BS: War in Georgia (2008)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:13 PM

LH,

a. IF the US is wrong for its actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, then Russia is wrong re Georgia.

b. If Russia is right re Georgia, then the US is right re Iraq et al.



OK? Pick one.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:13 PM

"Georgia rattled Russia's cage and that probably was a stupid thing to do".

STUPID! Nice little word,Sandy. Children might be stupid. Georgias president acted as a criminal and-make no mistake-triggered all of this trouble. That's a fact.

I might be wrong, but I think you are of american origin. And these people should be quite quiet because of Iran. The rest of the world don't need your knowledge about Russia. Clean at your own door.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

For sure, Russia is really run by Putin. ;-) No doubt about it. The ironical thing, though, is that a large majority of the Russian population likes it that way, so even if they had a totally real democracy right now, they would still elect Putin if he ran for office again. So how about that? Watcha gonna do?

Putin is a highly effective leader, he's no fool, and he's the FIRST actually effective leader Russia has had since the breakup of the Soviet Union. Accordingly he's very popular.

So he was KGB? So what? People who have been CIA amount to the same thing in my opinion, but having been in the CIA does not preclude American politicians from being respected and from serving in other areas of government, does it? Quite the contrary. Your secret service people are regarded as heros and protectors of the country. How ironical! They've caused the deaths of untold numbers of people all over the world with their undercover activities, their coups, and their assassinations of foreign leaders.

I'm not impressed one bit by this hypocritical double standard in assessing the character of Russian politicians and secret agents versus American politicians and secret agents. Both of those great powers are totally self-interested, they are both utterly ruthless, they are both military aggressors, they are both imperialists, and they both invade and subjugate small nations whenever they have a whim and an excuse to do so.

There is little to choose between them and no reason for moral grandstanding on the part of either one of them.

The Georgians have no reason for moral grandstanding either, because their government brought this mess down on itself through its own irresponsible behaviour.

You say they were sucked in? Maybe so...but no more than Saddam Hussein was sucked in when he attacked Kuwait back in '91. (the American ambassador to Iraq assured him before the invasion of Kuwait that the USA had no interest or reason to take sides in any Arab vs Arab conflicts...thus sucking him in...and I have a strong suspicion that that was a deliberate ploy by the USA, and a clever one too).

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM

NATO has 10 members who were once oppressed regions under Russian control:

Czech Republic
Hungary
Poland

(29 March 2004):
Bulgaria:
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia

Note: 7 have been brought in since George W. Bush became president. He strongly supports Georgia's entry as well. Putin doesn't like NATO, Bush, the president of Georgia or anyone else who stands up to the Russian bear.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

Make no mistake Russia is run by Putin (under a changed office but still boss #1)! He is a cold KGB prick and he rules with an iron fist. He was "democratically elected" as well, as was Hitler at one time,so democracy has little to do with the situation. Georgia rattled Russia's cage and that probably was a stupid thing to do. Now Putin uses that as an excuse to bare his teeth and bite. He is setting an example for all his neighbours to heed. Georgia was sucked in and I hope that the bloodshed will soon end!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

"Nations on every continent should make clear that invasion and conquest are not acceptable modes of behavior and that Russia will face long-term and damaging consequences if it persists in occupying parts of Georgia and even more damaging consequences if it extends its military campaign."

Yes they should. Now apply that to the USA's invasions of Afghanistan and most particularly Iraq.

My, how self-righteous yesterday's great power aggressor in Washington is waxing over today's great power aggressor in Moscow! ;-) How droll all this rhetoric is.

And here's another piece of very droll rhetoric, intended to create largely false impressions in the mind of the American reader:

"Russia's aggression is really about the subordination of Georgia, a democratic, market-oriented U.S. ally"

The first part is right, Russia is trying to subordinate Georgia...just like the USA has tried to subordinate Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc...

However, the second part is nuanced bullshit intended to deceive, and to invoke old images of Soviet Russia and the Cold War. The use of the words "democratic" and "market-oriented" is disingenuous and laughable. Russia has itself been market-oriented ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, for heaven's sake! Russia has also been hold western-style multi-party elections ever since the fall of the Soviet Union....so why this disingenuous attempt to pretend that Georgia is any more market-oriented or democratic than Russia?

Well, to sway the mind of American readers, that's why.

I suspect that both the Russian and Georgian governments are far less inclined toward true democracy than their outer show of national elections would indicate, but to cast Georgia as supposedly "democratic" (therefore "good") and Russia as supposedly not (therefore "evil") is just rhetoric intended to deceive domestic American consumption...and ditto for the nonsense about "market-oriented" distinctions.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 10:34 AM

I'm with you on that, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 10:02 AM

Seems in agreement- but still, who is at fault? NEITHER account makes that exactly clear.




...........
Beginning late on 1 August, intense fighting began between Georgian troops and paramilitary soldiers of South Ossetia, causing the deaths of six people and injuring twenty-one others. Each side accused the other of commencing the fighting.[27] On 3 August, the Russian government allowed South Ossetians to begin evacuation into Russia, which resulted in twenty bus-loads of refugees leaving the region on the first day.[48]

On 4 August, five battalions of the Russian 58th Army were moved to the vicinity of Roki Tunnel that links South Ossetia with North Ossetia.[49]

Sporadic fighting continued throughout the next several days. On 6 August, Georgia said it had lost an APC and that three Georgian soldiers had been wounded.[50] Four people were killed that night and Georgia resumed shelling at daybreak. Residents once again began evacuating areas of South Ossetia and Georgia moved tanks, artillery, and troops to the border.[51] The Georgian Interior Ministry reported that as many as ten Georgian soldiers had died in the clashes throughout 7 August.[52][53]

Saakashvili who had earlier alleged that a sniper warfare was taking taking place [54] later ordered a unilateral ceasefire. Saakashvili called for talks "in any format", reaffirmed the long-standing offer of full autonomy for South Ossetia, proposed that Russia should guarantee that solution, offered a general amnesty, and pleaded for international intercession to stop the hostilities.[26] Georgia reiterated that it was prepared to engage in direct talks with the de facto government of South Ossetia without any preconditions.

During the night and early morning, Georgian artillery was reported to have shelled the South Ossetian villages of Avnevi, Eredvi, Nuli and others.[56] Georgian news reported that Georgian-populated villages of South-Ossetia were first hit, however this contradicts the reports of Information Telegraph Agency of Russia. These reports also stated that the police station in Kurta, seat of the Sanakoyev administration, was hit by artillery fire. Georgia reported that civilians had begun fleeing these villages.[26] Georgian shelling continued, varying in intensity through the night.

Georgia began a military offensive into South Ossetia commanded by Mamuka Kurashvili, which they said was a response the above-mentioned alleged attacks against Georgian villages. However, South Ossetia denied attacking the villages. Kurashvili stated that the purpose of the operation was to restore constitutional order in the region.[57] This caused an increased number of refugees to cross into Russia.[57][58] Interfax quoted South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity as saying his forces were confronting Georgians in the outskirts of Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia; he noted that fierce fighting was under way.[citation needed]

At 00:53 on 8 August (local time, 20:53 7 August UTC), Georgian forces began shelling the city, which allegedly included the route along which refugees were being moved.[59] As the day progressed, Russian media reported that at least fifteen civilians had been killed in Tskhinvali.[52]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:54 AM

CHRONOLOGY-Russia orders end to fighting in Georgia

Aug 12 (Reuters) - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev ordered a halt to military operations in Georgia on Tuesday after five days of fighting.

Georgia entered a conflict with Russia last week after launching an offensive to retake the pro-Russian region of South Ossetia, which broke away from Georgian rule. The issue of South Ossetia's independence has bedevilled Georgia's relations with Russia. Here is a chronology of recent events:

April 3, 2008 - NATO member states at a summit in Bucharest agree that Georgia and Ukraine can one day join the alliance. They stop short of giving them a firm timetable for accession.

April 16 - Russian President Vladimir Putin orders officials to establish semi-official ties with separatist administrations in Georgia's Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Georgia says the order is a violation of international law.

April 20 - Georgia says a Russian Mig-29 fighter jet shot down a Georgian drone flying over Abkhazia. Russia denies involvement. A United Nations report later backs the Georgian version of events.

April 29 - Russia sends extra troops to Abkhazia to counter what it says are Georgian plans for an attack. The next day NATO accuses Moscow of stoking tensions with Georgia.

May 4 - Separatists in Abkhazia say they shot down two Georgian spy drones over the territory they control. Georgia denies any such flights.

May 6 - Georgia says Russia's deployment of extra troops in Abkhazia has brought the prospect of war "very close".

May 30 - Georgia says it stopped flights by unpiloted spy planes over Abkhazia but reserves the right to resume them.

May 31 - Putin, now prime minister, says he backs a Georgian proposal for Abkhazia's autonomy but not full independence.

July 5 - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev urges Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili to refrain from "stoking tensions" in Georgia's breakaway regions.

July 8 - Russian fighter jets fly into Georgian airspace over South Ossetia. Moscow says the mission was intended to "cool hot heads in Tbilisi". Two days later Georgia recalls its ambassador from Moscow in protest.

Aug. 4 - Russia accuses Georgia of using excessive force in South Ossetia after the Russian-backed rebels said Georgian artillery had killed at least six people.

Aug. 7 - Georgian troops attack South Ossetian capital after a truce with rebels breaks down, Russia says Tbilisi cannot be trusted and NATO should reconsider its plans to admit Georgia.

Aug. 8 - Russia sends forces into Georgia to repel the Georgian assault. Medvedev vows to defend Russian "compatriots".

-- Saakashvili says the two countries are at war.

Aug. 11 - Russia issues an ultimatum to Georgian forces near Abkhazia to disarm or be attacked. Georgia rejects the demand. Saakashvili says Russia wants to replace his government and control energy routes through the Caucasus. Russia rejects a Georgian ceasefire proposal.

Aug. 12 - Medvedev issues orders to stop fighting in the five-day war in Georgia. Medvedev is quoted as saying that the aggressor has been punished and sustained very serious losses. Russia says its troops will remain in current positions in Georgia. Georgia says it needs more evidence of a Russian halt to operations and will remain prepared for everything.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:53 AM

Re his degrees ( subjects and places)

And Bush did not get 96% of the vote running ON attacking Iraq!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:51 AM

Bush was elected by the American people and he invaded Iraq. The fact that someone is elected doesn't mean they can't also be evil.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:50 AM

Possibly the field commanders didn't receive the directive to cease operations?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:49 AM

"A graduate of Columbia and George Washington universities in law and human rights, Saakashvili won election in January 2004 with 96% of the vote. He vowed to fight corruption at home and to re-integrate the pro-Russian regions of Adzharia, Abkhazia and South Ossetia into Georgia."


No wonder he is so evil!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:47 AM

Georgia: Attacks continuing despite Russia halt claim

Story Highlights
NEW: Georgia says attacks have continued despite Russian halt claim

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev calls halt to fighting, report says

Russian troops had advanced further into Georgia from two breakaway regions

Oil giant BP shuts down two pipelines in the region as a precaution

   
MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Tuesday that he had ordered an end to military operations against Georgia, but Tbilisi reported more attacks after the statement was made.

Medvedev's announcement came minutes before French President Nicolas Sarkozy was to land in Moscow to negotiate terms for a possible cease-fire.

"I have reached a decision to halt the operation to force the Georgian authorities to peace," Medvedev said. "The aggressor has been punished and has incurred very significant losses. Its armed forces are disorganized."

"The statement on the halt of the military action by Russia is the news we had expected. It's good news," Sarkozy said later, according to an Interfax report.

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin was also involved the talks.

Medvedev's decision would end five days of fighting that began in Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia. Watch Georgia's reaction to halt in fighting »

The Georgian government claimed that despite Medvedev's announcement, Russian warplanes struck two villages and military forces bombed an ambulance outside the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

In the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, thousands of citizens engaged in a pro-Georgian rally in front of the parliament building. Watch Georgians rally in Tbilisi »

Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, who addressed the rally, has accused Russia of provoking the war to justify a full-scale invasion of the former Soviet state. The Russians say Saakashvili attacked first in an attempt to gain control of South Ossetia.

Earlier Tuesday, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said it wanted a demilitarized zone to be created in Georgian territory before a cease-fire could take effect. Watch Lavrov speak about Georgia »

The zone had to be big enough to prevent Georgia's military from again attacking the breakaway province, Lavrov said.

Russian troops who were already in the breakaway province on peacekeeping duty should remain, Lavrov explained, but Georgian troops who were part of that force should not return.

He said it would be best if Saakashvili stepped down as Georgia's leader -- something the president has vowed not to do -- but that Russia was not demanding his resignation.

"We have no plans to throw down any leadership," Lavrov said. "It is not part of our culture. It is not what we do."

However, Lavrov said Moscow did not trust the country's leadership.

He said Saakashvili's "barbaric and brutal action" had undermined trust in Georgia.

Meanwhile, the Russian military advanced further into Georgia overnight, heading toward cities outside South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

From the flashpoint South Ossetia, the Russian military moved south toward the central Georgia city of Gori, Georgia said. Russia said its troops were on the outskirts of the city.
Russian troops were also in Senaki, in western Georgia, having advanced from the breakaway area of Abkhazia, Russian and Georgian officials said.

Georgia's security chief Alexander Lomaia said Tuesday that Russian troops had left Senaki but remained on the outskirts of Zugdidi and around Gori, The Associated Press reported.

Lomaia said Russian aircraft bombed Gori on Tuesday morning, targeting administrative buildings and a street market in the center, AP reported.

A Dutch cameraman was killed on Tuesday morning in an incident in Gori, the Dutch Foreign Ministry confirmed. He was identified as Stan Storimans, of RTL TV. The correspondent who accompanied him was also injured. There were no immediate details about the incident.

An Georgian Interior Ministry official added that Russian bombs hit one of the three pipelines carrying oil to the Black Sea port of Poti. There was no oil in the pipeline at the time, the ministry official said.

UK-based engery giant BP later said it had shut down two oil pipelines in the region as a "precautionary measure" linked to the security situation.

Georgia, a pro-Western ally of the U.S., is intent on asserting its authority over South Ossetia and Abkhazia, both of which have strong Russian-backed separatist movements.

The situation in South Ossetia escalated rapidly from Thursday night, when Georgia said it launched an operation into the region after artillery fire from separatists killed 10 people. It accused Russia of backing the separatists.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:35 AM

A different POV from the LATimes

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:31 AM

BP shutters Georgian pipeline
BP says it closed the 90,000 barrel a day Baku-Supsa pipeline that flows through the embattled nation.

LONDON (AP) -- BP PLC says it has shut down an oil pipeline that runs through Georgia as a precautionary measure, but says that it's unaware of any Russian bombings on pipelines in the region.

BP says it closed the 90,000-barrel-a-day Baku-Supsa pipeline earlier Tuesday.

Another pipeline operated by the London-based oil company in the former Soviet Republic, the larger Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, is already out of action after a fire last week on its Turkish stretch.

BP (BP) spokesman Robert Wine says that the Baku-Supsa line had been closed because it runs through central Georgia, where there is greater risk of conflict.

However, he adds that BP has had no reports of damage to pipelines in Georgia.

A third pipeline in Georgia that BP uses to export oil, but does not operate, remains open.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:23 AM

All that is so--from one side. What we see are articles that are following the Washington line. Are there any articles about Saakashvili's attacks on Russian peacekeepers and the populations of the two 'states' within Georgia?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:18 AM

It would have been an easy thing for the Russians to throw the Georgians out of the two disputed enclaves of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Russia is mighty; Georgia is not. Russia is huge; Georgia is tiny. The whole thing is a mismatch from the word go, and the Georgians -- when it is appropriate to do so -- have to be reminded that you do not poke a sleeping bear with a stick. Little nations ought to know their place.

But the bombing, including areas near the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, is not merely disproportionate, it is purposely, studiously, coldly atrocious. It is meant to punish -- not as a deterrent, the Israeli approach to such things, but as a way to show the world that the old Russia is reasserting itself. This is the Russia that looks at Georgia no differently from the way the czars did or, for that matter, the way of that most infamous of Georgians, Stalin himself. This is a Russia that wants a friendly leader on its border. It wants Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili to go.

The Russian invasion of Georgia is a breath of dank air from the rancid past. It reeks of spheres of interest and Metternichian understandings of how the world works and how power is exercised. It is also a refreshing reminder that sprinkling BMW dealerships hither and yon in this or that country does not, in the end, change the culture all that much. Russia, as my grandmother could have told George W. Bush, always fights dirty.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/11/AR2008081102014.html

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:17 AM

Russia supports two provinces determined to secede from Georgia. Russia, with aspiring nations within its borders, generally opposes secessionists, as it did when America, which sometimes opposes secession (e.g., 1861-65), improvidently supported Kosovo's secession from Russia's ally Serbia. But Russia's aggression is really about the subordination of Georgia, a democratic, market-oriented U.S. ally. This is the recrudescence of Russia's dominance in what it calls the "near abroad." Ukraine, another nation guilty of being provocatively democratic near Russia, should tremble because there is not much America can do. It is a bystander at the bullying of an ally that might be about to undergo regime change.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/11/AR2008081102156.html

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:05 AM

Washington Post:

The Invasion Continues

The West confronts an unfamiliar sight: a nation bent on conquest.
Tuesday, August 12, 2008; Page A12

IN MOSCOW yesterday, President Dmitry Medvedev gave every indication that Russia was winding up its military operation in Georgia. Meanwhile, his forces continued to advance into that sovereign nation and bomb widely dispersed strategic targets there. The contradiction was consistent with the Russian regime's behavior throughout this crisis: Its words have borne no connection to its actions; its actions are untethered to international norms.

We're pleased to publish on the opposite page today an analysis by former Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev. He sees the origins of this crisis very differently from how we do, but he agrees that "hostilities must cease as soon as possible." What he doesn't spell out is that such an outcome rests entirely in the hands of Mr. Medvedev -- or of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, depending on who is really in charge. Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili has accepted a French proffer of an immediate cease-fire. Russia, by contrast, seems determined to depose Georgia's government because it has not been willing to act as vassal and submit to Russia's resurgent imperial ambitions. "Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people," President Bush said yesterday. "Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century."

Well said, but what to do about it? Of course we support the intensified diplomacy that is taking place, including France's efforts to negotiate a truce. Nations on every continent should make clear that invasion and conquest are not acceptable modes of behavior and that Russia will face long-term and damaging consequences if it persists in occupying parts of Georgia and even more damaging consequences if it extends its military campaign. NATO's plans for the joint defense of members such as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland need to be urgently upgraded; the decision to hold the Winter Olympics in a Russian city near the Georgian border should be reexamined; Europe's insouciance about its dependence on Russian oil and gas should be a thing of the past.


But the most urgent need is to see clearly what is taking place. As the crisis deepened, one could hear in Washington the usual attempts to blame the victim, as if Georgia somehow deserved this fate because its elected government had opted for friendly relations with the West. There were also the predictable efforts to score domestic political points.

Fortunately, both candidates for president rose above such temptations, issuing statements that showed they understand the moral calculus and the stakes -- and that the U.S. election will not yield a president any more tolerant of the Kremlin's bullying. Yesterday morning, Sen. John McCain (R) condemned the attacks, outlined a series of policy responses and said, "We must remind Russia's leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world." Later in the day, Sen. Barack Obama (D) said, "There is no possible justification for these attacks" and added: "I have consistently called for deepening relations between Georgia and transatlantic institutions, including a Membership Action Plan for NATO, and we must continue to press for that deeper relationship."

That's the right call; but a precondition of a deepening relationship is the survival of an independent Georgia. As we write, Russia has put that survival shockingly in doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: bankley
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:25 AM

...and Mr Cheney,,,

'if you go out in the woods today,
you're sure of a big surprise'

don't go hunting Russian bear with birdshot in your gun...

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:11 AM

I believe the Russians in this instance. The Georgian leader is somewhat a tyrant.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:05 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)

So, who are we supposed to believe, Georgia or the South Ossetians? I think that BOTH have a reason to lie.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:21 AM

"Permanent"

It looks like Peace is right. Russia has decided to stop miltary operations against Georgia,

And it's clear that Bush is the anti-TR.   Speak loudly and carry a feather. Bush had absolutely no leverage to force Russia to do anything--thanks in large part to stupid overextension of US forces by his senseless invasion of Iraq--rather than trying to finish the job he started in Afghanistan.

That's assuming that Bush would have had the power to do anything in the Georgia-South Ossetia affair--in a corner of the world of overwhelming vital interest to Russia-- even without the Iraq war.

But it would still be good to hear exactly why South Ossetia would not choose a situation close to that of North Ossetia if given the opportunity. And it may still happen.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:19 AM

Would be nice if Saakashvili could be taken for a walk in the woods before the Russian troops leave.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:14 AM

Looks like a cease fire.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:50 AM

Teribus--

I deduce from your tone that you don't think that self-determination for the South Ossetians would result in their choosing a similar status to that of North Ossetia.

From Google:   "Before the Georgian-Ossetian conflict, roughly 2/3 of the population of South Ossetia was Ossetian.   25%-30% was Georgian." according to the Permament Committee on Geographical Names for British Official Use".   This is before the current hostilities--that is, before any ethnic cleansing as a result of the 2008 crisis.

"By August 2008, more than 70% of the South Ossetian citizens had Russian citizenship.`'--again, Google.

Obviously the South Ossetians want as much autonomy as they can get. They have seen how much Georgia is willing to give them.

It's time for you to provide some actual evidence and logic that the South Ossetians would not now voluntarily choose a similar status to that of North Ossetia, which is officially a part of Russia, rather than the status they now have within Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:30 AM

Next step- hope there's not a cold winter, because the Russians will almost certainly "accidentally" turn off the gas pipeline to Ukraine and probably Europe.

As I said before, it serves us right for getting dependent on them. We've already had 35% increases in gas prices announced in Britain- it could reach 100% or more as this develops. Thank you to the far- sighted British politicians who used our North Sea oil and gas reserves to crush the unions and fuel a feelgood economic boom.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:41 PM

"so he gets what he asked for"

The Georgian people get it, not him. Unfortunately, these bastards that start wars send other people's kids to get killed. They seldom do themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: skarpi
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:52 PM

well saakasvílí started this war , and attacked the russian
peace soldiers , so he gets what he asked for , and who said any way
that Russia cant be like the Americans ??


well I hope it will end soon

ATB Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:41 PM

Well, I just watched McCain mispronounced Saakshvili's name three times. So, it's a given. He'll be elected. (Hey, it worked for Bush!)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:06 PM

Yeah. But it's also in Asia, too.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:01 PM

Good. Atlanta will breathe easier tonight. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:36 PM

Well, that's a start!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

Just heard Bush on TV. He's aware that Georgia is in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

Yeah Heric, Peter, I think it is Bush's Hubris coming home to roost.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:57 PM

(agree)   (Cheney/Bush)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:46 PM

Actually, I think it is quite easily possible to put the blame squarely on George Bush. He thought he could play the big man, and pump up Georgia against Russia, and now that the bill has come due, he doesn't have the ability to do anything about it. Another diplomatic triumph for the Bush administration.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:45 PM

And by the way, everyone in power in the US (including the media) is calling for Russia to leave South Ossetia. The reason it looks like they are saying Russia should only get out of Georgia (and not South Ossetia) is because when they say "Georgia", they are also talking about South Ossetia. They aren't recognizing South Ossetia as a separate entity.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:39 PM

In all of the accounts I've read, it was Georgia that started the bombing, and not South Ossetian separatists.

Why would the South Ossetians want to bomb Georgia? They would have nothing to gain by doing so, and everything to lose. They won the civil war with Georgia in 1992, and have been living independently from Georgia ever since. Georgia, on the other hand, which wants to reabsorb South Ossetia (against the will of the South Ossetians), is the only party with a reason for wanting to bomb anyone. The people who are trying to make it look like Russia and South Ossetia started this are lying.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:22 PM

Bush couldn't care less, Jack... You see the piture in this morning's paper... He has reverted back to his ol' collage drunk frat boy/cheerleader self... Hey, everyone knows he is in way over head with foriegn policy... Problem is that today he cares alot more about whether or not the kid gets 8 gols medals in swimming than what Putin is orderin' up 3000 miles to the east...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:38 PM

I think that Putin is doing this now because he is running out of time to stick it to Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:36 PM

Last but not least, that's the new "hero" of George W.,his vice-president and all other people in hate with Russia???

Source: The Guardian,UK. www.guardian co.uk/world/2004/.....

".......In an interview with a Dutch magazine, Sandra Roelofs, the Dutch wife of the new Georgian president and hence the new first lady of Georgia, explained that her husband aspires to follow in the long tradition of strong Georgian leaders "like Stalin and Beria". Saakashvili started his march on Tbilisi last November with a rally in front of the statue of Stalin in his birthplace, Gori......"

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

Just found this which was written more than 3(!) years ago.

Source: www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1335682/posts

"The Saakashvili Stalin-like grip

Posted on Freitag, 04. Februar 2005 09:25:20 by Rezo

The Saakashvili Stalin-like grip

The Saakashvili Stalin-like grip of power is getting tighter with each passing day. The independent observers are comparing the personnel shifts in Georgia to sheer repressions and pointing to the already established dictatorship and obvious signs of authoritarian regime in Georgia. Not only the Saakashvili crusade on non-loyal to him Georgian businessmen testifies to the effect. This is also political and judicial harassment of the ex-officials not supportive of the nationalistic ambitions of their new strongman. This is also lack of any tolerance towards the journalists praising the 'revolution of roses' and the presidential command at every corner. Journalists are taking it for serious that freedom of speech is gravely endangered now. Mass media staffers are banned for instance from zones of disputed status in the framework of Georgia-Osetia and Georgia-Abkhazia stand-offs. Their reports on Georgian soldiers' slaughter towards people belonging to ethnical minorities and articles on human rights abuse in Adzharia are usually shelved. TV outlets' coverage of Armenians of Javakhetia being oppressed is absent at all. Generally, it makes the impression that Georgian revolution forced the country on the totalitarian way. The president of Georgia has got the false idea of his own importance. He is thinking of himself as of the almighty Stalin. The people of Georgia paved the way for Saakashvili to occupy the presidential chair a year or so ago. He doesn't care about that people any more. There is only power he is really after. Saakashvili is intoxicated with power. While most Georgians are hardly making both ends meet he is constantly threatening former autonomous regions with militant statements. But the budget of Georgia is too slender both for wars and social payments. Saakashvili is not on the message. He is crazy with the idea of completely subduing the autonomies. He is after power only and not after control. Power unlike control doesn't entail the responsibility. And again Saakashvili is talking of repressions. According to his voiced plans, when subdued Abkhazia will be left without 70% of Abkhazians destined for other places of living to make 'favorable living conditions' for the local Georgians. But Mishiko seems to be unaware of the fact he is only a puppet in the hands of some far more influential figures towering him. If the new Georgian leadership stays under Soros or Miles influence it'll be unable to secure the integrity of Georgia. The repressions in no way can't solve the problem."

As has been said: more than 3 years ago. Everbody could/should have known...

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:04 PM

This ain't nuthin' more than Putin-head doing in Georgia what Bush has tried to do in Iraq...

Colonialism/inperialism is alive and well these days...

I blame this 99% on Bush setting the example with his war of choice and not engaging Putin and Russia diplomatically on a consistent basis...

This war could have been avoided but now looks as if the next president is going to have another Cold War on his hands and I would hope that whomever it is isn't stupid enough to think it can be won with guns 'casue it can't...

Just more reason for US to get the heck outta Iraq and be a better role model...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:58 PM

Georgia claims Russians have cut country in half
Monday, August 11, 2008 6:34:56 PM

Georgia's president says Russia's troops have effectively cut the country in half by seizing a strategic city that straddles the country's main east-west highway.

President Mikhail Saakashvili made the statement in a national security council meeting on Monday, about an hour after officials claimed Russian troops had captured Gori, about 60 miles west of the capital Tbilisi.

The news agency Interfax cited a Russian Defense Ministry official as denying the reports of the seizure.

But a top official at the Georgian embassy in Moscow, Givi Shugarov, said Russian troops appeared to be moving toward Tbilisi and he alleged Russia's goal was "complete liquidation" of the Georgian government.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

"Kosovo was taken from historic owners the Serbs (Orthodox) by Muslims who had slowly but intentionally moved into Serbian territory as an expansion move, both by ethnic Albanians and Muslims. Pure expansionism."

This is pure, ignorant, prejudiced rubbish and shouldn't go unchallenged! There have been ethnic Albanians in Kosovo for centuries and they have just as much right to be there as the Serbs! If you don't believe me read Noel Malcolm's book, 'A Short History of Kosovo'.

Many ethnic groups in the Balkans have nationalist myths, all of which should be taken with a pinch of salt. A particular Serbian myth is that, at the end of the 17th century, after Kosovo Serbs were defeated by the Ottomans, they were forced to flee to Hungary and Albanians 'flooded' into Kosovo. Dr Malcolm shows this narrative to be largely mythical. And even if it were true, it is no excuse for the vicious practice of 'ethnic cleansing' 300 years later!!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

"Georgia started the fighting by bombing and shelling civilian population centers in South Ossetia in order to undo what had already been done more than a decade before. "


Glad to know that CarolC is a witness to all of this. The reports I had heard were that, IN RESPONSE to the South Ossetian shelling of Georgia, the Georgians responded by the shelling and occupation of South Ossetia, until driven out by the Russians, who are now well into Georgia ( as well as occupying the other enclave).


All tha must be wrong, since it is not what CarolC says is happening.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:45 PM

On a pedantic note- shvili. A lot of the blame for the current problems in South Ossetia can be laid at his door. Despite the friendship of the nations policy, he turned a blind eye to replacing the latin-based Ossetian alphabet with a Georgian one, to their efforts to replace Ossetian culture and identity with Georgian ones.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:44 PM

"they should get out of the rest of Georgia, if the issue truly is about Ossetia."

True enough.