BS: The London Mayor Election

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:44 AM

Boris Johnson's tactician

Known as "the Australian Karl Rove", Lynton Crosby is described as a master of "under the radar" campaigning. He delivered four election victories to the Liberal party, often using dog-whistle issues - those only heard by voters at whom they were aimed.

A 1992 Crosby advert linked a fatal stabbing by an Aboriginal man to the Labor government's supposedly soft sentencing policies. He was accused of running "wedge" campaigns which divided voters by focusing on emotive issues such as abortion and immigration.

A 2001 campaign advert suggested, falsely, that a shipload of refugees had thrown their children overboard in an attempt to enter Australia.

He is said to advocate "push polling" - phoning voters on the pretext of conducting a poll and then spreading damaging rumours about a rival candidate. He is also quick to accuse the media of bias: in the 2001 Australian elections, 75% of complaints from political parties to the Australian Broadcasting Corportion came from Crosby.'

The Guardian, Wednesday April 2 2008

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:24 PM

It's always the same. THe rich don't ahve to pay. THe poor get nothign.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:18 PM

For any Mudcatters unfamiliar with BiorisJohn son, here is a sample. With Arnold Schwarzenegger being gobsmacked at the notion that this man could be a serious political figure.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 06:36 PM

Sometimes it's suggested that Boris must just be playacting, and that behind the buffoon there is a sharp intelligence.

Naah - to adjust the old saying, it's buffoons all the way down. If people vote for that, that's what they are going to get. The same way they did with Dubya in the States. (Though I'd grant you, up against Dubya Boris would rank as pretty sharp.)

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 05:55 PM

last post was me

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 05:53 PM

"Easy to trip up any interviewee. Just ask a question so specific that only the current incumbent has the information to answer."

The question was specific to Boris not to ken as it centred on Boirs's plans to reintroduce a revamped routemaster.

As Ken is not considering this option he would in fact be the one you would expect not to be informed.

His answer however was still more useful - research and development costs on their own would make the whole process more expensive.

Thanks - in the absence of an answer from Boris I have to operate according to the information supplied by ken.

"Ditto the ones who don't see through that technique....Simple!!"

... I see ... that'd be me then ... right ...

I agree ... your view is simple :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 05:46 PM

Don, you're welcome to see, confidentially, my formal accounts.

Before you slag off the Volvo emissions, check them. Mine also fuel injected.

Particulate emissions are the point of the restrictions on polluting big diesels - not Volvos like mine.

You told me yourself the reason you would not drive a Volvo was that it was not fast enough. I'll remind you. It was the day I came with my chainsaw and trailer to remove your cherry tree (for my log burner).

As for wealth, make up your mind. Am I one of the rich screwing you, or am I one of the poor being screwed by the likes of Boris? I know. Shame you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 05:42 PM

The implication no doubt being that Paxman was unfair on boris while he somehow let ken off lightly?

Poor Boris!

Why hasn't he costed his plans?

That's what Paxman asked him - I want to know too - how much would his plans cost?

can he afford them?

Is he opting for the more affodable alternative or is his alternative more costly in the long run?

I want to make an informed choice!

oh what - he hasn't actually thought them through that far?

well then I don't want him within a million miles of the public purse!

And that was only one example of a refusal to deal with the quesio directly - "yes but what do YOU think?"

And by the way, this may come as a shock, but Gordon Browns salary is in fact all payed for by the taxpayer.

That is who the government is paid by.

So all this "his TV licence is paid for by the taxpayer" is a load of farcical nonsense. It would be paid for by the taxpayer anyway, whatever his salary or expense allowance.

These aren't salient or useful points, they are "hype" and "spin". Labour, tory, whetever, I know spin when I see it.

That's why I like ken - he tells you what he's going to do as mayor and gives you the choice whether or not you want him for the job.

According to todays free rags, he is currently polling higher than Johnson. Younger voters, (more worried about the state of the world we are to inherit than our babyboomer predecessors) support him.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 02:37 PM

Easy to trip up any interviewee. Just ask a question so specific that only the current incumbent has the information to answer.

Simple innit?

Ditto the ones who don't see through that technique....Simple!!

Richard, I don't have the big car because it's fast. I have it because it is powerful enough to tow without costing too much extra in fuel (a very significant amount, for one who can only dream of the kind of income lawyers enjoy, and please don't insult my intelligence by claiming that you have a clue what it's like trying to live on a pension blighted by the fact that your friend Gordon stole five billion pounds from our pension funds).

The only way that speed comes into the equation is that I can travel up and down hill at a sufficiently high and consistent rate, not to become a rolling roadblock on hills (handy if Jeremy Clarkson happens to be behind me)



""So, shall we discourage high particulate emissions, or not? Really tough question that (not).""

I would suggest that my 13 year old fuel injected Ford is most likely a lot lower in particulate emissions than a 20 yearold Volvo.

THAT is why your car will pass its MOT on higher emissions than mine. It's built in to the test (Incidentally, my garage told me the last two MOTs my car was emitting in line with the limits for a six year old of comparable cubic capacity).


""Look at the fact that his Australian hitman campaign manager has clearly ordered Johnson to keep his trap shut since when he opens it it's only to put his stinking rich foot in it.""


It's the money that REALLY bugs you isn't it mate?? And the fact that HE's got it!!




""the shafting that that bitch Thatcher and her vegetables gave every worker and claimant in the country.""

I refer you again to my comment re the five billion pounds wiped off pensions by Herr Chancellor Braun, of....Let me see now....AH! YES, NEW LABOUR!!!!


Scratch a "socialist" politician in this country, and you will find a capitalist who is good at hiding what he and his buddies have nicked from the working man.


There are just a few who don't (or didn't) fit that last comment, and it's only fair to say so.

They are (or were):- Tony Benn, Neil Kinnock, John Smith, and the aforementioned Bob Marshall-Andrews.

By the same token, the most villainous, and corrupt of all time were Harold Wilson, and Jim Callaghan.

We're still finding out JUST how crooked the current lot are, but I was interested to hear that one of them is so poor the taxpayer pays his TV licence. Even single mums don't get that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 01:58 PM

Did anyone see the debate last night?

You might like or dislike ken, but at least he answers the question.

Shades of Michael Howard here from Boris ...

paxman: - "but the question is how much would you spend? ... yes but how much ... yes but how much ... "

Boris looked like a blundering moron. How anyone could vote for him after this display is beyond me.

here it is

For you Americans, the interviewer is Jeremy Paxman - one of Britains most valuable assets.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 10:53 PM

Well, Don, you ought to try getting some facts in if you want to speculate on my income or income tax. You don't need a big car to tow a caravan. My caravan cost me £250, and that was before I hit a tree with the roof. I could tow it fine with my Skoda - the one a grateful client gave me for nothing. Even if you did need a big car, if you had a 20-year old Volvo like I now have, it would not be getting car tax increases because it would be too old. Oh, but I forgot to mention, you wouldn't have a Volvo because it was not fast enough, was it?

And as for pollution - hmm - well - breathing is not optional. You gave up smoking when you figured that out. So, shall we discourage high particulate emissions, or not? Really tough question that (not).

As for the 10p band, I've not followed the figures but the official GB position is that other supports ensure that no person losing the benefit of the 10p band need be worse off.

Alas Robert Marshall-Andrews QC MP is retiring.

You can't with any seriousness lay the failings of New Labour (no longer any sort of socialist party since discarding clause 4) at Red Ken's feet. They kicked him out, remember, and had to come grovelling back when they needed him.

How do I know Johnson will destroy the safety net we all need? He's a conservative. Not a "New Conservative" - a conservative. There has been no rewrite of the conservative constitution like New Labour did toemasculate the Labour party. Look at what the conservatives have always done. Look at the fact that his Australian hitman campaign manager has clearly ordered Johnson to keep his trap shut since when he opens it it's only to put his stinking rich foot in it. Look at the fact that any time Johnson gets asked a real policy question he just plays goldfish.

Anyone who isn't rich and white voting for Johnson is just like turkeys voting for Christmas. He's Shirley Porter only prettier. David Icke would be a better mayor!

Before any of you ever think of voting for any conservative at anything - look again at the shafting that that bitch Thatcher and her vegetables gave every worker and claimant in the country. Ken may have his faults (although on the other hand at least New Labour hate and fear him) but anything he does wrong - we all make mistakes - is a drop in the ocean beside the organised malice of those who would steal from the poor to give to the rich.

And Teribus - yes, so the BNP is racist? Well who'd have guessed?
And you approve of that do you? Your point, exactly?

Lox - well said and good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 06:42 PM

Nice,

Only that Labour sacked him and then grovelled to have him back, preferring to field a different candidate rather than risk the wrong one.

But it is interesting how the job of mayor has a more presidential character surrounding it as it seems to be more about personalities than about parties.

That is a precedent that may make the whole London context continue to develop in a unique way.

It may be a reason why the Moyor of London may end up, by precedent, being a comparatively independant office.

I is certainly the reason why the tories have fielded "a character" as their candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Rog Peek
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:59 PM

As long as you view these polititions with complete and utter scepticism, then they'll not diappoint you will they?

As the Consevative party helped Boris Johnson launch his campaign today I watched Ken Livingstone on the BBC news say, when asked about Boris "A party that's frightened of its own candidate being off the leash is a candidate you'd not necessarily want running London".

Has Ken forgotten that when he was running for the same office, his party KNEW he was "off the leash" and tried everything in their power to stop him. Personally I don't care who gets to be Lord Mayor, but I do object to being treated like an idiot with a memory the length of a Goldfish!

Of course, once he'd been elected he was welcomed back into the Labour Party bed with open arms, or so it was made to appear.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 03:47 PM

Thanks teribus,

Perfect timing.

Sobriety kicks in again!

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 07:27 AM

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/tim_hames/article3648815.ece

Never, ever thought I'd read something like this in "The Times" - Just goes to show, particularly the comments tacked on to the end of the article.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 05:57 PM

By the way,


My point (not that I don't appreciate the sentiment Don) is that I don't need sympathy. I'm doing great thanks to a well organized support system for those who need it.

Precisely, in my view, the role of government.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 12:00 PM

I'm all for it Liz.

LIZ'S CAT FOR MAYOR!!

(what's his name?)

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:50 AM

Perhaps I should put one of my cats up as a candidate then?

No more bendy buses, free milk for all kitties under 10 and the run of the Underground system between 1.00 - 4.00am for mouse catching purposes?

It can't be any more ridiculous than some of the options.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 08:44 PM

In Hartlepool they elected the town's football mascot Monkey for a joke. Electing Boris would be rather similar. Though I wouldn't stretch the parallel too far - I believe the Hartlepool Monkey actually made quite a good mayor.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 06:25 PM

I'm not partisan - like most londoners I don't like to be bullied by either party.

Remember that when ken first became mayor he was white ken, having been expelled from Labour and thus in competition against red Frank (stifled-laughter)...

My judgement of Boris the Menace is based on many contributory factors.

I think he's all personality and no substance.

Harvey Keitel said at the end of Pulp Fiction: "Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character"

His charm gets him out of scrapes. He plays the lovable rogue.

The lovable rogue routine is a tried and tested means by which rogues make a virtue of their rogueishness by presenting it as endearing.

The brits love that sort of thing which is why they buy shite like robbie williams.

But it's not something that inspires trust in me.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:53 AM

You have my sympathy, Lox, and yes, treatment can be very different in different areas. I am very glad that you have had a good experience of life in London.

But, your comments about Boris Johnson are a bit of a stretch wouldn't you say?

You put words into his mouth and predict his actions based on what?

A vitriolic hatred of anything to do with conservatives, regardless of the fact that you know precisely nothing of his intentions?

You have been paying too much attention to certain rabid Tory haters who have forgotten the Wilson/Callaghan days when Labour took us to the brink of disaster with an inflation rate that reached 21%, before the 1979 election, and that was AFTER they devalued the pound.

There are both honest men, and charlatans on both sides of the divide, and it would be smarter not to slander a man until you have more to hang an accusation on, than the name of the party he belongs to.

I make no secret of the fact that I am a Tory supporter, yet the politician I most admire is Robert Marshall-Andrews, a true labour man, and a thorn in the side of the Blair/Brown empire. Would that there were others on this forum, prepared to recognise quality, no matter the colour of its politics.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 09:56 PM

Well of course I've got it tough (monty python annyone?).

I'm a single parent who can't afford a car.

I arrived in London last March with nothing, having spent it all on legal fees trying to protect my litle girl from the damage of an abusive home and drugs, dealers etc.

The system caught us in a safe pair of hands and held us clear of the water for as long as was necessary to allow us to regain a level of independance.

free Libraries, cheap travel, free museums, financial support (housing etc) medical support (when my daughter caught a vicious cough over the winter a GP came to visit us within an hour of my call - never had that in Leicester), all these things made life possible, not just in terms of survival, but in terms of keeping the harsh realities out of my little ones childhood experience and being able to maintain a cushion of carefree optimism in her life.

I believe that Boris would have absent mindedly and thoughtlessly pulled the rug out from under my feet by slashing spending in my region due to superfluous and unnecessary prioritization of the needs of people such as myself.

I'm sure he would also have argued that I should have stopped whinging and got a job ...

In other words, it is probable that without the superb support I received, I would have ended up homeless with the result that my daughter would now be in care as is the case for many families outside London where the level of support is often totally insufficient with the result that families are needlessly broken up and the lives of children are needlessly allowed to disintegrate before they have had a chance to flourish.

My experience of London is helpful people committed to giving support where it is needed.

And you know what - the air needs cleaning!

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 07:29 PM

Still too much road traffic in Inner London, that's true, but it's better than it was. I say that as a pedestrian looking at the traffic as I pass it. And on occasions when my daughter, who has to travel by car because of disability, has been into London, it's been a lot better since the charge came in. (And of course she doesn't have to pay it.)

If fewer Londoners used cars it'd be a lot better. The system under which residents pay less and visitors more is the wrong way round, in a sense. Though it'd be politically impossible to turn it the other way round I suppose.

So long as all the money is used to improve and subsidise public transport in London the congestion charge seems a pretty good idea.

I prefer doubledeckers - but bendy buses have been running in cities all over Europe for years now, and they seem to work well enough. Bring back the trolley buses. And of course the bus conductors.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 07:44 AM

I never go to London at all, if I can avoid it, but sometimes my work takes me there, and as a professional driver, using pulic transport is not really an option on those occasions.

If you think that the congestion charge has made driving easier in the Capital, think again. London is still semi gridlocked most of the time, and double length bendy buses trying to negotiate narrow streets, and tight corners, are removing most of the little that WAS gained.

So, yes, it's a silly idea, but try telling that to the people (e.g. sales reps) who have their working lives disrupted because they HAVE to go into London, and then have to enrich Red Ken's coffers, adding insult to injury.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 07:27 AM

So you need a car to get around where you are, Don. So do I, living the same sort of distance outside London as you do.

But I'd never dream of taking it into London, and if I did I'd see no reason why I shouldn't pat the Congestion Charge, which has clearly driving there much easier.

Driving in Central London just generally seems a silly idea.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Gervase
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 07:08 PM

Don, in terms of income I probably make you look rich, yet there is no way on this green earth that I could ever vote for the selfish, narrow-minded and divisive policies of Boris and the Greater London Conservatives. Or even the 'New Conservative' Notting Hillbillies as promoted by Cameron.
As someone who was Labour to his bones for many years, and who has known and supported Ken since his GLC days, my vote would be for him if I had one. However, Brian Paddick, on the basis of what he says, seems to be someone with some seriously good ideas. I had some dealings with him when I worked in London and found him to be a thoroughly decent, intelligent and concerned man. He would certainly deserve a second glance and a careful reading of his policies. It's just a shame that it's a two-horse race - and that Ken does seem to have done some good for London. And Ken is not Gordon - don't conflate the local with the national.
Forget the idiot Boris and have a long, hard think about Paddick or Ken.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 06:56 PM

Kitty,


I know a man who has been running a small greengrocery service into Southeast London, for more than forty years. He had a well established clientele, and although he wasn't making a fortune, he was able to live comfortably.

Not any more!

£100 per day to carry on his business, was more than his profit, and to bring his single truck up to the necessary emission standard was quoted at £5000.

He is now going to have to survive on a pension, which may involve selling up and looking for a smaller house.

Bear in mind, this is only the first step. The plan is to bring smaller and smaller trucks and vans into this scheme over a period of several years, until eventually it will involve all commercials. That could persuade many companies to get right out of London

We are being told it will not apply to private cars, but of course they could change their minds about that, and in the fullness of time, as they need more and more dosh to finance Red Ken's grandiose schemes, they WILL.

I get very annoyed when non drivers pontificate about car use. My car is NOT a luxury. To get to my work involves driving fifteen miles at right angles to the main routes. To go by public transport involves two hours on four different buses, or 30 miles into London, four miles across on the tube and thirty miles out to my destination.

As a result, I am forced to join the most inordinately overtaxed group in this benighted country. So please don't tell me leave the car at home. I pay through the nose to use it

Does anyone really believe that this is about air quality as opposed to revenue raising?.....I don't think so!


The standard government (national or local)response to a need for cash is cane the poor, the pensioner, the motorist. Has anyone noticed that they never tax the gambler, the lottery winner, or the filthy rich.

Socialism in action, err......NO!

Any genuine socialist would have to vote for Cameron. He is way to the left of Gordon (Lurch) Brown

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 06:26 PM

"You are an intelligent man, Don - but how can you not see? Boris is there to make his ilk rich, and yours poor. At the end of the day, that is why the petrol emotion is justified. You have seen the dispossessed. How can you empower the dispossessors?"

I am one of the people who suffer most from the benevolent ministrations of your so called party of the common people.

The same party which has consistently greeted every problem by trying to price it out of existence. It is Gordon Bloody Brown who has been responsible for almost all the problems I am having just to survive.

His removal of the 10p tax band has had a minimal effect on those who earn £15000 - £40000. It has improved the lot of those earning £40000 +.
So who foots the bill? GUESS!

Anyone whose pay doesn't top the 10p band limit, has had his tax DOUBLED, at a stroke, and some who get slightly more, have still suffered a loss of earnings.

You are an intelligent man Richard! Tell me how bashing the lowest paid in the country over and over again is not equivalent to what you claim is Boris Johnson's agenda.

I can only afford holidays if I use a caravan, for which I need a fairly large car. Now I face prohibitive road tax, as well as £5.00 per gallon fuel.

You don't always need bricks to build a wall, as you well know Richard, having built a pretty sturdy one between yourself and the truth, and I haven't read the Standard, or any other "News" paper for at least 30 years. I glean most of my information from the BBC, which, despite its leftist leanings is usually reasonably accurate factually.

You are a man who probably pays more in income tax than I receive in total income, so don't presume to lecture me on the hardships of life. You are watching them from afar. I am living them, and it wasn't the Tories who emptied MY pockets, it was your favourite comedy duo Blair & Brown, and believe me, I'm not bloody laughing.

And I know plenty more like me who feel the same, so don't hold your breath for the win at the next election.

Even the solace of a pint or two has been made a little more difficult, by a chancellor too stupid to realise that most binge drinking takes place at the night clubs this government now allows to stay open all night, and not in local pubs.

Binge drinkers have the money to absorb his price rise. They ccouldn't afford to binge otherwise.

So once again the poorest, the low paid, and pensioners get shafted so the idiots at Westminster can pretend to be doing something about the problem.

The old labour party was just barely credible as giving a damn about the working man and social justice.

New Labour isn't credible, period!!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:36 PM

"The only "minority" group who don't have a voice in the court of King Ken are British white people." Are you sure you want to stand on that, RR?


"As opposed to your own well balanced and finely judged position, just to the left of Josef Stalin, Richard?" Getting close, Don. But I do know enough not to treat Stalin as a model socialist, Don. Time to go back to school. Oh, and how often do you read the Standard?


"Red Ken is building a wall around London to keep out us dreadful country folk, and it will eventually stifle the Capital." Tell me Don, where are the bricks?

You are an intelligent man, Don - but how can you not see? Boris is there to make his ilk rich, and yours poor. At the end of the day, that is why the petrol emotion is justified. You have seen the dispossessed. How can you empower the dispossessors?

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 06:00 AM

I have no doubt that Ken will see off the challenge of Boris who is indeed a shallow racist with a right wing agenda.
However, I would like to see Lindsay German standing on the "Left List" platform get a thumping vote.
Lindsay has been a leading anti war activist and is also an outspoken opponent of the neo liberal agenda being pushed by the main candidates.She is a left wing socialist, a writer and a real tribune of the marginalised and working people.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:31 AM

MORI Polls may be pretty reliable, but they are only a poll and they are only the responses of a small section of the population. I live in London and no-one has asked me whom I would prefer for mayor.

I don't really mind who we get just so long as we don't get any more bloody bendy buses.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 09:04 PM

Don - I think you're a bit OTT about the Low Emission Zone. It's currently aimed at vehicles that could convert to higher emissions standards at a lower cost than continuing to drive into London without converting. Trucks that comply with the emissions standards don't have to pay. People who travel on public transport won't be affected at all....

Kitty (who lives in the LEZ)

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 08:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:46 PM

""The Standard has been after Ken with lies and half-truths and a terrifying single mindedness for years now, and the merest glance at any of its pages will show you its extreme right-wing agenda.""


As opposed to your own well balanced and finely judged position, just to the left of Josef Stalin, Richard?

Red Ken is building a wall around London to keep out us dreadful country folk, and it will eventually stifle the Capital.

The low emission zone goes out as far as Heathrow, fifteen miles from central London, and will, in the fullness of time prevent access by all except the richest travellers.

Currently it adds one hundred pounds to the cost of every truckload of goods brought in to the Capital, and who will foot the bill for that? The consumer!!!

So it will be even more expensive to live, work, or visit, in London.

By the time the quality of the atmosphere overhead is satisfactory, all the businesses, and half the inhabitants will be unable to afford to stay there.

Great going Ken

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: folk1e
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 05:40 AM

"I want a surrealist government." .......RR

At least (s)he has calmed down a bit now (almost a sensible arguement .... imo still wrong though)

Need I say more?

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 06:48 PM

And as for whether or not Ken has a problem with Jews,

check this out

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 06:41 PM

By the way, the link that supposedly supports the quote in which he is meant to support killing traitors to Islam took me here



Absent evidence I'm afraid ...

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 06:18 PM

Hey - I have a foreskin!

We aren't talking about clipping my toenails here!

In my point of view all circumcision is mutilation.

My foreskin is extremely sensitive and serves more than one physiological purpose.

If I had a son and anyone trid to circumcise him I would treat them with the same swift reprisal that I would give if anyone were to attempt to do the same to my daughter.

Akin?

They are both forms of mutilation!

Has Ken ever been asked to give his opinion on the issue of rushdie or the sudanese teddy?

I am equally ignorant of his views on the Israeli Palestinian question, having till now been more interested in his views on London.

As for the beating your wife issue, I believe it is important to consider the context.

Women, in countries like Saudi, Qatar and other gulf states have a pretty rough time of it.

Cultures change slowly.

He advances an agenda for change that hasd as one of it's components the enfranchisement of women within Islam.

If he stands up and shouts "equal rights for women" from the roof tops, he will lose all credibility and influence overnight by alienating men who will se him as a subversive threat to their culture and society.

He isn't admoishing men in quite the way that you or I would, but he is doing it nonetheless.

Who is his target audience?

I think you have to be subtler than that in your assessment of him.

Though I understand your point, I don't see it as being quite as comprehensive or as dramatic as you are making out.

You can also be Palestinian and Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: folk1e
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 03:01 PM

would you trust this man to be mayor

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:29 PM

No. I have looked at the links, as you have done, and it hasn't changed my mind about Qaradawi.

For a start, female circumcision is not the same as male circumcision, where only the foreskin is removed. Female circumcision is more akin to mutilation.

Qaradawi has also ruled that a grown up Muslim who decided to convert to another religion or become an atheist "is a traitor ...and thus deserves killing."

Yes, beating your wife is the last resort, but he does condone it. Well, I ask you, in these post feminist times, if you would like to call it that, is this acceptable for a so called progressive like Livingstone?

You say that English people also support the Palestinian cause, which is fair enough. [You can be English and muslim.] But to support the murder of young children? This is a step too far. This is the voice of hate.

Do you see Livingstone inviting a Jewish rabbi from Israel over to London to put their case while drooling obsequiously over them?

He recently attended a rally, organised by the Muslim Council, to defend the freedom of worship - as if freedom of worship was in danger in this country - but have you heard Livingstone defend the right of writers to speak freely against religion, such as Rushdie? Livingstone, so vocal in voicing his opinions, was, at best, mealy mouthed on this; but vigorous in supporting Qaradawi.

Livingstone's actions belie someone who will say anything to garner the support of alienated Musims, say whatever to win them over, and if it is at the expense of another group - the Jews- then so be it.

There are worse clerics than Qaradawi, but he is still bad. (I'm still hunting for his approval of Mein Kampf and Protocols, although these books are popular within a hard line circle of Muslims throughout the world. I shall find them.)

If Livingstone is so progressive, why has he not, in terms, unequivocal, condemned the murder of Theo van Gogh; the murder of Israeli citizens, including children; female mutilation; and come to the defence of Rushdie and that teacher in the middle east who named a teddy bear after Muhammad which resulted in thousands of Muslims to come out on the street and demand her death? Mealy mouthed mumbles at the best of times: accommodation of these people at the worst of times. For example, when Qaradawi was over here, why didn't our Mayor ask these questions of him? Because it was not in his interest to do so.

People have got wise to Livingstone and hopefully democracy and our personal liberty will be well served when the people of London throw him out.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:22 PM

Ok, I read the refutation and then I followed the links and then I read the whole of each link leading to each cited bit of source material.

There are things there that I don't agree with, especially to do with circumcision, but when you bear in mind that men are ritually circumcised in the US and in Israel, the question must be asked - who has the right not to be circumcized and who doesn't and if we all share that right then all perpetrators of such a crime should be held equally accountable.

On the question of domestic violence, I read about how a mistreated wife has the right to divorce her husband and how those men who are violent towards their wives are "less than the rest of us".

As is the case with the archbishop of canterbury, Qaradawi is a scholar who writes lengthily on topics and does not just say dogmatically "this is good" or "this is bad", but explores issues in depth and considers all the arguments. In his case it comes down to interpreting the Quran specifically.

His efforts are an attempt to interprtet the Quran in as relevant a way as possible to the worries and needs of everyday people and their worries.

I'm not seeing any attempt to mobilize men to go out and murder gays or beat their wives.

I do see (and for the record I disagree with him)that he is partisan in his support of the palestinians in what he perceives to be an armed conflict between them and what he sees as the occupying state of Israel over territory and resources.

But I know many white English people who share that view, so it is probable that someone from Qatar will have sympathy for the palestinian cause.

I have to go despite wanting to stay and write more.

But my view in a nutshell is:

Taking selective quotes of an islamic cleric out of context to prove that Ken Livingstone is a threat to our security is a sequence of logical jumps that I am far from being persuaded to make.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 11:11 AM

I'm reading Fear of FLying by Erica Jong at the moment, which is an extremely well written book.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 11:10 AM

This is a reply to the Mayor's report that the Gay and Lesbian Humanist Associaiton put out:

http://www.galha.org/briefing/qaradawi.html

Sorry I cannot do the blue clicky thing. Some times it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:58 AM

"I suspect how people react to this book will depend quite a bit on where they stand politically. I have noticed on blogs and messageboards that it has enraged the Trots and Trot-lite fellow travellers in the anti-war movement. It's also had enthusisatic approval from those you might expect it from - Christoper Hitchens, John Lloyd etc. Whereas I imagine some on the Right will (wilfuly?) misread the book as "all Lefties are soft on terrorists". (Although having said that Peter Oborne wrote a very fair-minded review)"

Interesting.

A review of the various reviews. And they do differ.

The general consensus seems to be - a good attempt with useful ideas, but also self indulgent and misguided.

I still need enlightenment on what he has to say about Qaradawi and more importantly HOW he supprots his claims.

That's you job.

Glad you enjoyed the book.

Read any others?

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:48 AM

Nick Cohen hopefully provides verifiable sources?

If I'm going accept accusations as serious as the ones you are making I will neeed to see some kind of evidence, if not that they are true, then that they have been recognized to be true by some accredited arbiter - like the courts.

as in the case, for example, of Abu Hamza. Evidence wasprovidedand he was convicted.

What do you have on Qaradawi.

Ok lets go check out Nick Cohen.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:39 AM

I looked at it here

And heard peter tatchell call him homophobic and antisemitic.

And didn't see any evidence provided to support these accusations

The pope is homophobic according to the same criteria as he sees homosexuality as being at odds with catholicism in the same way that Qaradawi sees it being at odds with Islam.

You won't find any catholic or moslem saying that homosexuality is ok - it's against their religious teaching.
And likewise their is no evidence of him advocating violence against homosexuals.

Should the pope be denied entry if he wants to come to the UK? should ken refuse to see him?

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: redsnapper
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:35 AM

At least two of us Londoners here like Ken Livingstone...

RS

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:27 AM

who is he?

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:27 AM

As I said before, I got it from Nick Cohen's book, "What's Left." It's worth reading.

However, look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CWvmqDrItI

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:25 AM

Qaradawi's website