BS: War in Georgia (2008)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:47 AM

From 2005...

Star Wars in Poland

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:04 AM

I really don't know where CarolC finds the spirit to keep trying to reason with utter morons. Loads of good stuff here from LH too, and a good post from Paul Burke (re the Kosovo precedent etc).

I likedbeardedbruce's reference to the insoucience of Europe towards its oil dependency. He probably thinks the US can survive on its indigenous reserves until alternatives come along. Fat chance of that, even after Alaska's been destroyed.

Best of all was Teribus sneering at Russia's concern to feel safe - just as details were being finalised for America to put missiles in Poland precisely to "feel safe." (JFK nearly started WW3 when the USSR tried that in Cuba, which is much farther from the US than Poland is from Russia.) That's been a long-established plan, as pdq may care to note, since he thinks it was dreamt up the other day. But then pdq knows that Iran is a nuclear power, or seeks to be, despite a report to the contrary from his own country's intelligence services. (OK, those intelligence services have been wrong before, and famously, but does pdq know better?)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:33 AM

"It all started when he hit me back!"

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:22 AM

Some folks are forgetting that Georgia started this.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:56 AM

Well, seein' as bb has no intention of answering my last question, which BTW was one of a series that was going to detroy the "offical" mythology/story of Gerogia's Misitry of Defense, I think we call all assume that anything we hear from Georgia cannot be taken as fact.

With that said, I do find it interesting that the Bush administration is using language that is clearly intended to inflame the tensions between the United States and Russia...

When I heard him talking about how bad Russia was for invading a sovergn nation all I could think of was Iraq...

But the most serious part of this is that these entire events, down to Operation Brimstone are nothin' but chess moves on Dick Cheney's ***World (oil) Domination Grand Chess Board***...

Makes me sick to see just how the media, just as they did in the mad-dash-to-Iraq, have taken the bait... There is way too much real information out there for them to just be agents of The Bush/Cheney/Rice War Machine!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:55 AM

The conflict is not over oil. Georgia only has the pipeline run through it. The oilfields are in Azerbaijan, which has not been involved one bit in the conflict. Most of the oil is already controlled by BP.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:30 AM

"CarolC's post however seems to refute the whole idea."

They usually do.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:56 AM

What's this???

McAtheist is convertin' to Islam???

Wow!!! This ain't gonna help his chances of gettin' elected...

Has he changed his name yet??? Jaoni McAli has a nice ring to it... That oughtta get him some votes... Much better than McUgly, or McWar...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:13 AM

pdq

"I believe this is a response by NATO to the Russian military invasion of the last few days."

Exactly what I wrote. My whole sentence began with:

"The russian perspective is that America is using this situation to persuade europe that they need an anti missile defence system installed."

CarolC's post however seems to refute the whole idea.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:57 AM

robomatic,

The poll numbers have not really moved.

It seems to me that the situation in Georgia poses as many problems for McCain as opportunities.

He talked about all his visits there and is joined at the hip with Georgia's chief lobbyist. On the other had he says the conflict was not foreseeable on the third hand he says he warned of it. He talks about banning Russia from the G8, but he doesn't and will never, even if the disaster of his Presidency should occur, have that power. He talks about NATO protection for Georgia but has no cards to play there. He talks about military response when the Iraq war has depleted US forces. It is difficult to see just what benefit we might gain from McCain's experience.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:46 AM

The current tensions between Russia and Georgia are only good for McCain to the extent he can disassociate himself from GWB---who has proven himself, as I noted earlier, to be the anti-TR.

And we've already discussed the worth of "stats".

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:17 AM

Re:   South Ossetia-Georgia (and probably quite a few other conflicts): A short quote from one of BB's posts tells the whole story:   "We must respond to provocations". As long as all sides seem to feel that way--and it seems they do now-- there will be no end to the problem.

But the fact remains that for the majority of South Ossetians, it's clear that Georgia, not Russia, is seen as the aggressor.   Drivel about the Sudetenland notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:46 AM

I've been hearing that the stats indicate that Obama and McCain are in a dead heat right now.

I think the Russian sabre rattling (and not just sabres, and not just rattling) is good for McCain about now.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:56 PM

If McCain thought it would win it for him, he'd convert.

After all, for him its "Country First".

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:52 PM

America can't elect a Muslim president. No such person is running for office.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:47 PM

But if the Americans elect a Muslim president, Chechnya's troubles will be over.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:04 PM

I see my question about where the Chechens should go has not been answered.

If the idea is that they are out of place where they are because they are Muslims, that is not true. Many of the republics surrounding Chechnya also have a majority of Muslims. The fact is that there is no place on earth that has people who are more like the Chechens than the region in which they live.


Poland was already slated to have a missile defense system installed there, long before what just happened in Georgia and South Ossetia. A lot of Russia's behavior has been a response to this. They don't believe that it's purely defensive in nature and that it's not going to be aimed at them. They have good reason to believe this.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:36 PM

"Poland has apparently been given an anti missile capability."

I believe this is a response by NATO to the Russian military invasion of the last few days. They want to show Russia that their actionswill not be wihout consequences. There is nothing built and no actual arms diliverd as this agreement was made today. If this is a wrong impression, I would like to know also.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:23 PM

I'm currently watching RUSSIA TODAY - the English speaking russian news channel.

The official line, repeated again and again is that they are in Georgia on a humanitarian mission.

This conflicts in my view with the information on the BBC

The russian perspective is that America is using this situation to persuade europe that they need an anti missile defence system installed. Poland has apparently been given an anti missile capability.

Apparently they would be reporting from Tshkinvali, but there are Georgian snipers there taking pot shots so it is too dangerous.

They deny that there is any violence in Gori.

On the BBC, I have seen images of Russian soldiers wiping their feet with a Georgian flag.

There is much implied self congratulation for ending the violence in Tshkinvali.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:05 PM

I watched BBC newsnight tonight and listened with great understanding and interest to a Russian spokesman as he explained their official perspective.

I reflected on the images I had just seen on the news which showed Georgian civilians and Western press being shot at by Ossetian seperatists under the cool eye of the russian military on the road between Gori and Tblisi.

As the Russian Representative droned on, I stopped listening and yelled at the screen "why won't you withdraw then?".

Sadly my friends it is indeed true that without an immediate withdrawal of the Russian troops, combined with real policing, rounding up and repatriating of the rampaging Ossetians, the russians words distinctly lack any credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:00 PM

They wear blue helmets. With a UN logo on them.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:55 PM

Danged.... Usually when I ask bruce a question, go back to restin', I come back and he's tried to answer it with 'bout 5 cut 'n posts but, geeze, seems I was a sllep a long time and come back and bruce hasn't found a source that describes what the Russian peace keepers wear???

Hmmmmm???

Oh, an' yeah... There is relevence to this question and next few, bruce because this ol' hillbilly sniffs a Gulf of Tonkin here so will you please answer the question so we can get to the next one???

I mean, if you expect us to accept your arguments based on your expert witness, in this case the Defense Ministry of Georgia, it is only fair to determind wheteher or not thay are a crdible source, right???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:38 PM

I think I'll have a few dozen beer the day Obama is sworn in.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM

Unless the Tiger is George Bush, the dude who Fu#ked with him you just moved to Pakistan while he spends a trillion dollars making Iraq nearly, nearly as peaceful, safe and stable as he found it.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:18 PM

Fu#k with the tiger, ya get a face fulla claws.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:16 PM

Bruce,

I take it that you were for what Israel did to Lebanon in the response to the kidnapping of a couple of soldiers a couple of years ago. Isn't what Russia did in response to the shelling of its peace keepers about the same? How can you support one and not the other.

By the way, I think that both hugely over reacted and were playing broader geopolitical games. But isn't sauce for the goose sauce for the gander.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:36 PM

Woah, bruce, whoa... Slow down, son, yer gonna hurt yerself and in yer haste, maybe miss the fact that your intial time line argument, based on Georgian sources, may not hold water...

Okay, so there were Russian "peace keeping" forced in South Ossetia last Thursday... That is a good start to debunking the rest of the Georgian version...

So, Bruce... Were they dressed up in tie-dyed shirts walkin' 'round with flowers??? If not, how were they dressed???

We're gonna take this real slow, bruce, so ya' might as well just get used to it but I'm sure we'll all benefit in the end...

Please answer the question the best you can... One paragraph will do nicely...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:19 PM

I can go into Wikipedia and change those entries that have been posted to anything I want any time I want. Why should I or anyone else accept Wikipedia as someone's sole source of documentation? At least is Wikipedia is going to be used, back it up with some supporting documentation. On its own, it has no credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM

CarolC,

U have posted from other sources, and I stated:
"RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:52 PM

1. My "Facts" are from sources that I cannot verify ( from both sides- someone is lying, but I do not know who)"

You have made the claim that all of your information is absolute truth, and cannot be questioned, even though it is obtained from a biased party in the conflict.

So who died and made you God?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:38 PM

ad hominim attack, CarolC. If you care to demonstrate something false in my posts, feel free- but to declare the posts that you do not agree with invalid because you do not agree is admitting you have no valid data yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:37 PM

As opposed to??/
The Telegraph? The Russian cable service? The South Ossetian Government?


Tell me again ( or rather, for the first time) how you have such god-like certainty about what is happening

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:36 PM

No one accepts Wikipedia as an authority on anything. One might just as well be providing documentation from Dr. Seuss.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:34 PM

Ahh... I see that all of someone's documentation is still coming from Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:32 PM

The Georgians did that to crush South Ossetia's efforts to split off from Georgia. Georgia had no right to do that. South Ossetia has as much right to declare itself no longer a part of Georgia as Georgia had to declare itself an independent state. That makes Georgia the aggressor.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:30 PM

BTW, Bobert:

"Under the terms of a ceasefire agreement concluded in June 1992, a peacekeeping force including South Ossetian, Georgian and Russian troops was deployed along the Georgian-South Ossetian border to maintain the status quo"

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:28 PM

The South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast was created in 1922 after the Soviet occupation of Georgia. Hostilities broke out in 1918–1920 after the First World War along with various Caucasian conflicts.

In the late 1980s, when perestroika policy initiated by Premier Gorbachev, rising nationalism in the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic (SSR) and country's movement towards independence were opposed by the Ossetian nationalistic organization, Ademon Nykhas (Popular Front), which demanded greater autonomy for the region and finally, unification with Russia's North Ossetia. On November 10, 1989, the South Ossetian Supreme Soviet approved a decision to unite South Ossetia with the North Ossetian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, part of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic. However, a day later, the Georgian SSR Supreme Soviet revoked the decision and on 23 November, thousands of Georgian nationalists led by Zviad Gamsakhurdia and other opposition leaders marched to Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital, to hold a meeting there. The Ossetians mobilized blocking the road and only the interference of Soviet Army units could avoid the clash between the two demonstrations. The Soviet commanders made Georgian demonstrators turn back. However, several people were wounded in subsequent clashes between Georgians and Ossetians.

On 20 September 1990, the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast declared independence as the South Ossetian Democratic Soviet Republic, appealing to Moscow to recognise it as an independent subject of the Soviet Union. When the election of the Georgian Supreme Council took place in October 1990, it was boycotted by the South Ossetians. On December 10, 1990, South Ossetia held its own elections, declared illegal by Georgia. A day later, Georgian Supreme Soviet canceled the results of the Ossetian elections and abolished South Ossetian autonomy.[1]

On December 11, 1990, several bloody incidents occurred in and around Tskhinvali. Georgian government declared a state of emergency in the districts of Tskhinvali and Java on December 12. Georgian police and National Guards units were dispatched in the region to disarm Ossetian armed groups.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:24 PM

Correction to a previous post of mine...


Going back to 1991, the Georgians have been the aggressors.

The conflict began in 1990 when South Ossetia declared itself a Soviet Republic, a move rejected by Georgia, which abolished the region's autonomous status.

Fighting broke out in January 1991 when Georgian forces entered South Ossetia's capital Tskhinvali.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2522621/South-Ossetia-factbox.html

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

Boboert, you would be closer to the mark if you said that the USA's main goal here is to put up a presence around a rival and potential threat's territory. Power, keeping your nation on top, is the name of the game.

Russia is going to keep on flexing it's muscles until Saakashvili is replaced with someone more pliable. They have pretty much said so.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:22 PM

Ah yes, after all the cut and paste, we are left with the unpalatable truth(for some)that this is big payback time for the Russians...and the reason? Basically Western stupidity and short sightedness.

Since the nineties the West, and the USA in particular have treated Russia in the most dismissive manner,ignoring their input on Kosovo, Iraq, Nato membership for Baltic countries. That was short sighted
The stupid part was in attempting to make Georgia an ally and an outpost of US influence, without taking into account ethnic tensions or our future dependence on Russian energy supplies.

America's humiliation in Georgia has been brought about by their own arrogance in supporting and arming a madman(Saakashvili) in an attempt to humiliate Russia.
Bruce, Teribus, pdq and all the other right wingers, who usually trumpet the slogan "might is right", dont like it one little bit when WE are not "the mighty".
They conveniently forget what Georgia has done to South Ossetia...The carving of Kosovo from Serbia...Reagan's invasion of Grenada...Iraq...Afghanistan...the list is endless...Vietnam?

There are many lessons to be learned from the games being played out in Georgia, but the greatest is to NATO and to the Empire which controls it. Do you really want to incorporate the ethnic feuds of the ex-Soviet Caucasian states into your alliance, just to rub salt into the bear's wounds?

As I stated earlier the balance of power is shifting, Russia's star is rising and no amount of sabre rattling or appeals to hypocritical "democratic ideals" is going to make any difference.

At last the West is going to have to play second fiddle and start listening to the tune

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:20 PM

beardedbruce says :"So, the Russian Peacekeeping force is now occupying what territory? "

Bobert says :"BTW, Bruce, let me make it easier for you... Were there Russians assigned to the peace keeping force last Thursday???"



Let me make it easy for YOU, since your illness has affected your reading skills- The Peacekeeping force included Russians.



"The 2008 Georgian - Russia crisis began on March 6, 2008 when Russia announced that it would no longer participate in the Commonwealth of Independent States economic sanctions imposed on Abkhazia in 1996.[1] The crisis has been linked to the push for Georgia to receive a NATO Membership Action Plan and the unilateral declaration of independence by Kosovo.[2] Tensions in the crisis have been primarily centered around the breakaway state of Abkhazia and increased following the shootdown of a Georgian UAV drone airplane and subsequent buildup of military forces by Russia."

"Responding to Kosovo's recent declaration of independence, Russian officials declared Moscow should "reshape its relations with self-proclaimed republics".[3] Russia responded to these calls for increased ties by lifting CIS sanctions, declaring them "outdated, impeding the socio-economic development of the region, and causing unjustified hardship for the people of Abkhazia".[1] Russia also called on other CIS members to undertake similar steps, but met with protests from Tbilisi and lack of support from the other CIS countries.[4] Shalva Natelashvili, leader of the Labour Party of Georgia, warned Abkhazia would be "finally separated from Georgia" and cited the lifting of sanctions as the first sign.[5] Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt, raised similar concerns about the dropping of trade restrictions saying, "That could look like a de facto annexation and that would be a matter of great concern if it were the case."[6]"

"Russia's state-owned Gazprom was reported to be planning oil and gas exploration in Abkhazia beginning July 1, 2008. In addition Abkhazia said international airline flights from Russia could use Sokhumi airport though the International Civil Aviation Organization said such flights would be unacceptable.[14] Officials from Gazprom said there were no plans for oil exploration in Abkhazia, but did say there was a proposal being considered to build a gas pipeline to Abkhazia.[15] Responding to Russian media reports that sea links between Sochi in Russia and Gagra in Abkhazia would be resumed, Georgia threatened to appeal to international marine organizations over the use of "illegal" routes.[16]"


"However, Georgia's defence ministry released video the next day showing what appears to be a Russian MiG-29 shooting down the unarmed Georgian drone. The video, shot from the drone moments before impact, shows a jet launching a missile over what appears to be the Black Sea. According to Georgia the jet came from Gudauta and then returned to Russia. Moscow denied Georgia's accusation and stressed that none of its planes were in the region at the time.[18][19] Furthermore, Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a statement accusing Georgia of violating 1994 Moscow agreement and United Nations resolutions on Abkhazia by deploying without authorisation a UAV (which also can be used to direct fire) in the Security Zone and the Restricted Weapons Zone.[20]

On April 24, a closed-door U.N. Security Council emergency session convened at Georgia's request failed to resolve the dispute, but the U.S., the United Kingdom, France and Germany issued a joint statement expressing their concern over Russia's recent moves in Abkhazia and calling Moscow to reverse or not to implement its decision to legalize ties with Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The Russian ambassador to the U.N. Vitaly Churkin called the demand by the Western states "a tall order" and stressed that Russia had no intention of reversing its plans.[21]"



"On August 12, 2008 at 09:00 UTC Russian president and Russian Army Supreme Commander-in-Chief Dmitry Medvedev stated that "peace enforcing operation in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone" was over.[69] Later, Russian General Staff Deputy Head Anatoly Nogovitsyn said armed actions would stop, but reconnaissance operations would continue.[70]

On August 13, a reporter for the UK Guardian stated that "the idea there is a ceasefire is ridiculous," and that he could see villages near Gori burning, amidst claims that Chechen, Cossack and Ossetian irregulars were advancing through Georgian villages.[71] CNN reported that journalists in Gori said they had seen no Russian tanks, contrary to claims by the Georgian president.[72] According to Sky News, Georgia's deputy interior minister said "I'd like to calm everybody down. The Russian military is not advancing towards the capital." The same report said "Sky News correspondents Stuart Ramsay and Jason Farrell confirmed there were tanks in Gori, which has suffered extensively from Russian bombing raids"[73] Al Jazeera reported a "continuous build up" of Russian forces in Poti throughout the day, and the destruction of several Georgian vessels.[74] Russia's deputy chief of General Staff Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn said sporadic clashes continued in South Ossetia between Georgian snipers and Russian troops. "We must respond to provocations," he said.[75]"

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:10 PM

It looks to me like Russia is going to continue to flex its muscles until Georgia signs a non use of force agreement and agrees that it will not try to force the provinces that have broken away to be reabsorbed into Georgia.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080814/world/georgia_russia

It also looks to me like Russia is trying to teach Georgia that it's not in that country's best interests to be on a short leash that is controlled by the US.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:03 PM

Georgia is nothin' more than a pawn on the neo-cons chess board to be used like an irritating gnat... Cheney is the one pulling the strings here and the entire prize is capturing the oil reserves in the Middle East... Porblem is that this is more of the failed Bush foriegn policy that is build around miliatray solution with a military that is slowly being decimated and an economy that can not afford to rebuild it...

BTW, Bruce, let me make it easier for you... Were there Russians assigned to the peace keeping force last Thursday???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM

"how do you say 'pipeline' in Russian ? or oil for that matter ?

get used to it... the bear is back and is swimming in lotsa crude.."

Oil is far from the prime issue here, especially as Russia controls the majority of it in that part of the world!!!
Not all the world is as obsessed with oil as the American public seems to be.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:00 PM

Yes. I have said myself that they are all to blame in some measure. That is usually so in these regional struggles.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:00 PM

I think folks that we must be careful of Putin, his credentials and what he has done to his rivals recently.

He has a billionaire in a cage - just to let him know who's boss

He poisoned the spy - was his name litvinienko? - anyway - he used a gruesome radioactive poison to murder an opponent.

He is a dangerous reactionary and I am more concerned about him than I can ignore.

I found myself agreeing with Ms Rice.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM

And going back to 1991?

Whatever date one picks, the sides can be flipped by going further back.

I do NOT hold Georgia blameless- But the South Ossetians have a large degree of fault, as do the Russians. To fail to acknowledge this, and blame ONLY the Georgians, is to abandon all hope of reaching a realistic solution.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM

Be glad, BB, that they are not occupying all of Georgia. They have the power to do so, but perhaps enough wisdom not to use it. The USA is occupying all of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:55 PM

Going back to 2001, the Georgians have been the aggressors.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

Not looking back to July.

So, the Russian Peacekeeping force is now occupying what territory?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM

No, the aggressor is he who launches the initial full scale invasion, Bruce. That was Georgia. There were undoubtedly some provocations on both sides prior to that, and no one is entirely blameless in the matter, but the Georgians are the aggressor.

They have suffered a sort of similar result (though on a much, much smaller scale) to what Saddam's Iraq suffered when it went into Kuwait...and Iraq was the undeniable aggressor in that case.

No 2 ways about it. Georgia was the undeniable aggressor in this case.