Is it Ok to sing from a song book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM

In my younger days I did plenty of singing after climbing. I belonged to a university climbing club, and after a day on the hills we would all go to the pub and sing - folk songs as well as specific climbing songs. These were all group singalongs with everyone joining in the whole song, chorus and verse, but there was no book. Many of the climbing songs I've never seen written down. New club members picked up the songs by singing them.

Sadly, this tradition seems to have died out. The pubs we went in have been modernised and now try to attract a less scruffy and better-behaved clientele (for which I can't really blame them). It's a pity that younger climbers don't know the songs, although I do my best to keep them going when the opportunity arises.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 07:21 PM

It is not OK when the original group if they are still in the majority of a session really hate it and express their feelings and put it in writing when they advertise. It is not OK when a main session at a camp or event is set up for book users and they leave that session and impose books on those who really do not like them and are not in the process of using them. It is OK if you set the group up yourself on your own terms..of course it is OK and be firm with people who want to change you if you like it that way. Do not impose the books on people who hate them and you had better assume that alot of people hate them. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 07:08 PM

It's OK Howard J. I guess many others have made similar blunders here on the Mudcat forum, including myself.

Perhaps we should combine the two threads and call it: "is it Ok to sing from a 'UK Climbing' song book?"
That would certainly confuse people and perhaps attract them to the thread out of pure intrigue.

I can't, however, imagine people rock climbing and singing from a song book at the same time. That does boggle the imagination and 'Extreme Sports' comes to mind!

Although I do remember once mountain walking with a school party (in my younger days) up the Snowdon Horseshoe in North Wales (three point climbing) and one of our teachers singing "The hole in the elephant's bottom" song whilst we were climbing up the mountain.................!!

But I must confess... he wasn't singing from a song book at the time!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:47 PM

Genie, I admit I did not go back through all the posts before making that claim. I was relying on my memory, which I have already admitted is not infallible. Nevertheless I can definitely recall one poster who uses a book who has a repertoire of more than 50 songs. Another justified using a book by saying they would not repeat a song during a year.

However it would be wrong of me to suggest that either of these are poor singers - perhaps they are among those who can sing well from a book. I phrased my original comment poorly - what I should have said is that there are singers who use books who set themselves these targets, and also there are some who admit to being poor singers.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:40 PM

Snail,

Your club clearly takes a laissez-faire approach

No, it does not. We operate a considered policy of giving everybody the opportunity to perform.

It sounds like much the same thing to me, but that's just semantics. However you describe it, your policy is to allow anybody the opportunity to perform, so whether or not they are any good is not a consideration.

We have been doing so for quite a long time. OK, we get the occasional dud ... Most results vary between acceptable and wonderful.

Fine, but if your policy is to allow everyone to sing then that outcome is entirely dependent on your good fortune in having a pool of good singers to draw on. Of course, it is possible that this high standard deters poorer singers from asking to perform and so helps to maintain that standard. But what would happen if you were faced with an influx of poor singers who were not deterred? Presumably under your policy you would allow them to sing.

It should have been perfectly obvious that my final comment was about such clubs which allow poor singers to perform, not about your own club.

But you are accusing us of allowing poor singers to perform.

I was accusing you of no such thing - I have no knowledge of your club other than what you have told us, and I have no reason to disbelieve that. My final comment was an entirely separate point - if you took it to refer to your club then I apologise. Perhaps I should have made it in a separate post, ( which would probably ended up on a completely different forum if my recent attempts are anything to go by :) )

Nevertheless, that could be the effect of your policy - if a poor singer were to ask to perform you would let them. Or have I misunderstood?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:21 PM

Well, Liz, if a comedian, or any other entertainer for that matter, can make reading out of a book an essential part of his or her schtick, that's fine. But that's something different. After all, Victor Borgé's famous routine where he reads out of a book—and puts in his "phonetic punctuation"—is hilarious! But methinks if a comedian had to read out of a notebook because he couldn't remember his routine, that's a jackass of a whole different hue.

####

I agree with Howard Jones about memorization being a skill that has to be learned. And I use essentially the same routine that he outline at 09 Feb 10 - 06:46 a.m.

I find that I'm in the habit of running the words of songs I've learned, both recently and long ago (even songs I've sung a thousand times) through my mind at otherwise unoccupied times such as when waiting for a bus or just before I fall asleep. This little habit keeps songs I may not have sung recently fresh and ready to go at any time. Going over the words of songs you're in the process of learning just before you go to sleep is particularly good. Put the old subconscious to work.

####

And speaking of "memory traps:"   one evening, Walt Robertson was singing "The Fox," a song he could have done in his sleep. That was the problem. He sorta dozed off.

One verse starts, "He ran 'til he came to a great big pen," and further on in the song, "He ran 'til he came to his cozy den." Walt started the song, then went to sleep, putting the song on automatic. Then, when he arrived at "He ran 'til he came to—," suddenly he woke up, and didn't know where he was in the song! "Pen?" "Den?"

He confessed to the audience, "I'm lost, folks! Where the heck am I?" Someone who knew the song fed him the appropriate word or two, and he went ahead with the song.

At the end, he shook his head with a chuckle and said, "And there I was, with the words all dangling down-o!"

Big laugh! And another round of applause!

So screwing up is not a total disaster. It depends on how you handle it.

Like I say:   take a chance! Try working without a net. Life should be an adventure!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM

Ron, I agree about the leader (generally) not needing the song sheet just because the group may need it to sing along.   But if the song has a lot of lyrics or many verses, it can be helpful for the leader to have the same lyric sheet to glance at as the group is using. This can prevent the leader omitting a verse or mixing up their order - which might be fine for a song such as "The Water Is Wide" as a solo but can be very confusing in a sing-along.
Of course, for the leader, a simple cue card with a sequence of "fist words" or "key words" could serve the same purpose.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM

Whoops! Thanks for pointing that out, Soldierboy. Not only the wrong thread but the wrong forum! That should have gone to UKClimbing.com.

Sorry

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:05 PM

Well, I've been known to sing "Keep you eye upon the throttle and your hand upon the rail" more than once or twice, but that's not for "not knowing" the song, and it's true, if I had a lyric sheet handy I probably would make the same spoonerism for not bothering to glance at it. ; )

Howard, I think you summed it up pretty well 3 posts back. But I might take issue with this:
"...evidence has emerged during this discussion of singers, some of whom admit to being poor singers, who are trying to build up a large repertoire (albeit out of a book) or are aiming not to repeat a song. Now these are laudable aims, but to be setting themselves those targets when they have not mastered any of their songs is imo misguided. I believe it would be better for them as singers, and for their audience, if they were to concentrate on learning the basics, and only then to think about expanding their repertoire."
I honestly can't identify anyone who has posted in this thread who seems to fit such description.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM

Howard Jones

It is up to the club to decide who will be invited to perform.

Very true.

Your club clearly takes a laissez-faire approach

No, it does not. We operate a considered policy of giving everybody the opportunity to perform. We have been doing so for quite a long time. OK, we get the occasional dud but we have not filled up with people singing John Denver songs out tune from a songbook. Most results vary between acceptable and wonderful.

It should have been perfectly obvious that my final comment was about such clubs which allow poor singers to perform, not about your own club.

But you are accusing us of allowing poor singers to perform.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM

Very interesting Howard, but what does that have to do with this thread?
Have you surfed from one thread to another whilst still responding to the other thread on a completely different subject to this one.
Thread hopping can really get you confused sometimes.
I've made the same mistake once - but never since.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 12:50 PM

I should also add that national parks in the US are very different from the UK. In the US they are attempts to preserve a purely natural wilderness, with as little human intervention as possible. Indeed, some claim they go too far in seeking to remove all evidence of human occupation or activity.

In the UK a national park is simply a Town & Country Planning device, and recognises that people live and work within its boundaries.

Studies based on US research need to be interpreted in this light.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 10:43 AM

Like, for instance, when I sing, "The bird's in the nest, the trout's in the burn ..."

"Is not your horse upon its perch..."

(Saw it here, but I've also done it myself - only in practice, thankfully.)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 10:43 AM

Genie, I agree totally with what you say---(I'm a huge fan of harmony--except possibly on verses)----but it doesn't seem to indicate that it's a good idea for the leader to read his song directly off the page.   Which is the issue.

Orchestras and classical choruses have to pay attention to what's in the sheet music (though conductors are forever trying to get their choruses "out of the music"--i.e. watch the conductor).   A person leading a song however should not need a sheet--or book--to sing from.

So a parallel between a chorus or orchestra performance and a singaround is tenuous.   That's my only point.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Molly
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 10:11 AM

I have read the original question but have not had the time to read all the responses so forgive me if I am 're-inventing the wheel'.
I think it is better to sing than not to so, if you really cannot remember the song, then use the book. BUT, if the words are coming off the page in through your eyes and out of your mouth then they are not going through your heart! Also, while you are looking at the words your head and neck are not at a good angle for singing.
I find it fairly easy to learn songs so I suppose I'm not a good one to give advice but this is my technique: Write the song out yourself in longhand with the proper verse structure, preferably on a single A4 page. If it doesn't fit use two pages side by side so you can see the whole thing. Put it somewhere you can go and look at it easily (masking tape on the kitchen/garage/workshop/office cupboard door is good!) Then sing it while you go about your work/chores/?. Don't worry about minor mistakes but go and check if you get stuck. Learn it one verse at a time and don't go to the next verse until you've got the first right. Sing the verse(s) you know then the one you are learning and gradually build up the song. And if you inadvertently change a word here and there, as long as you don't destroy the sense/meaning, that's the folk process! Then when you take it out in public, shut your eyes, pretend there's no-one there and let it come from your heart.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 09:38 AM

I think the reason so many singers cling to their books for support is that they worry too much about making a mistake. They're already nervous, they get something wrong, they wish the floor would open up, and the whole thing comes crashing down. Whereas the audience, assuming they'd even noticed, will usually be sympathetic.

I was once complimented by an audience member at a club where I was a regular floorsinger for never forgetting the words. I thought, "If only you knew". It's just that I'd got good of covering mistakes and carrying on. It's surprising how often mistakes are made, even by professionals (which I'm not). In most cases, if the performer has learned to deal with them, they won't be noticed. Even where it goes badly wrong, it can usually be laughed off and soon forgotten. It's rare for a mistake to ruin a song, even rarer for it to ruin a whole performance.

This may seem to contradict what I am saying about demanding higher standards. It's not, it's about developing the all-round skills needed to be a singer.

One of the things which gives live music its appeal and its edge is the element of risk involved, the knowledge that no matter how well-rehearsed the performer is, this version of the song will be utterly unique. You don't get that by reproducing the same old songs out of the same old book.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Marje
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 07:51 AM

I think most of us can think of some cringe-making slip-ups we've made, and having a word-sheet there would be no guarantee that this wouldn't happen. Like, for instance, when I sing, "The bird's in the nest, the trout's in the burn ..." the first time, and then at the repeat a few seconds later I can find myself singing "The trout's in the nest..." and I know the bird isn't in the burn but it's too late, and so that's where it ends up - or possibly I'll have two trouts, one in each location.

Anyway, just think how dull it would be if we never had these bloopers, only ever the exact wording that's on the page! IME it tends to happen more when you've stopped concentrating on the song, or are distracted by something happening in the room. If you're really thinking about the words and the story, you're less likely to go wrong. (THINK: What's in the nest, a trout or a bird?) And as you say, the mistake is almost always more noticeable to the performer than to the audience, as long as you can keep going as if nothing was wrong.

Marje

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 07:16 AM

Here's an example of the sort of memory trap that can arise in folk songs. "Bold William Taylor" is about a girl who disguises herself as a man and joins the army to seek her own true-lover. She is discovered when a costume malfunction reveals her to be a woman. The following verse begins:

"Then the sergeant stepped up to her
Asking what had brought her here"

Several verses later, after she's found (and shot) her own true-lover, the same formula appears:

"Then the captain stepped up to her
Pleased well at what she'd done"

One time, I got them muddled and sang:

"A silver chain pulled down her waistcoat
Did expose her lily-white breast

Then the sergeant stepped up to her
Pleased well at what she'd done"

I'm sure he was, too!

Now there is a danger that this sort of mistake gets "embedded" so you keep on repeating it. However, I now have it in my mind as a potential problem, so that whenever I sing it I concentrate at those verses to make sure I sing the correct couplets. I've never made that mistake again.

Now perhaps some will say that wouldn't have happened if I'd had the words in front of me. However, I think I perform better without them, even with the occasional mistake. And having the words is no guarantee - it's very easy to glance away and then lose your place on the page.

Besides, I don't think many in the audience noticed that mistake. I don't recall a reaction - no wave of titters going around the room, no outbreak of grinning. People are listening to the story, and by the time a mistake has registered the story has moved on. Mistakes are nearly always worse for the performer than the audience, so it doesn't do to get to hung up about them. Learn from them.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MikeL2
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:54 AM

Hi Howard

I learn songs the way you do.

I always thought it had two separate processes.

1.The first was to learn the words until word perfect.

2. Then for me came the hard bit. How best to perform the song/music.

I always found find that 1 was/is easy.
2. I never felt that to my own satisfaction I achieved this as much as I would have wanted.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MikeL2
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:48 AM

hi dave

Snap !!

I can't tell you my mobile number cos I don't remember it.

But I can always remember all seven digits of my RAF number that I have not had reason to use for more than thirty years.

I also can remember all the words of our school hymm - even though as a Catholic I was not allowed ( by my family not the school) into morning prayers.

Now what day is it????....lol

cheers

mmike

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:46 AM

LTS, you're right, it is a "brain thing". It's a skill, which has to be learned. The trouble is, because the mind is such a slippery and poorly-understood thing, it's difficult to explain to someone how to do it. Everyone will have their own method which works for them, but to find it is often a matter of trial and error.

For me, it comes down to repetition, over and over. When a song is new, and has caught my imagination, that's not a problem for me, I enjoy it. I prefer to work on the whole song and go back to fill in the gaps, whereas others may prefer to build it up a line or two at a time until they've memorised it through to the end. Whatever works for you.

Once I've got it, I keep repeating it - in the car, in the shower, as well as more formal practice. This reveals those points where I have particular difficulties - perhaps a similar phrase which keeps getting muddled up, or something which refuses to stick - and I know I have to remember to concentrate at these points. As I usually accompany myself, I will also be working on the instrumental arrangement, which evolves over time so I have to decide when I'm happy with that and to start consolidating the whole thing in my mind.

It may take two or three weeks, perhaps more, of daily practice before I'm ready to perform it in public. I usually try to road-test it in a fairly informal setting where it will matter less if I make a mistake. This is also an opportunity to identify points where nerves (which all performers, however experienced, get from time to time) get in the way - perhaps the arrangement is too difficult and needs to be simplified. Once the bugs are ironed out the song is ready to be performed.

It's a lengthy process, and takes time and effort, but it means I have explored the song in far more detail than would be the case if I were to sing it from a book, no matter how many times I did so. Sometimes I think I only start to do a song justice after I have become bored with it, left it for a while, and then come back to it. Songs need time to mature - again, unlikely to happen if you rely on a book every time.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Marje
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:03 AM

Thanks, Howard above, for a great post that sums up the main issues without getting abusive or patronising.

And thank you, Art, for telling us (UK members) a bit more about Rise Up Singing and how it's used. That is something quite unfamiliar in the UK and I think discussions like this often get confused because we're talking about different habits and preferences on different sides of the Atlantic.

So, when someone in the UK says they prefer gatherings where people don't sing from books, they're not talking about a group who all sing together from one book. This is (thankfully) not what happens over here. What is under discussion in the UK (and what the original question referred to, I think) is when a solo singer gets up - or sometimes stays put - to sing a song to the group, reading the words from a book. The others won't normally join in or harmonise except in the chorus, unless it's a very well known song.

That's why many of us feel that it's much more enjoyable when the singer/performer has taken the trouble to learn the song first, and isn't totally reliant on a book. Using a crib-card or other subtle prompt is a different matter, and one on which we'll never all agree, but singing the whole thing "from a book", as if it was a hymn book, is what's coming in for most criticism, as it rarely (I'm not saying never) leads to a good, compelling rendering of the song. Very occasionally there are exceptions ( a great song performed well with a song-sheet, or a lazy, careless performance done from memory) but at least 9 times out of 10 the merits are the other way round.

Saying "I have learnt my songs, but I may need a card or something to prompt me sometimes" is very different from saying "Can't learn, won't learn!"

And now I must go and learn a song ...

Marje

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 06:03 AM

I can't remember my mobile phone number, and I can only remember my land line number if nobody asks me for it.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,LTS on the sofa
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 05:35 AM

Again, just bookmarking really... but a couple of comments to add:

Howard - it must be a brain thing then, because I can remember my mobile phone number which I rarely ring, but can't recall more than three words and half the tune of the song I was singing not half an hour ago, which I'm supposed to be learning.


Don ~ you said "Let me suggest a little thought experiment:   think of your favorite stand-up comedian. One who really cracks you up!
Now—think of him or her standing there on stage and reading their routine out of a joke book."

I don't get to see many stand-up comics but there is one guy who really cracks me and thousands of others up... pants-wettingly, chest-acheingly funny, should have had a knighthood by now.... who uses a book each and every time and wrote everything in them himself. Each time he reads one of his songs, poems or monologues (and I mean read his songs, he admits himself he is not a singer), they are different. Each time I see him, there is something else to find in poems that even I remember by heart. If Les Barker can do it, I don't see why everyone else should be ostracised for doing the same.

LTS

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:29 AM

I accept that there are circumstances when it is helpful to use lyric sheets, especially for group singing. I also accept that there are some good singers who use them, who are capable of not letting it interfere with their performance or interpretation.

Unfortunately, in my experience the singers most likely to need lyrics are also poor performers. OK, everyone has to start somewhere. However evidence has emerged during this discussion of singers, some of whom admit to being poor singers, who are trying to build up a large repertoire (albeit out of a book) or are aiming not to repeat a song. Now these are laudable aims, but to be setting themselves those targets when they have not mastered any of their songs is imo misguided. I believe it would be better for them as singers, and for their audience, if they were to concentrate on learning the basics, and only then to think about expanding their repertoire.

I think Don put his finger on it when he said that in some cases the motivation seems to be more wanting to be part of the group rather than having a genuine desire to sing. I'm sure that's not true in all cases. But even among those who do wish to sing, sometimes there doesn't appear to be the desire to achieve a reasonable standard.

There was a couple who came to a club I used to attend. In the four or five years I knew them, they made no effort to improve. They sang the same few songs, often from a book, more or less in unison with no real attempt at an arrangement. They made no effort to develop either their singing or guitar technique. So far as they were concerned, it was good enough for folk. I think the music deserves better.

Folk audiences are generally sympathetic and forgiving of mistakes, especially by inexperienced singers, so that should reduce the pressure on a nervous performer. However an environment seems to have developed in which a singer will be congratulated merely for having the courage to sing regardless of how well or badly they performed, and which gives them no incentive to develop. That's fine in its place, and novice singers should be encouraged, but it can end up bringing down standards if the idea gets around that all that's required is the mere desire to sing. I certainly don't think there's a place for that where the audience has paid to get in.

Learning a song is difficult, but it's a skill like any other. If you don't do it you won't be able do it. Apart from a small minority with genuine memory problems, most people are capable of learning songs. Do you need a lyric sheet to sing "Happy Birthday", or your national anthem? Do you need one to sing "The Wheels on the Bus" to your kids? If you can remember those, you can remember Tam Lin - the only difference is one of scale. Even the most deluded no-hopers auditioning for the X-Factor have learned their song.

As I said earlier, I don't have a particularly retentive memory - I struggle to remember my own mobile phone number. However I can sing a lot of songs from memory, because I've practiced them. Over the years, it's become easier to learn and to remember songs, because in doing so I've also practiced the skill of learning them by heart.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,muppett
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:22 AM

What's the feeling about singing from the pub menu, did it at the weekend and it seemed to go down well !

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 01:56 AM

If it is a choice between having the song sung from a book or not sung at all, I'll go for the book every time.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 01:15 AM

Janie, I'm sure both Bob and I would appreciate anything you sing and any way you would care to sing it.

What I have trouble with is the person who comes into a song circle and wants to sing a song that they simply don't know and never even encountered until they ran across it in a song book a half-hour before they left home to come to the sing-around. And they drive others screwy by trying to blunder their way through a song whose tune they barely know and some of the words they are actually reading for the first time.

I'm not exaggerating! I've seen that happen. And let's face it, that's pretty self-serving, and downright tacky! All too often, they don't seem to really be all that interested in the songs per se, they just want to be recognized as a full-fledged singer within the group without having to put in the time and work that the other people have.

When more and more people with this attitude showed up, those who had a strong interest in the songs and who had put in the time, work, and study began dropping out—sometimes to form another group.

My point in urging people to memorize the material is that once a song is solidly committed to memory, you can then apply your attention to aspects of the song other than just getting the words and tune out.

For example, most songs and ballads can benefit by the singer doing a bit of subtle and tasteful acting. For example, in dialog songs, say Edward, you have one person demanding to know where the blood on the other's sleeve came from and, dissatisfied with the answers she's getting, she refuses to give up until she gets a believable answer. In the meantime, the man being questioned is being evasive, not wanting to reveal the grizzly truth.

Now, I've seen this sort of thing horribly overdone. Operatic bass-baritone George London was an absolutely brilliant singer, but what he did with Lord Randal—well, it was pretty ghastly! But—a subtle change of voice and inflection as you switch viewpoints can really infuse life into a song and make it downright gripping. After all, you're telling a story. And you would want to tell it well.

There are few things more satisfying that to lay down a song that you have discover and that is new to the group, and do it so well that everybody looks at you wide-eyed and goes, "Wow! Where did you learn that!??"

####

As to orchestras, choirs, and other ensembles working from sheet music, I think there's more to it than meets the eye. Symphony orchestras will often rehearse a particular piece for months before they do it in concert, so it's not as if they aren't thoroughly familiar with it. When you have some ninety or a hundred musicians all working together, you don't want any of them going astray, so they keep the music in front of them just in case.

Church choirs have a very short time to rehearse. Often it's on a Wednesday evening when they begin working on the two or three pieces they'll be singing on the following Sunday, and they spend a couple of hours working on them. Then, they get together again 8:30 Sunday morning and rehearse them again, to be ready to sing them in the service at 11:00. They may not have all of the words memorized, but they are certainly more than just a little familiar with them, having gone over them a good dozen times or so.

####

Once again, if a group of people want to get together and all sing out of the same song book, say "Rise Up Singing," fine and dandy. I, personally, don't particularly enjoy this. What I do enjoy is when I hear someone sing a song I've never heard before, or sing a different version of a song I've heard and/or sing myself. Or a really good verse I've never heard before that appears in a song I've sung for years, and that really fits and enhances the song. And that's simply not going to happen if everybody is singing out of RUS.

Or a new and interesting interpretation of a song I'm very familiar with. And that also is not going to happen if everyone is all singing together out of the same book.

But as I keep saying, your mileage may vary.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:35 PM

Chris, I read your last post after I had made my last one.

Your point about considering the question from the standpoint of the SONG itself is an excellent one. In a way, you're expressing - much more poignantly - what I was trying to say about some songs really needing multiple voices, harmonies, etc.

If someone decided to turn my song "Harmony: One, Out Of Many" into a solo piece, it would be kind of a musical oxymoron, as the theme is unity in diversity and the one repeated line is "let the music be sung, not in unison, but harmony."    Having one person sing that song makes about as much sing as belting out "Silent Night" at the top of your lungs.   There are many songs that really do call for multiple voices -- and not just on the chorus, if one exists.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:27 PM

Ron: [... in a singaround ... you are the conductor, free to interpret the song as you see fit, especially on verses--unless you're bound by the straitjacket of "group singing"--every person singing every word.]

As I've said before, there are SOME songs for which harmonies are key to really making the song sound its best; i.e., some songs are far more beautiful in 3 or 4 part harmony than as solos. (These are often songs that were written or arranged specifically with harmonies in mind -- sometimes with no one voice really carrying the tune, but rather, the tune emerging from the combined parts.)    Wanting the whole group to sing the various parts together on, say "Teach Your Children" (just to use an example that I think most people will recognize) is not a case of being bound by a straightjacket.   There are many songs, some clearly "folk" and others less clearly so, which I think sound sort of naked and less than special when sung in unison but give me goosebumps when sung with close harmonies.

One of my own songs, as an example, is on the theme of "harmony" and was deliberately written with 3-part harmony (with other improvisations welcomed). Its "harmonies," in fact, are really "countermelodies."   I've been frustrated when sharing that song at singarounds and song circles, because, the tune being new to people and not that 'generic', people would mainly sing in unison with me. I even added a really unnecessary chorus to the song just so I could get people to sing along, at least on that, without having lyric sheets.   But the one time I really did get a folkie group to join in with their harmonies -- and sing the song as it was meant to be sung -- was when I passed out lyric sheets.    Even if a song is not very complex or difficult, if it's new to most people, you really need to let them have at least a lyric sheet if they are meant to sing along.
(Try as I may, I have not mastered the art of singing live in harmony with myself.)

Beyond that, sometimes having a few voices together on a whole song makes it more powerful and stirring, even when it's in unison. Sea chanteys are examples. And not all such songs have simple, repeated chorus.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:05 PM

Ron, the point I was making about orchestras and choruses using sheet music was not that their music is like most of what's done at singarounds and song circles (though their lyrics are sometimes much more simple and less repetitive than some folk songs).   The point was that they are able to interpret the music and play/sing it with exquisite emotion even while using the printed sheet. That not only can be done with other kinds of music but often is -- though that doesn't happen in any type of music when a book is used as a substitute for learning the piece, rehearsing, etc.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:53 PM

Don Firth ===sitting in a doctor's waiting room with nothing to do but leaf absently through the latest "People's Magazine" or a fourteen-year-old copy of "National Geographic," one can gaze off thoughtfully into space while singing any number of songs and ballads silently in one's head===
Slight thread drift which some might however find useful - I find that technique useful in a painful situation, e.g. when a dentist is drilling. Try it & see how it can reduce the pain.

I agree with Genie's point just above — there are times for books & sheets, & times when best not. The important judgment, as so often, is as to which is which. I am often accused of 'pedantry', a charge I do not invariably deny: a trait which often subsumes 'casuistry'; but I think the Casuist school of philosophy has come in for much undeserved obloquy & disapproval ~ their real point surely being that "every case should be judged on its merits" ~ in principle a Good Thing?; even if, pragmatically, there so often is just not time enough.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:53 PM

Dennis the Elder, respect man,I really respect your comments.


Ok now people. We have heard from every manner of folk singer; from serious professional to semi-professional to just the novice and enthusiastic singer who joins in or has a go in an informal singaround. And God bless you all for keeping the folk tradition alive and for singing your hearts out; either in front of a large audience or just in front of the bathroom mirror!

But, do you know, we haven't heard from the SUBJECT of all this debate! - 'The Song' itself!
How does a song itself feel about how it is sung and the attention it recieves to be sung well as it's composer/master intended?
How does it feel about just being sung lightly from a book or by people who take the time and effort to memorise it by heart and take it into their soul and render it to it's perfection?

This is just a thought, but also a CHALLENGE to all the creative song writers out there ( and I am sure there are many) to consider the view point of a song and think of it as a living entity and how it would feel about how it was delivered into the world and how we could do justice to the master who created it.

Also think of a song as a new creation and a new born baby that you wish to bring into the world and which has been born from your own imagination. As you nurture it and feed it with your loving attention and painstaking detail how would that song wish to be sung and remembered?

So I invite you here to become creative and pen some lyrics from the view point of the song itself and how it would wish to be delivered. I encourage you to write a song on this theme and pen your creative inspirations here.

I have created a few song lines already on this theme and will contribute as we go along!

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:51 PM

As one who has sung a long time in a big chorus, I'd have to say I think a reference to a chorus or orchestra as justifying reading a song off a page is a red herring.

Composers are extremely precise about exact dynamics, duration of notes, changes in tempo, etc.   And conductors add another layer to this.   You have to be watching the conductor constantly-while also observing every little direction given by the composer in the music.

It's a far cry from singing a song in a singaround--where you are the conductor, free to interpret the song as you see fit, especially on verses--unless you're bound by the straitjacket of "group singing"--every person singing every word.   Yes, in singing a classical piece you need music in front of you--with very few exceptions.   This is vastly different from the situation in a singaround.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 08:55 PM

Don, I appreciate the perspective on times and places where people pretty much had to rely on oral tradition, even for sharing very sophisticated, lengthy songs, poems, etc.   And I don't think there's much disagreement here about the value of committing songs to memory and even overlearning them to the point where you could "sing them in your sleep," as it were.

Still, several types of situation have been mentioned in this thread where song sheets or even books (other than RUS) can be a real asset.   
One is group singing, where the "sing-along" parts are not short, very commonly known, or repetitive.   

Another is the situation where the performer's ability to memorize long lyric sequences and recall them without error even in the face of distractions, nerves, etc.   (And most people get over their stage fright only as they make themselves get up and perform over and over in spite of the nerves; if everyone waited to perform in public until they had overcome their performance anxiety, a lot of people would never perform.)   

Still another was just mentioned:
"At a folk club I no longer go to, the most entertaining of the regulars only ever sang from sheets. His genre was verbally intricate Victorian music hall. He could communicate them brilliantly, but rarely did the same one twice. Memorizing them wouldn't have made any sense. The whole point of his act was that it was a window into a multifarious culture of the distant past."

It's not all that unusual for someone to want to share a song that they are not likely to perform again soon, if at all.   This could be something shared for a special occasion or theme workshop.   Or it could be that the performer simply likes to present something different most of the time instead of the old standbys.   I'm not sure every one-time presentation at a music camp or singaround warrants weeks and weeks of preparation just to avoid having to glance at a lyric sheet occasionally.


"This guy certainly was [ready to perform]. Can YOU do that? Pick up something with a long, tricky, chromatic tune, wacky rhythm and complicated internal rhymes, and do it fluidly carrying off all the original jokes?"

It's been mentioned before that choirs and orchestras often use sheet music because what they are performing is complex. I've seen jazz jam sessions and even folky fiddle sessions where sheet music was used for similar reasons, with the quality of the music probably benefitting, not suffering, from the use of it.    And "poetry readings" and "dramatic readings" used to be a fairly common and respected type of entertainment.   The ability to interpret lyrics, prose, and music while 'reading' from a page is not an oxymoron.

Are most of us really disagreeing on a lot of points, or are we (in this thread) mainly switching from one subtopic to another?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 08:52 PM

Hi Don,

I'm not sure what I have written that leads you to think I am labeling anyone a villian, much less you or Bob.   If I am guilty of having labelled or demeaned anyone or their opinions in my posts to this thread, I sincerely apologize. I am enjoying this thread, and learning alot about what shapes the different viewpoints. I may not entirely share a point a view, but I certainly respect it.    Sorry if I have not made that clear.

I'm also unclear about what you were conveying when you wrote "sorry you feel that way," and am wondering if you perhaps misread my post. Otherwise, it sounds like you are saying you are sorry I think you and Bob might enjoy and appreciate what I might offer in a song circle, should I ever have the opportunity to head up that way. I think I am familiar enough with you to be pretty certain that is not what you mean.

I have no doubt at all that I would thoroughly enjoy listening to you and or Bob, in a song circle as a member of an audience.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 08:07 PM

Just a historical note:

Not particularly depicted in the movies, but actual working cowboys often led a very lonely and boring lives. Steers, especially when they're behaving themselves, are not particularly stimulating companions. So cowboys had to rely on themselves and each other for entertainment.

Many cowboys were surprisingly literate, especially compared to the way they were usually depicted in the movies.   Many had memorized long passages from books, could recite poetry (not just "cowboy poetry"), and knew entire sections of Shakespeare's plays. They could recite for each other, or if out in the boonies on their own and bored to tears, they could and would recite to themselves. I believe that the Lomaxes go into this matter at some length.

And I don't think they had a whole lot of room for poetry books and volumes of Shakespeare in their saddlebags. Or song books.

They sang as well (see the Lomaxes' Cowboy Songs, which, I believe contains the first printing of many cowboy songs, including "Home on the Range"). And many of the songs they knew must have been traditional songs and ballads. Consider that the anonymous bard who came up with the song, "The Streets of Laredo" had to have been familiar with "The Dying Soldier's Lament" or "The Bad Girl's Lament" because many of the lyrics are obviously derivative. Same with a lot of cowboy songs.

And I believe the same holds true for seamen as well. Those who are into nautical lore can correct me if I'm wrong about that.

While riding the bus, as an alternative to simply people-watching or staring vacantly out the window at the same landscape you've seen pass by every morning for the past twenty-eight years--or sitting in a doctor's waiting room with nothing to do but leaf absently through the latest "People's Magazine" or a fourteen-year-old copy of "National Geographic," one can gaze off thoughtfully into space while singing any number of songs and ballads silently in one's head.

Good practice, by the way. Keeps the songs fresh in your--ahem--memory.

Just a few thoughts.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:44 PM

I think that singing from a songbook is better'n singing from a telephone book. The telephone book has a great cast of characters, but there's no plot.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:19 PM

Oh osme, the singing may have been OK but the typing's gone AWOL!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:17 PM

THREE HUNDRED! just goes to show what a lot of opinions there are on this subject, and it's not the first time this subject has been discussed.
I did a song on Saturday without the "comfort zone" of the words lurking on the table or behind me and it went OK: so I can do it osme of the time!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 06:35 PM

My comments were directed at those who admit they're poor singers, and use that as an excuse to sing from a book rather than committing their songs to memory. I'm offering the thought that perhaps they should consider whether they're ready to perform in public.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 06:34 PM

All of Johnson's Musical Museum used to be available to borrow from Edinburgh Public Library.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 06:29 PM

Folk music shouldn't be about your own self-esteem, or your confidence, or even because you just want to sing. It should be about communicating good music to a willing audience.

At a folk club I no longer go to, the most entertaining of the regulars only ever sang from sheets. His genre was verbally intricate Victorian music hall. He could communicate them brilliantly, but rarely did the same one twice. Memorizing them wouldn't have made any sense. The whole point of his act was that it was a window into a multifarious culture of the distant past.


If you can't do that you're not ready to perform in public.

This guy certainly was. Can YOU do that? Pick up something with a long, tricky, chromatic tune, wacky rhythm and complicated internal rhymes, and do it fluidly carrying off all the original jokes?


Folk clubs can still offer you plenty of opportunity to sing, but standing up to face an audience when you're not ready to do so is sheer self-indulgence.

The reason I don't go to that club any more is because it got very, very boring with the same word-perfect renditions of rather uninteresting 1980s singer-songwriter stuff. The people who did it never made a mistake. It was exactly the same the tenth time round. If that's what turns you on, maybe you ought to find a venue that makes accountancy a spectator sport.

I'd far rather listen to someone like Dennis the Elder doing his best to get across something that means something to him than patronize a venue that would try to silence him.

(Must try turning up at a singaround with my favourite book sometime - all four volumes of Bronson. Though there is probably somebody local who could trump that by bringing the whole Greig-Duncan).

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 05:58 PM

Don, I very much sympathise with what you are saying. I have not been around as long as you have, I started singing in UK folk clubs late 1960s/early 1970s, but I recognise much of what you are describing.

At that time standards were self-imposed. People went to a folk club, but only stood up to sing when they felt they were ready and had reached an adequate standard. At the very least, they were expected to have learned the words. No one expected perfection, least of all from novice singers, but there was an unspoken assumption that anyone putting themselves forward for a floorspot should have put in the work beforehand. It was a question of respect for the music and the audience, if not for oneself

More lately, the idea seems to have grown up that the most important thing is for people to sing, whether or not they have any ability. We have had a number of people posting to this thread who admit that they are not good singers, but they nevertheless seem to believe that people should be prepared to listen to them, even though they son't seem to be willing to make the effort to improve.

Folk music shouldn't be about your own self-esteem, or your confidence, or even because you just want to sing. It should be about communicating good music to a willing audience. If you can't do that you're not ready to perform in public. Folk clubs can still offer you plenty of opportunity to sing, but standing up to face an audience when you're not ready to do so is sheer self-indulgence.

Sorry to sound harsh.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 05:49 PM

My method of learning a song is to sing it (in my head) while I'm whistling the tune, then if I find bits I can't remember, I check the words when I get home. Obviously I don't do this as a public performance.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 05:35 PM

Don ... Well said! Why am I not surprised! bob

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 05:12 PM

When I visit a folk club or a club where folk singing or music is presented to an audience, I need to feel at ease. I am not a good singer and I need the reassurance of a book of songs I have prepared myself. I practice these songs, but find, when in performing I inevitably have problems if the book is absent.   If I had to wait to be invited to a club I probably have to be satisfied with singing in the bath to a plastic duck.
I do not believe that folk and authority particularly go together. I agree that some control may be needed where people are invited to perform. As my favourite format is a sing around I look forward to trying to stretch myself to the level of the other performers. Freedom to sing any song under the very broad umbrella of "folk" is paramount.
I do not mind a singer with a poor voice or even an instrumentalist who gets it wrong now and again, that to me is the essence of a good folk club. I hope, when I sing others at the club feel the same way. I personally do not mind being given a quiet word of advice from another club member, with the emphasis on quiet.
Not all good folk singers have good voices, but they do have a feeling for the song they are singing, I try to have the feeling if I fail with the voice.
I have read both positive and negative comments throughout this thread and one or two comments of a personal nature. I have also noted that some people like nothing better than to find fault with other peoples opinions, please only constructive comments, there are other pressures in life without adding aggression.
Is not folk music a way of presenting subjects such as passion, death, love, war, happiness and sorrow in ways that informs and pleasures the listener?
We all have our views and many of us want different things from the clubs we visit, I myself visit clubs or venues where I find what I want. I hope that on the odd occasion someone likes what I sing and I know for certain that I listen to all other singers and musicians with interest and almost always with enjoyment.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 04:55 PM

Janie, I'm sorry you feel that way. But I don't think Bob (Deckman) Nelson and I are the villains here. We've been deeply involve in folk music all our lives, Bob since he was thirteen and me since I was twenty-one. That was right around the late 1940s and early 1950s.

There were only a relatively small number of people around Seattle at the time—or, for that matter, in the entire country—who were interested in folk music, and when you mentioned folk music to most people, they thought you were talking about "Country and Western" or what the Sons of the Pioneers did.

The few folk music enthusiasts there were often got together to sing for each other and swap songs. Such gatherings, usually in private homes, were what were initially called "hootenannies." They were not public performances until music promoters pre-empted the word later on (early 1960s). And right from the very beginning, it was automatically assumed by everyone in Seattle's folk music community, and, for that matter, everywhere else (Berkeley, San Francisco, Portland, Boston, New York. . . .) that one memorize the songs before trying to sing them in front of other people. Including at "hoots," parties, and song fests.

No one ever questioned this. Nobody ever made a big deal about this or argued about it.

Bob and I have spent a goodly portion of our lives singing at get-togethers with other folk music enthusiasts. But we have also spent a great deal of time performing, not primarily for folk groups, but for general audiences. Concerts, television, and other engagements, along with coffeehouses frequented by all kinds of people, not just folk music enthusiasts.

In more than one coffeehouse, later in the evening we would often see people in tuxes and formals coming in:    the "after show" crowd, who had just come from a symphony concert, a recital, or an opera. And opera singers and recitalists do not sing reading from written music or carry song sheets around with them on stage. Professional performers, no matter what genre, are expect to know their material from memory. And since Bob and I were getting paid to do what we did, we were "professionals."

And, I might add, this goes for traditional singers as well. I've seen singers such as Jean Ritchie, Almeda Riddle, Mississippi John Hurt, and many others at folk festivals, and none of them sang from books or paper. They all sang from memory. So—memorizing the songs is part of the tradition.

In a group such as a song circle, where people just want to get together and sing, are not particularly interested in professional performing, and if they want to sing from song books, well, okay. Nobody's trying to stop people from doing this.

So, a lot depends on what you want to do and how far you want to go with it.

But I might suggest this:   when learning a song, sing it a lot at home. Try reciting it like a poem. Try to sing it without looking at the paper. If you blow it, read the line again, put the paper aside, and try singing it again. Keep doing that until you can get through the song without looking at the paper at all. Then, keep singing it without the song sheet until you have it down solid.

If you constantly rely on having the paper in your hand, it can become a psychological crutch.

Take a chance! Try working without a net!

Don Firth

P. S. Both Bob and I have a deep interest in where these songs come from, those who sang them, and what their lives were like, and I don't think anyone could honestly claim that we do not sing these songs with understanding, empathy, and heart.

P. P. S. Let me suggest a little thought experiment:   think of your favorite stand-up comedian. One who really cracks you up!

Now—think of him or her standing there on stage and reading their routine out of a joke book.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 02:15 PM

Snail, I am reluctant to get too drawn into this discussion, which has been repeated many times in other threads. However I would like to come back on a couple of points.

It is nonsense to say that you don't have authority over what happens at your club - among friends or not. The club is organising the event, and is perfectly entitled to control what goes on, and what is and isn't acceptable or appropriate. It is up to the club to decide who will be invited to perform.

Whether and how you choose to exercise that authority is a different matter. Your club clearly takes a laissez-faire approach, and I don't doubt that it works for your club. However it should be obvious that it won't work for all - I won't name names, but I have been in plenty where the standard of performance was pretty low - unacceptably poor, as far as I am concerned.

The comment about my professional friends was not that they were embarrassed about their audience - they come from a folk background and know what to expect. The point was that people from outside the folk scene were turning up to folk clubs and paying money to hear good music, only to have to sit through some very amateurish performances from the floorsingers. That does not convey a good impression of folk music or of folk clubs. IMO, clubs should exercise some quality control over floorspots on guest nights, and those singers who don't come up to scratch can get their chance at singers nights.

It should have been perfectly obvious that my final comment was about such clubs which allow poor singers to perform, not about your own club.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 02:05 PM

Fortunate, definitely fortunate - unless there is a lot more to your policy than you're letting on.

Maybe it's our positive attitude.