BS: GeorgiaGate...

Subject: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:06 PM

Well, well, well...

Here we go again... If anyone needed further proff that a McSame administration would be a break from rhw current batch of crooks here we have a $200,000 a year lobbiest for Georgia also advising McSame on foriegn policies as related to Georgia???

I also find it real curious that as the Russians were bombed Georgia that the Gorgian Embassey requested that McCain call Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili... Why wouldn't the Georgian Emabassey request a call from the presodent of the United States... Or Donald Q. Duck??? These are legitimate legal questions that if McSame was a Dem. the Repubs would have every court in the lnad clogged with law suits...

Personally, as a tax payer, I'm getting a l;ittle sick and tired of my taxes being used to try to brainwash me and my fellow countrymen...

Time for the Dems to take off the gloves and call for an investigation of Randy Schueunemann, the lobbiest, his company< Orian Startegies, and the McCain campaign...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:52 PM

jeez howdwe come to the same CON clusion???


We were getting tired of AlQada anyway,
now Russia as our good old cold war enemy (with some really GOOD nukes) should whip us all back into submission to our Republican war machine Via the only true miltary master JOHN MC CAIN"T.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:53 PM

I guess we who have lived through the same tactics see them more clearly the 5th time around.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:39 PM

Tee hee ...

You cheeky monkeys ...

I have to admit I did enjoy watching CBS news last night, particularly the bit after the georgia report which talked about how McCain was relaunching his campaign with vigour.

Incidental headlines in the background "informed" me that some commentators feel Obama doesn't have the experience to lead America whilst others feel that McCain, with his military background, is a good man to have around in a crisis.

I chuckled to myself as I observed how, on a collage behind the newsreaders head featuring the heads of McCain and Obama, McCain was noticeably higher up than Obama giving the impression that Obama was somehow subservient to him....

... that was of course until the computer generated image changed in such a way that Obama's face smoothly disappeared and McCains endured.

The report continued with a short overview of McCains feelings on the subject of the Georgia conflict, as though that was really what we all needed to know.

It entertained me.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

The entire thing should be entertaining, lox, but it isn't... IT is amazing to me that the United Sates has become anation of proagandized people who don't give a flyin' crap about anything except consuming... The sad thing is that the neo-cons have had this planned going back to the Iraq debackle... And they have gone out and corraled some more somewhat respectable names to add to their roster such as Richard Cahen, Maddie Albrighta and Richard Holebrooke who have knocked back the koolaid and are now ready to serve it to anyone who will listen... There is a major truth void and not too many folks left to tell it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:55 PM

Standard maneuvering. I'm not surprised in the least.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 09:49 AM

"Amnesty International is particularly concerned by the reported formation in and around South Ossetia of irregular, locally organized armed groups able to act with impunity, increasing the potential dangers for civilians," the group said in a statement. It reported looting, burning and beatings.

"To be sure, there was indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force on both sides of the conflict," Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch told a briefing earlier this week in Washington.

"However, the bulk of the looting and burning of property and attacks on civilians was conducted by South Ossetian militias and ordinary criminals who were allowed to operate in the areas controlled by Russian forces."

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 09:56 AM

Amnesty also said that 100 or more civilian homes were shelled by the Georgian forces. Wonder why that wasn't mentioned in the above post.

100 civilian houses is a lot of civilian houses.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:00 AM

100 is a lot LESS than 576, though.





"The images, taken on August 10 and 19, show 424 civilian structures near Tskhinvali intact on August 10 but damaged by the 19th. In Tamarasheni 152 structures that were intact on August 10 seemed to have been damaged by the 19th.

Amnesty said the images support on-the-ground reports that more than 100 civilian houses in Tskhinvali were shelled during the initial Georgian bombardment."

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:04 AM

They haven't established who was responsible for the 576 yet. They are still investigating.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:09 AM

"Georgia says Russia fully controlled Tskhinvali by August 10, but Russia has said Georgian troops inflicted most of the damage to civilian areas of South Ossetia."

Photos show the houses on Aug. 10. They are destroyed on 19 Aug.

"However, the bulk of the looting and burning of property and attacks on civilians was conducted by South Ossetian militias and ordinary criminals who were allowed to operate in the areas controlled by Russian forces."

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM

"The images analyzed by the American Association for the Advancement of Science's Science and Human Rights Program do not show who was responsible for the damage -- Georgia, Russia or other groups."

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:20 AM

CarolC,

Please think about this. The Russians moved in with overwhelming force and OCCUPIED the area. THERE WAS NO Georgian attack on S. Ossetia AFTER THE RUSSIAN occupation.

The houses were there when Russia occupied- note the 100 that WERE damaged BY THE GEORGIAN SHELLING ( blame assigned to Georgia). They WERE damaged or destroyed n the Aug 19 pictures- so the conclusion reached by Amnesty that "the bulk of the looting and burning of property and attacks on civilians was conducted by South Ossetian militias and ordinary criminals WHO WERE ALLOWED TO OPERATE
in the areas controlled by Russian forces." is a reasonable one.

Blame to Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:23 AM

Russia was also accusing Georgia of continuing to shell South Ossetia after the 10th. It wasn't necessary for Georgian forces to be inside the area that Russia controlled to be able to continue to shell houses.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:25 AM

In fact, the continued shelling of South Ossetia by Georgia is the reason the Russians moved beyond the area of South Ossetia into undisputed Georgian territory in the first place - to take out the weapons the Georgians were using to shell the South Ossetians.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Sawzaw
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:38 AM

"Personally, as a tax payer, I'm getting a l;ittle sick and tired of my taxes being used to try to brainwash me and my fellow countrymen"

Well well well. I didn't realize Bobert pays taxes to Georgia so they could use it to hire Randy Scheunemann.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:40 AM

I have no reason to believe that.


"
August 11 - Russia ruled out peace talks with Georgia until the latter withdrew from South Ossetia and signed a legally binding pact renouncing the use of force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia.[102]
On that night, Russian paratroopers deployed in Abkhazia carried out raids deep inside Georgian territory to destroy military bases from where Georgia could send reinforcements to its troops sealed off in South Ossetia. Russian forces reached the military base near the town of Senaki outside Abkhazia on the 11th, leaving the base there destroyed.[103] Gori was shelled and bombed by the Russians as the Georgian military and most of residents of the Gori District fled.
"

The Russians were actively shelling Georgians after they ( the Russians) occupied S. Ossetia. I have seen NO indication that Georgia did any shelling of civilians after the initial attack on the 7th.



"This weekend's fighting was provoked by Russian-advised South Ossetian separatists; Georgia foolishly responded to the provocation; and Russia was ready to roll in with a large armored force."



Conclusion by Amnsety:

"However, the bulk of the looting and burning of property and attacks on civilians was conducted by South Ossetian militias and ordinary criminals who were allowed to operate in the areas controlled by Russian forces."

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:52 AM

Sorry, Carol,


But given the choice of believing Russia or believing Amnesty, Georgia, The UN, the EU, and others, I guess I will lean towards the Amnesty conclusion.



I could be wrong- it might have been Hezboallah groups engaged in demolition training- but I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 05:49 PM

Amnesty is only addressing looting, burning, and attacks on civilians in that sentance. They do not say that these things were the cause of the destruction in the satellite images. Amnesty has not made any claims about who is responsible for that destruction. They are saying that they are investigating.

The only one (besides Georgia and Russia) who is making claims about who is responsible, is the person in this thread who is arguing with me. Amnesty has made no such claims.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:13 PM

Back to the bottom line... Who fired the first shots???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:35 AM

Back in 1991?

August 6th?

August 7th?


August 11th?


"first" is ha hard term to define- Gearogia attacked S. Ossetia in reaction to attacks from there on it, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to earlier attacks, which were in reaction to ...


etc.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:10 AM

Bruce is being a bit overly cute here--if not disingenuous. It is fairly clear that the serious friction started at the time of the fall of the USSR--when Georgia successfully prevented South Ossetia from staying with North Ossetia. North Ossetia, realizing it had more chance for a degree of autonomy under Russia than under Georgia, opted to do so. South Ossetia tried to do the same, but was stopped by Georgia. There were many deaths at the time--far more than in the August 2008 war.

If anybody has facts--not just wishful thinking--to the contrary, let's have them.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM

Bad answer, bb... We ain't talkin' shots fired in return for shots fired 10 or 20 years ago but shots fired during the "latest" skimish... Seems that crredible sources have those shots being fired by the Georginas...

If the Russians had fired them then, yeah, Georgia would have been legally permitted to defend itself... But doesn't look as if that was the case...

Might of fact, with all the John McCain bluster and his own staff memeber a lobbiest for the Georgian governemnt it is questionable if Georgia would have been so brazen to do what it did... It was stupid on their part... Very stupid...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:26 AM

"Seems that crredible sources have those shots being fired by the Georginas..."


Sorry, we have been argueing about that. Georgia called for a ceasefire, and then was attacked by S. Ossetian sources. The shelling of Tilblesi was is respnse to those attacks- at which point the Russian troops that had been pre-positioned ( for weeks) invaded Georgia.

There are questions about wat happened where and when, but unless you accept the Russian statements ONLY, you will realize that there is blame on both sides ( The Georgians did use excessive force in their response, but it was a response to an attack.)

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:39 AM

OK Bruce, you brought up 1991. Let's have answers on my observations.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:43 AM

Yes we have been arguing about that, and the only way one can claim that Georgia was responding to an attack is if they are getting their information entirely from the government of Georgia - no more of an unbiased source than the government of Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM

In the late 1980s, when perestroika policy initiated by Premier Gorbachev, rising nationalism in the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic (SSR) and country's movement towards independence were opposed by the Ossetian nationalistic organization, Ademon Nykhas (Popular Front) (created in 1988), which demanded greater autonomy for the region and finally, unification with Russia's North Ossetia. On November 10, 1989, the South Ossetian Supreme Soviet approved a decision to unite South Ossetia with the North Ossetian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, part of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic. However, a day later, the Georgian SSR Supreme Soviet revoked the decision and on 23 November, thousands of Georgian nationalists led by Zviad Gamsakhurdia and other opposition leaders marched to Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital, to hold a meeting there. The Ossetians mobilized blocking the road and only the interference of Soviet Army units could avoid the clash between the two demonstrations. The Soviet commanders made Georgian demonstrators turn back. However, several people were wounded in subsequent clashes between Georgians and Ossetians.

By the beginning of 1990 South Ossetian forces had 300-400 poorly armed fighters, however their number grew to about 1,500 in six-months time. Main source of small arms for South Ossetian militias was the Soviet Army helicopter regiment based in Tskhinvali. Ethnic Georgians in neighbouring villages also organised a self-defence force known as Merab Kostava Society. Rivalling militias engaged in sporadic low-level fighting.[1]

The Georgian Supreme Council adopted a law barring regional parties in summer 1990. This was interpreted by Ossetians as a move against Ademon Nykhas and on 20 September 1990, the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast declared independence as the South Ossetian Democratic Soviet Republic, appealing to Moscow to recognise it as an independent subject of the Soviet Union. When the election of the Georgian Supreme Council took place in October 1990, it was boycotted by the South Ossetians. On December 10, 1990, South Ossetia held its own elections, declared illegal by Georgia. A day later, Georgian Supreme Soviet canceled the results of the Ossetian elections and abolished South Ossetian autonomy.[2]

On December 11, 1990, several bloody incidents occurred in and around Tskhinvali. Georgian government declared a state of emergency in the districts of Tskhinvali and Java on December 12. Georgian police and National Guards units were dispatched in the region to disarm Ossetian armed groups.

At the time of the dissolution of the USSR, the United States government recognized as legitimate the pre-Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact 1933 borders of the country (the Franklin D. Roosevelt government established diplomatic relations with the Kremlin at the end of that year[3]). Because of this, the George H. W. Bush administration openly supported the restoration of independence of the Baltic SSRs, but regarded the questions related to the independence and territorial conflicts of Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and the rest of the Transcaucasus — which were integral part of the USSR with international borders unaltered since the 1920s — as internal Soviet affairs.[4]


The Ossetian–Georgian tensions escalated into a 1991–1992 war which killed some 3,000 people.


Hatched shading shows Georgian-controlled areas in South Ossetia in June 2007 (according to Tbilisi, Georgia)[5].
[edit] The ceasefire
Georgian and Ossetian sides began Russian and OSCE-mediated negotiations on peaceful resolution of the conflict on October 30, 1995. The major break through in negotiation happened in May 1996 when the two sides signed a 'Memorandum on measures for providing security and joint confidence' in which the two sides renounced the use of force. This was followed up by several meetings between then-President of Georgia, Eduard Shevardnadze, and de facto President of South Ossetia Ludwig Chibirov, and their respective heads of governments.

Refugees resettled in the zone of conflict but still only in small numbers, the major obstacle being the economic situation in the region. Numerous small steps of co-operation between Georgians and Ossetians took place.

During this time there was an absence of central control over the region.[6] The Ergneti market on the outskirts of Tskhinvali was a large trade hub through which smuggling lost Georgia significant revenue.[6] This trade increased support for the breakaway Kokoity regime.[6] The unresolved conflict encouraged development of such illegal activities as kidnapping, drug-trafficking and arms trading.[7]

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:49 AM

When Mikheil Saakashvili was elected President in 2003, he made his goals clear to return the two breakaway regions of Georgia under central control. He chose NATO, especially the U.S. as his key allies in foreign policy, in exchange he received financial and material support from western countries. U.S. advisers started to train Georgian forces to make them professional in unequal style fighting against militants under the aegis of "War on Terrorism". Georgia became the third largest participant of U.S. coalition in terms of numbers after U.S. and U.K.. Georgia received free weapons from U.S., Israel, Germany, and Baltic states. The country's military budget, replenished with U.S. aid increased steadily since Saakashvili's entering to office. In this situation, tensions between Georgia and its breakaway republics was on the rise. In May 2004, following the success in another poorly-controlled province of Ajara (the Ajars are closer to ethnic Georgians), President Mikheil Saakashvili's government turned their attention to South Ossetia. Saakashvili offered humanitarian aid to both the Georgian and Ossetian population and promised to give the region broad autonomy.[8]

In mid-June, Georgian police shut down the Ergneti market, which was a major trading point for tax-free goods from Russia. These Georgian actions made the situation more tense. In retaliation, South Ossetian forces closed the highway between Russia and Georgia for several days. Georgia's regional administration began to restore the roads between Georgian-populated Patara Liakhvi and Didi Liakhvi gorges by-passing separatist-controlled capital Tskhinvali and dispatched military patrols to control them. On July 7, Georgian peacekeepers intercepted a Russian convoy, which led to tensions between Tbilisi and Moscow. The next day, around 50 Georgian peacekeepers were disarmed and detained by the South Ossetian militias. In retaliation, Saakashvili refused to attend peace talks. Large numbers of Georgians moved into the border areas, and there was frequent artillery fire for several days. The Georgian soldiers captured were all released on July 9, with three exceptions.


A Georgian sniper takes aim at Ossetian rebels.Tensions between Tbilisi and Moscow continued to worsen when the Russian Duma passed a resolution supporting the South Ossetian secessionists. The fellow unrecognized states Abkhazia and Transnistria, Cossack communities of Russia and the North Ossetians promised to support South Ossetia if Georgia attacked. Hundreds of Russian volunteers, mainly Cossacks, arrived in South Ossetia to defend the separatist government.

A ceasefire deal was reached on August 13, after three nights of gun and mortar fire. The agreement was signed by Georgian Prime Minister Zurab Zhvania and South Ossetian de facto President Eduard Kokoity. However, the agreement was violated shortly after the signing. The bloodiest clashes occurred on August 18 and August 19. On August 19, after the overnight fighting with several killed and wounded on the both sides, Georgian forces seized a strategic hill near the Ossetian village of Trianakhana. However, shortly after the successful operation, President Mikheil Saakashvili announced that Georgia will give "a last chance for peace" to the South Ossetians and added that Tbilisi will pullout its non-peacekeeping troops from the conflict zone in exchange of peace. Georgian troops handed over strategic hilltops in the conflict zone to the joint peacekeeping forces late on the same day. As reported,[who?] 16 Georgians and dozens of Ossetian and Russian volunteers died during the August fighting.

At a high level meeting between Georgian Prime Minister Zurab Zhvania and South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity on 5 November in Sochi, Russia, an agreement on demilitarisation of the conflict zone was signed. Some exchange of fire continued in the zone of conflict.[citation needed]

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:50 AM

Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili presented a new vision for resolving the South Ossetian conflict at the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) session in Strasbourg, on January 26, 2005. His proposal included broader forms of autonomy, including a constitutional guarantee of free and directly elected local self-governance. Saakashvili stated that South Ossetia's parliament would have control over issues such as culture, education, social policy, economic policy, public order, organization of local self-governance and environmental protection. At the same time South Ossetia would have a voice in the national structures of government as well, with a constitutional guarantee of representation in the judicial and constitutional-judicial branches and in the Parliament. Georgia would commit to improving the economic and social conditions of South Ossetian inhabitants. Saakashvili proposed a transitional 3-year conflict resolution period, during which time mixed Georgian and Ossetian police forces, under the guidance and auspices of international organizations, would be established and Ossetian forces would gradually be integrated into a united Georgian Armed Forces. Saakashvili also said that the international community should play a more "significant" and "visible" role in solving this conflict.


[edit] 2006 attack on a Georgian helicopter
On September 3, 2006, the South Ossetian forces opened fire at a Georgian MI-8 helicopter carrying Defense Minister of Georgia, Irakli Okruashvili, and the Deputy Chief of Staff of the Georgian armed forces, when it flew over the separatist-held territory. Although the South Ossetian authorities reported that the Georgian helicopter was "shot down", it was only slightly damaged and landed safely in Georgian government-controlled territory. Later, the South Ossetian officials confirmed their troops were responsible for the attack, saying that the entering of the Georgian helicopter to Ossetian air space is "clear provocation", but rejected the claim that the aircraft was targeted because of prior intelligence that Okruashvili was on board.[9]


[edit] 2006 October incident

Islamic literature allegedly seized from the militants.
Weapons seized from the militants.On October 31, 2006, the South Ossetian police reported a skirmish in the Java, Georgia district in which they killed a group of 4 men.[10][11] The weapons seized from the group included assault rifles, guns, grenade launchers, grenades and explosive devices. Other items found in the militants' possession included extremist Islamic literature, maps of Java district and sets of Russian peacekeeping uniforms. Those findings led the South Ossetian authorities to conclude that the militants were planning to carry out acts of sabotage, thus raising tensions ahead of the independence referendum scheduled for November 12, 2006. The South Ossetian authorities identified the men as Kist Chechens, many of whom live in Georgia's Pankisi Gorge. South Ossetia has accused Georgia of hiring the Chechen mercenaries to carry out terrorist attacks in the region. Russia has previously accused Georgia of harbouring Chechen separatists in the gorge.[citation needed]

The Georgian side flatly denied its involvement in the incident. Shota Khizanishvilia, a spokesperson for the Georgian Interior Ministry, supposed that the incident could be connected to "internal conflicts in South Ossetia".[citation needed]

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:50 AM

On November 12, 2006, two rival elections and simultaneous referendums were held in South Ossetia. The separatist-controlled part of the region reelected Eduard Kokoity as de facto president and voted for independence from Georgia. In the areas under Georgia's control, the Ossetian opposition, with unofficial backing from Tbilisi, organized rival polls electing Dmitry Sanakoyev, the former premier in the secessionist government, as an "alternative president" and voted for negotiations with Georgia on a future federal agreement. Both Tskhinvali and Moscow denounced the move as Georgia's attempt to install "a puppet government" in the conflict zone.


Georgia's new initiative
On May 10, 2007, Dmitry Sanakoyev was appointed as Head of the South Ossetian Provisional Administrative Entity by the President of Georgia. The next day, Sanakoyev addressed the Parliament of Georgia, outlining his vision of the conflict resolution plan (full text).[12] This move earned approval from the United States State Department,[citation needed] but alarmed the de facto authorities in Tskhinvali.[citation needed] The South Ossetian separatists threatened to oust Sanakoyev's government by force.[citation needed] However, this met with Russia's disapproval.[clarify][13]

On July 24, 2007, Tbilisi held its first state commission to define South Ossetia's status within the Georgian state. Chaired by Georgian Prime Minister Zurab Noghaideli, the commission included ruling National Movement Party lawmakers, an opposition party member, civil society advocates, Dmitry Sanakoyev, and representatives of the Ossetian community in Georgia. Georgian officials announced that they would welcome the involvement of Kokoity's envoys, but the Tskhinvali government refused to participate. In response, Sanakoyev's supporters launched a campaign "Kokoity Fanderast" or "Kokoity Farewell" in Ossetic.


Tsitelubani missile incident 2007
Main article: 2007 Georgia missile incident
On August 7, 2007, a missile landed, but did not explode, in the Georgian-controlled village of Tsitelubani, some 65 km north of Tbilisi. Georgian officials said that two Russian fighter jets violated its airspace and fired a missile, targeting a nearby Georgian radar outpost.[14] Russian and South Ossetian authorities accused Georgia of staging a false flag operation in order to provoke tension in the region. Two investigative groups from NATO countries - Shaakasvili's key allies - reported that the jet entered Georgian airspace from Russia, but Russian officials rejected this conclusion, citing their own investigation.[15]

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:51 AM

Also, the claim that Georgia was responding to an attack completely ignores the rhetoric of the government of Georgia, that it intended to do precisely what it did, for the purpose of forcing South Ossetia back into Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:51 AM

"...Georgian SSR Supreme Soviet revoked the decision".   What right, pray tell, did they have to do this?

Read your own article carefully, BB.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:51 AM

2008 clashes

During the 2004 clashes: men from the 113th elite batallion from the Georgian army are charging up a hill where Ossetian rebels are entrenched. They are shooting from their positions on top on that hill.On the night of June 14 into the early morning of June 15, 2008, mortar fire and an exchange of gunfire were reported between South Ossetian and Georgian forces. South Ossetia reported that mortar fire was launched from Georgian-controlled villages on Tshinkvali, the South Ossetian capital, and that their forces came under fire from Georgian forces on the outskirts of the capital. Georgia denies firing the first shot claiming instead that South Ossetia had attacked the Georgian-controlled villages.[16] Russian, Georgian, and North Ossetia peacekeepers as well as OSCE monitors went to the site of the clashes, but it was not determined who fired the first shot. One person was killed and four wounded during the violence.[17]

A South Ossetian police official was killed in a bomb attack on July 3, 2008 and this was followed by an intense exchange of gun fire. Later a convoy carrying the leader of the Tbilisi-backed South Ossetian provisional administration, Dmitry Sanakoyev, was attacked and three of his security guards injured. On July 4, 2008 two people were killed as a result of shelling and shooting in Tskhinvali and some villages in South Ossetia. The South Ossetian Press and Information Committee reported that a South Ossetian militiaman had been killed and another injured in an attack on a police post in the village of Ubia and this was followed by the shelling of Tskhinvali, which resulted in the death of one man. The shelling reportedly involved the use of mortars and grenade launchers. Georgia claimed it had opened fire in response to the shelling by South Ossetian militiamen of Georgian-controlled villages.[18] South Ossetia called up military reservists and put its security forces on alert in response to the clashes. The head of Russia's peacekeeping troops in the region was quoted as saying extra soldiers could be deployed if the stand-off worsened.[19] South Ossetia warned it would move heavy weaponry into the conflict zone with Georgia if attacks on the republic were not stopped. [20]

The Georgian Ministry of Defense said on July 7, 2008 a group of up to ten militiamen were apparently prevented from placing mines on a Georgian-controlled by-pass road linking the Georgian villages in the north of Tskhinvali with the rest of Georgia. The Georgian side opened fire and the group was forced to retreat towards the nearby South Ossetian-controlled village. On July 8, 2008 South Ossetia reported that it had detained four "officers from the artillery brigade of the Georgian Ministry of Defense" close to the village of Okona in the Znauri district at the administrative border the night before.[21] Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili told police to prepare an operation to free the four soldiers, but they were released before an operation was launched.[22]

Russian military jets flew into Georgian airspace through South Ossetia on July 9, 2008 and then returned to Russia. The next day, the Russian authorities confirmed the flight and said, in an official statement, that the fighters were sent to prevent Georgia from launching an operation to free the four soldiers detained by South Ossetia.[23] In response, Georgia recalled its ambassador to Moscow "for consultations", stating that it was "outraged by Russia's aggressive policies."[24]

The incident coincided with the visit of the U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to Tbilisi where she pledged the U.S. support for Georgia's bid to join NATO. She said that granting NATO Membership Action Plan to Georgia would help resolve the Abkhaz and South Ossetian problems. The statement caused a negative outcry in Moscow: the Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov responded, during his meeting with the de facto Abkhaz president Sergey Bagapsh, that Georgia's NATO integration process "may undermine the conflict resolution" process.[25] On July 11, 2008, Georgian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigol Vashadze called for an urgent UN Security Council meeting on the conflict zones.[26]

A South Ossetian envoy on July 11, 2008 declared that South Ossetia was capable of repelling any attack by Georgia without help from Moscow and also said the mainly Russian peacekeeping contingent in the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zone should be increased.[27] The Russian Ministry of Defense said in a statement the same day that measures have been taken "to increase combat readiness" of the Russian peacekeeping forces stationed in Abkhazia. It also said that security had been tightened at the Russian peacekeepers' base camps, observation posts and checkpoints, and "additional training" of the peacekeeping personnel had been conducted "to explain regulations of use of firearm while on duty."[28] Nika Rurua, Deputy Head of the Parliament's Security and Defense Committee, warned that Georgia would shoot down Russia's military aircraft in case they appear in its airspace again and an initiative was considered to this effect, but decided instead to appeal to the world community on the matter. Media reports published information about Russia's alleged plans to seize the Kodori Gorge specifying that the details of the operation were worked out by Russian high-ranking military officials, with Abkhazia's President Sergey Bagapsh. Russia reportedly considered responding[update needed] by revealing the details of a planned military invasion of South Ossetia by Georgia to release their detained officers.[29]

On July 14, 2008 Georgia's deputy defense minister Batu Kutelia said Georgia plans to expand its military more than 15 percent to 37,000 soldiers following events in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The additional manpower would be used to defend Georgia's airspace and the Black Sea coast.[30] On July 15, 2008 the U.S. and Russia both began exercises in the Caucasus though Russia denies the timing was intentional.[31] The Russian exercises included training to support peacekeepers in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Georgia claimed the exercises were a manifestation of Russian aggression against it.[32]

The US exercises were part of "Exercise Immediate Response 2008"and included forces from the United States, Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, and Armenia.[33] 1,000 US troops were involved, in addition to the 127 trainers already in Georgia. The exercise concluded August 7. [34] On August 6 the Georgian Defense Ministry announced a two week exercise, "Georgian Express 2008", would take place with 180 British military personnel, starting in September.[35]

Also on July 15, Abkhazia and South Ossetia were said to be planning to join the Union of Russia and Belarus, a spokesman for the Union said both regions have talked about joining the Union, but that they would need to be recognized as independent and become observers before they could join the Union as members.[36][37]

According to media reports, on July 19, 2008 a Georgian police post was attacked by Abkhaz militias using grenades, one of the militiamen died from a grenade exploding accidentally. Abkhaz officials condemned the reports as false.[38] Georgian media also reported on July 19 that a battalion of Russian troops had moved into the lower Kodori Gorge.[39] Georgia's Defense Ministry claimed Russian troops encroached on Mamison and Roksky passes in Abkhazia and South Ossetia respectively and are in combat alert. Abkhazia's Foreign Minister said no new troops were brought in over the quota.[40]

A U.N. report issued July 23, 2008 on the period between April and July 2008 noted discrepancies with the Georgian attack of a shooting in Khurcha on the day of Georgian elections. In particular the report noted the way the incident was filmed suggested the attack was anticipated. The report said reconnaissance flights by Georgia were a violation of the ceasefire, but said the shooting down of those fights also constituted a breach of the ceasefire. Concerning a military buildup by Georgia the UN report said it found no evidence of a buildup but noted observers were denied access to certain areas of Abkhazia controlled by Georgia including the Kvabchara Valley.[41]

On July 28, 2008 a spokesman for the Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia said South Ossetian forces had blocked peacekeepers and OSCE observers from the village of Cholibauri which is close to where Georgia says South Ossetia is building fortifications.[42] On July 29, 2008 South Ossetia said two South Ossetian villages had been fired on by Georgian forces in response to South Ossetia reinforcing its positions on the perimeter of the conflict zone.[43] Georgia said the same day that Georgian posts on the Sarabuki heights were attacked by South Ossetian forces with no injuries reported.[42]

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:52 AM

On August 1 Joint Peacekeeping Forces (JPKF) observers from all three sides and OSCE representatives were investigating a bomb attack which had occurred around 8:05am local time and injured two police officers, reported JPKF commander on media issues Captain Vladimir Ivanov. [44] However, the Georgian Ministry of Internal Affairs declared that in the attack 5 police officers had been injured by two remote control explosive devices. [45] Six Ossetians were reportedly killed and 21 injured as a result of one of an intensive shoot-out in the South Ossetian conflict zone, late on August 1 and overnight on August 2. Sporadic fighting continued every day and on August 6, there were further shootouts and Georgia acknowledged it had lost an Armoured personnel carrier (APC) during the clashes.[46] After a night of gunfire in which four people died, shelling resumed at daybreak on August 7. Residents were on the move, evacuating vulnerable areas of the South Ossetian capital.[47] Georgia was reportedly moving tanks, artillery and troops to the border with South Ossetia.[48]

However, at the end of the day, Mikhail Saakashvili ordered an unilateral cease-fire. "A sniper war is ongoing against residents of the villages [in the South Ossetian conflict zone] and as I speak now intensive fire is ongoing from artillery, from tanks, from self-propelled artillery systems – which have been brought in the conflict zone illegally – and from other types of weaponry, including from mortars and grenade launchers," Saakashvili said in a live televised address made at 7:10pm local time on August 7.[49]

Georgia suspended this unilateral ceasefire claiming that sniper attacks and other military actions were ongoing against Georgian villages on both sides of the official frontier. Saakashvili claims that in the night from 7th to 8th of August 150 Russian tanks crossed border into Georgia through the Roki-Tunnel. [50] On 8th of August, the starting day of Beijing Olympics, Georgia launched a military offensive to "restore constitutional order in the whole region."[51] Georgia started a full-scale attack on the breakaway republic overnight, using tanks, aircraft, heavy artillery and infantry.[52]" Media sources reported that Georgian MRLS started shelling separatist capital, Tskhinvali. South Ossetian authorities and others accused Georgia of committing "planned massacre of Ossetian civilian population: children, elderly and young women".[53][54] The Tshinvali's central hospital, university[55] and some of its schools were also hit.[citation needed]

Georgian military forces attacked suddenly[56] with the strong support of heavy artillery (BM-21 122mm and 152mm),[57] tanks,[58] and aircraft.[citation needed] Within the first two hours the main Ossetian defence positions were completely destroyed.[citation needed] Most of Tshinval's communications and facilities were also heavily damaged.[59] The whole city, including the town's central hospital, university and some of its schools were also destroyed.[citation needed] After the third artillery wave, two Georgian heavy tanks regiments began their attack in converging directions around Tskhinvali, and almost completely encircled it. Russian peacekeepers withstood the Georgian thrust and saved several bunkers.[citation needed] The Russian government claimed that Georgian soldiers had killed peacemakers and thousands of civilians (90 % of them are russian citizens) during the heavy artillery attack on the Tshinval.[citation needed]

Russia claimed this attack killed 15 and injured 150 of peacekeepers stationed in the region since 1992 under CIS mandate.[citation needed] In response, Russia ordered 150 tanks, APCs, self proprlled howitsers and MLRSs of its 58th Army into Ossetia, reclaimed Tskhinvali and the rest of South Oseetia.

According to international media sources and Human Rights Watch, Russia used cluster bombs in civilian areas, resulting in the death of civilians. [60]. "Cluster bombs are indiscriminate killers that most nations have agreed to outlaw. Russia's use of this weapon is not only deadly to civilians, but also an insult to international efforts to avoid a global humanitarian disaster of the kind caused by landmines. " -Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch [61]

According to Russian authorities in North Ossetia, part of Russian Federation, 34'000 refugees arrived from South Ossetia from 2 for 9 august.[62]


[edit] After the 2008 war
On August 26, 2008, Russia officially recognized both South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states.[63]

On October 3rd (Tskhinvali time) a car filled with explosives blew up near Russian headquarters in Tskhinvali, capital city of Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia. Seven Russian peacekeepers were killed and seven others wounded. [64] The Russians accused the Georgians of a "Terrorist Attack", claiming that just before the blast, the Russians arrested four Georgians and seized light firearms and two grenades. "The cars and the detained people were escorted to Tskhinvali. During the search of one of the cars, an explosive device equivalent to some 20kg of TNT went off," a military spokesman told Interfax. The explosion caused devastation, shattering windows 350ft away and sending black smoke into the sky.[65] The Russian Defense Ministry also views the incident "as a deliberately planned terrorist act aimed at preventing the sides from carrying out the Medvedev-Sarkozy plan," the ministry said in a statement.[66] The South Ossetian leader accused Georgia of State Terrorism saying "The latest terrorist attacks in South Ossetia prove that Georgia has not renounced its policy of state terrorism. We have no doubt that these terrorist acts are the work of Georgia special forces.[67] The Georgian government blamed Russia for the incident. "If provocations and tensions are in the interest of anyone, it's the Russians," Shota Utiashvili, the Interior Ministry spokesman, told the Reuters news agency, "They are doing everything not to pull troops out within the set term".[68] The French Presidency of the European Union condemned the attack.[69]

On October 4th South Ossetia's Interior Ministry said a total of 11 people had been killed, including civilians. Colonel Ivan Petrik, the Russian "peacekeepers' " chief of staff, had been killed in his office. Russia's RIA news agency quoted the commander of Russia's forces in Georgia, Major-General Marat Kulakhmetov, as saying they had stopped two cars on Friday in the village of Ditsa, in a Russian-controlled buffer zone around South Ossetia, and escorted them to Tskhinvali. As they were being searched, a bomb went off. Georgia denied the charges, saying it would have had [? hard] to find Ossetians to take the car into the area under Russian control. "I don't understand the logic. How could the Georgian secret service plan that the Ossetians would steal the car and that the Russians would take it to their base. Are we geniuses or what?" Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said. "The Georgians did not take any car to Ossetian territory or drive it to the Russian base."[70

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:55 AM

Ron,

I am presenting the information you requested- YOU read it, then tell me how you make a simple decision as to who is at fault. Are you claiming that Georgia does not have the right to defend it's own citizens? Or that whoever the US supports must be wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:56 AM

"South Ossetian Supreme Soviet approved a decision to unite South Ossetia with the North Ossetian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic"


What right did they have to do this?

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:59 AM

They had the universal right to self determination. That's what right they had to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 08:06 AM

So the Israeli settlers can vote themselves independent( and then join with Israel), even if the Palestinian population is greater???




In S. Ossetia ( before the ethnic clensing ) the MAJORITY of the population was Georgian. ( figures given previously)

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:52 PM

BB--

Good dodge of the question. But not good enough.

You cited the article which dealt with the 1990-91 conflict.

It's obvious to anybody who reads that the Georgian refusal to let South Ossetia go with North Ossetia when the USSR broke up is the main origin of the current friction.

If you don't believe this, exactly why not?

The answer to your question is also painfully obvious--South Ossetians have far more in common with North Ossetians than with Georgians.

Do you deny this? If so, evidence please.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:19 AM

Ron,

So, any group that has a majority in a specific area should be able to become independent? I guess the Civil War in the US was a waste of time- the Confederacy should have been able to leave if they wanted.



And the other area "freed" by the Russians?

Abkhazia:

1926 Census 186,004(Total) 67,494(Georgians) 55,918(Abkhazians) 12,553
(Russians) 25,677(Armenians) 14,045(Greeks)

1939 Census 311,885(Total) 91,967(Georgians) 56,197(Abkhazians) 60,201(Russians) 49,705(Armenians) 34,621(Greeks)

1959 Census 404,738(Total) 158,221(Georgians) 61,193(Abkhazians) 86,715(Russians) 64,425(Armenians) 9,101(Greeks)

1970 Census 486,959(Total) 199,596(Georgians) 77,276(Abkhazians) 92,889(Russians) 74,850(Armenians) 13,114(Greeks)

1979 Census 486,082(Total) 213,322(Georgians) 83,087(Abkhazians) 79,730(Russians) 73,350(Armenians) 13,642(Greeks)

1989 Census 525,061(Total) 239,872(Georgians) 93,267(Abkhazians) 74,913(Russians) 76,541(Armenians) 14,664(Greeks)

2003 Census 215,972(Total) 45,953(Georgians) 94,606(Abkhazians) 23,420(Russians) 44,870(Armenians) 1,486(Greeks)

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 08:49 PM

Supposedly the US states had an agreement not to break up the Union. South Ossetia had no such understanding with Georgia. And the Confederate states had far more in common with the Northern states than South Ossetia has with Georgia. To start with, North and South in the US Civil War at least spoke the same language. Not so in the other case.

By the way, I believe a parallel can be drawn elsewhere: specifically between "Kurdistan" and Iraq as between South Ossetia and Georgia. The only reason "Kurdistan" does not declare independence is the Kurds know the neighbors would never accept it, for fear of the reaction of their own Kurds--but they have no intention of being part of "Iraq". What are your views on this?

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 07:22 AM

Actually, I think we ( the US) OWE the Kurds for not supporting them in the 90's, and should make them an independent country.


But my thinking so does not make it correct by international law.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 11:07 PM

As I noted, nobody can give the Kurds independence, since their neighbors won't permit it, for the reason I cited. I think the Kurds are smart enough to realize this, and won't push for it--as long as they can stay de facto independent--which they are now.
But the Iraq "national" government had best realize the Kurds feel very strongly about this--and also about Kirkuk-- that Kirkuk belongs to them.   The longer the "national" government puts off the decision on Kirkuk, the less likely the Kurds will want anything to do with "Iraq"--even sharing oil revenues from "Kurdistan".

In the long run the main question is just how weak the"central government" will be--since south Iraq wants a similar arrangement to that of "Kurdistan".

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:33 PM

I think what's escaping the current threadplay is that when you're an overwhelming State like Russia and the perceived nemesis (Georgia) is on your back forty you can play all sorts of games such as bait-the-sucker with any number of provocateurs.

Post Russian occupation of much more than Ossetia, Georgia experienced major loss of infrastructure far and beyond what was going on at the borders with the disputed territories. Hard to see that happening without Russian approval or outright action.

This doesn't get Georgia out of the doghouse for being pretty stupid at getting into the current mess.

Subject: RE: BS: GeorgiaGate...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 08:26 PM

Salient point is the last one.