Our ghastly folk tradition

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:32 AM

I've just had a wonderful idea - Why don't you just invite Matthew Parris to the Lewes folk club to show him just how wonderful folk music realy is:-)

D.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Dave Earl
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:09 AM

Capt Ginger sir,
The Lewes Arms have been running these workshops for som years now. The problem you identify presumably results in an unsuccessful workshop that will not be repeated.

Do you think that The Lewes Arms may be getting it right as the series has been quite lon-running and some of the Guests coming back again.

What you describe would seem to reflect more on the Guest artist(s) than the organisers .

Dave
(Lewes Arms Resident)

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:02 AM

mattkeen

If it were any other artist of Martin's status (legendary in my book) in most any other genre we would not proclaim 49 tickets sold as proof of brilliant success.

Martin seems happy with it.

Captain Ginger

The problem with the 'masterclass' sort of workshop is that it often becomes little more than an intimate 'chance to meet' event,

Quite right. We don't do that.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 07:43 AM

The problem with the 'masterclass' sort of workshop is that it often becomes little more than an intimate 'chance to meet' event, with the guest doing a few turns, explaining a bit about the tuning and phrasing, nattering on in a pleasant and discursive fashion and maybe leading some choruses. I've been to plenty and they can be very enjoyable, but...
A proper workshop is hard graft. It has to be fully participatory and focusses on the performance of those attending, not the guest - and the guests needs to be more than simply a good performer. Sidmouth has had some excellent examples over the years, with good voice coaches really helping to bring singers on.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: mattkeen
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 07:35 AM

Sorry last post was me without a cookie

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 07:31 AM

Isn't it great that the Snail can offer as a piece of positive evidence that all is well with the folk scene and its marketing, that there is only one ticket left to see Martin Carthy?

If it were any other artist of Martin's status (legendary in my book) in most any other genre we would not proclaim 49 tickets sold as proof of brilliant success.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Slag
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:26 AM

My, my, my. I have been hesitant to enter into this, this??? This! I love folk music as well as other types of music. Rather eclectic, I am. Your trouble here is that while you, indeed, are a community, you are living your lives in a PUBLIC FORUM. Some have voiced concern about what newcomers and "Generation Next" will think of "folkies" and folk music in general. I'd be very concerned too after reading such vindictive and nastiness which peppers the foregoing. I hold my own below the line and post fairly often when I feel I have a point to be made and know what I am talking about. Above the line I pretty much hold my peace because, while I love the art, I know so little. I'm still learning----a lot! But I can usually keep my cool in a discussion.

Dylan warned that "the times, they are a changin'". What? Did you think that applied to everyone BUT folk singers? Hear the words of the prophet. It applies to you too! The thread title got it right but not for the reason you think. This "Eight Ball" who dissed Folk Music on the BBC is a nothing that can be easily dealt with by nothing more than proving him wrong by excellence in your product. If your product doesn't SELL, work it into something that DOES sell. But the ghastliness you have created here is appalling.

If you are just about preserving a tradition, well that's OK. That's why we have museums and anachronistic societies which re-enact old battle scenes and the like. The word is "conservation", you know, as in "conservative" YIKES! Since when did you all become conservatives????

One of my suggestions is, if you really have something nasty to say to someone, PM them. Keep the garbage out of the public view. That does mean, don't debate: just keep it civil.

As far as folk tradition, do the songs that tell today's stories, that take on current issues and conditions. I know that many of you do just that and I applaud you for that. Communicate this day and tomorrow.

If you want to tell me to bug off or stay out of it, don't waste your time. This will be my only foray into this thread. This is just for what it's worth.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:19 AM

GUEST,Jon

Or perhaps, Snail, Some clubs do well and others fail with either completely open or strict auditioning approaches.

Perhaps they do but tell Captain Ginger and Diane Easby. They are the ones who insist that everything that is wrong with the folk scene is the very policy that seems to bring us success.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:12 AM

Or perhaps, Snail, Some clubs do well and others fail with either completely open or strict auditioning approaches.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:55 AM

Captain Ginger, the point I am trying make is that the policies and philosophy that we follow, which are radically different from the ones you recommend, appear to succeed.

But I'm sure even you might concede that not everyone can run a club as well as you do!

Oh, I'm sure they could. It just takes a positive attitude. If you insist on telling all your floorspots that they are crap and your audiences that they are "indifferent, ignorant and sometimes even hostile" then you might not do very well.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:39 AM

Mr Snail, I don't think anyone here would say that your club is anything other than a beacon of excellence, a pearl beyond price and the paragon to which all other clubs should aspire.
But I'm sure even you might concede that not everyone can run a club as well as you do!

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:12 AM

Captain Ginger

Clubs, too, would benefit from making the occasional singers' night into a workshop or 'try-out'

Lewes Arms Folk Club workshops

Audience members are entitled to leave
Which is exactly what the vast mass of the Great British Public has done!

Well, we've only got room for fifty. I think there may still be one ticket available for Martin Carthy on 19th April. His workshop during the day is sold out.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:00 AM

Audience members are entitled to leave
Which is exactly what the vast mass of the Great British Public has done!

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 04:58 AM

...and in terms of defending positions, I would hasten to add that my views are entirely personal and that I have no 'standing' in the world of traditional music and dance. I have sometimes been paid to perform, and have run club nights, called for ceilidhs, participated in sessions and singarounds, stewarded at festivals and run the odd workshop*. But I would certainly never claim to be a guru - just someone who cares deeply about the music and who sometimes cringes at the way it's presented to an indifferent, ignorant and sometimes even hostile public.

*and workshops are festivals are too thin on the ground. That is where constructive criticism can and does help, and where indifferent performers can really improve. Sadly, however, there are some performers so convinced of their own excellence that they'd never dream of attending one!
Clubs, too, would benefit from making the occasional singers' night into a workshop or 'try-out', with the proviso that anyone who performs will have to endure a post-mortem which will be rather more than "Very nice, next please".
The many threads on this forum about breathing technique, improving projection, memorising and making a better performance are also priceless. Perhaps Alice's excellent "thread about threads on the singing voice" should be made a permathread so that the wisdom can be passed on.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 04:57 AM

Audience members are entitled to leave. They are entitled to ask for their money back. They are not entitled to behave in a rude and disruptive manner that spoils the enjoyment of other audience members.

If even Diane is willing to concede that we area a "well-run and an excellent shop window for trad music." we must be getting something right.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 04:41 AM

Captain Ginger, I was referring to your post of 06 Apr 08 - 06:12 AM. Are you now unwilling to defend that position?
Certainly not. If you are expecting an audience to pay, then it's a two-way contract - the audience should get value for money or have the right to tell the performer that s/he's crap. Why, even Covent Garden has rung to the sound of boos and whistles before now.
But that's a line of last resort; it should be down to the compere/organiser to ensure that what gets presented is good enough for folk, and if that means having auditions and try-outs in front of a small group of battle-hardened veterans with a bucket of constructive criticism, so be it. Dave Polshaw's former club would appear to have adopted such a course.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 04:40 AM

I'd assumed you were quite good

Yes, I'm sadly only "quite good". And know it.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 04:31 AM

Diane Easby

So these crap floor spots actually believe that their out-of-tune, stumbling and fumbling caterwauling (NB Kater is a German tom cat. other, incorrect, spellings miss the point) is OK? The Snail clearly does. No wonder he, unwisely, offered me a floorspot . . .

Sorry Diane, I had realised that that was the sort of act you put on. I'd assumed you were quite good.

Yes, Harvey's beer is very good. When I've been at the Royal Oak...

Harvey's hasn't been sold in the Royal Oak for several years owing to the machinations of Greene King, a property development company with a side interest in brewing. The Lewes Arms fought and won. We are celebrating Restoration Day on 26th April.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 04:22 AM

The sort of scene that Captain Ginger described earlier is not one that I would want to be part of.

Nor me but I perhaps differ from some of the open ones in that I do favour a minimal standard appropriate to the event.

In practice, at the level and type of event I enjoy most, folk club wise, I can only remember trying to persuade one person not to sing. That person was tone deaf and unaware of it - I don't know if anyone has ever cringed at something like X Factor (I've only seen snippets) when you see/hear someone so far off it seems an embarrassment to the person - but that's how I felt for this person.

Session wise, I do have problems with the worst of loud out of time bashings and lets say a tune accompanied in a key the tune isn't in so I do like to see the absolute basics learned.

Otherwise, it's just try your best (and want to try your best - somehow "it's only folk" doesn't fit in with that) with me and that's all I can do too.

Of course, another event may want to set higher standards and may have good reasons for doing so.

All in all, I favour each event to its own and whereas I don't believe and set of entry levels (including none) does any harm to the folk scene (in fact I think the variety increases or choices to find what suits us), I do think those who would have everything run their own way are damaging.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 04:08 AM

The Cap'n was responding to my assertion that "everybody KNOWS when they're still crap" by saying that he didn't think that was true and that this was one of the roots of the UK problem. So these crap floor spots actually believe that their out-of-tune, stumbling and fumbling caterwauling (NB Kater is a German tom cat. other, incorrect, spellings miss the point) is OK? The Snail clearly does. No wonder he, unwisely, offered me a floorspot . . .

Fact is, they need to be discouraged, firmly, from emerging from their bedrooms until they're fit to be heard. As in blues and comedy, like the Cap'n says. Then detractors (such as Parris, Fi Glover and (most of) the rest of R4) would have no, often justified, ammunition. Would they?

Footnote: Yes, Harvey's beer is very good. When I've been at the Royal Oak (a pub near the Lewes Arms into which I have never ventured), it's usually run out halfway through the evening as a result of residents rushing to the bar (and the cognoscenti taking the hint and following) when they see one of the culprits about to take the floor.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 03:50 AM

"Leveller - have you ever read a school anti-bullying policy?"

Yes, Tom, frequently. mrsleveller (Jools) is an MEd, lectures in education, trains classroom assistants and specialised in SEN, so it's something we discuss frequently (oh, and I have 4 children and 2 grandchildren). There is currently a debate going on regarding the over-protection of children, thereby depriving them not only of having fun but also of developing the social skills they will require in later life ....there could be a whole new discussion on the BS threads, but back to the issue in hand (dismounts from one high horse and clambers aboard another).

The remarks I made were not aimed at you, personally; I repect your position, your musical skills, your love of the music and your openness. I just think there needs to be a forum where we can all 'let our hair down'. Generally, a balance is achieved and those who indulge in bullying or have extreme views are usually counteracted by those of more moderate tendencies. I've just read Joe's post above and, to me, that seems like a sensible way to proceed.

In the end, all that matters is the music and that we enjoy listening to and performing it in our own ways. The fact that we are having this discussion at all, and with such fervour, indicates that the genre is alive and well.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 03:37 AM

Captain Ginger, I was referring to your post of 06 Apr 08 - 06:12 AM. Are you now unwilling to defend that position?

By the way, the Harvey's beer at the Lewes Arms is excellent.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 03:29 AM

It looks simple from here. A few people have cornered the guru racket, determined the frames of reference, the terms of debate, the language, built the walls and put a guard on each corner. Trenches have been dug and communication reduced to the odd explosive salvo.
It's simple but it's still really weird.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 02:15 AM

A number of posts here, and a number of personal messages, have given me something to think about. I really do sympathize with those who are distressed when threads take a nasty tone. It causes me a lot of distress, too. It's not what I expect out of folk music people. That being said, I have to say that most of the damage is done by three or four provocateurs (trolls?), and perhaps more by the twenty or so people who react strongly to their provocation (they "take the bait"). Some react with hysteria, and some react indignantly or with aggression or profanity- and these reactions exacerbate the problem and can be far worse than the original provocation.

I also ought to emphasize that the vast majority of UK Mudcatters react very well to this provocation - they do their best to ignore it and carry on the conversation.

For a number of reasons, it's not likely that we will increase our level of moderation. For the most part, we've found that our moderate level of moderation has encouraged free and lively discussion - and we fully realize that there are also a number of drawbacks to that freedom. We've chosen the path we've taken for both technical and philosophical reasons; but it's a question we've discussed endlessly over the entire history of Mudcat, and I wouldn't say our policy will never change.

So, for the forseeable future, we will continue moderation at the current level - let's take that as a "given." That gives us a framework, a reality, to deal with - now how do we operate within that framework? I think the best thing is to keep doing what most people are doing - carrying on the discussion and not getting all upset about the provocateurs. What I really like to see is when somebody gets in a very clever, funny, but nonagressive remark that puts one of our provocateurs in place. Humor can work wonders against an aggressor - counteraggression almost always fails, although it does at times satisfy some of our baser instincts.

In those (rare) circumstances where you have reason to complain about a post, please complain to me in a personal message, and be sure to tell me specifically where the problem message is located (thread name, date and time, name of poster, and why you think it's a problem). Non-members can contact me by e-mail [[e-mail]]. In general, we ignore complaints that are posted in the Forum, and we often delete them.

Thanks.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 02:03 AM

Have the good grace to do justice to the material and the tradition, rather than insult it with an unrehearsed and dire rendition in public. Rehearse, practise, refine and polish - and then perform. That's all it means.
Is that really too much to ask, Mr Snail?

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 09:26 PM

Dave - ah got it now - yes indeedy, it wuz me wot wuz fick! doh! :)

Sapper - I found that mildly offensive too. I'm pretty sure that's not how Kitty meant it.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:31 PM

Tom Bliss

And if a few got the wrong impression because they didn't read the posts, then that's not your fault either.

Of course, a mistake that a lot of us make is that, because we know exactly what we mean, the meaning of our words is totally clear to others. Well, it's obvious, init? We forget that the reader can't see what is inside our head; that they are coming at the issue from a different angle; that they don't quite read it the way we intended. Clearly they are stupid or, even worse, wilfully misunderstanding what we say for their own paranoid ends and so the situation escalates until before we know it we are going off list to blast them with the invective they so clearly deserve.

Things could be settled so much more pleasantly over a quiet pint in a decent pub.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:14 PM

So you resisted the temptation to to say to Matthew.......YOU could be Nancy!

well done Sapper!

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 08:14 PM

theleveller

As for the idea that there shuold be some universal standard applied before anyone can perform in public - it's totally against everything I believe folk music to be about.

That's good to hear. The sort of scene that Captain Ginger described earlier is not one that I would want to be part of.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: GUEST,Sapper i n the Crown and Mitre, Carlisle
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:32 PM

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Diane Easby
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:20 AM

I was referring to gratuitously offensive comments such as this:

From: sapper82 - PM
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:13 PM

"I wish someone would put him straight..."

ROFLMHO!!!!!


Dianne, what the bloody hell is offensive about that?
Given that my comparativly close neighbour (well, about 5 mile close) Mathew Parris is totally open about his sexuality, Kitty's comment about putting him straight struck me as being VERY ironically funny.
If you find that comment offensive then I suggest you look at yourself and your own opinions.

BTW, Though in this instance I think he's been a bit of a prat, the couple of occasions I've met him, assisting a local builder doing work on his house, I've found him an amusing and quite charming person.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:44 PM

I think she is just puzzled as to why this thread has stayed above the line while an equaly valid thread (and ASBO for Morris dancing) has been banished to the BS section I would guess, Sue, but I think you realy need to ask Diane rather anyone else.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:35 PM

OK, I give up... I'm probably just being thick, but can someone translate Diane's post to me? how does any of that relate to people dissing trad dance? *genuinely puzzled*

:(

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 04:42 PM

I began a thread this morning after R4 in The Write Stuff had taken the piss out of Morris in an educated, pastiche sort of way. The responses fell into two categories:

(1) even more inanely idiotic than anything Matthew Parris (or Fi Glover) ever uttered, and
(2) those demonstrating a complete unawareness that the programme was a spoof.

The thread has been sent to the basement.

Leaving aside the reality that the current list of topics here upstairs includes:

*a variety of only partly music-related ailments
*arrangements to meet up for what appears to be a cross between an orgy and a piss-up
*stuff about how to get your computer to function (I know there's some sort of tradition that "tech" stays upstairs but I'm unable to fathom why
*a few threads about books,

and so on,

this highlights clearly the contempt in which traditional dance is held by contributors generally of the GEFF tendency to this forum. When they are so disrespectful our cultural heritage themselves, it puzzles me why they are in any way concerned at what a gay former MP has to say about trad singing. Or am I?

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 03:55 PM

It's not your fault Kitty :-)

It's a good topic, and well worthy of debate even if people didn't all agree. And if a few got the wrong impression because they didn't read the posts, then that's not your fault either. I started the thread on the BBC for the same reasons as you, and there's been some traffic on Britfolk too with quite a few people firing off letters to the Beeb. A few other people (some quite 'senior' - not that that matters) have also sent me copies of their letters.

Big hug

Tom

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 03:21 PM

OK, it's all my fault because I started the thread, and made the mistake of including a quote without the quotation marks round it. There are interesting discussions to be had of what music is worth listening to and why (and whether it's worth making representations to the BBC about what they broadcast), but I'm sorry and dismayed that the thread has degenerated into abuse of people and their preferences.

Apologies

Kitty

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:56 PM

Re the number of posts Leveller: When I see a count rise as fast as this one has, it doesn't really indicate anything to me other than all is not happy in the thread.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:49 PM

Leveller - have you ever read a school anti-bullying policy?

You and I are lucky that we are confident articulate men who can stand up for ourselves. We have no way of knowing how a 'cyber victim' might feel - but I see plenty of evidence of people being quite badly upset on this forum at times - not often, admittedly, but sometimes - and it makes me queasy.

I know you think it's all just fun. I can't agree. I do think you can have fun without anyone getting hurt, and I don't think that discouraging aggressive behaviour would in any way diminish the scope of the discussions. It would most likely have the exact opposite effect and encourage more people to join in - for the benefit of everyone.

I'm not advocating the nanny set-up on the BBC (though that is preferrable to what we had there before, given the nature of that site). We are not comparing like with like. The BBC has some other constraints as a publicly-funded body, and the function of the forum is very different.

Joe asked a question (though perhaps it was rhetorical) and I'm doing my best to answer honestly. I take your point about churlishness (which is why I have never made my position clear before - I know how it makes me look), but I'm also thinking of the many MANY people I know who would love to join and use mudcat if only something was done about the bullying and fighting.

I also take Joe's point about prissiness, and I'm well aware that I often come over as Mary Poppins. But if I said what I really thought, my career would soon be over!

All the best

Tom

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:48 PM

Give me an authentic tryer as against a slick unfeeling performance every day. We all have to start somewhere.

G

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 12:32 PM

Personally, I think the light-handed approach to moderation on this site works extremely well. It gives rise to a breadth of discussion that is missing on other sites. This debate on the BBC Folk and Acoustic board has attracted around 40 posts the last time I looked. Well done, Joe, you have my support. With all due respect, I do think it slightly churlish for guests to come along and tell us that the rules should be changed. It's like being invited to a club and then saying you don't want to join because you don't like the way it's run. As for bullying; there is some on Mudcats , but much of it is from people who are too cowardly to become members and stay as constant guests. Certainly the likes of Richard Bridge are not bullies - on the contrary, I've seen him take some pretty brutal attacks on the chin and come back with a lively response. If we gave in to the whingers, this would be a much less enjoyable place to have discussions. And, let's face it, no-one's forcing you to take part, as Joe points out.

As for the GEFF debate, it is, and always has been, a spurious one. In over 40 years in the folk scene, I have never ever heard anyone say that, except in jest, usually when tuning a recalcitrent instrument. As for the idea that there shuold be some universal standard applied before anyone can perform in public - it's totally against everything I believe folk music to be about. Of course, the vast majority of people want to do their best, but who is to be the judge? Certainly not some self-appointed arbiter - only the people who are listening to the performer can judge and they can vote with their feet. Do poor performances do a diservice to folk music - don't appear to have, so far. Do they sometimes give new performers the confidence to try for themselves? In my experience, they do.In the end we are all here to enjoy ourselves, not be told we don't reach the mark by some po-faced nit-picker.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:31 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Parris

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:24 AM

"I wonder how he would feel if someone were to characterise his snippy remark as typical of the sort of waspish remarks made by many gay men."

My Actual comment Diane.

G

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:24 AM

Dave Polshaw

They are closed now, unfortunately, but only because members of the resident band (Auld Triangle) wanted to stand down and no-one would take their place.

Part of our inclusiveness is that we are always trying to recruit new people onto the committee.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:20 AM

I was referring to gratuitously offensive comments such as this:

From: sapper82 - PM
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:13 PM

"I wish someone would put him straight..."

ROFLMHO!!!!!


Giok himself castigated Mr Parris as an "arrogant tosser" which, while being absolutely true, adds nothing to the discussion. Nor does your blanket comment that what he said was typical of the "waspish remarks made by many gay men".

The fact remains that the average reader/listener/media consumer tends to agree. To make a start on changing their minds, the way to go is to present or perform the music you claim to love with excellence, not to retreat into a GEFFFish ghetto of outrage.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Dave Earl
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:16 AM

Diane

You will keep using unkind variants of our Mudcat names / handles / nicknames.

The Snail uses that name as a fun reference to the Magic Roundabout character who has the same name (Bryan).

Richard uses his own name but you don't seem to be able to use it.

I use the handle I do because I felt people who know me would recognize the headgear.

If you think the nicknames are daft/silly/stupid or whatever you could always use our proper names - which we have not tried to conceal

As I said here earlier, it's not what you say (the point you are making) it's the way you choose to say it.

Dave

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:16 AM

I somehow can't see his opponents in a homosexual rights debate calling him Folk Music Hater Matthew Parris. It wouldn't seem particularly relevant to the issue.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:12 AM

We don't demand references or give auditions

Funny that should be mentioned. Westhoughtom Folk Club would not put any floor singer on who had not auditioned first - or at least been seen by the residents and known to be of the highest quality.

Guess who were he first winners of the BBC radio 2 'Folk club of the year' award and were regulary quoted as one of the best clubs in the country by professional artists and critics alike?

They are closed now, unfortunately, but only because members of the resident band (Auld Triangle) wanted to stand down and no-one would take their place. Too high a standard to live up to I guess! Professionalism certainly seems to be a two edged sword:-(

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:12 AM

After all, everybody KNOWS when they're still crap
I don't think that's true - and that is one of the roots of the problem besetting folk in the UK. Web forums aside, people in the folk world are accommodating, non-judgemental types who would rather drink stale beer that actually tell someone that they're crap.
It means that the folk circuit is a very broad church indeed, encompassing some absolutely brilliant amateur performers and some utterly dreadful ones - and all of them are received with the same polite applause. I long for the day when I see the same robust abrasiveness one sees on the comedy circuit, or the blues circuit, where crap performers are told by the audience that their crap, and to come back when they're not. OK, maybe no quite as abrasive, but...

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:02 AM

Just so that everybody is clear about the issue of Matthew Parrish's sexuality, which I for one have no objection to.

Matthew Parris is openly homosexual, and a campaigner for homosexual rights and equality. When a person campaigns for his beliefs, it is not surprising that people should use the handle he provides, to describe him as a person. Once again the ploughshare of the English language is being beaten into a sword by the politically correct, in order to stab someone who mentions the openly acknowledged issue of a man's sexual preferences.
Had the word 'gay' [sic] been prefaced by a derogatory adjective I could see the point of getting het up about it, but as it was merely stated as a fact, openly acknowledged by the person concerned, I see no sin, real or imagined.

Rant over.

G.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 06:01 AM

Another suggestion of how things might be improved is some sort of control over selective quoting. To create a fictional example based on something I have said -

I felt Tom was claiming some sort of ownership by the professionals of what is, after all, our national heritage.

If that was quoted as -

Tom was claiming some sort of ownership by the professionals of what is, after all, our national heritage.

it would turn something that had been an expression of doubt and uncertainty into something resembling a gratuitous insult. It is all too easy, once you have made up your mind what the other person is saying, to read into it what you want. I'm sure I have done the same.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:49 AM

Diame Easby

and no, Slimy Slug, I'm NOT going to name those involved

No, I thought you probably wouldn't.

I've never been at the Slug's gaffe in Lewes but many who have have described it to me as well-run and an excellent shop window for trad music.

Thank you. It's difficult to judge yourself but I get the impression that we have a good reputation.

I think that a great deal of our success is our inclusiveness. We go out of our way to make sure that everyone who want to gets a floor spot if time allows. We have a Family Hold Back policy meaning that residents will give up their chance to perform to make room. We don't demand references or give auditions or bar anybody on the basis of their previous performance. Wanting to perform is the only criterion. It seems to work.

Do give us a visit, Diane. I promise you'll get a floor spot.

(What did the slug say to the snail? "Big Issue , sir?")