BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:59 PM

Sorry, Phot, but IMHO the RoE permit you to use deadly force if threatened with same.

And your views about falsehood are illogical.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:23 PM

I wouldn't trust the Iranian government to tell the truth any more than I would trust the UK or USA governments, to name just two. But when it comes to invading other countries the Iranians do have a great deal less form.

What I'm not clear in this incident is whether the disagreement is about where the rubber dinghies were when the sailors were detained, or about where the border is.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:31 PM

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I'll see your question marks and raise you ?.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:28 PM

Well said Phot.
"Even if they were guilty, the confession can not be true" ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:12 PM

I don't trust the Iranian Government full stop. They are pissing around with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:09 PM

Don't we all. It's tax time here.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Phot
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:42 PM

I don't trust the government, and I work for them!!

Chris.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 03:16 PM

Committing the sin of posting to the thread title without reading all the thread - I'll be back! 1) Bully for the Brits for not turning it into a shooting war 2) Taking military people who are engaged in their duties in foreign territory isn't kidnapping, even if they weren't on your soil - 3) Seems everybody knew that particular territory was "disputed" so I hope nobody's surprised that all of the parties to the dispute claim it as theirs 4) (well, 1.5 really) hope they all come home safely.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 03:13 PM

Interesting Chris.

A lot of people on this site don't trust the government and feel they are second guessing what the news media actually tell us is going on.

I'm sure we would all be interested in your analysis of what the situation is.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 03:06 PM

The last time I checked the territorial waters of the UK did not extend to the Persian Gulf, let alone the disputed Ras al-Beesha waterway.

That being said I would hope that cooler heads will prevail and that the sailors and marines will be returned in a week or so.

"No bacon and no bangers" might make a good chorus.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Phot
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 03:01 PM

Having done two back to back tours out there last year I have read this thread with total disbelief, do any of you know what the hell you are talking about?!

Terribus, the ships boarding party is not commanded by "some very junior officer" it is an experienced Lieutenant who is deputy head of the warfare department. The boarding party is divided into two parts, Green(Royal Marines with their own CO who will be a Captain) and Blue(Ships boarding party who have been trained for that role)

Skipy, if you are suggesting that the response to a kidnapp situation, and all the worlds troubles in the Middle East would be sorted out by a neuclear strike, I suggest you take the first train back to planet Zog, cause that's where you seem to be coming from!

Richard Bridge, the guys out there are governed by very strict Rules of Engagement(RoE) unless you are coming under direct fire you are not allowed to ues deadly force(There are other RoE in theater but they concern ships, also the other members of the coalition have their own RoE)

If I seem a bit pi**ed off and have singled out a few people for spouting off you are wrong, I'm furious!

Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 02:30 PM

Shed a tear for the detainees-
No bacon and no bangers while they are hostage.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 02:23 PM

The Iranians are adamant that the prisoners have confessed to deliberately entering Iranian waters.
Every serviceman and woman knows, when captured, to give name, number and blood group only.
Even if they were guilty, the confession can not be true.
We can be sure that the iranians are lying. It is just a question of how much.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 01:31 PM

"Paradoxically, preserving liberty may require the rule of a single leader—a dictator—willing to use those dreaded 'extraordinary measures,' which few know how, or are willing, to employ."

quote
Michael Ledeen,
White House advisor and fellow of the American Enterprise Institute

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:51 AM

hypothetical
EYES ONLY
American Enterprise Institute
memo to Dick Cheney:

The more succesful motivations for a public to desire war have been acts of terrorism and kidnapping on the high seas. Due to the remoteness of the crime there are few problems regarding witnesses or enhancement of the facts.
A record of repeated incidents culminating in a sensationalized act of kidnapping, terror and torture have been demograghicly tested and show that the most effective victims are ; (in order of effectivness) kidnapping of the commander and chief, his family, his extended family, young women, high government officials, their families, and lastly sevicemen.
The most reproducible scenario would be the reported kidnapping of the first lady and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:19 AM

There wouldn't be any point asking Margaret Beckett to wear a veil - nobody would care who saw her.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:54 AM

The exact line of the border is disputed.
Both sides might believe that they are right.
The Iranian action seems excessive.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:26 AM

Is it true that the Iran delegation asked Margaret Beckett to wear a veil?.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:27 AM

"Even if the UK forces were hopelessly outgunned, so what? Isn't fighting and dying what soldiers do - part of the job description?"

Yes - who does Tommy Atkins think he is, choosing not to throw his worthless life away when the honour of the Empire is at stake? Doesn't he realize he is mere cannon fodder? I'd see every manjack o' them hanged! Let the wogs have'm, I say - Gunga Din's a better man than any ten of'm! A fine show this lot would have made at the Charge of the Light Brigade ...

"Is it right that there is really nothing we can do, other than wait for the diplomatic ransom demand to arrive?"

Perhaps there IS "more" that could be done - but perhaps "more" is neither sensible nor expedient. We still don't know much about this incident. There's a lot of idle sputtering going on here ...

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:23 AM

Its a ploy by Blair & Bush, so they have an excuse to nuke Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:16 AM

wrong century for the war of jenkin's ear......can't believe people would buy it.

mind you - some people discern artistic integrity in the Living Tradition...!

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:10 AM

There are a number of things that look odd.

1. In these days of SatNav it is hard to imagine that the position of the vessels is not readily determinable to within yards. But we do not know whether the Iranian position is that the UK vessels were the wrong side of an agreed border, or that the border is somehere other than where others think it is (Iceland, anyone?)

2. Do we know what the Iranian force was? Were the UK forces really hopelessly outgunned.

3. Even if the UK forces were hopelessly outgunned, so what? Isn't fighting and dying what soldiers do - part of the job description? Or did they have orders that precluded fighting an invading force (for, if the event was in Iraqi water, that is what the Iraninans were). By way of comparison, what would an Israeli force have done if they stopped a truck to inspect for weapons near but outside Gaza, and a large Hezbollah or Hamas force jumped them?

4. Why did the Cornwall, with all of the modern technology at her command, not know of the approaching attack force before the event happened, and warn the UK force in time for it to depart in haste (those inflatables are often VERY fast)?

5. Why, indeed, was the Cornwall not between the dhow and Iranian water?

6. Did the Iranian vessels approach from Iranian water, or had they previously been, unlawfully, in Iraqi water?

7. How is it that, in these days of spy satellites, we do not even seem to know what the Iranian force was?

8. Why have the Iranians no fear, it would seem, of the technically superior UK armed might in general?

9. Why have the Iranians no need, it would seem, of any economic or other benefit Iran currently receives from or via the UK?

10. Is it right that there is really nothing we can do, other than wait for the diplomatic ransom demand to arrive?

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 03:22 AM

Bearing in mind that a ship's boarding party is normally under the command of a very junior officer (Midshipman, or Sub-Lieutenant) and very lightly armed I don't think fighting presented itself as an option.

During the Borneo Confrontation a 'Ton' Class Minesweeper, HMS Cheriton (IIRC) had a Sampan loaded with explosives go-up alongside during a board-and-search operation. Cheriton lost both of her Midshipmen that night - one blew his head off with a 2" Mortar illuminating the Sampan, then when the ship went alongside, the second Mid jumped down into the Sampan and set of a bobby-trap. After that, the lessons learned were for the mother ship to lay off one quarter, send one boat with the boarding party and another boat with a fire support group to position itself of the target vessel's other quarter. In that way all arcs of fire were covered and the minimum number of your own people were put at risk.

Can't think what the Commanding Officer of HMS Cornwall was up to, they obviously weren't keeping a very close eye on things, otherwise 'Cornwall' should always have been in position between the vessel being searched and the direction of greatest danger, i.e. the Iranian boats would have had to have passed HMS Cornwall to get to the boarding party. Irrespective of position 'Cornwall' should have challenged the Iranian boats on their approach.

No doubt more will come to light as the situation becomes clearer.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 12:33 AM

We've already seen a little "testament to human insanity" on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: number 6
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 12:25 AM

I'm another one who 'thinks so' skipy .... but I hope it will never come to that.

"If it does it will be the biggest testament to human insanity ever seen. "

And I also certainly agree on that statement.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 09:06 PM

Agreed.


(I assumed Skipy was being ironic in his initial post ... yikes ... ).

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 08:39 PM

Well, I sure don't know that it will. If it does it will be the biggest testament to human insanity ever seen.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:50 PM

I think so too Skipy.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: skipy
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:48 PM

Amos, o/k you are right, saying ALL is wrong of me, a % of us know it will come to this, what % well you choose, but it WILL come to this all the same, sadly, but IT WILL.
Regards Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: folk1e
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:46 PM

IF Iran has been paying for others to "target" Brittish troops, is anyone surprised at this turn of events?
The Iranian ambassador has been summoned to a talk with Hazel Blears' flunky ...... Bet that scared him eh?
This is a cultural divide! Talking and one upmanship are second nature to them. Remember someone talking about the "mother of all wars"? I suspect a short "release them or we will ..... " would be more effective, if not this time then the next! Maybe that is what has happened anyway (just not admitting it)!
Violence is the first recourse of the enept!

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:49 PM

Skipy:

We "all" know no such thing. Are you talking to the voices in your skull?

In fact, we ALL know we must not do any such thing. At ANY point.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: skipy
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:21 PM

We all KNOW that at some point we WILL HAVE TO NUKE THEM! The longer we hold off the worse it will get, face it, we are at 6 minutes to midnight, lets sort it!
Skipy
Oh! by the way I wish there was another way but I don't believe that there is.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:04 PM

Odd, Skep -- the Tonkin Gulf was the first thought that crossed my mind. I also thought "How clever -- to parlay the Brits force so it doesn't look like the Gulf of Tonkin trick too closely...".

But then, I have been short of sleep lately.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 05:29 PM

Tonight's television news said they were Marines and they are being questioned about stealing cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 05:20 PM

Bubblyrat - I think you could be right!

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 05:17 PM

They really need a referee in these situations to determine who was offside.

The place where they were detained appears to be in a part of the waterway which is claimed by Iran, under a treaty dating from 1975. The claim that this happened in Iraqi waters appears to be based on the fact that Saddam Hussein cancelled the treaty at the time he invaded Iran five years later. (Associated Press, Jerusalem Post)

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 04:27 PM

There is a vote on more rrestrictions against Iran in the UN. But I doubt one thing has anything to do with the other thing. I mean, really now . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 04:27 PM

"Perhaps it is a little early to reach conclusions about what exactly happened, and why ... ?"

Not for some people it isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 04:26 PM

FWIW: Just heard in a radio commentary that those waters have long been disputed. Perhaps it is a little early to reach conclusions about what exactly happened, and why ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 04:16 PM

Of course Tehran claims the Brits were in Iranian waters.

Who do you think would want to create an international incident?

Maybe the Iranians should torture them until they confess that the Americans put them up to it. ;>)

btw - the sailors are reported to be in good health.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:52 PM

I think that if the sailors/marines that were taken are harmed, the Iranian government will find out really quickly how effective the SAS can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:36 PM

"Remember the phony Iranian hostage "crisis.""

Tell THAT to 'KEN TAYLOR

Former Canadian Ambassador to Iran

Ken Taylor is best known as the former Canadian Ambassador to Iran who, in 1980, risked his own life and his country's reputation, to help save the lives of six American hostages during the Iran Crisis. His heroism made him an overnight international celebrity. He received the United States Congressional Gold Medal and the Order of Canada. He was also portrayed by legendary actor Gordon Pinsent in the movie "Escape from Iran: The Canadian Caper".'

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:29 PM

"Remember the phony Iranian hostage "crisis.""



??????????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST, Skeptic
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:24 PM

CIA / MI-6 operation. Provocation for war. Remember the phony Iranian hostage "crisis." Remember the Maine, Gulf of Tonkin, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:07 PM

The Brits are supporting a UN Resolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: bubblyrat
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:02 PM

I was in the Royal Navy for several years,back in the ' sixties. In those days, the lads would have fought like tigers to avoid capture, especially in international waters, but in today"s politically-correct climate, they are not allowed to say " Boo", let alone fight.I imagine that they surrendered in seconds, without a struggle, on Blair"s orders. Poor sods.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 12:59 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Who's Next? Iran or Korea?
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:09 AM

15 British sailors detained by Iran
Updated 11m ago |   



LONDON (AP) — Iranian naval vessels arrested and seized 15 British sailors and marines on Friday in Iraqi waters moments after they searched a merchant ship, the Ministry of Defense said.
Britain summoned Iran's ambassador in London to demand their immediate release.

The British personnel from the frigate HMS Cornwall were "engaged in routine boarding operations of merchant shipping in Iraqi territorial waters," and had completed their inspection of a merchant ship when they were accosted by Iranian vessels, the ministry said in a statement.

"We are urgently pursuing this matter with the Iranian authorities at the highest level and ... the Iranian ambassador has been summoned to the Foreign Office," the ministry said.


ON DEADLINE: Read more about the British soldiers

"The British government is demanding the immediate and safe return of our people and equipment."

"I've got 15 sailors and marines who have been arrested by the Iranians and my immediate concern is their safety," the Cornwall's commander, Commodore Nick Lambert, told British Broadcasting Corp television.

Lambert said it was a routine boarding. The skipper of the vessel had "answered all the questions, and the leader of the boarding party cleared him to continue with his business."

Lambert said the Cornwall lost communication with the boarding party, but a helicopter crew saw the Iranian vessels approach.

A fisherman who said he was with a group of Iraqis from Basra in the northern area of the Gulf said he witnessed the event. The fisherman declined to be identified because of security concerns.

"Two boats, each with a crew of six to eight multinational forces, were searching Iraqi and Iranian boats Friday morning in Ras al-Beesha area in the northern entrance of the Arab Gulf, but big Iranian boats came and took the two boats with their crews to the Iranian waters," said the fisherman.

BBC reporter Ian Pannell on HMS Cornwall said the sailors had just boarded a dhow when they were accosted.

"While they were on board, a number of Iranian boats approached the waters in which they were operating — the Royal Navy are insistent that they were operating in Iraqi waters and not Iranian waters — and essentially captured the Royal Navy and Royal Marine personnel at gunpoint," Pannell said.

In June 2004, six British marines and two sailors were seized by Iran in the Shatt al-Arab between Iran and Iraq. Iran said that before that group was released, British diplomats acknowledged the British boats entered the Iranian waters by mistake.

Britain's Defense Ministry subsequently said, however, that the captives believed they had not entered Iranian waters.

The U.S. 5th Fleet said the Royal Navy sailors were assigned to a naval task force whose mission is to protect Iraqi oil terminals and maintain security in Iraqi waters under the U.N. mandate of the Security Council resolutions on Iraq.

The fleet said in a statement issued by its headquarters in Bahrain: "The boarding party had completed a successful inspection of a merchant ship when they and their two boats were surrounded and escorted by Iranian vessels into Iranian territorial waters," the statement said.

The Iranians seized the Britons at 10:30 a.m. Iraqi time, the statement added.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 12:55 PM

'The Iranians were in Iraqi territory illegally. So were the British'

There is a difference. British and US forces are in acknowledged occupation of Iraqi territory and territorial waters. Iran is still claiming they aren't interfering in Iraq. You can call Britain's presence "illegal" but at least they aren't a pack of liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,Ayatollah Blair
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 11:55 AM

The Iranians were in Iraqi territory illegally. So were the British. Iran and Iraq fought over the Shatt al Arab for 8 years, that's why the Americans armed Saddam, remember...

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,Beanie
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 11:37 AM

It is believed the group holding them collect Old Masters and young sailors.