you didn't it was the tuba player from gog magog molly

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:12 PM

Ruth Archer, quite rightly, says, " The thing that is bloody hilarious about this thread is how many other mudcat discussions are devoted to the white-knuckled fear of the tradition dying out - why?

Fear, cold, deep down fear. Letting go, passing the flame. To be honest with you it's all abit embarrassing, I mean I'm now the same age as Sandy Denny would have been had she lived (you do the maths)and some my fellow musicians of a certain age are totally and completely paranoid that the music will die without them.

To be honest again, I've met and played with some of the younger musicians whom I am totally in awe of and have learned some great bowing and fingering technique from (fiddle and mandolin) Heck, I might, in my early old age take up the melodeon (still thinking about that one). :-D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:11 PM

I still want to kow if that tuba player was the one who plyaed Jingle Bells all night at Towersey.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM

I just took a rhubarb crumble out of the oven. Anyone want some?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:08 PM

And you wonder why you never see anyone under 50 at your clubs...
hmm I'm 47 and at one of the sessions I go to I'd say I'm one of the older ones.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Squeezy Sessionizer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM

^^ @ FolkIsCool re tuba player ;o)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Squeezy Sessionizer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:59 PM

Yeah he is.

I used to get annoyed at older players playing too quickly when I was learning - so I learned to catch up... it was tiring but was (and very much remains) a lot of fun.

I know this has been said but the guys would have been mortified to think they'd offended or excluded anyone - but they do get a little over-excited at times. Next time go talk to them - they don't usually bite too hard.

SSxx

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:59 PM

The speed some older players went at is too much for me... Sean McGuire

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil J
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM

A tankard of perhalderide for me. This thing is off it's head

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:56 PM

gin and elderflower, barman.

The thing that is bloody hilarious about this thread is how many other mudcat discussions are devoted to the white-knuckled fear of the tradition dying out - why? Because there aren't enough young people in folk.

So along come a bunch of great young musicians - who only turn up after seeing themselves maligned by people they've never even met - and proceed to be arrogant and daft and take the piss and behave like - guess what? - young people.

Much outrage and pounding of keyboards and sucking of gums ensues: "How dare they be rude and have a laugh and not take us seriously? We are older than them! We know better! We deserve respect!"

And you wonder why you never see anyone under 50 at your clubs...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

Bottle of Cider on ice for me please.

...and a bucket of water for all those who object to those younger musicians who may have played faster than they appreciated in the past.

also a lambrini for the tuba player because he knows he's a chav!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:52 PM

Pint of Summer Lightning please. (at least that's what I have been drinking lately in one session I go to)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:50 PM

Well, if that includes me, a coffee would be great.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Squeezy Sessionizer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:47 PM

Hang on a sec folks...

I think it's my round. What are you all having?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM

if there's a gap

... and you feel up for starting a tune off, get in quick (and then for me, hope others take up the tune)! At least that's often how it is in ones I go to.

---
As for being asked, the one thing I don't want is to wind up with is a solo. I can't handle it and really I am a sort of second row player.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:36 PM

Yeah probably Tom lol :D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:29 PM

Sam reply still applies

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:28 PM

Are we there yet?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:28 PM

response to;
From: Def Shepard - PM
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:16 PM

Bert said," Get over your pompous idea of what the protocols in the folk world should be..."

I admit that I actually said that and he was quoting me DS... sorry

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:26 PM

"you really have to see these guys in action"

I probably have, Houston. I probably have!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:26 PM

response to;
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss - PM
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:15 PM

Yeah, am sorry Tom, just using it as an example as I was brought up in mixed song and instrument sessions as well as strictly instruments or strictly no instruments.

They all use similar formats

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:21 PM

response to:
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss - PM
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:10 PM

I agree Tom, but I know these guys and they will captivate and cheer up an audience. I saw these guys play at Chippenham alongside some very experienced session players that I've known since my head came up to the knee of a grasshopper and they were very welcomed in the session and everyone had fun. It seems that only one person here has complained and loads jumped on the bandwagon.

I just hope that Charley's experience hasn't put people off going to the Big Session festival next year cos I would love to go if CAS are gonna be there :D you really have to see these guys in action, they are quality personified :)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Squeezy Sessionizer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:19 PM

Bert, who gave you the keys to the rule book? The session I grew up with allows anyone to play anytime they like, if there's a gap (with attention being paid to any player who looks like they'd quite like to lead a tune, of course)... a "jam" doesn't exist in the folk world - that's something that jazz (*pheugh*) and blues players indulge in.

Making everyone have a turn puts players under pressure - I have seen people get quite flummoxed when the session "leader" suddenly points their finger at someone and expects them to churn out a tune on demand. Sessions are organic and should be allowed to evolve, and at the risk of repeating what the more sensible people on here are saying, if the music belongs to a tradition you don't relate to, or the playing style is 1) foreign to you or 2) too difficult for you to play, then how hard is it to wander off to the next session, or indeed start a new one??

Anyway, I've been irritated by this band of upstarts for years and years. It's because I don't stand a hope of keeping up with them for quite a lot of the time. But by playing with musicians like these highly talented individuals (who incidentally only really see each other at a select number of festivals over the course of a season) my own playing has been pushed really hard and allowed me to take the sort of massive strides I'd have had to pay a lot of money for otherwise.

Breakneck Horizonto anyone? Or maybe the classic Sir Sidney Smith's Race? *choke* sorry, I was forgetting. That might just be FUN!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:16 PM

Bert said," Get over your pompous idea of what the protocols in the folk world should be..."

It sounds to me like your 'protocols' are somewhay pompous as well. You know the saying about people who live in glass houses I'm sure

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:15 PM

Err here we go again with the word problems.

'Session' mostly means tunes not songs, Houston. If only it always did!

If the event doesn't have 'sing' or 'song' in the title most would assume that most people who've come are not there for singing or songs (not then, anyway), and proceed accordingly.

Tom

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:10 PM

Tune sessions do tend to be 'caveat emptor,' but if you've been booked (paid or unpaid) rather than going as a punter, you're wearing a different hat. The organiser is counting on you to try to make as many people as happy as you can, because he wants them to come back next year. This doesn't mean giving everyone a go - in fact that's very rare in tune sessions - but it does mean smiling a bit and explaining what's happening and why.

Most tune people are very friendly. Concentrating hard on playing can result in some stern faces - but then this isn't a performance, so. High skill sessions are also not as common as you might think, so there's an understandable tendency to seize the moment when it does all fire off nicely. That said, the leaders can still include people with a bit of chat and a few well-known slow ones, and I personally feel I should when I've been placed in that role.

I've been more influenced by comments from the band here than by reports of what may or may not have happened (though given the early posts I can understand why they felt under the cosh).

In the end it's really down to the festival organiser to manage the expectation/experience equation well if they want to build up that side of things.

Tom

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:51 PM

"The protocols are very simple and have been very clearly defined for generations."

No they havent Bert. There maybe folk club or session etiquette but that is subjective and governed by those that either establish it or in a lot of cases whatever the general consensus pushes for. They all vary from region to region or if you want to go into real folk terms from culture to culture!

Those protocols are your ideals and you are closing a session off to those that may in your mind oppose it!

Some sessions that my dad ran would go around the room in a set direction and he would continue to ask each time those who don't feel confident to sing. Other sessions you have to put your name down on the door, others would just perform and there would be no-one in charge and people would just jump in whenever there was a chance... some sessions feel informal and some feel like you cant even breath incase the noise put someones nose out of joint!!!

Folk is the most diverse genre and includes cultures all over the planet and yet you seem to believe that you can impose protocols!!! that's like saying that Microsoft can make the only computer OS :s

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Jess A
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:47 PM

not sure if that was addressed to what I'd said, WLD? I agree, if you are specifically booked, as a guest, to lead a session then feeling shy is no excuse for not trying to make others feel included.

Not sure the same sense of responsibility is attached if you've been booked, as a guest, to go and swell numbers in a session (led by somebody else). I admit if I was booked myself under those circumstances I'd still feel like I ought to be being responsible about it but then again I have a tendency to behave like a mother hen under lots of other circumstances too and that can bring its own problems :)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:38 PM

PS Don't try using that line if they've booked you as the guest. it doesn't work in those circumstances.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:38 PM

It's like hearing your parents fighting all the time in the next room, wondering if they're hitting each other yet. Then they come out and explain that they weren't really fighting, they really love each other and were mostly kidding around. It makes you just want to leave and go to a place where people can be kind to one another without having crockery sail past their heads.

I know-- we don't have to read the thread. But if you host sessions you might think that they could actually be some info in here, among all the shite to wade through-- and it turns out that there is. But I would never link a friend to it, for the info, because this thread is not a resource: it's a nasty set of text messages now preserved for all time.

~Susan

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Bert
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:35 PM

...yes I think it's usually seen as good form to encourage shyer or less confident people to join in, but plenty of people who are musically confident are socially less so...

Very well put Jess.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Jess A
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:26 PM

I was thinking the same, Maryrrf. Shame that evrybody can't be just a tad more friendly and polite.

Interesting point from Bert though cos I've played in UK sessions for a long time and I'm not really familiar with his definitions - where I tend to go, most people sit down and I've never heard of anything referred to as a 'jam'. To me, sessions are when everybody joins in together. Singarounds are where you all take turns. If there's a PA involved then I guess it's an open mic although I've never actually partaken in one of them. Etiquette in what I think of as sessions is a delicately balanced thing - yes I think it's usually seen as good form to encourage shyer or less confident people to join in, but plenty of people who are musically confident are socially less so and it can be harder than it looks to break the ice with somebody you don't know. Lots of sessions I go to whether at festivals or pubs do not have a leader at all, but then again some do. Some leaders take that to mean inviting people to play and establishing some sort of order and maybe even taking turns. Some leaders will just sit back and let it all happen but will strike up a tune every time the whole thing falters to silence, just to keep some momentum going.

My take on the whole thing - there's a lot of geographical and personal variation in what makes a session, and all you can really do as a newcomer to any of them is sit back a while and try to get a feel for how this particular one is working - and if you don't like the feel of it, to quietly wander off and start one that's more to your taste elsewhere.

To all those who've stated that this thread has put you off the idea of UK sessions - please don't think that they're all full of upset and antagonism! In my experience that's pretty rare! And if any of you are ever passing through Sheffield, PM me and I'll try and direct you towards one that might suit your tastes, as we're lucky here to have a whole range so there's bound to be something for pretty much everybody...

all the best
Jess

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

Well I tell you something - now this is in depth analysis from s floor singer of many years standing ((theres never quite enough room for me a seat).

There comes a magic moment somewhere between the second and third verse (the first verse - natural politenes gets in the way, the second verse - you may notice a slight rictus of displeasure float across the features of several men in fisherman's smocks) HOWEVER!

The start of the third verse is generally when you finally realise you are about as welcome as a fart in a space suit - any other place on the earth's surface would be more hospitable, and you should have a strategic withdrawal planned.

A line that sometimes works for me is - 'Parts of the next line contain adult material....... and as we are before the watershed, I must abandon you to your more simple minded pleasures. Keep it folk! That's what i say! Good night...... and f--k off!'

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:13 PM

"You're not really very nice are you?"

It was a very harsh statement, I admit. I've had enough of all these people getting all upset for no real good reason accept that their idea of what folk should or shouldn't be.

Folk is for all people, it is music that can be played by anyone on any instrument that they want to try and play. We are all individuals that have tried to keep a tradition alive, one that was obliterated by TV, amplified music storage devices etc. just over 100 years ago the pubs would thrive on people entertaining themselves in their untrained musical talents.

A session is an individual thing and generations and regions alter it slightly as it goes along... to add 'protocols' to it or 'rules' stops it from being folk! like the oxymoron of folk degrees... it's all silly.

The one thing that I thought separated us from the moronic pop movement is that we all love the music and care about each other. It's obvious that this thread has attracted those that want to shape folk to their ideals and unfortunately that removes it from being folk any longer!!!

I am sorry for any harsh comments but I am getting fed up with people attacking other people because their opinion doesn't match theirs. We are all entitled to our opinion and I am sorry if some people dont think I'm very nice but I still love and care about you all because you are who you are and that is beautiful.

If we were all the same then life would have no forums to banter on and this one can have the potential of being great if people only said... hey, I may be wrong but... or , in my opinion I think...

instead we have a load of people going, this is how it is and how it should be and others should learn that!!! just get over yourselves... your ego belongs at Sony BMG or another axe yielding company that doesn't care about what people want!

Sorry for the rant but come on guys... we all love each other don't we?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Maryrrf
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:54 AM

Everybody who has read this thread has certainly gotten a nasty dose of Mudcat rudeness. Don't know why I bothered, it's been depressing.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: wiggy
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM

Hey it happens all over the world.
If you cant join in on one session go to a different room in the same pub there's going to be somthing different going on there.

it happened in Middlewich last week and so we started in a different room where evryone got a go.

Don't be put off get stuck in.

I was part of a small group of friends asked to lead a session, the front bar was full so we ran one in the restaraunt. Just a little more organized.
Have fun.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Bert
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:38 AM

...Get over your pompous idea of what the protocols in the folk world should be...

The protocols are very simple and have been very clearly defined for generations.

Here they are again for those of you who haven't got it yet.

1. If you are up on stage with the mic then you get to sing or play for your allotted time.

2. If everyone is sitting down together then it is a session, eveyone gets a turn, and the shy ones get encouraged to perform.
If you jump in and take somebody else's turn then you have the morals of a petty thief and if you are remembered it will be only to avoid you next time.

3. If everyone is standing up then it is a jam and everyone joins in together.