BS: Rigging the Election

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 09:25 PM

Liberals woundn't be complaining if 'the other guy who won' was doing a good job. He ain't. Seen your national debt lately?

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: TIA
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 01:46 PM

Guest G:

1) "freedom of speech is an entitlement"

Never said it wasn't. Limbaugh absolutely has the freedom to say things that are disgusting, hypocritical, anti-troop crap.

2) "he was in a non-combat capacity"

Quibble, quibble, quibble. Exactly which marines in Iraq are in "non-combat-capacity"? Have we not had auto mechanics, interpreters, clerks, etc. killed and wounded?

3) "Please provide some sort of evidence as to your prediction."

Please read my election night prediction, then you go do some reading (how about your newspaper).

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 03:52 PM

It is a matter of honest elections.

...unless you don't really believe in democracy, in which case you probably don't want honest elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 03:31 PM

Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh Doug but there is no way you should be grouping suggestions of "voter incompetence" with an allegation of an approach to tamper with computer code!

As for voter incompetance. I do remember seeing an example of one of your forms - one that had caused a great fuss - a few years ago. It should have been plain to anyone that particular form would lead to mistakes and should never have been used. Even the most able of people are liable to make mistakes with badly designed forms and in an election, we should be doing our utmost to cater for all abilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 03:13 PM

What Don said.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 03:00 PM

No, Doug, you're merely exhibiting the obverse of your accusation that the only reason liberals are complaining is because the other guys won. You're perfectly happy because your guy got in, and you have no incentive to question the manner in which that happened.

Once again, I remind you of the 57,000 people in Florida in 2000 who were denied their vote, and the insufficient number of poling places in Ohio in 2004, making people stand in line for up to eight hours. And most of the districts lacking poling places were in areas that customarily go Democratic. Now whether or not this actually changed the outcome of the election is open for question. I don't know the answer, but neither do you. But, interestingly enough, Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 were swing states as far as the electoral college votes were concerned. In 2000, Bush lost the majority vote by a narrow margin, but won on the Florida electoral votes. Had those 57,000 people been allowed to vote, the election would most likely have swung the other way, because that would have given Florida's electoral votes to Gore. In 2004, many working people in Ohio complained because they had to go to work, and couldn't spend the day standing in line for hours to vote, so, in essence, were disenfranchised because sufficient facilities hadn't been provided. Add to all of this the possibility that votes were altered electronically (not because of hanging chads or failure to mark a paper ballot properly), and you have a big question mark hovering over the legitimacy of the two recent presidential elections.

Now, this should deeply concern every American, not just the Democrats. I remind you once again that cobbling elections is a two-edged sword. It cuts both ways. And some time in the future, you might not feel so smug about an election's outcome.

Tattoo this on your forehead backwards, so when you shave in the morning, you can read it in the mirror:

It isn't a matter of partisan politics. It is a matter of honest elections.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,G
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:48 PM

Amos @01 Aug 05 - 1:43 PM

Amos, Amos, Amos. "Perhaps the history of the species is irrevalent to you" - (not quoted from here) or are you still trying to figure out yours?*

A person would think that video would be replayed forever on CNN, MSNBC, CBS, etc. Did anyone see it once?

Amos, can't you play nice?
*The only reason you must have for making that comment is you are not sure of yours. I would not have thought of saying that.

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:37 PM

If a person can't connect a simple arrow with a felt pen (with a space between the feather and the tip to be fille in with the pen) perhaps one should not be voting anway. The same with punching a hole. You have a tool and you punch a hole. Such folks probably would have difficulty finding the polling place anyway.

Gee, Doug, you have the answer -- disenfranchise those who are "differently abled". Instead of having to be land-owners or having to pass a literacy test, you can give them complex symbol tests. That'll clear the ragamuffins off the voter rolls, ok. Brilliant!! Maybe we should make it part of the Constitution of this great Reich of ours.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,G
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:34 PM

I agree with "Depressed and wonder if making excuses for failure will cause many to continue to fail. While I may not be aligned with "D", I get somewhat outraged when I see anyone making excuses as opposed to making effort(s) for change, right or wrong, er, left.

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,G
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:28 PM

I just returned from a shortened fishing trip and find that...

To the point;

Tia;
1. I don't give a rats bottom what Limbaugh did or didn't do, freedom of speech is an entitlement. And Hackett held a position that garnerd him the title of 'staff puke.'

2. Nothing was said about non-combat areas, he was in a non-combat capacity.


3. I have a friend in Ohio, actually in that district who is a moderate Dem. He said that Hackett talked antiwar to the National press, but was a hawk locally. Did you not see Hacketts' main TV campaign ad where he had Bush commenting on "we are correct in being in Iraq" followed immediately by Hackett agreeing to the comment. Now you go do some reading. Make it from BOTH sides of the issue.

4. Please provide some sort of evidence as to your prediction.

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:16 PM

As soon as I figure out what search parameters to use, I'll see what I can find.

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: DougR
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:09 PM

Uh, what Amos suggested, Carol C, is kind of what I wondered. Again, if it is as prevelent as you suggest, it shouldn't be too difficult to cite examples.

Guest Jon: I think perhaps you are too quick to rush to judgement. Perhaps it is because you are living so far removed from American elections. I'm certain that there is some voter fraud in this country. However, as a whole, I believe our election process is fair and with only a minimum amount of it.

I think the problem most of these folks have who scream foul after an election is their candidates don't win elections. Therefore, SOMETHING must be wrong with the voting system. It doesn't even occur to such people that they may be backing the wrong horse.

If a person can't connect a simple arrow with a felt pen (with a space between the feather and the tip to be fille in with the pen) perhaps one should not be voting anway. The same with punching a hole. You have a tool and you punch a hole. Such folks probably would have difficulty finding the polling place anyway.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 11:38 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: TIA
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 05:22 PM

1) Limbaugh is not, and never was, an enlisted man (does anyone remember why not? hint: his ass). He has not earned the right to use the term staff puke.

2) Hackett was IN Fallujah during the battle. Besides, ask anyone who has been there - where exactly are the non-combat areas in Iraq?

3) Now, go do a bit of reading. Hackett ran directly and openly against Bush and the Bush agenda.

4) The late night tally-switch happened didn't it? Does my ability to predict exactly this worry anyone?   DougR???

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 03:54 PM

Also a polite term for REMFs (rear-echelon mother fkrs).

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,Depressed
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:55 PM

FYI - "Staff Puke" is a term used by enlisted men for officers who are in a non-combat role. Hackett basically ran as a Repub. His primary commercial as seen on Cable news started with a comment/video of Bush doing a positve blurb on the war followed by Hackett agreeing with him. I wonder what might have happend if Hackett would had run on his beliefs; 'Bush is the worst thing to happen to the US, the war is wrong'. Will we ever win anything by coping the opposition?

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:36 AM

Unfortunately, Amos, I have mostly heard about it while listening to programs discussing this sort of thing on the radio, rather than from anything I've read online. But if I get a chance, I'll see if I can find anything online to show you. I know there are at least a handful of people who quit their jobs with major news organizations and went on to write in small independent online publications for the reasons I mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:27 AM

Carol:

I'd be interested if you wanted to gather a list of such reporters and the stories about them. I don't doubt they are out there, I just haven't seen 'em.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:13 AM

Go back and read my post again, DougR. The word "fired" does not appear in it even once. I said they have been quitting. The reason they have been giving for doing so is that they are not free to report the news. They are saying that their editors are suppressing important stories that conflict with the agendas of the special interests to whom they answer. The journalists are saying that they are quitting because this state of affairs makes it impossible to have or maintain any kind of journalistic integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:58 PM

Normal, Don...

That's all these crooks know how to do... Yeah, get their brownshirts out in force to keep blaming others fir their failures....

Why is it that you don't hear the Bushites talkin' about "personal responsibility" any more??? It's becuase they are no longer in denial about being crooks... They just don't care if they are crooks... Hey, better to be in the winner's circle, evenm if you stole it, than to not be there...

Hypocrits...

Autocrats...

Brownshirts...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:37 PM

Hold it, pdq! If you'll check back in this thread, I think you'll see that the possibility of voter fraud in Florida was brought up by Doug (2nd post, right after Amos). The main topic is the contents of the video that Amos linked to--the writing of a program for Republican clients that would allow them to change the results of an election.

Let's try to stick to the point rather than tossing in red herrings all the time.

(What am I saying!??? "Change the subject" is the name if the game when someone criticizes anything the Republicans do!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:31 PM

There's amounatin of evidence that Greg Palist collected on the 2000 election fraud in Florida...

He has copies of documents... He goes thru the entire deal...

Had Jeb Bush, the presidenty's brother, and Katherine Harris had not done the crimes then Bush would not be president...

Read "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" by Greg Palist... It's all there... It's irrefutable... It's documented... The copies of the memo's are there...

Read it fir yerselves if you think I'm makin' it up..

Evwen the Washington Post wrote about it some 3 months late and burined in the A section...

Bush and his thugs pulled off the hiest of all time: the White House...

This ain't about generic voter irregulariteis... This is about a governor of a swing state riggin' the crap out of an election and it's about when this brother almost blew it that a bunch of Supreme Court folks who were appointed by Bush's father and Ronnie Reagan stopped a recount!!!

The 2000 Election was the biggest fraud ever perpitrated on America... Even beats out 1876 Hayes/Tilden election which up until 2000 still stunk up the joint....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:15 PM

Well done, well said, TIA.


Thanks!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 10:20 PM

GUEST, TIA: I would give you a standing ovation had you said that where you could see me stand. BRAVO. Piss on it. I just gave you one. BRAVO, BRAVO, BRAVO!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 10:02 PM

As night falls in eastern US, and initial results are reported, the Democratic candidate leads. What are the odds that when we awaken, in a surprise late-night turnaround, the vote tallies will reverse to favor the Republican candidate? Deja vu? In Ohio...again.

But that was speculation. This is not. Today, Rush Limbaugh called Congressional candidate and Iraq war veteran Major Paul Hackett of the USMC a "staff puke". This is called Supporting the Troops.

Al Franken has been n USO tours to Iraq three times, with a fourth imminent. Sean Hannity said he was going to Iraq, but when he was told that it could be dangerous, he went to Aruba instead. Hannity, of course, is the one who "Supports the Troops".

Today, the total of young Americans killed in Iraq topped 1800, and Bush left on a one-month vacation to his ranch in Texas, all the while Supporting the Troops.

During the 2002 congressional campaign, the Republicans ran an ad that morphed the face of Max Cleland, who lost three limbs in Vietnam, with that of Osama bin Laden. Ann Coulter said he lost these limbs by "fragging himself". Wonderful Support for the Troops.

Someone in the Whitehouse outed a CIA operative. Though not in uniform (due in no small part to the fact that she was covert…yes covert and the CIA itself is the judge of that aren't they?), how does outing her (and her cover company, and all her contacts over the years) Support the Troops?

When tens of thousands of pounds of explosives went missing from a warehouse in Iraq, Rudy Giuliani said that it wasn't the Bush administrations fault - it was because the troops on the ground didn't do their job. Not making ANY of this up. This is how we Support the Troops.

Who is being tried for the abuses at Abu Ghraib? Any leaders. Nope – only the troops. This is a particularly clever form of Support.

Oh, and we have reduced VA benefits for regular service vets, and denied benefits to reservists (who are shouldering an historically disproportionate share of the load). More welcome Support.

These bastards have taken the phrase "Support the Troops" (which I DO), and turned it into thinly disguised code for "Support Bush and the Party Line". They've done it so thoroughly, and in the latest case of Mr. Limbaugh, so disgustingly, so partisanly, so flipping-ahole-traitorous-bastardly that I can no longer sport a Support the Troops ribbon. But I will come up with a phrase that these manipulative, unprincipled, hypocritical, self-serving power-mongers have not yet poisoned, and I will be wearing a new ribbon by tomorrow night.

And I hope that the early lead holds, and grows large enough to overcome the clever wee-hours vote swapping that will surely be atempted, and tomorrow morning the people of southwestern Ohio are represented by a staff puke.

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 09:03 PM

Ebbie:

You may, and echo it in the face of all those who contributed to this defamation of a once great social idea.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 08:18 PM

Jon, you are astute. McGrath of Harlow has often made the same point. Those who leap into the thread in blithe - and mindless- defense of what is currently going on in the USA are routinely missing that same point: We should not condone and certainly not allow this kind of thing to happen. When we do, it is not the kind of country that we envision and strive to achieve.

DougR, may I quote Joseph Welch? "Have you no shame? Have you at last no shame?"

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 08:12 PM

"If you really want to examine voter fraud, why do you and others always talk about Florida 2000? Seems to me that the 300% trunout in one district of St. Louis that same year should be a good case to study."

Absolutely right about that, However, the 2000 election is the most recent that has come to light. It doesn't matter which party is doing it; what does matter is that it can be done. It means that the democracy (I know it's a republic) you love can be hijacked. And it is being hijacked. And that should make everyone--republican and democrat and independent--cringe.

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 08:07 PM

Doug R, you astound me. Surely the issue is that your elections are so open to fraud. If, as you suggested, the story was not reported on CNN (or presumably other major media outlet), surely you should be asking questions of the media, not using it to justify what to me reads/views as very serious allegations.

As a UKer, and therefore an outsider in all this, to me you are turning pride in American democracy into a joke. It's quite pathetic to see such an issue be more or less dismissed on lines including "it's just sour grapes because you lost" or "well you've done it too".

There seems to me to be a short circuit in your thought process. You will leap from something like this straight into your type of defence without a moments pause to consider any consequence or implication in the middle. Are you really that brainwashed?

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: pdq
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 08:03 PM

Yep, DougR. When someone asked a Democrat precint worker why the late returns from Alice were running over 99% for Lyndon Johnson, the man replied "I guess they really like him out there in Alice".

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: pdq
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 07:58 PM

You miss the humor, Don Firth. Those are just the top 100 cities in the US in exact order, largest to smallest.

Point is that all cities have a Democrat 'political machine', most rural areas do not. I moved from #11 on that list to a remote part of the Nevada desert. What an improvement! People are polite, the voting machines are 'state of the art' with a paper record, hiways are almost always empty, and there are more species of birds than just Starling and English Sparrow!

If you really want to examine voter fraud, why do you and others always talk about Florida 2000? Seems to me that the 300% trunout in one district of St. Louis that same year should be a good case to study.

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: DougR
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 07:48 PM

pdq: I didn't see Alice, Texas, the town that figured prominently in electing Lyndon Johnson to the Congress on your list. Of course I guess some folks would find it acceptable to list dead people on the voting roles. Provided they were Democrats.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 07:37 PM

Weak, pdq. Anyone with minimal computer skills can cut and paste a list of cities. Where is your documentation. Got a link?

Also--I don't doubt that Democrats have tried hanky-panky in elections, but does that justify the Republicans establishing a method of cooking the books to favor themselves?

How about genuine election reform instead indulging in wholesale sneakiness?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: number 6
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 06:03 PM

"But if for no other reason than to preserve one's self-respect, one must keep trying."

So correct Don, I'm with you. The atmosphere maybe helpless, but you must preserve your self respect, hang on to your moral and humane convictions.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:13 PM

Interesting noise, PDQ -- from what source?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: pdq
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:05 PM

Actually, the preponderance of voter fraud in the USA occurs in our big cities, under the auspices of the Democrat party. The 100,000 Republican ballots found floating in the river in Chicago,1960, was the tip of the iceberg. Nothing new, either. One San Francisco election in the 1880's was swung by 'voters' who resided in a grave yard in California's 'gold country', Placerville if I recall. Yep, everyone of the 240 cemetary residents preferred the Democrat.

Here is a partial list of cities where 'machine' politics rutinely thwarts the will of the people:

New York NY
Los Angeles CA
Chicago IL
Houston TX
Philadelphia PA
San Diego CA
Detroit MI
Dallas TX
Phoenix AZ
San Antonio TX
San Jose CA
Baltimore MD
Indianapolis IN
San Francisco CA
Jacksonville FL
Columbus OH
Milwaukee WI
Memphis TN
Washington DC
Boston MA
Seattle WA
El Paso TX
Cleveland OH
New Orleans LA
Nashville TN
Denver CO
Austin TX
Fort Worth TX
Oklahoma City OK
Portland OR
Kansas City MO
Long Beach CA
Tucson AZ
St. Louis MO
Charlotte NC
Atlanta GA
Virginia Beach VA
Albuquerque NM
Oakland CA
Pittsburgh PA
Sacramento CA
Minneapolis MN
Tulsa OK
Honolulu HI
Cincinnati OH
Miami FL
Fresno CA
Omaha NE
Toledo OH
Buffalo NY
Wichita KS
Santa Ana CA
Mesa city, AZ
Colorado Springs CO
Tampa FL
Newark NJ
St. Paul MN
Louisville KY
Anaheim CA
Birmingham AL
Arlington TX
Norfolk VA
Las Vegas NV
Corpus Christi TX
St. Petersburg FL
Rochester NY
Jersey City NJ
Riverside CA
Anchorage AK
Lexington KY
Akron OH
Aurora CO
Baton Rouge LA
Stockton CA
Raleigh NC
Richmond VA
Shreveport LA
Jackson MS
Mobile AL
Des Moines IA
Lincoln NE
Madison WI
Grand Rapids MI
Yonkers NY
Hialeah FL
Montgomery AL
Lubbock TX
Greensboro NC
Dayton OH
Huntington Beach CA
Garland TX
Glendale CA
Columbus GA
Spokane WA
Tacoma WA
Little Rock AR
Bakersfield CA
Fremont CA
Fort Wayne IN
Arlington VA

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:33 PM

But if for no other reason than to preserve one's self-respect, one must keep trying.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: number 6
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:10 PM

I can't help but agree with your Don.

It is the complacency, and apathy that has allowed society to lose hold of it's democratic and moral values.

yes .... it is disgusting. It leaves a feeling of helplessness and despair, no matter how hard you persevere.


sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 03:37 PM

Between smug complacency, cynicism, and general apathy, I despair for the future of the country.

Disgusting.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: number 6
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 03:17 PM

BTW ... that statement above was from me ... 6 at work.

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 03:14 PM

It is quite evident that lying is becoming an accepted norm in our society.

Not stating that I agree with it, not stating 'if you can get away with it, go for it" .... I'm just making a statement.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 03:06 PM

Doug,

While the deponant did not say the election was rigged he did testify that he delivered a documented program to the manager and was told it had to be covert, hidden, for the specific purpose of ensuring the/an election was won.

This does not prove that it WAS modified to be covert, but it does prove that the Republican participants in an honorable democaratic process were strongly interested in corrupting that process for their own ends. It also proves that they had bought the capability to corrupt the process.

Of course that doesn't prove they DID corrupt the process -- just that they were willing to pay for the ability to do so.

However, I would suggest that if a public servant is willing to spend public money in order to corrupt a public democratic process that that public servant is dishonest and corrupt.

I think that is the real point; your support of dishonest, corrupt individuals.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: DougR
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 03:00 PM

OH, and some folks have made much of the programmer being under oath. I think O. J. was too, wasn't he? I was involved in a law-suit one time and the person I was opposing lied through her teeth several times while under oath. If one has a strong enough motive, one might lie under oath. Despite her lying, however, I won my case.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: DougR
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 02:54 PM

Yes, one and all, I DID listen and watch the whole tape Amos posted. I do not doubt that the hearing took place, and I don't question the veracity of the witness. That hearing, however, does not prove that the election was rigged. It lent evidence that one COULD be rigged I suppose. IF the eletion was rigged, I repeat, every news organization would have reported it. It's too big of a story to ignore. In regard to Palist, perhaps the news media did investigate his charges but did not believe the source! He didn't have an axe to grind did he Bobert? Palist certainly would be considered unbiased, right?

And Carol C:, the only journalist that I have any memory of being fired was the one on the New York Times that was fired for manufacturing stories. If you have specific examples of reporters being fired because their bosses did not agree with their political philosophy, I'd be interested in hearing more about it. If it is as prevelant as you claim, it should not be a problem to direct us to some sources.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: number 6
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM

I'm certainly not saying I condone the 'rigging of election'.I dislike it immensly. It is foul, it stinks. Greed for power and election rigging are parallel. If there is a way to eliminate the human element for greed and power then a more democratic, humane society will evolve. The question is, how do we eliminate that element, this element that has been escalating rapidly in the last few years. I do feel we are entering an era of complete domince by the untrustworty, the greedy, the power barons whose actions are beyond our control. It is obvious the democratic side is voicing it's concerns (and I am one who has and does voacalize). These concerns are heard, but the 'dark' side is oblivious to it.... the dark side will not relent in it's frenzy.

As I mentioned in a previous thread ..... helpless, helpless.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 02:18 PM

Uncle Dave, the juries were also selected by lottery, and were kept large to make sure there was a substantial cross-section of citizens' viewpoints, so the idea of their being stampeded is pretty unlikely. The trial of Socrates was a whole different thing. And it is also one of the examples of where Athenian democracy failed.

Woodruff is not maintaining that Athenian democracy was flawless. But they tried a helluva lot more diligently than we've been doing lately.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 02:01 PM

Don Firth said:

Also worth noting is that Athenians held their leaders accountable. Upon a public official's leaving office, there was a formal examination of how well he did. This was not committee of cronies, but a jury of citizens. And juries often numbered as many as 500. Too many to bribe. Interesting idea!

Maybe 500 is too many to bribe, but not too many to be stampeded. In fact, I think 500 is more likely to succumb to a lynch-law craze than 12.

Remember, it was one of those huge juries that condemned Socrates to death.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 01:23 PM

From First Democracy by Paul Woodruff:

"Democracy depends upon listening to opposing views, but in time of crisis, people forget this. If you speak out against a popular measure, you may be branded as an enemy of the people. But that is not democracy at work; it is the majority of the moment acting the part of a tyrant, having its way by the use of fear and intimidation."

The more I think about appointment of leaders from the citizenry at large by lottery, the better I like it.

Also worth noting is that Athenians held their leaders accountable. Upon a public official's leaving office, there was a formal examination of how well he did. This was not committee of cronies, but a jury of citizens. And juries often numbered as many as 500. Too many to bribe. Interesting idea!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:12 PM

It is great to be reminded of that wonderful, powerful song. Thank you, Amos. More on it here.

That was a 'hymn' during the 1950s and 1960s. Probably a good time for another revival.

Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:07 PM

WHile impropriety of elecion processes have always been around, slx, so have the voices demanding improvement and correction and refusing to settle for criminal manipulation. You can choose apathy, or going into agreement with the criminality, or you can choose to raise your voice against it.

They say in Harlan county, there are no neutrals there
You'll either be a union man, or a thug for J.H. Blair.
Which side are you on?
Say, which side are you on?


A