Our ghastly folk tradition

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 04:06 AM

I can't see any great contradiction between Jim Eldon and Eliza Carthy. Each is an excellent, self-taught musician who puts great store on presentation: Jim always dresses up for a gig because he believes his audience deserves it and Eliza does the same with an array of jolly nice boots and hair hues.

You'd get a better contrast by citing that violinist who operated midway between the two on the Yorkshire coast in Scarborough, Max Jaffa and his oh so smooth trio.

Both are consummately "professional" and I'd never say Eliza wasn't "rough": she can do rough when she wants, she plays for ritual sword dance and even called an album Rough Music. I have a more-or-less equal amount of material on my shelves from both of them.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 03:39 AM

Diane (and others) I'd be interested to know how style and context fit into your idea of "professionalism". For example, take two professional folk artistes: Eliza Carthy and Jim Eldon 'The Brid Fiddler'. Both hail from roughly the same are (the East Riding), both are steeped in the musical tradition of that area, both play the fiddle. Eliza is polished, sonorous and would probably be what the general public would expect if they were paying to hear a folk artiste. Jim, who earns a large proportion of his livelihood playing on the Bridlington pleasure boats, is, by comparison, much rougher and more 'down to earth' in his style. Mr Parris would probably refer to this as ghastly caterwauling but it could be considered much truer to the tradition than Eliza's style. Same material; differnt approach. Who is the more "professional"?

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:47 PM

Diane

Even if new players and singers came out of their bedrooms note/key/lyric/everything else perfect, all chances are they'd still give a flawed/mediocre performance - if they haven't also had the opportunity to actually do their thing in front of an audience. Performance skills are just as key to "being good enough", and those you can only acquire by doing it on the job. To me, that's partly what folk clubs are about. If I don't want to see performers-in-progress, I can choose to go to a concert or festival.

Matthew Parris didn't even mention folk clubs - he's probably never set foot in one. If all the flawed folk performers in the country fell under a bus tomorrow, it's likely he'd STILL hate folk music - I think that's all he's talking about, a personal taste. (Ill-advised to express it quite so venomously on the radio though, granted.)

Sue

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:17 PM

Hi Tootler, how are you doing?

Diane, I was quite aware who you were talking to in your previous post....I was just having a little fun.

If you are in the land of your birth again and it happens to coincide with the 3rd Saturday of the month and you feel like listening to a little quality music please pop along to KFFC.

You'll be made very welcome and you don't have to go to the singaround if that's not your taste (that's why it is in a separate room before and after the main acts) but you'll probably be surprised by the quality of the acts in the main concert part of the evening (in a good way I mean). Personally I enjoy the singarounds but fully respect that not everyone does.

I went to the Thirsk session once as well, it has now folded (due to the pub being bought by Weatherspoons) meaning there is now very little live music in Thirsk......which can't be a good thing even if it is not to your tastes.

Paul

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:18 PM

Hello Tootling person, I didn't "insult" the cowboy twangers.
I didn't actually speak to anyone.
I stayed for a couple of tunes then walked out again.
And I went there for a purpose: I was thinking about going to live in the area.
I didn't.

How dare you insult the way in which I assess the amenities (or lack thereof) of my ancestral town in which I have a right to go and live in if I want to?
Which I don't. The music is far too crap.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Tootler
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 05:08 PM

But I dropped into a Thirsk session a couple of years ago and lasted half an hour. It was dominated by out-of-tune guitarists thrashing out C&W.

That is an utterly reprehensible remark. On a par with that of Matthew Parrish. Just because the music they play was not to your taste is no excuse to insult them.

I used to go to that session and while I drifted away because I was more interested in traditional material, I found them friendly and welcoming. Remember these people that you are slagging off in this way are, for the most part, simply enjoying an evening out playing the music they enjoy with people who share their tastes. I think this is true of many people who go to folk clubs and the nay-sayers in this discussion will do well to remember this when they are complaining about the "dreadful standards".

If that's not a format you like, then don't go there, but don't insult those of us who enjoy the participatory aspect of folk music and who go to folk clubs for that purpose.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 03:55 PM

In 1968 I was trying to play like Jimi Hendrix AND like Martin Carthy.
Why not? They were both doing new and exciting things with music.
I saw (and still don't see) any reason to discriminate and separate them out.
Of course, you couldn't ask the former his opinion nowadays.
But I'm pretty damn sure Martin Carthy agrees.
You could ask him at your workshop.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 03:47 PM

Well, youngish and smug Paul, I can see your reading age hasn't escalated since you were 3. I was talking to the man in the hat about 1968, as indicated in my post of 03.16, and assuming we were both "f*lk club luminaries" when such a thing was cool and trendy.

Hey, I'd left the ancestral land where you now dwell before you were even born. More than a decade previously, I'd been learning tunes from my grandfather who'd been a North Yorkshire Morris and social dance musician before the First World War. I don't know anything about your club. But I dropped into a Thirsk session a couple of years ago and lasted half an hour. It was dominated by out-of-tune guitarists thrashing out C&W.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Dave Earl
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM

Diane,

"did in 1968 isn't what people who are the age we were then are doing today."

Actually in that year I was just abut fed up with what was current pop/rock stuff and looking for something else. Guess what i found in the upstairs room of a pub?

Dave

ps I don't play games with your name - a little courtesy would't go amiss

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 03:26 PM

"What I (and probably you) did in 1968 isn't what people who are the age we were then are doing today."

Oh I don't know, I don't think the options for 3 year olds have changed that much..........

Paul (feeling youngish and smug!)

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 03:16 PM

The Crustacean said: "stop telling them they shouldn't do what we do"

Eh? I haven't told them (by whom you seem to mean young musicians) not to do (or to do) anything. They are (frighteningly) capable of thinking for themselves.

Hat Man

Don't take this personally (though I'm quite sure you won't be breaking the habit of a lifetime, and you will). I'm really not here to tell you what to do, and I haven't. It's your club, you think it's perfect, I believe it's probably better than most. Just get on with it.

My view (and I'm far, far from alone) is that the world has quite obviously moved on. What I (and probably you) did in 1968 isn't what people who are the age we were then are doing today.

Or, to be more precise, they're not going about it the same way. I'm not telling you to move on. But you'll be a bit disappointed if you don't.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Dave Earl
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 02:51 PM

But what more would you have us do Diane?

We put forward what we do as best we can in the belief that it is part of the preservation of the Tradition.

We've put on younger generation artists as well those still around from the 60's and most ages in between.

I think Ruth Archer makes a valid point about younger artists migrating to more "Traditional" sources and material.

Incidentaly, although their case is rather special, the Young Coppers are hardly ancient and what they do is about as traditional as you can get.

So where would you have us go?

Dave

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 02:47 PM

Sounds like a plan!

:)

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM

Ruth,

.....and feel free to drop onto KFFC on the way back, I'm not that old and the club's not that bad!!!!!! They're on a Friday night and we're on a Saturday, how's that for a perfect weekend in the Northeast?

Paul

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 02:35 PM

Diane Easby

For gawd's sake stop telling them they should do what you do.

If you stop telling them they shouldn't do what we do, we might have a deal.

Must fly. Got a concertina session to run.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 02:30 PM

Banjiman, I got a brief taste of the Young 'uns at Glasson a couple of weeks ago, and thought they sounded really good. I didn't know they ran a club - good on them. If I'm near Hartlepool any time soon, I'll certainly make the effort to drop in.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 02:20 PM

Jon Boden was born in the US of A (Chicago I think) but grew up in Winchester (where the council gave him a grant to get his first violin).
So he has relatives in Sussex. Well so have I. And . . . ?

I know he's done Lewes Arms workshops. Everybody does. You never stop telling us.
He's done many other workshops all over the place. I've been at some.
I haven't been to any Lewes workshops because the train service from London and back is bloody awful (not your fault and Valmai did offer to find me a B&B),

I'm sure your club and your workshops are lovely.
But as already pointed out by others, untypical.
The era of the 60s f*lk club is way past its sell-by.
As others keep saying, they were fashionable once, 40 years ago.
Don't you remember your parents (or even grandparents) rabbitting on about how great whatever it was they used to fill their time with in the 1920s was?
And how bored you were because you were into . . . well, probably similar things but in a different setting?
Many young people nowadays are very interested in the tradarts and very knowledgable.
But they are going about it how and where they want to.
For gawd's sake stop telling them they should do what you do.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 02:04 PM

"That nice Mr Parris says so so it must be true."

On the contrary. Recorded music can be heard, chosen and bought. At a festival I can buy a ticket, stay at home or wander to the bar if I don't like something. Visit a folk club and I'm relying on someone else's discretion and singing ability.
It's guesswork but I get the feeling people who listen to local or national radio folk music programmes, buy CDs and download folk music and go to concerts aren't especially likely to go to folk clubs. I'm happy to try one again but I don't think it will be my cup of tea: basically I dont get them.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM

the quote:

'I last went in a folk club in 1975."

what glue man actually typed

No. Just as some Stones fans ended up on a trail that lead to Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson, a few Winterset kids might finish up at Bert Lloyd but folk clubs will have to meet them half way which is probably not what folk clubs are about. My collection is large and growing and I last went in a folk club in 1975'

it says to me that glueman's adventures in folk music and the tradition have taken place outside of the context of folk clubs. He didn't say he's never been i na folk club just the last time he was in one was in 1975

Charlotte (the view from here)

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:56 PM

Oh, and by the way, I don't remember folk clubs in the sixties (trendy or not), I'm too young.....just!

Paul

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:53 PM

Breton Cap

Jon Boden of Bellowhead comes from / has family in the Lewes area

and did his first ever folk club booking at the Lewes Arms. He's been back since with John Spiers as part of our workshop series.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:49 PM

GUEST,glueman

I last went in a folk club in 1975.

I've noticed the recurring theme that the people who say how awful folk clubs are are eager to boast of the fact that they never actually set foot in one because, well, they're awful aren't they. Everybody knows that. That nice Mr Parris says so so it must be true.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:47 PM

Ruth,

I'd add The Pot House in Hartlepool run by The Young 'uns as another example of the younger generation doing it for themselves.....The Young 'uns are also a great act in their own right. We've had them at KFFC as well.

Paul

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Dave Earl
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:43 PM

Diane

"Just ponder on how so many people (of all ages) have not the slightest wish to go within a million miles of a "f*lk club"

Are you saying that those clubs that are successful are still getting it wrong?

The Arms and the Royal Oak in Lewes have been going for many years (having inherited what was held in other other "clubs" before, and they continue in there different ways to provide what the Sussex Folk Scene will turn out on a wet night for.

You know about our workshops - Why do you suppose Lewes Arms put them on? Could it be to strive for improvement in the singers and musicians who attend ? Your view being that the song/tune should only be presented when it can be "performed" in expert manner would seem to require that the "performer" does all in there power to do whatever it is "properly" _ Heres our workshop to help you down that road.

We've had fiddle workshops in the past. I think the violin is your instrument, so did you consider attending so that you can progress beyond "quite good"

We get it all to work for us and I can't see what it is that you think we should be doing. You sound as if you feel that some missionary work is needed and we think that what we offer is just a little bit like that.

We know that we are succeeding but don't claim to be totally unique in that. We see other clubs in our part of the world that do things rather differently but are successful in their own ways. Others in this thread have claimed some success for their club/session or whatever.

What you advocate is an ideal and some may commend that but presentations short of your requirements can still support the continuation of the Tradition.

Dave
btw did you know that Jon Boden of Bellowhead comes from / has family in the Lewes area - suggest anything to you?

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:30 PM

"Just as some Stones fans ended up on a trail that lead to Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson, a few Winterset kids might finish up at Bert Lloyd but folk clubs will have to meet them half way"

I think for a lot of people, that journey happens as they mature. So it might be a longer road, but those Winterset (or Rusby or Lakeman or Lau or Faustus or Mawkin) kids will grow up, and eventually end up not only at Lloyd, but at Larner and Cox and Mary Ann Haynes etc. I know it's what happened to me - it took almost 20 years for me to get right back to the source. I cite my lift analogy of many days (and posts) ago.

I have to say, though, there are one or two venues i've noticed cropping up that seem to offer a contemporary take on the folk club. Sam Lee's club, The Magpie's Nest, is one. There's also the green Note in Camden, which always has lots of good folky/rootsy posters in the window, and which I'm reliably informed doesn't seat more than about 50.

The thing about folk clubs in the 60s is that they were cool, and yuoung people ran them and went to them. These days kids have higher ecxpectations from the sorts of venues they go to, and like anyone else, they're attracted to places full of people like them. If a younger generation of folk enthusiasts doesn't take on the folk (or acoustic) club mantle, actively promoting and booking events themselves in the sorts of venues they would want to visit, I honestly can't see it lasting past the current generation.

But that's not to say there won't be young people enjoying folk music and dance. They'll just be doing it on their own terms.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:05 PM

....erm, I ain't kickin' nobody, I book "the kids" from Newcastle regularly....and in my experience a nicer and more talented bunch you couldn't meet.....and if they do make it to the main stage at festivals very quickly, best of luck to them.

Doesn't happen to everyone (most people) though (even those with the right qualifications AND undoubted talent) so other outlets for their talents are needed and appreciated....again in my experience.

I don't pretend for one minute that folk clubs are the only outlet (or should be) but there is no reason why they shouldn't be part of the make up of a thriving folk/ trad scene.

Our audience is older because those are the demographics of the area where we are based, plenty of under 18s and over 35s but not much between. We had a fair few youngsters at the weekend event we ran....where we offered indoor camping, otherwise we are difficult to get to.

Paul

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:01 PM

"perhaps young people who are interested in folk (and yes, there are a fair few about) aren't all that interested in folk clubs"

True. I sense a wave of something on the tails of performers like Rachel Unthank which may well fill festivals and gigs but not folk clubs.

"Can the health of the folk club really still be held up as a yardstick for the health of the tradition?"

No. Just as some Stones fans ended up on a trail that lead to Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson, a few Winterset kids might finish up at Bert Lloyd but folk clubs will have to meet them half way which is probably not what folk clubs are about. My collection is large and growing and I last went in a folk club in 1975.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:56 PM

Sheesh!

Just found this Matthew Parris thingy here!

Been posting on this elsewhere, taken a different turn there

Ray

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:48 PM

right qualifications?

I see. Back to the last resort of kicking in the heads of the kids in Gateshead.
Just because that can (and do) go straight to the main stage.
As if it was all about that.
I'm not going to repeat what Ruth has said.
Just ponder on how so many people (of all ages) have not the slightest wish to go within a million miles of a "f*lk club".
And why.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:42 PM

Diane,

Please............be civil. I really don't have an argument with you, it's really not all crap in the folk clubs though you know.

Participation, in the right setting, does lead to improved performances. You can't go straight from your bedroom to the main stage at a festival, even with the right qualifications.

Yours cordially

Paul

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:38 PM

"However, if there really is a renaissance around the corner and new blood is beginning to flow in old veins, then let's celebrate. The day when at least half the audience and the performers at a traditional music club are under 30 is when I'll really celebrate, however."

As has been suggested many times before, perhaps young people who are interested in folk (and yes, there are a fair few about) aren't all that interested in folk clubs.

Does it matter, as long as they are still engaging with the music? In my experience, many young people enjoy ceilidhs and sessions, and especially ceilidhs and sessions at festivals, more than concerts, which may well be why the folk club holds little appeal for the younger age group.

Can the health of the folk club really still be held up as a yardstick for the health of the tradition?

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:34 PM

Jeez . . .

IAFWAFIAWMWQ (as they say in Madagascar).

Cap'n G, let's get off to a Bellowhead gig.
And leave these Backwoods/Crustaceans to their AmDram production of Over The Rainbow For Cuckoos Wearing Pink Bins Up In The Clouds.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:28 PM

Captain,

"However, if there really is a renaissance around the corner and new blood is beginning to flow in old veins, then let's celebrate. The day when at least half the audience and the performers at a traditional music club are under 30 is when I'll really celebrate, however."

This is a very fair point and we are a long way away from it in audience terms....and I wouldn't say that Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club only serves up traditional music.....but it is 95% music in the tradition.

However, if venues don't exist then the audience will never be young because there won't be anywhere for them to go. Certainly I could put on a guest or 2 under 30 every month without reducing the quality.....and we have most months (we're not too far from Newcastle and the vast pool of young folkiness there).

With my performers hat on, we play at a lot of "acoustic" as well as "folk" venues and our mixture of traditional (British and American) and self penned (but mainly "in the tradition")stuff goes down well with what is generally a slightly younger audience.

Your cup does seem rather half empty...and you have done a little "yes butting" to anything positive.....you should come and visit KFFC some weekend (we are on on a Saturday night....hurray!) maybe we can put a smile back on your face?

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:19 PM

"(though, to be fair, jazz has a far more influential following than folk even now that most of the jazz clubs are now Harvesters or whatever)."

Why would that be Cap'n?

I'm very late to this thread, but I'd ask, could it be because they don't have a core of miserable, hard-bitten, moaning old buggers who seem to delight in slagging off any and every amateur performer and club who fail to meet the standards which they, as sole arbiters of quality standards in folk music, have set for us all?

Could it be that, instead of insulting and abusing the less-talented, they actually encourage beginners and those who make comparatively slow progress, in the sure and secure knowledge that great oaks from little acorns grow?

Perhaps Joe or an elf could remove the word 'tradition' from the title of this thread, in order that it might more accurately represent a great deal of what's to be found on here.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:11 PM

Sadly my location and occupation preclude me from helping out at any local folk club (there is one near where I am, but it is truly dreadful, and wresting control from the dead hands that run it would probably cause too much of a drain on the local health service).
However, if there really is a renaissance around the corner and new blood is beginning to flow in old veins, then let's celebrate. The day when at least half the audience and the performers at a traditional music club are under 30 is when I'll really celebrate, however.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:55 AM

Yep, Banjiman. It's people like you who give the lie to all these doom merchants.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:43 AM

TheSnail,

How bizarre, I wrote my post above before I had seen your's above that.....obviously time for me to interject!

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:40 AM

Captain Ginger (can I call you Ginge?)

I too run a folk club that's not too bad (one could always do more of course).

We started last November with 70 in attendance for the first night(Wendy Arrowsmith taking the main guest slot....who you ask, well my wife actually!!!). We have averaged 35-50 for the normal (monthly) club nights since then, main guests have included Tom Bliss, Richard Grainger, Keepers Fold and Bill Evans & Meg Lynch (who though all very good , they aren't household names outside the folky world). We had 110 paying customers for the Winter Warmer weekend we ran with Jez Lowe as the main guest ably assisted by Duncan McFarlane Band and a host of other local, regional and acts from elsewhere.

While I agree these may not be Wembley Arena sized crowds and I don't pretend all is well in the folk world (see thread above) it does show that there remains some interest. The club is situated in a small village in North Yorks 15 miles from Darlington and 7 miles from Northallerton....with no public transport links, people really have to try to get here!

We put on 2 or 3 booked acts (including the main guest)in the concert room for each club night and have a singaround before and after the "concert" in the bar. This means we can cater for all abilities in an appropriate setting, we also work hand in hand with Burneston folk club which is a weekly singaround club. It seems to be working OK.

Not for me to say if it is a well run club....I'll leave that to others....but people are coming in greater numbers than I expected.

.....it ain't all doom and gloom, cheer up mate!

Paul

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:38 AM

Captain Ginger

So far from being committed to rubbishing the folk scene, I'd love to celebrate it.

So what are you doing to make things better? Volunteer to help out at one of your local clubs then you'll be able to influence policy. Better still, start one of your own; take a lesson from Banjiman.

If you can't be part of the solution, at least stop being part of the problem.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:07 AM

I love traditional music - it just depresses me to see it performed ineptly and without due care and attention, and to see the way that some people seem determined to keep it a minority interest by being amateurish rather than amateur; happy to watch it wither and go the way of skiffle and jazz (though, to be fair, jazz has a far more influential following than folk even now that most of the jazz clubs are now Harvesters or whatever)*.
So far from being committed to rubbishing the folk scene, I'd love to celebrate it. Sadly I live too far from Lewes to be able to enjoy it there. A shame really - it would be interesting to be surrounded by lashings of enthusiasm, optimism and the conviction that all is well in the world of folk.
Build it and they will come, eh? Forty-nine tickets is one hell of a start...

*The Lewes Arms is, of course, an unparalleled exception.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:53 AM

Captain Ginger

I'm not rubbishing the scene

Previously -

I've endured all too many dire, unrehearsed and ultimately cringe-making performances.

The more crap performers there are inflicting their nasal bleatings, stumblings and fumblings on the public, the more Parris's snide remarks will find a billet.

These days I don't bother; the enthusiasm has been beaten out of me by too many stultifying evenings of care-in-the-community ineptitude.

The penny has just dropped! You ARE Matthew Parris!

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:39 AM

*sigh*
I'll assume that you're not being obtuse here.
I'm not rubbishing the scene, merely celebrating its diversity and vigour at one end, while bewailing the fact that the matchless Lewes Arms and its incomparable committee seem to stand a lone beacon of brilliance at the other.
Still, we probably wouldn't see eye to on on 'The Imagined Village' either...

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:21 AM

Captain Ginger

Thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly. You seem to be fully committed to rubbishing the folk scene.

I don't know if the Lewes Arms is typical or not but it is certainly not unique in my experience. If nothing else, we show what is possible.

How many have bought tickets for the Town Hall?

I've no idea but if we've sold out and they've sold out, why do you have a problem with that?

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:07 AM

Er, QED, Mr Snail.
How many have bought tickets for the Town Hall? With respect, it's the Bellowheads of this world that are doing more to promote traditional music and bring in new blood than any folk club.
And most nights, given the choice, I know where I'd rather be...

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:01 AM

mattkeen

Stop denying the problem would be a start -

As far as I can see one of the main problems is that quite a few people inside the folk scene (on this thread anyway) insist on telling the world how crap, disorganised and generally awful it all is. That is far more damaging than the prattlings of a failed politician.

By the way, the full house (it will be by the night) for Martin Carthy is alongside Bellowhead at the Town Hall 50yds away on the same night.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:47 AM

I think the problem is that Mr Snail believes that the Lewes Arms is typical of the folk club, session and singaround scene in the UK at the moment. My own experience (and I haven't been to the Lewes Arms, but will believe those who praise it) is that it certainly isn't typical. Believe me, I have experienced some toe-curlingly awful times that have led me to the conclusions set out above.
There was a time when I would make a point of finding out what clubs or sessions were on in any place I was visiting and going to see them. These days I don't bother; the enthusiasm has been beaten out of me by too many stultifying evenings of care-in-the-community ineptitude.

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: mattkeen
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:41 AM

Stop denying the problem would be a start -
and secondly, carry on promoting your club

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:21 AM

I'm sorry, mattkeen, but what do you want us to do?

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: mattkeen
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:04 AM

Snail - Martin's happy because he is also a nice bloke who has always gone out of his way to support folk clubs - that doesn't negate the point I was making

Subject: RE: Our ghastly folk tradition
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:37 AM

Dave Polshaw

Why don't you just invite Matthew Parris to the Lewes folk club

Aaaarrrrgh No! he might like it so much that he'd start bringing his friends like Gyles Brandreth and Ian Dunkin' Donut.