BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 23 - 02:52 PM

From Attila The Stockbroker today - right on the button as usual…

”Farage is a banker
Who can no longer bank
The rhyme is far too obvious
But just once Coutts I’ll thank
Though while we roar with laughter
And try not to think of tissues
Remember it’s a smokescreen
To distract from other issues”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 23 - 11:47 AM

No-one in Labour is ever going to admit it, but the onslaught on Corbyn from within the party during that two years, executed in the knowledge that the Tories would never contemplate a full term with a shabby minority shored up only by a bunch of illiberal antediluvian types in Northern Ireland, amounted to a deliberate suicide note for the next election. Even had Corbyn resigned before the election, the scramble for a new leader (go on - tell me who!) would still have guaranteed defeat. In the unlikely event of a Corbyn victory in 2019, the right in the party would not have been able to stomach him as PM. The party right wanted him to lose so that they could then do what they're doing now, trying to abolish the left of the party completely and ruthlessly. The last time we had a leftie PM was Atlee, when the circumstances were extraordinary. Labour's core at the top has always been to the right of its centre. It's their party and they're ruthless bastards...

But it won't work for long. That's history for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 23 - 10:23 AM

Well it was a general election with two main antagonists. Admittedly, the old saw that elections are lost rather than won has more than a grain of truth, as you're suggesting in this case. But the result was unexpected (and she did lose her overall majority: trashed?), it set alarm bells ringing on the right (as well as among the right in the Labour Party) and it triggered an onslaught by the right-wing media and from within his own party for the next two years. He is a naive, unspun man (not good qualities in a leader, I'm the first to admit) and he didn't know how to counter the attacks, and he accorded his opponents a field day when it came to brexit. Elections are won and lost for many complex reasons and it's impossible to to assign relative importance accurately to any one of them, but I take your point.

Cheers for your civilly-expressed and thoughtful disagreement, Nigel. We could use more of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 23 - 10:23 AM

Who is being a little disingenuous now, Nigel?

Do you not think that the media and right wing of the Labour party had anything to do with Corbyn's defeat 2 years later? When it is known that members of his own party would rather lose the election than have him as leader it became impossible to repeat the earlier result.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 23 - 09:57 AM

Steve:
I think you're being a little disingenuous (or looking through RED-tinted glasses) in claiming that Corbyn trashed May's majority.
My view would be that that was mainly down to Theresa may failing to make good on Brexit, and making too many concessions to Brussels thus leaving us in a much poorer negotiating position.
If it was down to Corbyn, why did he not repeat the result against Boris two years later?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 11:47 AM

When I refer to the party, I'm talking about the party's political establishment, not the hundreds of thousands of party members who joined when he was elected leader. The right in the party don't like us much, either. They don't care that we're leaching away in droves. In fact, they welcome it. Too many of us are on the left for their taste. And look what we have now: an unprincipled leader whose best skill is U-turning on policy and who is just as unconvincing as Corbyn, with his only saving grace being that the right of the party prop him up while the left are either expelled on the most puny of pretexts or who, alternatively, had better shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 11:19 AM

Nope. The appropriate response to that is that you are suffering severely from Daily Mailism. You forget that, against all the odds, he trashed Theresa May's majority in 2017. That's when his own party did the right's dirty work in demonising him, both via senior members refusing to join his shadow cabinet and via a small gang of Israeli regime apologists confecting a bogus antisemitism campaign against him. Yes we party members in massive numbers held our heads and groaned at his stance on brexit. As a party leader he was flawed. Michael Foot was similar in many regards. But make no mistake: it was not that Corbyn was unelectable, rather that his own party made him unelectable - deliberately so. It seemed that they'd rather lose an election than have him as leader. You can largely thank all those Labour right-wingers for delivering Boris Johnson to us. Not the only factor, of course. After 2017 the surprised right-wing gutter press decided that they needed to go to town on Corbyn. The Tories hardly had to bother. It was all also an object lesson on how you can't make it without an army of vicious spin-doctors.

Whether you're Tory or not is your private business unless you choose to divulge.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 03:05 AM

Jeremy Corbyn, particularly with regard to the trumped-up antisemitism nonsense

As I remember it, he overtly supported things "not Israel/Jewish" and that was to garner support from those less covert in their anti-Israel stance. Other views are available, subject to confirmation bias.

And while we are "on topic", Corbyn was not only un-electable, and obviously so, he wanted Brexshit so he could make his own laws that weren't necessarily European ones. His public stance on Brexshit was to leave a free vote. A prudent or timid position depending on which side of the 50/50 you sit.

Cue accusations of being Tory or something, here it comes..........................

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Jul 23 - 01:32 PM

.... Ah *that*'s why the English news is wall-to-wall coverage of that kerfuffle about a Beeb presenter: stir up a Saville-storm, and nobody remembers Mickey Mouse being painted over, or Thames Water being sold off and collapsing in a cloud of debt and excrement, or [snip: I too forget them all]. The only escape is Radio Four, whose news bulletins cover more than one subject (they don't yet suffer from Bone-of-the-Week syndrome), and where the satire programmes tell us what's really going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jul 23 - 05:27 AM

Following the ‘painting over cartoon-character murals’ exercise at a reception centre for the children of asylum-seekers because, according to the Immigration Minister Robert Jenrick, they were ‘too welcoming’, I’ve borrowed this from the social media post of a person I know personally. Nail/head, AFAIC…

”Three poems for a Morally Vacant Government that uses Petty Cruelty as a stick with which to beat lost, lonely and already damaged children...

#1) "WELL, MR JENRICK, IF WE DIDN’T ALREADY KNOW WHAT TYPE OF HEARTLESS PEOPLE YOUR PARTY ARE, WE DO NOW.

Don’t let the children have a look
At Mickey Mouse or The Jungle Book
Paint over, make them disappear
We don’t want a welcome here"
- Paul Cookson

#2) "No Mickey Mouse
Allowed in this house
We’re not talking child protection
It’s about votes
‘Stopping the boats’
So this is a house of correction
A cartoon’s too nice
For a heart made of ice
It must be painted over
The message unsaid:
Your folks may be dead
But the graves don’t end in Dover"
- Attila the Stockbroker

#3) "Paint over Mickey Mouse
Burn Where the Wild Things Are
Pulverise the lego
Set fire to the Christmas tree star.

Seize all the teddies
Bury every skipping rope
Paint the walls dark brown
Abolish all hope."
- Michael Rosen

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 23 - 06:25 AM

I agree. And byelections tend to produce maverick results, and these two, whatever happens, will be relegated in the public mind by the time the next election comes round. Playing a straight bat would be less unseemly. That reminds me: I'm just about due to tune into the third Test...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 23 - 02:08 AM

Labour ‘throwing the kitchen sink’ at Selby byelection as hopes grow of shock win
I can't see how that could really work out well. If Labour do get the seat, they will send a signal that they can win similar seats in the General Election when it occurs, but they will not be able to "throw the kitchen sink" at every such seat, so it will give a false impression of their ability to win. And of course, there is a very high chance of letting the Conservatives win by spittibg the vote.

Probably the best result is if Labour do throw the kitchen sink at the seat, but the LibDems still win. In that case, maybe more intelligent tactics will be used for the GE.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 23 - 01:40 PM

I just can't bring myself to watch that, Steve. What the Labour party has become is so sad that I cannot bear to get it confirmed any more!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 04:50 PM

Only if it's Tories we're talking about...

Watched a documentary called the Labour Files on YouTube last night. OK, it was made (or put together) by Al Jazeera. It dealt with the downfall of Jeremy Corbyn, particularly with regard to the trumped-up antisemitism nonsense. How Labour apparatchik insiders and not a few MPs, including John Mann, Luciana Berger, Margaret Hodge and Ruth Smeeth, especially those with sympathies for Israel, ganged up to demonise him. How Labour were forced into the position of having to accept the deeply flawed IHRA definition of antisemitism. How Zionism, antisemitism and criticism of Israel were conflated in order to prevent any criticism of Israel and how reporting of the treatment of Palestinians was virtually set aside. There were plenty of other disturbing revelations.

I'm not looking for confirmation bias and I was extremely aware of the Al Jazeera logo at the bottom of the screen. But I'm piqued into delving a bit more. Anyone who feels the need to criticise Corbyn (and he certainly isn't beyond criticism) should reflect on whether their opinions were formed by dint of what they got from our mainstream media. Even the "unbiased" BBC has a lot to answer for in light of that infamous Panorama documentary. It's lazy talk to characterise him as "a weak leader who led Labour to their worst defeat since the thirties," etc. A bit more deep digging is required in order to see what really went on, especially in the Labour Party. And Starmer doesn't get a free pass either, far from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 10:20 AM

The Cat's had hiccups on and off for a few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 09:30 AM

I've just done a longer post that won't post. Grr. I'll try again, whenever...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 08:05 AM

Is this the joke thread? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 06:12 AM

The end of the old thread?   The old thread just told me that it's a frayed knot...

Subject: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 05:57 AM

Because part 2 of the single thread for UK politics has reached over 1000 posts I hope to start a new one here. The old one should be closed soon.

The end of the old thread