BS: Obama is a socialist

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:01 PM

"It you sit on a board with someone for years..."

An **irrelevant** association to the issue at hand. ...except for those who want careless listeners to FORM a different idea of its relevance. If the story were that Obama had refused to serve on a nice, friendly community board because some guy he didn't like was on it, they'd be playing THAT up as a fault.

Face it...if Obama mentioned which toothpaste he used, someone would be looking for problems with the manufacturer!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:47 PM

I didn't say he hung out with Ayers. I said he associated with him and he should have had better judgment. He should have had higher standards. More smarts. Evidently political ambition is more important to him than personal standards.

If someone hosts a party for you to introduce politically, that is an association.

It you sit on a board with someone for years, that is an association.

Bill Ayers quote: "guilty as hell, free as a bird"

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:28 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:54 PM

"how could he ever have associated himself with Bill Ayers? Or Rev Wright or Rezko?"

Because finding out Ayers background was not an ISSUE when they were both on that board together. He didn't 'hang out' with Ayers....he did not even 'associate' with Ayers in the sense the slimers are trying to portray it.

Rev. Wright married the Obamas, and was just a nice preacher to them for many years. He didn't 'choose' Wright based on his extreme statements, and he disavowed those when he realized what had been said...(he was **NOT** in church the day that famous statement was made.)
Rezko: He met Rezko before there was a problem...then...

"U.S. Sen. Barack Obama expressed regret late Friday for his 2005 land purchase from now-indicted political fundraiser Antoin "Tony" Rezko in a deal that enlarged the senator's yard.

"I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it," Obama told the Chicago Sun-Times in an exclusive and revealing question-and-answer exchange about the transaction.

In June 2005, Obama and Rezko purchased adjoining parcels in Kenwood. The state's junior senator paid $1.65 million for a Georgian revival mansion, while Rezko paid $625,000 for the adjacent, undeveloped lot. Both closed on their properties on the same day.

.....

""With respect to the purchase of my home, I am confident that everything was handled ethically and above board. But I regret that while I tried to pay close attention to the specific requirements of ethical conduct, I misgauged the appearance presented by my purchase of the additional land from Mr. Rezko," Obama said.

"It was simply not good enough that I paid above the appraised value for the strip of land that he sold me. It was a mistake to have been engaged with him at all in this or any other personal business dealing that would allow him, or anyone else, to believe that he had done me a favor," the senator said. "

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:38 PM

The NP's [New Party] political strategy is to support progressive candidates in elections only if they have a concrete chance to "win". This has resulted in a winning ratio of 77 of 110 elections. Candidates must be approved via a NP political committee. Once approved, candidates must sign a contract with the NP. The contract mandates that they must have a visible and active relationship with the NP.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:37 PM

Chicago Democratic Socialists of America Endorsements in the March 19th Primary Election

Barack Obama

Barack Obama is running to gain the Democratic ballot line for Illinois Senate 13th District. The 13th District is Alice Palmer's old district, encompassing parts of Hyde Park and South Shore.

Mr. Obama graduated from Columbia University and promptly went into community organizing for the Developing Communities Project in Roseland and Altgeld Gardens on the far south side of Chicago. He went on to Harvard University, where he was editor of the Harvard Law Review. He graduated with a law degree. In 1992, he was Director of Illinois Project Vote, a voter registration campaign that made Carol Moseley Braun's election to the U.S. Senate much easier than it would have been. At present, he practices law in Judson Miner's law firm and is President of the board of the Annenberg Challenge Grant which is distributing some $50 million in grants to public school reform efforts.

What best characterizes Barack Obama is a quote from an article in Illinois Issues, a retrospective look at his experience as a community organizer while he was completing his degree at Harvard:

    "... community organizations and organizers are hampered by their own dogmas about the style and substance of organizing. Most practice ... a 'consumer advocacy' approach, with a focus on wrestling services and resources from outside powers that be. Few are thinking of harnessing the internal productive capacities, both in terms of money and people, that already exist in communities." (Illinois issues, September, 1988)

Luckily, Mr. Obama does not have any opposition in the primary. His opponents have all dropped out or were ruled off the ballot. But if you would like to contribute to his campaign, make the check payable to Friends of Barack Obama, 2154 E. 71st, Chicago, IL 60649. If you would like to become involved in his campaign, call the headquarters at [phone].

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:25 PM

The Democratic Socialists of America Present
       The First Chicago Town Meeting on Economic Insecurity

               EMPLOYMENT AND SURVIVAL IN URBAN AMERICA
         a discussion of policy, problems, and possibilities

                                 with

                        WILLIAM JULIUS WILSON,
Director, Center for the Study of Urban Inequality at the University
                              of Chicago

                           MICHAEL DAWSON,
       Professor of Political Science, University of Chicago

                            BARACK OBAMA,
          Candidate, State Senate, 13th Legislative District

                         TONI PRECKWINKLE,
                         4th Ward Alderman

                           JOSEPH SCHWARTZ,
          Professor of Political Science, Temple University

                        SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 25TH
                               7:00pm
                   Ida Noyes Hall, Cloyster Club
                     1313 E. 59th Street, Chicago

Sponsored by:
*University of Chicago Democrats
*Chicago Democratic Socialists of America
*University of Chicago Democratic Socialists of America

For more information call:

University of Chicago Democratic Socialists, 312-955-6371

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM

If Obama is so wise, how could he ever have associated himself with Bill Ayers? Or Rev Wright or Rezko? If he is not a socailist, why was he a member of New Party?

After allegations surfaced in early summer over the 'New Party's' endorsement of Obama, the Obama campaign along with the remnants of the New Party and Democratic Socialists of America claimed that Obama was never a member of either organization. The DSA and 'New Party' then systematically attempted to cover up any ties between Obama and the Socialist Organizations. However, it now appears that Barack Obama was indeed a certified and acknowledged member of the DSA's New Party.


Scrubbed page From the New Party Website October 1996:

Running to Win : The Key Races
New Party members are busy knocking on doors, hammering down lawn signs, and phoning voters to support NP candidates this fall. Here are some of our key races:

Arkansas: The Little Rock New Party has a full slate of candidates up for election in November. LRNP steering committee member Michael Booker is running unopposed for re-election to the Arkansas State House. Two NP members - Paul Kelly and Genevieve Stewart - are running for at-large (city-wide) city council positions. And in a head-to-head battle between the New Party and the conservative right, NP member Jayne Cia faces the Arkansas state chair of Empower America (Jack Kemp and Bill Bennett's organization) for a Justice of the Peace (county board) position.

Illinois: Three NP-members won Democratic primaries last Spring and face off against Republican opponents on election day: Danny Davis (U.S. House), Barack Obama (State Senate) and Patricia Martin (Cook County Judiciary).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM

here here an official welcomt to Tex.

Is ther anything wrong for Obama to be a Socialite?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:18 PM

That pesky 'Texas Guest' finally joined! I think it took him a couple of years to decide we were safe, if crazy. I think he feels at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:35 PM

Yes, there is quite a number of people with pretty extreme viewpoints that tend to pop in prior to elections. Some post as guests, some actually join. Vociferous in their political comments (often very extreme), but you never see their handles in threads above the line, and they usually disappear after election day.

Are they here because they are interested in folk music? Not so one would notice.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:23 PM

Yup...ever since Google found us several years ago, folks have been popping in here after finding the BS section thru some search, and noting it was 'relatively' free posting, and lots of topics.

That guy who invented the WWW sure has a lot to answer for... *wry grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:20 PM

The special thing about the Mudcat is that it provides a place where you can have arguments with people, but knowing that behind the disagreements there is a shared love of the music.

That can help keep disagreements on a relatively level keel. Not always. but compared to other forums, which are liable to be either vicious, or moderated into somnolence. That shared love of the music makes all the difference.

I note that Sawzaw seems never to have made made a single post to the musical side of the forum, under that name anyway. I'm not in the least surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:27 AM

Kinda depends on your definitions, there, Sawz. Did you vote for Bush? I am guessing the answer is yes. Probably twice. He sponsored the biggest expenditure of government money --tax money-- in history to prop up the failing economy. Pretty socialist, I would say.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:18 AM

McCain once said on the Chris Matthews show that the wealthiest should pay more taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:05 AM

"...I am not going to vote for a socialist."

There are no 'socialists' running. There is only a label being tossed about in a desperate attempt to smear Obama by imaginative stretches of a few of his words.

"share the wealth" can mean many things. Obama explained clearly what HE meant by it, and it was NOT socialism.

(folks are already taking the next step and insinuating Obama is on the verge of Communism....sheesh!)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:40 AM

Obama has said repeatedly that he did not agree with the Weathermen. Ayers did not shape Obama's policies. You are just being stubborn in refusing to believe the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:35 AM

Let me repeat, I am not a fan of McCain and Palin but I am not going to vote for a socialist. What I am posting here is what I believe to be the truth published in newspapers and books.

If someone can prove any of it false, I will apologize and retract it.

I would not depend on movies as a reliable source. They are made to make money. There was a movie made called the path to 9/11. Has anybody seen that?

"McCain took money from the Annenburgs, who are directly associated with Ayers"

Did the money McCain took come from Ayers?

Did Ayers somehow shape the policies of the Annenbergs so as to influence McCain to hold the same policies as Ayres?

Again Obama was directly associated with Ayers, McCain was not.

By your logic Obama and McCain are equal in whatever point you are trying to make.

Exactly when, how much and for what purpose did McCain "take" Money from the Annenbergs?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:22 AM

First of all, shooting down, and smearing someone and calling him names, with an opposing side, is no way to gather information, whether or not you agree with him. I find some, and not sure, of how much, Sawzaw comments and links rather validating to some of which he is saying..whether I agree, or not. He certainly raises a validated question, that deserves better than, he is getting.

That being said, CarolC raises a GREAT question, that may not have been asked, had Sawzaw posted his post..and that is,".....how could the Annenburgs associate with Ayers? How could any Republicans at the university where he works associate with Ayers? Why is it only condemnable for the Democratic candidate for president to have that kind of association with Ayers but not all of the Republicans" .......Just Who ARE THESE PEOPLE, AND WHAT IS THEIR OVERALL AGENDA???? Seems like they got their fingers in everybody's pie!...Why???..other than what the 'press' reports, with their chosen 'tone of voice' when reporting anything on them. Maybe they are one of the 'string pullers'...favoring an agenda of 'who knows what?'

Two movies that certainly seem thought provoking, in this area, are 'Network' and 'The Candidate'...should rent wand watch both of them.
Certainly, worth considering, at this time, in our nation's history!

Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:39 AM

Mr Ayers book was published in 2001, not 40 years ago.

I am sorry of reality is too much for Bobert to handle.

No Regrets
From our August 2001 issue: "Kill your parents!" urged sixties leftist Bill Ayers, whose father was the chairman of Commonwealth Edison here.

Form the book Hippie:

Bernadine Dorn, Mrs Ayers on the Manson Murders:

The "War Council" held by the Weather Underground in Flint, Michigan, in December 1969, at which he and Dohrn were key players. It was at the Flint War Council that Dohrn admonished the four hundred delegates to stop being "wimpy" and "scared of fighting," and to "get into armed struggle." Invoking the example of Charles Manson, who had killed Sharon Tate and all her houseguests in the Los Angeles hills, Dohrn declared, "Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, they even shoved a fork into a victim’s stomach! Wild!" She closed her speech by holding up three fingers in what she called the "Manson fork salute." Dohrn was followed by one of Ayers’s friends, John Jacobs, who told the crowd, "We're against everything that's 'good and decent' in honky America. We will loot and burn and destroy." The delegates then discussed how to get weapons, make bombs, and rent "safe houses"â€"after which they broke into a nearby Catholic Church to engage in group sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:56 PM

And I would turn that question around... how could the Annenburgs associate with Ayers? How could any Republicans at the university where he works associate with Ayers? Why is it only condemnable for the Democratic candidate for president to have that kind of association with Ayers but not all of the Republicans who have the same and some even closer association? This is a double standard, based on a cynical intent to manipulate voters into voting against their own best interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:49 PM

What were YOU like 40 years ago? I expect that Sawzaw was rather less than a twinkle in his future grandparents' eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:47 PM

McCain took money from the Annenburgs, who are directly associated with Ayers (more closely than Obama, even). So it's ok to take money from people who are directly associated with Ayers?

Subject: Guilt by association
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:09 PM

Sawzaw, the problem with the "Ayers card" is that there's no evidence at all that Obama participated in or supported or agreed with any illegal activities Ayers may have been involved in. "Guilt by association" is a desperate tactic of a losing campaign. I really thought the McCain campaign would conduct itself honorably and confront the issues, but they started acting like losers before the Republican Convention even began. Now it seems that every move they make is an act of desperation.

I think McCain is a good person and has something to say to America - and I think the same of Sarah Palin. But they're ignoring the issues and insisting on making nonissues into the central focus of their campaign, and that's a shame.

There's no evidence at all that Obama has ever supported any sort of terrorism, but McCain and Palin keep insisting that Obama "hangs out with terrorists." They're trying the same thing with their Acorn attacks, although there's no evidence of any substantial problem with Acorn other than a lawsuit about something that took place over 8 years ago - and there's certainly no evidence that Obama was involved in any wrongdoing with either Ayers or Acorn.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:01 PM

Perhaps because he, like most people, realizes that life is an ongoing series. What Ayers did and said 40 years ago - when Barack Obama was 7 or 8 years old - was in a very different time. A volatile, angry time when many people felt that drastic responses and solutions were needed.

What were YOU like 40 years ago? (I grant that SOME people become nastier as they age, instead of t'other way 'round.) *g*

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:46 PM

"So if Ayers was such a bad guy, why are the people condemning Obama for having some associations with him in the past not also condemning all of the Republicans who have also had associations with Ayers? And more specifically, why are they not also condemning McCain for accepting money from people who had associations with Ayers?"

Because McCain is not directly associated with Ayers. Obama is.

First you say "people condemning Obama for having some associations with him" and then you say "They don't give a shit about anyone's associations with Ayers"

So are they condemning him or they don't give a shit?

With the exception of the Kill your parents quote, they came from his books. I don't think any right winger wrote his books.

How could Obama associate himself with this maniac?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:34 PM

Sawsaz-

I'm not particularly impressed with the notes you've harvested from right-wing websites but it is depressing that some voters might take these allegations seriously. Why do you take such a keen interest in such creative research?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:18 PM

Seems to me that I've seen polls that say that 65% of the voting population could care less about Professor Ayers.   Count me in.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:04 PM

So if Ayers was such a bad guy, why are the people condemning Obama for having some associations with him in the past not also condemning all of the Republicans who have also had associations with Ayers? And more specifically, why are they not also condemning McCain for accepting money from people who had associations with Ayers?

I'd say the reason is simple. They don't give a shit about anyone's associations with Ayers. They just want to undermine our democracy by misleading voters into voting against their own economic interests. I'd say that's way more un-American than anything Bill Ayers ever did.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Justin U
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 08:07 PM

Well Bobert don't forget to tell Obama about our "original" Debates thread. (After he sees his granny).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 08:05 PM

Sawz,

You have become a raving idiot... The kind a guy that goes screaming theu the streets, yelling at imaginary demons, making a complete ass out of one's self...

I hope its working for you but...

...purdy embaressing for most of us to watch...

Take a few deep breaths... Go see a movie... Crack open a bottle of good aged wine but, for gosh sakes, get a hold of yourself... You are embarassing even the most Bushites of the Bushites here...

God, man, give it a friggin' rest, will ya'???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:57 PM

Bill Ayers:

"Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents"

"Memory is a motherfucker"

Ayers was a leader of the Days of Rage, a vandalism spree in Chicago in which bystanders were assaulted. To acquire false IDs needed to survive underground, Ayers confesses, "we stole wallets and purses without much concern for our victims."

"It was a risky business that could reel out of control without warning. We were trying to learn artfulness and stealth, and stealing purses was definitely from the old school. More important, these papers were unreliable, and had a short shelf life. As soon as they were reported missing, everything stopped working, and it could prove disastrous to buy a car, for example, or rent an apartment"

"We hoped to use our celebrity in the lunatic left as well as the gathering Weathermyth in the larger world to persuade others to pull back. We knew where to find a few organized groups--the Red Family and the Proud Eagle Tribe, for example, the Motherfuckers and the White Panthers--and we held several secret summits where we had the traditional frank exchange of views and hammered out some kind of new formal understanding. Only once, in a dingy basement hideout near Houston, were guns drawn, but it was based on a misunderstanding--the crazies thought Jeff Jones had said, "We can turn you shits in in D.C." when he had actually said, "We can turn you into fish in the sea"--and we laughed about it later as we passed a joint."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM

The FUD-button use of socialism is another paper tiger being waved around by the fear and hate crowd.

What the problem is   is that our social network is falling apart largely due to the untrammeled avarice of unethical business practices used to forward simple greed.

Repairing our network is not socialism. When FDR did it it was MORE socialistic than some earlier periods (such as the Golden Age of robber barons and Tammany Hall). Hell, for that matter, the Constitution was mORE socialism than the monarchic dictatorships that preceded it.

The problem is that Manichean lizardbrains think things are either A or B, without noticing that they can be a little more A or a little more B. For example, Mister Bush is distinctly MORE fascistic than, say, Jimmy Carter or Wm Clinton were in his management style. Not to say he was an absolute fascist--just that he slid things in that direction.

There is a continuous gradient of degrees from stark extreme capitalism to stark extreme socialism, and the US has typical bounced around the middle of that spectrum.

Maybe someone should point out that the Interstate Freeway system so beloved by truckers and trippers everywhere was a socialist exercise? So was the TVA and the Manhattan Project.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:03 PM

I just listened to a very nice speech from Sarah Palin, condemning Obamas's economic ideas as "socialism," which certainly not something we want to try in today's hard times.

In response, my rather bright stepson said, "Socialism is what got us out of the last Depression."

Anybody remember how highly Ronald Reagan praised FDR?

Maybe it IS time for some wealth redistribution. Maybe it's time for McCain and Palin to stop pushing the sad, sad stories of the potential Obama-caused suffering of those poor people who earn over $250,000 a year. I earned $250,000 in one year, 1999 - and I paid a lot of taxes. I can't say I suffered then, but now I'm getting worried. Sarah doesn't have much sympathy for me now that I'm in a much lower tax bracket.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 01:28 PM

Or "socialest". But they spelled Obama right.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:28 PM

How do you spell Mavrik?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:56 AM

I have yet to figure out why anyone would bother explaining any of the above to you Sawsass. You're trapped in your little bigoted world where fear rules and now that the situation is swinging in a new direction you have made up your mind to believe only what you want even when the evidence doesn't support you.

So why bother explaining?

If only Obama was as socialistic as Bernie! But be assured Obama WILL be President. Tough shit Doodles!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:24 AM

Senator Obama served as a paid director to a Chicago-area non-profit organization, the Woods Fund, from 1999 until almost 2003. Bill Ayers served with Senator Obama on the organization's board of directors.

In 2001 the Woods Fund gave a $40,000 financial aid grant to the Arab American Action Network which was co-founded by Rashid Khalidi. AAAN's president is Mr. Khalidi's wife, Mona. In 2002, the Woods Fund gave the Arab American Action Network a second gift of $35,000. Mr. Khalidi and his wife are successful fundraisers for Senator Obama.

The Arab American Action Network opposes the existence of Israel as a state, calling its founding a "catastrophe." Mr. Khalidi, the Arab American Action Network's co-founder, was also a director of the official PLO press agency WAFA in Beirut from 1976 to 1982. Khalidi's wife, AAAN President Mona Khalidi, was WAFA's English translator during that period.

While Obama and Ayers were on the board of the Woods Fund, it also made a $1,000,000 contribution to Chicago Annenberg Challenge Senator Obama chaired the CAC from 1995 through 1999.

As a state senator Obama directed $225,000 of Illinois taxpayers' money, and later as a U.S. Senator earmarked another $100,000 in federal tax money, for programs run by radical political activist and Catholic priest (now removed from his church), Father Michael Pfleger.
Pfleger is an associate of Senator Obama, Reverend Wright and of Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan whom Wright described "as one of the...giants of the African-American religious experience"

Over the past 15 years Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, Illinois, and Reverend Jeremiah Wright has received $15,000,000 in grant money from the federal government.

Wright and Farrakhan once traveled together to visit Libyan dictator, Muammar al-Qaddafi -- who was responsible for bombing an airliner over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing everyone aboard.

In December, 2007 Wright's Trinity United Church of Christ awarded Farrakhan for his lifetime "achievements. Farrakhan describes Obama as the "Messiah" Gadaffi calls Obama a Muslim brother. In 1996 Gaddafi pledged $1 billion to the Nation of Islam after meeting with Mr. Farrakhan.

NYT January 27, 1996:
Louis Farrakhan, head of the Nation of Islam, visited Libya this week to meet Col. Muammar el - Qaddafi and discussed how to "unify, mobilize and organize" American Muslims for elections in the United States this year. Colonel Qaddafi, the Libyan leader, quoted by the state press agency, said: "Our confrontation with America used to be like confronting a fortress from outside. Today we have found an opening to enter the fortress and to confront it from within.

And finally, amongst other real estate holdings, The Tinley Park Southtown Star reports that Barack Obama's former pastor will have a four-bedroom home in Tinley Park, Illinois, a southern Chicago suburb. Wright's home, which is being paid for by his church, the Trinity United Church of Christ, will include an elevator, butler's pantry, exercise room, a master bedroom with a whirlpool and a spare room for a future theater or swimming pool. The mansion is estimated to cost $1 million.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:54 AM

The North American Union and the Amero, at least according to Snopes and AskQuestions.org, both seem to be things for various pundits to push on a slow day. In fact, a leading scare writer on these topics is Jerome Corsi, who is currently noted for a couple of somewhat poorly researched books on Obama. While it is nearly impossible to prove a negative, and there is the usual amount of BS in the blog-o-sphere, Obama's own Fact Sheet on Latin America gives no indication that he has any interest in a NAU, in any form.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:47 AM

The US just uses the UN for cover. Or at least it tries to. In the case of invading Iraq, there was no UN mandate for doing so. But after it invaded, it got the mandate because the US had already broken it and needed to fix it. When the UN mandate for the US to be in Iraq expires, the US will no longer have any cover for its presence there. This will make it a lot more difficult for the US government to pretend it's there for any reason having to do with what's good for the Iraqis. That could make it harder for the government to get enough support from voters and congress to be able to retain a military presence in Iraq. We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM

Thank you, CarolC, for a straight answer. Covered some of them....any more?? Also, has he said anything about the broadened executive powers granted the presidency under the Bush administration, in regards to eliminating them? I think it a travesty, that it has been sidestepped by the 'press'!
Sure would be interested in hearing his stance on the North American Union, the Amero, and ..well, I think your link somewhat addressed the borders. As it is now, they are being dissolved.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Justin U
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:43 AM

And when did America ever listen to the UN CarolC ?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:36 AM

It's the Bush administration and their cronies who are milking the war in Iraq.

But the war may be brought to an end without any US politicians doing anything at all. The US is about to lose its UN mandate for being there, and the Iraqi government doesn't appear to be prepared to sign any new agreements to allow US forces to remain in that country.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:14 AM

On the subject of the economic stimulus package they're considering now, Obama has been saying it should go toward investing in our infrastructure and not be a handout as such. And they seem to be gravitating toward that option. Several good things would come out of that... 1. new jobs would be created. 2. people would have more money to spend. 3. communities would have an influx of money from the projects and from the increase in disposable income that the people with the new jobs would have. 4. our infrastructure would be strengthened (something that is badly needed).

Here's Obama's page with his positions on immigration.

So far, I haven't heard him say anything about the North American Union. But what I have heard him say on the subject of things like that (NAFTA, for instance) is that we need to make sure that any free trade agreements we have are based on human rights considerations and environmental conditions. He is not in favor of any free trade agreements that don't require fairness and consideration for the environment. For instance, he voted against a free trade agreement with Columbia because of the problem in that country of union members and organizers being targeted for assasination, and because of the way workers are being treated in that country.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:16 AM

Honest question: Does Obama's 'spread the wealth' policy, does it extend to illegal aliens? and/or Has he stated a policy in regards to that? (including the borders, and the status of those illegal alens' that are here now?)   Next: If this administration goes with another 'economic stimulus package' and hands out money, 250 -300 billion dollars worth, as reported, isn't this a form of the 'spread the wealth' policy,? and/or How is Obama;s claim to no 'more of the same' fit in, as being opposed to doing basically the same type thing? Another question: How does Obama stand on the North American Union, and going from the dollar to the Amero?...or is he planning to continue to pursue the same policy?

Nobody has brought this up, as far as I know. Any word on these things?
or, is it really 'more of the same' under a different name??

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:43 PM

The Chicago Annenberg Challenge Board recieved $98.4 million doled out by chairman Obama with grants.

The Challenge Board contracted 45 "external" partners to work directly with the schools. These external partners included various universities, parks, and community organizations. In most cases, grant money did not go directly to the schools.

The first external partner to receive funds, approximately 175,000 dollars, was the “Small Schools Workshop;â€쳌 an organization founded by William Ayers and directed by Mike Klonsky. Klonsky was the leader of the “New Communist Movement,â€쳌 a Marxist-Leninist organization of the 70s and 80s with ties to the Black Panther Party. Klonsky was also a leader of the “SDSâ€쳌. Essentially, the first payout issued from the Challenge Board, authorized by Barack Obama, was awarded to a radical group who made no secret they were Communists with a lower-case “câ€쳌. This group, led by former leaders of the Weathermen Underground Organization, became responsible for reforming the education of Chicago’s school children.

Among other external partners to receive funding was an organization called ACORN, which had received 190,000 dollars. ACORN, founded by a former member of the “SDSâ€쳌, Wade Rathke, is a leftist community organization with close ties to the Democratic Socialists of America. In the 1990s, ACORN heavily involved itself in the housing market by using the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 as a tool to extort banks and pressure them into making risky loans. In the 90s, ACORN’s militant tactics caught national attention on several occasions when they broke into private offices, harassed bankers at their homes, and used the CRA to delay bank mergers.

Final Evaluation:

The results of an August 2003 final technical report of the Chicago Annenberg Research Project by the Consortium on Chicago School Research "suggest that among the schools it supported, the Challenge had little impact on school improvement and student outcomes, with no statistically significant differences between Annenberg and non-Annenberg schools in rates of achievement gain, classroom behavior, student self-efficacy, and social competence.

Mr Ayers, Caracas Venezuela 2006 commenting on education:

"[comrade] Luis as a major asset in both the Venezuelan and the international struggle. I look forward to seeing how he and all of you continue to overcome the failings of capitalist education as you seek to create something truly new and deeply humane. Thank you, [comrade] Luis, for everything you’ve done."

Who was it that failed? Capitalist education or Bill Ayers attempt at education?

Thank you, Comrade Ayers, for everything you have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM

Dang, Magrath, why are you so wise?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:35 PM

Mind, when it comes to "associating with terrorists" he'd have had a point if he had said that. Some terrorists work on a bigger scale than others. "Shock and Awe" is a terrorist doctrine.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:34 PM

but lot of mushrooms!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:30 PM

And smelly.