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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Effsee Date: 26 Aug 08 - 10:25 PM "ridiculous Dn3! "...erm, please explain? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:10 PM Heartning to see so many young musicians from the dissolved clontarf branch of cce attend the scoil éigse and represent Leinster in the All Ireland competitions.Nice to have them announced in the grupa ceol as 'Clontarf'and not the ridiculous Dn3! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: knight_high Date: 21 Aug 08 - 10:46 AM Best of luck indeed to the Reel Clontarf branch and their competitors at Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann in Tullamore. I cannot understand how Comhaltas and the so called "Official Branch" would have the nect to start classes in Clasach I do notice that Cluain Tarbh Comhaltas is listed as a location on the Comhaltas website and that you are giving classes in Marino College |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 21 Aug 08 - 06:52 AM The newly formed branch of Comhaltas are starting classes in the Clasac building in September. Their advertisements in the all ireland fleadh programme and in the Northside News look very optimistic. Just to let anyone reading this know, the REEL CLONTARF (now known as Ceoltoiri Cluain Tarbh) are continuing our lessons and our club as normal, enrolment in Marino College on 6th September 9 - 11.30 a.m. We will have the same teachers, same pupils, same bands and groups, same socials, trips, activities, competitions and most importantly, the same democratically elected committee. As a member of the club and parent of children in the club, I'd like to sincerely thank our committee for persevering through the difficult times of the dissolution and through all the slings and arrows since March. To our officers, Maurice, Diarmaid and Cormac, and to the whole committee, and a special thanks to Ms Motivator, Anne Conway - you have played a blinder, thank you all. Best of luck to all our musicians at the Tullamore Fleadh. See you all back in action on the 6th September Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: oggie Date: 15 Jul 08 - 05:36 AM Except for Tax purposes there is currently no formal Charity registration in Ireland and nothing like the regulation that occurs in England. Plans to change this went out to consultation in 2006 but as of now there has been no new legislation. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 15 Jul 08 - 04:56 AM Thanks Bonnie, that sounds like a good plan. will definitely check it out. Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 14 Jul 08 - 09:58 AM No longer allowed to use the name of the district where you are based, in any way, shape or form? Even if you're a private, independent organisation? Surely that can be legally challenged. And if you do call yourself "Clontarf" something (whether in Irish or English) what are they going to do about it? Sue you? Get a lawyer's opinion. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 14 Jul 08 - 04:21 AM Very sound performance from all Clontarf musicians. I strongly object to the Fleadh organisers refusing to allow our branch have a name. Apparently we are no longer allowed use the name Cluain Tarbh in any shape or form. I find this strategy most insulting and devisive, "divide and conquer" is probably the thinking behind it. Our individual musicians, duets, trios etc are all entered without a club name, but under their home addresses. Our ceili bands and grupai ceoil are listed as Ceili Band, or Groupa Ceoil DN (for Dublin North, I think). Although it doesn't stop our success, the "no name" policy of cce hq manages to mask and cover up our club. We are still 400 people, still united, still great musicians, still well meaning and decent people. Stop treating us like crap Labhras. We are not going away. Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST Date: 12 Jul 08 - 07:26 PM Well done to all the musicians who played in the junior competitions today in the Leinster fleadh esp the children from the Clontarf Branch, the were called 'DN' in the programme could someone from HQ please explain this. Delighted to see this bureaucracy hasn't interfered with the standard of music being played at grassroots level. There were quite a number of clontarf [DN] winners today.They are to be applauded and encouraged. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Guest - Micheál Date: 11 Jul 08 - 06:59 PM When is the dissolution of the Clontarf branch going to be lifted? Everything has gone very quiet lately.... Does that mean that talks are going on to lift that undemocratic, unfair and unwarranted dissolution? Hopefully so as traditional music, in Dublin and nationally, need a fantastic branch like Clontarf. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 11 Jul 08 - 06:47 AM The very best of luck to all participants in the Leinster Fleadh this weekend (, particularly those from the Reel Clontarf. It doesn't matter who's name is on the door of the practise room, or if you are not listed as part of a Clontarf group/band on the programme. You are all the greatest! Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Cluain Tarbh Date: 29 Jun 08 - 08:29 AM A word of thanks! Once again we got marvellous support from the Traditional Music Community - artist and punter alike - at our fundraiser in the Cobblestone on June 12th last. A packed house was treated to a veritable feast of music and song. Thanks so much to everybody for coming out to support us once again! Especially Thanks to all the artists who gave so generously of their time and talent. * Mick (Accordion) O Connor and Brian Kelly * Máire Breathnach * Niamh Parsons and Siobhan Moore * Alan Doherty and Mick Broderick * Pat Good and Liam kennedy * Mary Nugent and Frank Walsh * Jesse Smith and John Blake Thanks to our MC on the night - Aoife Mullen and to Derek Duff on sound. Thanks also to Anne, Rosie and Julie who put so much work into organising the event. Lastly thanks to the Cobblestone for hosting the night. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM Can I clear something up before this polarises into a slanging match. My first introduction to Irish music was hearing Felix Doran play at a Comhaltas concert in Manchester sometime in the mid-sixties - I was hooked from then on. When we started collecting her in Clare, the first musicians we met and recorded were not only CCE members, but founder members; Junior Crehan, Sean Reid, J.C. Talty... all neighbours and friends of Willie Clancy (also a key figure in CCE), who we never got to meet. Some of our the musicians we count(ed) among our oldest friends were members; without their friendship and generosity we would never have recorded the music and information that we did. Any antipathy I feel towards Comhaltas is reserved exclusively for the leadership and its behaviour towards its rank-and-file members and other people working in the field of traditional music. I believe both have been served badly by Monkstown and the present situation at Clontarf is symptomatic of the disregard in which they are held. Already this discussion is beginning to appear to be a for-against one, which is not how I feel about the organisation in general. While I have some reservations about how CCE works, which I have aired on this forum in the past, they in no way reduce the respect I have for the many members who I know and count as my friends. If this discussion is going to expand beyond the 'Clontarf' issue, I would much rather it did so off-line where I will be more than happy to air my views, supply any information I have and receive any anybody might care to give me. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST Date: 21 Jun 08 - 01:50 PM Don, Long term - CCE is the recipient of largest grant money for Traditional music - have a look at the millions that were awarded to them last year for capital projects. Nobody objects to them getting as much money as they need, but not at the expense of other activities. I think you will find that O'Murchu's report is aimed at getting it at the cost of other organisations - if you haven't, please read it, and will happily send you the full article from Phoenix. The report was followed up by loud and long protests by O'Murch at the Arts Council Initiative 2005-2008; Mrs Labhras is a board member. If you haven't read CCEs protests against the Initiative - again, please do - much of them appeared in the pages of Treor. Of course CCE should get a slice of the cake; but they appear to want the whole bakery! The report was shelved because of the protests at O'Murchú's failure to include activities other than CCE's. If the Irish economy does take a swan-dive and money for the arts is cut, the survival of all other projects will depend totally on the co-operation of all interested bodies. Comhaltas is notorious for refusing to work with anybody who won't allow them to call the tune. Given the influence that O'Murchú has politically, this does not auger well for Traditional music. Cap'n You're beginning to sound like a nodding dog (if a nodding dog can sound) - have you no ideas of your own? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,PJ Date: 21 Jun 08 - 01:47 PM "Labhrás and CCE for working their butts off" ? And the people of Clontarf didn't? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 21 Jun 08 - 12:54 PM Fair comment Gulliver. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Gulliver Date: 21 Jun 08 - 12:05 PM Jim, that post has me confused. First you mention things like the Traditional Music Archive, Folklore Department, etc (all of which cost money to set up and run). Then you say that CCE "remain the recipient of the largest (by far) amount of public money". Didn't the recent renovation of the Cork School of Music cost over €60 million? And the Arts Council must be getting around €100 million per year from the Department of Arts, Heritage and Sport. And isn't the Arts Council (which in their 2004 Report on the Traditional Arts went against the wishes of the CCE) responsible for doling out that money to the many applicants around the country, including to the CCE? In that same report the Arts Council admitted that they donated €37,000 to the Willy Clancy school, but nothing to the much larger Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann. Also, around that time, about 17 branches of CCE applied to the Arts Council for grants, and only 4 were granted (for a total of less than €7,000!). Then you say you want the traditional arts to be funded and successful, and yet you seem to condemn Labhrás and CCE for working their butts off to do just that. Don |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jun 08 - 04:02 AM Nameless Observer "give Paddy a pint and he'll play all night" No, I do not want to return anywhere; I want to see that what is happening now to Irish music will continue to happen, and the only way to ensure that is even-handedness and openness as far as national funding is concerned. Ireland now has a National Music Archive which is the envy of the world; the Irish Folklore Department houses one of the finest collections of music and song in Europe, if not the world; regional archives and music centres are beginning to appear; music and singing schools and festivals are springing up like mushrooms. Arguably the most influential event in the teaching of Irish music, The Willie Clancy Summer School (the formation of which Labhras turned down the invitation to participate in because the organisers refused to include competitions) is celebrating its 37th year next month. All this, and much more is happening without Comhaltas, yet they remain the recipient of the largest (by far) amount of public money and they continue to hold the support of the politicians. When Minister Éamon O'Quiv promised financial support to The Michael Coleman Centre in Sligo, then had a change of heart and insisted that the money be handed to CCE, Labhras had no hesitation in taking over the centre. His report to Oireachtais, his opposition to the Arts Council policy which followed and the dirty deal with IMRO was totally about money and the control of public funding. Sligo and Clontarf appears to have been about the acquisition of property. The question of the ownership of Bru Boru has yet to hit the fan. In all this Comhaltas still continues to play an invaluable role; its real strength and contribution to Irish music lies, and has always lain with its branches and in the work of its teachers, yet it is precisely these people who are being treated with contempt by the leadership. Ireland appears to be heading for an economic downturn. If this is the case, we know from experience that in such circumstances it is always the arts that are first to suffer, and the traditional arts will be invariable in the front line of any cuts. I understand from a friend on this thread that this is already beginning to happen and that her own work is being curtailed by the developing situation. If we have anything less than even-handedness, all the work done by the people who set up ITMA, WCSS, The Coleman, Padraig Okeefe, Seamus Ennis Centres..... etc, will have been undone - that will guarantee us a return to the Dark Ages of Irish Music. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: knight_high Date: 20 Jun 08 - 08:45 PM Many people who read this thread and many thousands more who dont, work very hard to promote Irish Traditional Music and song. Many organise and run small festivals, both within and outside of the Comhaltas organisation. Organisers can apply for funding from various organisations, Local Authority Arts department, The Arts Council, Fáilte Ireland, etc. When they apply, or enquire about these grants they will be informed of the criteria by which they will be eligible. In most cases the rules and requirements will be freely available and accessable. They will make an application, outlining in detail the plans for the event, budget, organisers, and many other details. Does this sound familiar so far?? If the application is successful, you will be informed of how the grant will be paid, ie half before and the remainder after the event, ON PRODUCTION OF FULL ACCOUNTS AND A DETAILED REPORT. The funding bodies publish lists of successfull applicants All very hard work you'll agree, but fair - very fair. You make your pitch and if it is deserving and if the money is there you will get grant aid. Among its other duties, the newly established Meitheal regional organisations are tasked with distributing C.C.E. within the organisation. Is the Meitheal organisation elected by the members? No. Do they publish guidelines for who can apply? No. Do they publish the application criteria? No. Is there an application form? No. How is the grant paid out and when? Well we dont know. Do Metheal insist on a detailed set of income and expenditure accounts? Dont know? Do C.C.E. publish a list of successfull applicants? No. See what i'm getting to? There is no accountability. The money is a personal slush fund to be distributed as the old guard desires. Any branch who don't toe the line or dare to criticise the Old Guard, will simply be ignored re funding. Oh and dont forget to invite the old guard to the launch banquet also or else!! And remember folks this is YOUR money. Your hard earned taxes. Before a hundred of you jump down my throat, I am not saying that the branches or the event organisers don't deserve their funds. I am saying that if the systems, checks and balances are not there then it will be corrupt. It has to be by human nature. I hope that someone reading this will bring this situation to the attention of the relevant government department, or perhaps someone from Comhaltas HQ can enlighten us further |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Observer Date: 20 Jun 08 - 08:23 PM Thanks Nerd for your rational posts which went a long way to shedding some light on this interminable and tiresome debate. I think Jim showed his true colours with his statement in an earlier post "we are talking about traditional music - you know - the one that receives virtually not a penny in the UK." - maybe he'd prefer we return to the old days of "give Paddy a pint and he'll play all night" where the Irish Arts Council paid out 0.9% of their funds to traditional music and the other 99.1% to the so called higher arts. Fair play to Comhaltas and Labhrás if they can get funds for new and improved traditional arts centres and to hell with the begrudgers! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Nerd Date: 20 Jun 08 - 06:42 PM As I said, I will drop this now. Rant away, Jim! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jun 08 - 03:28 PM "there isn't really any evidence of anything illegal." Neither is there evidence to the contrary - CCE is such a closed shop that even Labhras' closest collegues have been unable to find out how much he or his wife earns (see Breandán's earlier posting) - I don't know any politicians with that privilege. I asked if CCE have a library - and received no reply. If they have, where is it housed and what access is there to it; if they haven't - did they return the grant they received to establish one? It is inconceivable that a music organisation can exist for over half a century without either a library or sound archive, yet I have been unable to discover the existence of either. "Are charities [in Ireland] not required to keep books and publish accounts," I don't know - they certainly are in the UK. If they aren't in Ireland, how else are we to know that the large sums of public money aren't being misused or misappropriated? "Labhras's personality is a two-edged sword," I am not interested in Labhras's personality (though I was interested to note that you appear to be familiar with it). I am interested in the fact that he appears to be answerable to no-one. "His hand in the public purse, for the most part, has helped the music thrive." That is not the case. Twenty odd years ago Irish music could have disappeared without the existence of CCE. Now it is surviving very well without - some would say, in spite of it. Don't take my word for it - read Labhras's Oireachtais report on Irish music, which was even unacceptable to his political collegues and had to be shelved. I'll happily supply you with some of the many protests that greeted its publication. Beandán Breathnach put it beautifully when he described Comhaltas as "an organisation with a great future behind it". "if there were a Labhras-like figure in the UK, the funding situation for traditional music might be better." This appears to assume that the money received is being spent wisely - while some of us believe it isn't - the extreme secrecy surrounding CCEs finances make it impossible to discover whether our suspicions are correct or not. The point of this thread is that Labhras is answerable to nobody, CCE membership, the taxpayer, his own committee. He is a political appointee for life, should wish to be. The situation appears to exist that if he wakes up tomorrow morning, spills his coffee, burns his toast and stubs his toe - he can expel a couple of branches to make himself feel better. The sad thing is that many rank and file members will support his doing so. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Nerd Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:39 PM Jim, I'll just drop this angle after this post, as I sense you are misunderstanding me. You keep making insinuations, and I keep trying to rein them in, pointing out that there isn't really any evidence of anything illegal. I just wish you'd stop because insinuating financial wrongdoing on this list isn't productive and only fans the flames. Also, in the end, we can bloviate endlessly here about whether comhaltas has broken any rules or laws. It won't change either the facts of the case or the outcome. As to your questions, "are charities [in Ireland] not required to keep books and publish accounts," I don't know. Do you? If you do, why not tell us which laws you think they are breaking, instead of dealing in innuendos? I do know the laws in the US. Here, if they got this much money, they would be required to commission an audit and submit the report to the Federal Government. (Additional state requirements depend on the individual State.) In the US, there is also a public disclosure requirement, but the law only requires that the information be available on a paper form called a Form 990 during business hours to anyone who turns up at the head office. The same may well be true in Ireland, in which case you'd have to go to the head office to get this information. When I said that many other arts organizations outside the trad arts realm have a larger budget, I wasn't trying to change the subject. I was pointing out that your insinuation that a large budget must mean that Comhaltas is violating its not-for-profit status is pretty nonsensical, because other non-profits have way more money and aren't in violation of any laws. Finally, the issue you describe very well here: "It is also an organisation which has a hand permanently in the public purse, thanks to the position and influence of a leader who is happy to exploit that position to guarantee it remains there..." is one that will be familiar to many who have worked in such organizations. Labhras's personality is a two-edged sword, because, make no mistake, that is often exactly the type of personality you NEED running such an organization to ensure it gets its share of funding. It cannot have been a bad thing for Irish traditional music to have had such a driving force running comhaltas. His hand in the public purse, for the most part, has helped the music thrive. Think of it this way: on the one hand you lament that in the UK traditional music gets no funding. On the other you lambaste Labhras for muscling up to the public purse in Ireland and wresting away money for traditional music. There is a bit of a disconnect here, in the sense that if there were a Labhras-like figure in the UK, the funding situation for traditional music might be better. Sadly, the other side of Labhras's personality type is that when it comes in conflict with others in the organization, the results can be ugly, as in this case. So we can agree on the unpleasant aspects of his character. But that's often the package: a strong leader who will succeed externally in raising the profile of their chosen art form, also has a hard time playing well with others within his own organization. (Cecil Sharp was a classic example of this as well.) This pattern is not a coincidence; it's a common personality type. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jun 08 - 01:53 AM "They seem big for trad arts, certainly, but there are organizations doing classical music with a far greater budget". What on earth are you trying to prove Nerd? - we are talking about traditional music - you know - the one that receives virtually not a penny in the UK. We are also talking about an organisation which has a hand permanently in the public purse, thanks to the position and influence of a leader who is happy to exploit that position to guarantee it remains there. It should be remembered that the figures quoted in the article are now 16 years old and will now much exceed that, thanks to 'The Action of The Tiger' - but none of us are privy to that information. We wouldn't be having this discussion if C.C.E. published its accounts, or is that another of your items 'not wanted on voyage? Perhaps you can tell us - are charities not required to keep books and publish accounts? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Nerd Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:31 PM Just to clarify my own position, I'm not really defending Comhaltas. It's just that each new development in the story, such as Labhras refusing mediation, is trumpeted on this list as fresh evidence of wrongdoing, when it actually proves nothing either way. And weird innuendoes are made about comhaltas's "not-for-profit" status involving what is really a question of budgets, not of profiteering. For the record, there is no legal or broadly-accepted distinction between a nonprofit organization and a not-for-profit one. In general, these are two terms for the same thing...some people prefer one term and some the other. It is perfectly acceptable and even desirable for a non-profit or not-for-profit to accumulate funds to carry over from year to year, thus technically operating at a profit. If they don't do this, they become extremely vulnerable at the turn of the fiscal year if a grant or other revenue stream falls through. One organization I used to work for had to lay everyone off and re-hire them two months later! Jim, getting millions of government euros doesn't constitute profit, nor is it "stretching" the not-for-profit distinction. If the organization spends that money to meet its goals, and even if it invests money to spend on its goals next year (thus operating at a profit for a given year), it generally doesn't break the rules. Nor is paying the staff of an organization a salary considered profit. The distinction (if anyone is interested) is that the money brought in by a not-for-profit organization cannot be distributed among shareholders, owners or officers. It is held by the corporation and must be spent in the advancement the corporation's goals. Staff members may earn set salaries, but they may not share in profits, as in a for-profit company. This allows an organization like Comhaltas to accumulate money for several years before starting a project like the Clasac centre. Once again, it is possible to make assumptions based on the name "not-for-profit," and try to make the perfectly routine operation of such an organization sound sinister. It's possible to make it sound like an organization is profiteering because it receives "millions" in grants. But the figures quoted above are really not a huge amount of money in the arts world, and they're small in overall government budgets. They seem big for trad arts, certainly, but there are organizations doing classical music with a far greater budget. As for Jim's suggestion that I didn't mention "music" enough in my last post, in fact what I spoke of were "arts," and I mentioned that this was about "arts" management and "arts" centres and "arts" organizations many times in my post. Although comhaltas's name mentions musicians, it is devoted not only to music but to dance and language arts as well. It is a classic arts organization, shares similar goals with other arts organizations, and is governed by the same rules that govern others. Those rules allow it to accumulate money for multi-year projects, pay staff, and top up pension plans without violating its not-for-profit status. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:36 PM good post, Jim. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM Re CCEs 'not for profit' status: While having a sort-out of old magazines and books I came across an article in Phoenix Magazine, Dec 6th 2002, by 'Goldhawk' under the general heading of 'Pillars of Society' which deals with, among other things, CCEs financial status. This is an extract: "Patricia Quinn et al viewed this a way for CCE to get on the arts funding gravy train to complement its income from the, which is supposed to be ring-fenced for promoting the Irish language. This year CCE got €500,000 from this source (Department of Gaeltacht) and, indeed, Ó Murchú has proved very effective at tapping the public purse and is a consistent recipient of Cultural Relations Committee funding for US events. Also, Brú Ború in Cashel -one of a number of Comhaltas centres around the country - managed to land no less than €1.5 million from Bord Fáilte to build an underground theatre. There was a further €650,000 from the Department of Arts last year for this project which was officially opened by Síle Dev........ Comhaltas regularly claims to have 400 branches even if some of these are very small indeed. Nevertheless, the organisation is a very successful one and although the accounts are not published, Goldhawk can reveal that there were accumulated profits of €1.5 million at the end of last year. "Wages, pension, travel and subsistence" amounted to €550,000 (including a top-up sum for pensions). The biggest single element here would be Ó Murchú's salary although the senator refused to elucidate Goldhawk on the amount he takes out of his organisation every year...... Ó Murchú's ability to use the Seanad to push the interests of CCE was never clearer than with the passage of the Copyright Bill in 1999 which was initially opposed by the senator despite the fact that the Government was pushing it through. In this case, he put Comhaltas before FF but in a most Machiavellian manner, managed to end up onside at the end of the day after tying up a very unusual deal with the Irish Music Rights Organisation (IMRO) whereby CCE was issued a blanket licence "to cover all official Comhaltas functions". The Letter of Agreement also stated that IMRO would fund CCE to the tune of €63,500 annually and also provided for an annual €32,000 subvention for the Brú Ború venue run by Ó Murchú's wife, Una. No other CCE centre was mentioned. In return, CCE agreed "to support IMRO's submission to the Department of Enterprise, Trade & Employment in relation to the proposed Copyright Bill". In other words, Ó Murchú did a U-turn on his stance on the Bill but only when he protected CCE from the clutches of IMRO. Clearly, other traditional music bodies - outsiders in his eyes - could fend for themselves." I also found a publication called 'Comhaltas 1968, which carried an article entitled 'A Library of Traditional Music'. The article states that CCE had just received a grant towards the establishment of such a library. Can anybody tell me if a library or archive exists, as if so, where they are housed? If there are such facilities, how are they indexed and how can they be accessed? In addition to all this, of course, are the collosal grants awarded to the organisation last year for capital projects. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jun 08 - 02:34 AM The 'not for profit' tag now stretches in to many €millions in the form of grants from the public purse. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Fiddleruairi Date: 17 Jun 08 - 07:17 PM thanks for clearing that up declan! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Declan Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:56 PM Ruarai, Comhaltas would be described as a "not for profit" organisation, rather than a non-profitmaking one. Some "not for profit" organisations actually make large amounts of profit. The disctinction is that not for profit orgs are supposed to be primarily motivated by considerations other than profit - in the case of Comhaltas that would be (you might expect) the promotion of the music. Labhrás and Co would do well to remember that. Comhaltas was founded by a group of musicians whose main interest was promotion of the music, the survival of which was under a real thrat at the time. Through the efforts of these people and others the music is now thriving and thankfully is in no danger of dissappearing any time soon. However the current leadership of Comhaltas can claim little credit for this situation. They have lost their way a long time ago and those interested in the survival of Comhaltas (personally I don't care too much about whether it does or not) would do well to do something about that. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Fiddleruairi Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:18 AM i haven't been on this in a while but i was reading some very interesting comments below and thought i might as well share some more of my views. i (think) i understand what nerd is saying but i do agree with the point that it should be about the promotion of music. the sole purpose of the clasac centre is to promote music, that is the whole point of its existance. but because of this controversey i for one do not know how on earth the centre is going to be run. I can't see any of the dublin branches, let alone clontarf, using the building for their personal use and i can't see people coming up from other branches around the country to use it because it doesn't make sense with the commuting and all. The use of it for concerts is also seriously in doubt, people that are asked to play may not due to the circumstances and im sure that people in the dublin area won't attend such concerts in protest. this is surely not just damaging for the promotion of music in dublin but for music in general. it is also logistically insane to try and run such a centre when you have a good idea that people probably wont avail of its services due to the ongoing controversey. how are comhaltas going to pay employees and bills and such if they have no sizeable income? if the head organisation are not going to try to resolve the clontarf issue from a principles point of view than maybe they should just consider it from a business point of view because that clearly makes sense. you have to question what advice cce are getting on the situation business wise. labhras' comparison with the GAA and sending offs is a bit wide of the mark. it would be closer if he compared it to the GAA dissolving a local GAA club like the crokes or na fianna, because that is what clontarf is in terms of CCE. also it is a bit much to be complaining about being personally attacked and criticised if you are a senator (or whatever he is). how can you expect to be untouchable and not criticised if you are in such a powerful position? the only thing i can think of is that the 40 years of power has clouded his judgement and he is becoming more disillusioned. there is also good reason for his critics to remark on his peformance due to past ridiculous decisions made by himself and the ard comhairle. i just have one question for you nerd that i'd like to know the answer to, if i made a donation to a charity organisation for example concern that works in africa, do i have a right to know where and how my money is being used? and do i have a right to access their bank accounts seeing as they are a publicly funded and non profit making organsation? if you could clear that up it would be great! finally, i dont know about anyone else, but i really dont think comhaltas is a 'non-profit making organisation'! cce clearly makes a huge profit, you only have to look at the amount of money made from the fleadh, bru boru and other such ventures. it is also widely known that cce has millions in the coffers, so why is this term used? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Frank F. Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:07 AM Nerd The local politicians you refer to are the councillors for the area. As the site that Clasac was built on is owned by Dublin City Council and leased to Comhaltas at a negligible rate the councillors have a very direct interest in this controversy. One question for you! Do you think that the Dept of Arts, Sport and Tourism would have given funded the Clasac development had they known beforehand that it would have had the direct and almost immediate consequence of dissolving a vibrant branch of over 400 members thereby putting at risk the promotion and propagation of Irish music and culture in Dublin and beyond? (And it is a direct consequence - without funding there would be no clasac and without clasac there would be no dissolution!) |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Cathal Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:54 AM Nerd, You wrote < My understanding is that the site for the Clasach centre was given to Clontarf by the City Council. Surely that gives the Lord Mayor and the local councillors every right to get involved in trying to restore local involvement in the centre? By refusing to accept the councillors offer of mediation, Labhras just keeps digging himself into a deeper hole . |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:13 AM Nerd 2 responses Still don't know what 'rights' - apart from "come in, sit down, shut up" - a member has. 2 isn't there a word missing from your reply - how about "music" - which is what it is supposed to be about. You may not know who is wrong or right - some of us have been here before when it was blatantly about politics, and when it was swept under the carpet - thanks to the lack of democracy you appear to either actively support or be an apologist for. If, as you appear to be saying, there is no democracy in Comhaltas, nor the need for it, surely a second - best step would be a mediator - or is that out of the question also? In many quarters O'Murchú is referred to as 'Chairman Lao' (for the non-Irish - Labhras is pronounced 'Lowros'. Now where did I put my little red book! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Nerd Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:03 PM I'm not being over-simple at all, Jim. In fact, I'm trying to recognize the complexities of arts management in the nonprofit world. The oversimple thing is just saying "this situation is bad; comhaltas isn't democratic." The complicated thing is figuring out if it should be, and if so, what to do about it. All I'm saying is that different organizations are organized differently, and that (1) there is no legal obligation for a membership organization to be organized as a democracy and (2) many are less democratic than CCE. Thus, wondering "how could this happen?" doesn't make a lot of sense. Furthermore, there are good historical and practical reasons why such organizations aren't democracies. As the Captain points out, membership already comes with benefits, and people join in order to access those benefits. If the benefits aren't good enough, no one is forced to join. It's not like a country, where you are forced to pay the taxes even if you disagree with the government! Right now, the vast majority of members will stay with the organization no matter what happens with Clontarf, because the benefits are worth it to them. Some such organizations give members some form of "voting" rights, others don't. Whether we should change the law to force the issue is a question for the Houses of the Oireachtas, and ultimately the voters. As Bonnie says, that option is certainly possible. However, you are being simplistic if you think all non-profit organizations with members who contribute money should be democracies, and if you think you could create legislation to ensure that. I tend to agree with you that Comhaltas could use more democracy, not less. But that's different from saying that there's some kind of legal "accountability" requirement. If that requirement were enacted for all nonprofit membership organizations, it would be a logistical nightmare that would cripple many small organizations. For most such organizations, "members" are really just contributors who derive some benefits from their contributions--like, say, getting a program guide from a local arts centre, or a newsletter from a local historical society. If an arts centre decides to fire a popular manager, or to move to a new building, the membership does not get to vote on this, generally speaking. If membership DID vote on such decisions, most organizations would shut their doors. Politicians have the lure of actual power calling them to run for office. Imagine if you had to "run" for a low-paid, arts administrator job and could be voted out after a couple of years for not doing what the current membership wants. Or, imagine if you had job security, but had to enact whatever program plans were voted in by the members, so you'd just be a "rubber stamp." No one with any sense would take such a job. Because of this, it would not be workable to organize most arts organizations as democracies. The problem with legislating something like this separately for comhaltas is figuring out the legal grounds on which to claim that comhaltas differs from other organizations who could not survive being that democratic. This is a very complicated proposition. Finally, I think you are once again not only oversimplifying but in fact distorting the facts in your posts. When you say that Labhras refused "the services" of a mediator, it sounds like a friendly offer of service was made by a trusted mediator. In fact, when you read the article, you find out what happened: some local politicians, including the Mayor, tried to force both sides to recognize the authority of an outside mediator. This is an "offer" that is bound to be "accepted" by whoever has lost this round of the fight (they have nothing to lose by accepting), and "rejected" by whoever has won (they have nothing to gain by accepting). What Labhras rejected was the notion that politicians who aren't part of comhaltas should be allowed to tell the organization what to do. He is making a claim that the comhaltas constitution is authority enough. His position is understandable. One, he practically HAS to say that, or he is voting "no confidence" in the system that has kept him Chief Executive for 40 years. Two, he's probably right, legally. But anything can happen, and the more politicians get involved, the more likely he is to cave and accept mediation, especially if the politicos can make it hard for the Clasac Centre to function. As you say, his rejecting the imposition of legally-binding mediation isn't surprising. But it doesn't prove that Comhaltas is wrong. It also doesn't prove that Clontarf is right, or even that they're negotiating in good faith. It just proves that the former Clontarf branch is trying to find a way to reverse the ardchomairle's decision, and that Comhaltas doesn't want it reversed. Wait, we knew that already, didn't we? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,caitlín Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:42 PM I think this is an example of in-built appeal: > "CCÉ chief executive Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú told The Irish Times last week a mediated settlement was not possible under the rules of the organisation." Why not? Because it isn't, that's why. It's where you don't have to prove anything to anyone but yourselves. It's where the rank and file pay their dues but can't change things for years at a time. It's where a politician can stay in power for 40 years and do whatever he likes with no outside restraint. And then he whines and snivels about being criticised. Poor baby. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Emmo Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:47 PM According to the Irish Times - Mr Ó Murchú insisted the ardchomhairle's decision involved an "in-built appeal". Lads, tell me, what's an "in-built appeal"? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Guest-North Dublin Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:05 PM Dear Stringman, I found your blog of 13th June '08 very interesting but disturbing reading? Why am I not surprised? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM Mr Ó Murchú, a Fianna Fáil senator who has led Comhaltas for more than 40 years, accused his critics of personalising the issue and of abusing him personally. Has he been abused on this thread? heres one, President ,Labhrás ó Murchú, (known affectionately here as 'Larry-The Lab Rat') ballisticated, claiming that ALL money raised by branches which was not needed for local organisation, automatically belonged to Head Office. probably best to avoid any more comments like this. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: knight_high Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:06 PM From Irish Times 16th June 2008 Comhaltas rejects call for mediator in dispute over €11m music centre PAUL CULLEN COMHALTAS CEOLTÓIRÍ Éireann, the body that promotes traditional music, has rejected calls for a mediator to be appointed to resolve an internal dispute over an €11 million music centre in Clontarf, Dublin. A weekend meeting of the Comhaltas ardchomhairle discussed the dispute with its Clontarf branch, which it has dissolved, but did not accede to requests for the appointment of a mediator. The organisation now intends to open the Clasach arts centre on East Wall Road in the autumn without the co-operation of most local members. Dublin lord mayor Paddy Bourke and other local councillors had asked CCÉ to agree to mediation. Saturday's ardchomhairle meeting also received a written request for mediation from the branch itself. CCÉ chief executive Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú told The Irish Times last week a mediated settlement was not possible under the rules of the organisation. In May, its annual conference had confirmed the original decision by the ardchomhairle in March to dissolve the branch and this decision excluded the possibility of mediation. Mr Ó Múrchú likened the situation to the administration of the GAA: "If some of the Dublin players were sent off in a match, the GAA would hardly pay heed to councillors asking them to review the decision. So why should we?" Both sides have traded allegations in the dispute. Comhaltas has accused the Clontarf branch of leaving contractors on the building unpaid and of wrongfully applying for a VAT refund. Rejecting these claims, the branch alleged head office wrested control of the building after its members had "done all the hard work", and that it withdrew support for previously agreed loans. Mr Ó Murchú, a Fianna Fáil senator who has led Comhaltas for more than 40 years, accused his critics of personalising the issue and of abusing him personally. Maurice Mullen, chair of the dissolved branch, said Clontarf members had been given no right of appeal. He called for a "courageous conversation" on the issues. Mr Ó Murchú insisted the ardchomhairle's decision involved an "in-built appeal". |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:31 AM I read in this morning's Irish Times that the Comhaltas leadership has refused the services of a mediator in its negotiations with Clontarf - can anybody tell me why I am not surprised? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Castle kelly Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM Clasac is a centre with a social obligation to the people in the surrounding areas. It is meant to have an outreach programme for the benefit of the local community. It has already alienated the people of clontarf and elsewhere who are involved in traditional music/arts and and as a result it is in a position where it would have little or no local support. If you alienate all of the traditional local community then how will it work as a profit making business? How will it use its' revenue to promote trad music song and dance. Clasac has to operate as a profit making business in order to survive and to do this it needs the local traditional community. Balm is needed to heal wounds,trying to damage people's reputations cannot improve the situation. Local politicians have a role to play and should be to the fore of seeking a solution. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:16 AM The benefits of membership :The cost of entering competitions is cheaper.children can participate in music making and socialise with other children in a safe environment,. by becoming amember you are helping to strengthen an organisation that while it has many faults also does much good. members are free to become involved as branch treasurer, secretary ,publicity officer etc,it is actually up to people to get involved and try and change things from grass roots level. of course that is much easier said than done[and thats an understatement] what needs to happen is that less power should be given to the central body and more to the regional branches.Dick Miles |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:15 AM Nerd, Once again, I find your over-simplification on the question of democracy, well - oversimple. An organsiation divided into branches suggests that the members of those branches have some sort of say in the policy and running of the organsisation - other than the raising of the arm to salute the leader. If I join an organisation I want to know my voice is going to be heard and my money is going to be used for the purposes intended. Are you saying that that does not, and need not exist in CCE? If this is the case, what is the role of a member. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:07 PM You don't need to explain it. We can see for ourselves that they obviously are not accountable to anyone and they obviously are not a democracy. That in itself speaks volumes. Since when should the status quo not be questioned and imbalances in power/resources remain unchallenged? If they haven't broken any laws - and they probably haven't - all it tells me is that it's time to take another look at the laws. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Nerd Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:14 PM Stringman, I have no axe to grind in all this. I don't care if Comhaltas is a democracy or not; I know that it's not and indeed cannot be. I agree that the human cost is staggering. But I still think there is culpability on both sides. That's all I'm saying. My other responses are mainly to the people who keep stating that Comhaltas is not a democracy, and seems not to be accountable to anyone, and that therefore they've broken some law. I'm just trying to explain that this is probably not the case, and that I will be very surprised if they are found to have broken any law or even any of their own bylaws. Time will tell, of course. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Stringman Date: 13 Jun 08 - 05:59 PM Nerd, whether or not Comhaltas is a democracy in a distraction from the central issue. The Clontarf branch overran their budget to the tune of 2 million. They produced a business plan and needed the executive to act as guarantor on the loan , which Clontarf were willing to shoulder. For whatever reasons, the member of the ard comhairle involved with the Clasach project declined to do this. At an E.G.M to present their case to Clontarf, the ard stiurthóir of my organisation delivered a rant to the people present, which offended them greatly, and being articulate and intelligent they were having none of it. The dissolution stems from this event. To my mind in an act of personal vengeance at the lack of respect accorded to Labhrás, Paddy Kelly and others, the ard stiurthóir personally initiated the dissolution of Clontarf. I have spoken to some of the members of the the county board who were involved in this process. They said they were brought into a room and had a meeting with Labhrás, who alerted them to "the problem", and who showed them documentation to substantiate his position. I suggested that they might have asked for Clontarf's side of the story and in fairness, they accepted what they were shown at face value. Labhras instructed the county board to dissolve Clontarf, and the board felt they had no choice but to do this. This is how your model of a corporation is working. To assume it can function as a transparent democracy is naive, as most organisations are run by its executive officers. Labhrás O'Murchú has been central to the dissolution of Clontarf. This had nothing to do with vat refunds, taking control of assets of Clasach or anything of that nature. Another distraction. The decision of the ardstiurthoir to dissolve Clontarf has done incredible damage to the work and mission of Comhaltas. I say this foremost as a musician, but also as a card carrying member of Comhaltas, a committee member, music promoter etc. I felt that the whole project was too big for one branch in the first place, however Labhrás was happy to let them go ahead. Music is about people, and the creation of community in a world that is becoming more alienating. Some of us would rather work with the Clontarf's of this world, and with the Labhrás' also to create these connections between people. An offer of mediation sprung from this desire to avoid all that has happened in the public domain, which has discredited the efforts of all of us who promote music. Whether the offer was from a truly independent source, or one more favourable to one side than the other, well who's to say. Some of us care deeply enough about this to look at and listen to both sides, without trying to score clever points with clever arguments. The mediation was offered to help solve this "in house", but that channel was declined. In the overall scheme of things for Comhaltas worldwide, Clontarf may be just very small spuds. But the human cost in the way these people were treated is enormous.To the best of my knowledge only three members of the Ard Comhairle have questioned the ard stiúrthóir on this .Staggering, even for a'corporation' that has met many times to discuss this issue. Your suggestion that the former Clontarf sue the members of the Ard Comhairle, I think this has already happened. All members of the Ard Comhairle received a solicitor's letter in the past two days. Also, the accusation in the press release from the Ard Comhairle referring to the exploitation of children by the former Clontarf branch is totally unacceptable. This kind of language has no place in an organisation seeking to promote music in children. It casts a shadow over the work we do in our branches to foster a climate where children can join our organisations in safety. This is the wrong message from the Ard Comhairle. The involvement of children in protesting outside congress was done in a dignified and non hostile manner. All credit to the leadership in Clontarf, for this. Children are often involved in branch activities, and the ard comhairle was happy to let them busk for 15 years to raise the funds for Clasach! Some of us will keep hoping that eventually sense will prevail, and if only for the good of the organisation and its image, Clontarf's dissolution will be overturned by the Dublin County Board at some future date. Now if you want to explore the manipulation of the county board Nerd, and the use of the Bunreacht as a whipping tool,you have material for months of work ahead of you. Beir bua. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Nerd Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:10 AM Jim, you could be right about the "seizure of premises" part. This would depend on the way the law views a branch of CCE, and I just don't know. If branches are separate legal entities with their own articles of incorporation, and if the Clontarf branch was in fact part-owner of the Centre, then the national organization could be breaking the law by seizing it. But if the branches are, legally speaking, merely parts of Comhaltas, as Comhaltas asserts, then Comhaltas can't "seize" their "property," because Comhaltas technically already owned it. (This would be like a management company reorganizing and eliminating a branch office that managed a block of flats, bringing that building under the wing of the central office. Five people might lose their jobs, but the company didn't seize anything it didn't own already. We might have sympathy for the folks whose jobs were lost, but the government won't step in to do anything about it...) |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Gulliver Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:51 AM Declan wrote: I'm sure it will be brilliant. I thought Niamh Parsons was, but when I said it to her, she said: "I bet you say that to all the girls!" Well, emmm.... |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 13 Jun 08 - 05:46 AM if you are a member WHO is on the county board,you have a little more power. as a member of Skibbereen branch,All that I can do is[apart from signing the petition which I have done] is raise the matter at the Skibbereen agm in November [under any other business]. every branch will vary as to how they are run,some of them seem to be run by families,and are almost a personal feifdom. on the other hand both my local branches do a lot to encourage music making among children,which is why[For the moment] I will continue to be a member. I do not think CCE have handled this well,I am not happy about the Clontarf situation.Dick Miles |
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