Where do the EX-folk stars play?

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:55 AM

Wow Rick!!!!...What a wonderful piece of trivia!! Is there any truth to the rumor that they were the inspiration for Black Sabbath?

JP...Keep us posted on that Telecaster! How exciting to have such a priceless piece of music history!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:42 AM

Very few people are aware of the recordings of the "Singing Priest" Frere Sourise.

Born Jacques Galoshes in Saint Cuspidor, France, he left a promising career as a cheese fermenter, to join the obscure order of "Les Freres Grimm". These Monks became notorious for their nasty attitudes, perpetual frowns, inability to grow their own vegetables, and unwillingness to help Sidney Poitier whenever he passed through their village.

In 1967 Frere Sourise, was ordered by his order to go to town and trade three cows for a Television set, an early gerbil-powered VCR, and the complete works on film of Jerry lewis. Always the contrarian, he instead returned to the Monastary with a Fender Telecaster and Marshall stack. It wasn't a bad deal, though, as he only traded ONE of the cows for this outfit. Unfortunately both of the other cows died of exhaustion, pulling the amps up the hill.

In an effort to recoup their losses the Monastary formed France's first Black "Doo-wap" group. Their initial release "Upside yo head, with my big French Bread" might have even hit the charts had the whole band not dropped dead during their first live appearance. It seems the dye used to paint Frere Sourise and his band, black, was toxic.

Yup, just another footnote in the history of "one hit" artists. I'm told that Justa Picker is now bidding on that famous Telecaster on E-Bay.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:36 AM

Thanks for posting the Denny Zager link, JP! It is truly amazing!

Norman Greenbaum's other hit was with his jugband, Dr. West's Medicine Show and Junk Band, the immortal song "The Eggplant that Ate Chicago"--

Now, here is the ultimate folk music "one hit wonder" "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands" by a thirteen-year old boy, Laurie London--it topped the charts in 1958, and became, if not the most widely performed "folksong" over the following decades, at least one of two or three--and they are still singing it today in schools and at summer camps--We know what happened to the song, but who was Laurie and what happened to him?

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:02 AM

Zager and Evans..........geeziz........Thanks for the link JP. I don't think "Zager String Science" caught on any more than they did after 2525. 10G's ??? What an ultra-maroon!

Zager and Evans belong to a select group. Their FIRST release became a Number One Hit and nothing they ever did following it ever made the Top 100!! Joining them with the same distinction is a bit of a folkie, sorta'.......The Singing Nun. She ain't playin' nowhere:

CAREER IN THE '60s: Born Jeanine Deckers, in the '50s she took the name Sister Luc-Gabrielle and became a Dominican nun at the Fichermont Convent in Belgium. She entertained the locals with her charming guitar-backed songs, and had to pay a recording studio to cut a record for her so that she could hand out the songs as gifts. Soon, however, the Philips Record Company realized how novel a "singing nun" was, so they signed her to a contract, with her profits being donated to her order, and she reluctantly took the stage name Soeur Sourire. Uncomfortable as a live performer, she did knock out a rendition of the song that was pre-taped and broadcast on "The Ed Sullivan Show" in '64, though her Mother Superior initially wouldn't allow it to be shown. Intervention by the Archdiocese was required before this early Sister Soeur video was allowed to be seen on Sullivan's show. In '65 the Singing Nun abruptly quit performing and retired to the convent, there to concentrate on her studies. However, a year later she announced that she was leaving the convent to resume her singing career, still religious but now decidedly modern. She changed her name once more, this time to Luc Dominique and recorded I Am Not a Star in '67. By the end of the decade she was writing controversial songs in which she criticized the church.

CAREER OUTSIDE THE '60s: Gabrielle and Lucien Deckers, her parents, were married in 1932. Jeanne-Paul Marie Deckers had three siblings -- Hubert, Edgard, and Madeleine. During World War II the family lived in France while the father, Lucien, joined the resistance against the Nazi occupation. At war's end the family moved Belgium, near Brussels. Jeanne returned to Paris to go to art school in the early '50s. She was never close to her family and felt the convent was more of her home than the house where she'd lived. Her stardom came in the '60s; then after the '60s, away from the convent, her life took some bizarre twists. Her use of pills increased, and she teamed up with a woman, Annie Pescher, who may have been her lover. In Belgium they owned a school for autistic children, but in the '80s the Belgian government threatened to close the school because they claimed that the Singing Nun owed over $60,000 in back taxes. These were taxes for the money she earned during her heyday in the early and mid-'60s. She had donated all her proceeds to the convent, but she was still held accountable, some twenty years later, for the taxes. In 1985 she and Annie Pescher killed themselves in a suicide pact. Her life, and the journals she kept, have inspired several books: Soeur Sourire: A Faceless Voice, Passions and Death of the Fichermont Singing Nun by Henry Evearet in '88, and Soeur Sourire by Florence Delaporte in '96.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Chris Amos
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 01:45 AM

Hi,

On the right-hand side of the pond things seem to work the other way round. In the Punk era a duo by the name of John Ottway and Wild Willie Barrett had a hugeish hit with a song Really Free, after which, for reasons, which are still talked of today, they, sank from general. Both can now be found playing in folk clubs. Wild Willy is an extremely fine guitarist and John Ottway dives from tables. Both are well worth going to see if you get the chance.

Regards

C

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Suffet
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 01:22 AM

There is another approach. This one is not from a folkie, but from a disco star. Remember a group called Chic? They had a #1 hit song, Le Freak, about 25 years ago. One of the women in Chic, Alfa Anderson, later became a high school teacher in New York City -- vocal music and English -- and now she's a high school principal. I have seen the wonderful productions her music students have put on, very often singing songs with themes of peace, human rights, and social justice. And I also recall the "Working with Young People" workshop Alfa co-led at the Peoples' Music Network Winter Gathering when it was held in New York two years ago.

This goes to show there is hope for everyone.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 01:00 AM

Here is the said link. I think it speaks (volumes) for itself.

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 12:50 AM

Ya know, I doubt it made the top 100, but I actually heard pete Seeger and fred hellerman singing "Precious friend" (Pete wrote it) several times on CHUM am. here in Toronto.

...and don't forget (or should that be 'fergit') Billy Edd's "Little Brown Shack". Jest a country boy and his D-28.

You SHOULD check out Justa's link about Zager....it's quite funny.

Rick

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 07:58 PM

Dave Van Ronk never had anything on the Billboard top 40 charts(I looked it up)--not to say that he might not have gotten some regional airplay--Joan Baez also made the "top 100 charts" with her version of "We Shall Overcome"--the thing that gets me is, none of the oldies stations ever play "folk" hits, and there were many of them--

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Midchuck
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 07:52 PM

Then there's Ian Tyson.

Major folk star, with Sylvia, in the '60s.

The folk boom, their partnership, and their marriage fell apart in the '70s.

So he went to punching cattle and singing for the local cowboys in the local bars. (Well, actually, he was punching cattle on his own ranch, because a bunch of people recorded his songs, and some of them were hits.)

So he records some albums of his own cowboy songs in the '80s and is a star all over again (in the West, anyway.)

Saw him live in the Iron Horse in Northhampton, MA, in '95, I think it was. Full house. He said he hadn't been to Massachusetts in 30 years, since he had a star tour before....

Peter.

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 07:30 PM

The following all made it to Top 40 airplay, and nevertheless survived to have careers as folk singers:

Dave Vank Ronk, singing Joni Mitchell's "Both Sides Now"

Pete Seeger, singing Malvina Reynold's "Little Boxes"

Arlo Guthrie, singing Steve Goodman's "City of New Orleans"

Joan Baez, singing Phil Ochs' "There but for Fortune"

Notice how they are all covers.

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 07:19 PM

Interesting to me.....the best tune on that "Spirit In The Sky" album of Norman Greenbaum was "Good Lookin' Woman". I nearly wore that album out playing and re-playing that blues number.

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 06:33 PM

Rick, I just checked out Bruce Channel on Google. D'you know, for the last forty years I thought he was black ....

I suppose it was the ultra coolness of spelling your name "Channel" and pronouncing it "Chanel" (as in No. 5). Plus he has a real soulful voice. I just loved "Hey Baby.

Murray

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 06:15 PM

I seem to remember nearly everyone, at least everyone from before 1990, Rick. After that time, I am a bit vague. Oh, Lulu did have a hit with "Shout", not "Shout, Shout", but the Isley Brothers had the first hit of it, in 1959--

Harold Dorman died in the late 80's, and, I believe, had been an invalid for a few years before that--Norman Greenbaum's success destroyed his career, owing to the fact that many people thought that the song was serious, and he was a Jesus Freak--Do you know the name of his big hit, before "Spirit in the Sky"? It had one of the more memorable titles--

Zager and Evans were true "One Hit Wonders", a number 1 and never another hit. A lot of "one-ders" actually do have follow-up hits, but people forget them, NG, it turns out, had a top 50 follow up, a cover of "Canned Ham". I was a disc jockey when these last numbers were popular, and I was very excited about the fact that I had an advance copy of the Z&E follow-up, and I plugged and played to death. Later that year, I got moved to weekends on the "beautiful music" station--I didn't even have a mike--

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 05:05 PM

Other options for retired / one hit wonder folkies and recording acts.

Option (a): They move to Vegas and play there in lounges or perhaps showrooms.

Option (b): They become music producers, recording engineers, management or talent agents and make more money than they ever did when they were performing.

Option (c): They endorse $100.00 guitars on tv infomercials telling the listener "these little 100.00 guitars are top quality and the finest instruments I've ever played, and they sound comprable to a pre-war Martin D-28...."

Option (d): They put their instruments for sale on E-Bay hyping the shit out of it, and asking twice the price that the same said instrument would fetch at any reputable vintage shop - because they mistakenly believe they are still celebrities. (Are you listening Denny Zaegar? Yours might actually sell........in 2525.)

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 04:30 PM

Heather insists that LULU was the originator od "Shout Shout"!!! Jeezus! save us from YOUNG(er) Scottish rock fans!

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 04:27 PM

MTED, YOU D'A MAN!!!!!!

Bloody hell you're right about janis and Suzanne. Just needed a memory Jog!

Met Bruce Channell in Nashville a few years ago. Big time studio producer guy....but WHAT might Harold Dorman be doing?

Remember Melani? MONSTER ROCK HITS (at least three). Saw her at the Washington Folk Alliance and she barely had ten people for her showcase.

Remember Norman Greenbaum? Oh never mind!

Rick

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: C-flat
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 03:12 PM

I agree, Willie O, that the guys who are now WILLING to play for 50 people who care are a joy to work with. It's those that are there under sufference,out of financial need, that leave a bad taste.Some of these people seem to behave is if the world owes them something when often the reverse is true!

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 01:27 PM

Shame on you, Rick Fielding, for not remembering Janis Ian's "At Seventeen", which was actually a much bigger hit than "Society's Child", and must be one of the most depressing songs ever to hit #1(at least without someone actually dying in it)..As for Suzanne Vega, "Tom's Diner" became just as big a hit as "Luka" after two British DJ's put a beat track underneath the a capella track--And, though she had only those two hits in the US, "Luka" was her fourth UK hit--her sixth and last being, "In My Book of Dreams" which is a favorite of mine--

As to your allegedly difficult questions, the answers are :Harold Dorman, back in 1960, though both Johnny Rivers and Ronnie Dove covered it--I assume that you mean the Bruce Channel "Hey, Baby" and not either the Ted Nugent one, or the one by the Buckinghams--"Shout, Shout" was Dion Dimucci's good friend, songwriter Ernie Maresca, and Ma Belle Amie was the Tee Set, part of the little remembered "Dutch Invasion"--

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Willie-O
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 01:18 PM

...but if they had minor country music hits, they can keep on playing the county fair circuit long as they can stand it.

A little name recognition can keep you going for life if you take it to the people that remember it.

At the same time, it's not a straight dive from playing arenas to coffeehouses again the next year. After you live the fast lane for awhile and then crash and burn out of it, you usually are right out of it for awhile. When you pull yourself together, you decide what you're comfortable with, and can re-enter at that small-venue level. Those artists that used to play to thousands but are now willing to play for fifty people who care, are a great joy to work with.

W-O

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: C-flat
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 01:06 PM

Whilst not in the Folk genre,I have worked support for some ex-names in small clubs in the U.K. The most interesting thing, from my viewpoint,was how these guys handled their newly reduced status. Stan Webb (Chicken Shack),for example,was a complete arse! Lording it over everybody, shouting at his little gofer to bring cigarettes and generally making everybody uncomfortable. We couldn't even soundcheck! The reverse was true of Zoot Money, a lovely guy,shook hands with everyone (whether they wanted to or not) and insisted I helped him to drag his keyboard across the stage to give ME more room! Both guys gave value for money on stage and I suppose that's all the paying public ask but I reckon Zoot was happier with his lot and still enjoying life!

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 12:23 PM

Johnny Rivers
Buckinghams (okay, that was "Hey Baby, They're Playin' Our Song")
Isley Bros (I know, Not that "shout")
Somethin or other "Teacup"

....Hell, I don't know Rick :>)

Marty
I think question is a good one even if everyone else is getting caught up in the specifics of your examples more than the spirit of your question.

I kinda wondered the same thing when Johnny Rivers came to our small town and played a Hotel stage. They don't go from higher to lower than that.

I think it's a music BIZ question. a related discussion

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:38 AM

Marty, there IS a "middle ground" but it's NOT in the middle, money-wise, or audience size-wise.

The band Los Lobos had a number one hit record with "La Bamba". That translates into Rock and Roll stardom. It means playing for twenty thousand people in stadiums and arenas at HUGE money. Three years later they were playing the Mariposa festival...as HEADLINERS mind you, but to an audience of two thousand, and at (probably) money they would have laughed at when they were high up the charts.

I certainly remember Suzanne's song "Luca", Tracy's "Fast Car" and Janice's "Society's Child". These were not "Folk hits", they were BIG HITS period, and catapulted the artists to Arena and stadium venues. There IS a big difference between long respected careers and number one pop hits. If any of these artists had another "chart-topper" I'm not familiar with them.

I'm not sure Don maclean fits that category. I believe that after "American Pie" he did reach the top of the charts with "Crying". "Vincent" got a lot of airplay but it never knocked "The Eagles" off their perch.

Perhaps the best example of what you're talking about would be the case of Dan Hill's "Sometimes When we touch". For a year that was one of the biggest sellers of ALL TIME. Simply a monster hit. Prior to that, Dan was playing folk clubs...but during the next two or three years he was able to draw twenty thousand people. He had some much smaller "hits" afterward, but played for one tenth that number of people in concerts.

I remember Norma Tanega!!! Yeuchhh! I hated that song!

Obviously ALL the people named here are EXTREMELY well known in OUR field, but ask a strictly pop or rock fan (of any age) and my guess is they won't have a clue (maybe Los Lobos...but that's all).

Rick's "One hit wonder Trivia":

Who sang (first) "Mountain of Love"

"Hey Baby"

"Shout Shout"

"Ma Belle Amie"

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:23 AM

In the golden age of the British Music Hall (around 1880-1950), promising young performers were often given the following advice:br>

"Be nice to the people you meet on the way up - you'll meet them all again on the way down."

Wassail!

Mike

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: GUEST,Don
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:23 AM

This thread made me think: Does anyone remember a performer named Norma Tanega (that's a phonetic rendering of what I THINK her name was)? She had a single "top 40" hit back in the sixties. The song was called "Walking my Cat named Dog." It had rather a "singer/songwriter, acoustic" kind of sound, as I recall.

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:18 AM

Well, excuse a little thread creep, but I have to point out 2/3s of the examples you present went to Fiorello Lagurardia Highschool for Music and Art and Performing Arts, Susanne Vega, Performing Arts, Janis Ian (expelled I believe) from Music & Art. Bloody proud of 'em, Larry Otway (Music & Art). Should also point out, around the time Janice Ian was at MA, just after, my old pal Dave Krackhour of the Klesmatics was there, as was Bela Fleck, who was a bit younger than us, but would hang with us folkies, and was a damn nice kid. Still waiting for my one hit... Larry

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: GUEST,Scabby Doug at work
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:17 AM

I think what this may demonstrate is that the crieria by which one defines success in other areas of music - lots of press, media appearances, "big star" profile - have no relevance in the world of folk music.

What the hell is a folk "star" anyway?

I bet that most people would reject the notion that folk musicians ever get to be stars - because in many peoples' minds, it's not possible to equate the mass popularity and attention that denote "stardom" with the basic simplicity of the musical form ("Simplicity" is not a criticism -it's the highest form of praise as far as I am concerned).

How many times have you heard performers or artists who achieve commercial success crticised for "selling out"? Bob Marley, The Corries, Joan Baez.

Old faithful fans dislike having to share their precious favourites with the general public.

So....

folk music does not generate too many "stars", but occasionally folk artists achieve general popularity, sometimes joining and embracing the mainstream, at other times slipping back into semi-obscurity.

But I bet that a lot of the names that people in the folk world would nominate as "folk music stars" would be completely unknown to the public at large. They're the performers and artists whose work we love and respect, and those people are still doing what they do, in the way they always have, for the people who appreciate it.

Cheers

Steven

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Midchuck
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 09:49 AM

Only people who have had the Santa Cruz guitar company build a model named after them are entitled to call Janis Ian "obscure."

Peter.

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 09:25 AM

I don't think the musicians you cited as examples are exactly one-hit wonders. According to the All Music Guide, Suzanne Vega has recorded 9 albums, Tracy Chapman 8, and Janis Ian 23.

Concerts and tours? Suzanne Vega has scheduled 18 concerts in 11 countries between Feb 24 and April 25, 2002. Tracy Chapman apparently hasn't announced any future tour, but her most recent one included 84 concerts between March 28 and Sept 23, 2000. (After that, I'd want a year off. Wouldn't you?) Janis Ian has scheduled a tour of about 30 concerts between Mar 8 and Aug 8, 2002. (OK, a FEW of these venues look like they might be coffeehouses.)

I don't know how YOU measure success, but those performers are having very active careers. I think there are a lot of ex-rock stars that would be envious. (And so would most folk musicians.)

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Willie-O
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 08:30 AM

A lot of em get real jobs. Frequently in the music industry, where there are many ways to make a living other than in Unitarian Church basement clubs.

J Ian for example is a songwriter etc. in Nashville. And she is a HELL of a performer, and since she had a whole string of hits in her first career as an angst-ridden teenage singer-songwriter, I don't think she really fits your question.

There isn't just one answer, of course, but people that have found out how the music biz works have lots of options.

W-O

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 08:24 AM

Dave - that's a cracker!

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 08:16 AM

Have you seen the old man outside the Folkies Mission....

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 08:08 AM

Janis Ian certainly hasn't drifted into obscurity. Her career did take a slide at one point, (see her website0, but she has developed into one hell of a performer, (and an amazing guitarist). Last time I saw her she was playing in front of 3000 people, when I see her next month she will be playing to 120, so I guess it varies.

Murray

Subject: RE: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 12:08 AM

Ask Don McLean.

Subject: Where do the EX-folk stars play?
From: marty D
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 11:10 PM

Another thread (which seems to have attracted an irresistable troll) made me think about this.

Suppose you're a folk artist who manages to have one big mainstream pop hit, but can't follow up with another. Once the pop stardom and all the perks disappear, where does that person play? Is it back to small folkclubs in Unitarian Church basements, or even the folky bars where it can get noisy? Is there some kind of middle ground with decent venues, or is it straight from the 'penthouse to the outhouse'(forgive me rick F for stealing your line)

I know that it used to be that a country artist could have a whole career on one hit, but I think that many 'rock'nroll one hit wonders' just drifted back into civilian life, but what about folkies. I'm thinking of folks like Suzanne Vega, Janice Ian or Tracy Chapman who cracked the hit parade only once. I read about a fairly prominent folkie lady once who was riding high on the charts about six years ago and told Letterman or leno (or somebody) that she was definitely NOT a folksinger, because the term was too 'limiting'. It resulted in a few letters to Sing-Out from hurt former fans. This lady played recently at a very small coffee house near where I live, and certainly SEEMED like a folksinger now. She didn't even get a review in the paper. Any thoughts?

marty