Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Les in Chorlton Date: 28 Apr 12 - 12:40 PM Dave, is your last comment in any way related to the current case of the MI5 Agent found dead in a sports bag? Best wishes Les Barleycorn (no relation) |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Dave Hanson Date: 28 Apr 12 - 03:12 AM You waited 7 years to say that ! you should crawl back up your own arse. Dave H |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,bluegreydude4 Date: 28 Apr 12 - 02:27 AM @rockmusichater....Traffic is only arguably one of the best rock bands of the late 60's - early 70's. The song is a classic and if you don't care, I suggest you shut the hell up and go back to sleep under whatever rock you crawled out from under! |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Artful Codger Date: 31 May 11 - 04:17 PM Much earlier in the thread, parts of the song "John Barleycorn Is a Hero Bold" (aka. "Hey, John Barleycorn") were quoted; it is "John Barleycorn (2)" in the DT. I would warn against using this particular song in examining any deep metaphorical meanings in the John Barleycorn lore because the song was written for the music hall by Joseph Bryan Geoghegan ca. 1859. Although it repackaged previous John Barleycorn material (including from Burns, who himself was probably repackaging), the metaphors in Geoghegan's text are mere imitation. For more information on that song, see the thread "Tune Req: Hey John Barleycorn": http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=66785 |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Jack Campin Date: 30 May 11 - 05:35 PM Here is the letter I mentioned before.
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Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Les in Chorlton Date: 30 May 11 - 12:41 PM Circle of Life? Looks pretty linear as people are born and other people die. Looks rather like death wins over life for us all in the end L in C# Still an optimist |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST Date: 02 May 11 - 04:05 AM Jack (from a year ago), That is the version recorded by Denny Bartley / Last Night's fun. I'd wondered where it came from - cheers! |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,glyng Date: 01 May 11 - 03:07 PM symbolize life's triumph over death |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,glyng Date: 01 May 11 - 01:00 PM it's about the cycle of agrarian life. birth, death and rebirth. but rebirth only comes with a sacrificial offering. think circle of life |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,The Truth Date: 27 Aug 10 - 01:50 PM I learnt me own version of the ditty thisa way: One early morn, after an evenin spent drawin lustily from a particularly fine bottlea Scotts Whiskey (AND takin me a gooddeala Guinness too, I'm afeared) I heard music aplayin from somewheres. Most faraway & eerie soundin too, it was. Couldn't figure out the source no matter my tryin. Finally stuck me head 'neath the civvers and got me answer: The tune was aplayin out me arse. But only those verses most describin me own behavior and soundin much like charges read inna courtalaw: Me servin John B worst of all by pissin him against the wall, makin an arse of the strongest man, and all that. Seems John B hisbloodyself was aplayin me a song of comeuppance from inside me own gut and using me arsehole for amplification. Never agin sampled the Man's (John B's tha 'tis) wares--tea only now for this sad bloke. Thus to this'un here the ballad is a warnin of the direst sort. John B indeed "proved the strongest man at last." |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Les in Chorlton Date: 22 Jul 10 - 09:43 AM Aren't most good songs, by their very nature, more than the sum of their parts? Some of us see and hear much more or maybe just some features of the song differently because somebody wrote a realy sophisticated song without setting out to include hidden messages? I suspect that people in the 18 or 19 C experienced the song in a different way to how we do to day. Please excuse the appalling prose L in C |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: mattkeen Date: 22 Jul 10 - 08:47 AM You only have to hear it once to know its about more than beer, dont you? Though it is obviously about beer as well Its sort of really deep English blues to me Would have liked to have heard Robert Johnson do it! Anyway its great and my favourite versions are from Martin Carthy and Chris Wood - admitedly they are related as Chris learnt it from Martin |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: mattkeen Date: 22 Jul 10 - 08:43 AM In AA speak John Barleycorn is often a reference to temptation and the devil |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Jack Campin Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:41 AM I see nothing in Burns's piece that's specific to whisky. If he meant that, I'd have expected an extra verse about the distillation step. There isn't one. Which to me suggest that Burns had beer in mind. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,PlayingWithTraffic Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:10 AM I'm surprised that none have commented that, in fact, barley is not only used for beer but is malted to make some of the finest scotch whiskey. Certainly the Burns poem refers to that over beer. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: IanC Date: 17 May 10 - 10:54 AM Barley |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: MMario Date: 17 May 10 - 10:35 AM "John Barleycorn" in AA parlance I believe is just a generic term for Alcohol in general. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,Heather Date: 17 May 10 - 08:28 AM Somebody a ways back asked what aa is speaking of when they refer to John barleycorn, and I just would really like to know. Does anyone know? Is it the seductive nature of the drink??? |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,the ancient eskymo Date: 12 Apr 10 - 11:28 AM in all deference to all the "jon barleycorn" musical renditions, i feel that the best version is that of Jethro Tull, off of the "little light music" album... |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: kendall Date: 05 Apr 10 - 11:31 AM It's from a recording by Gordon Bok. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Apr 10 - 07:25 AM GUEST, where is that from? It's rather like George Mackay Brown's: The Ballad of John Barleycorn, the Ploughman, and the Furrow George Mackay Brown As I was ploughing in my field The hungriest furrow ever torn Followed my plough and she did cry "Have you seen my mate John Barleycorn?" Says I, "Has he got a yellow beard? Is he always whispering night and morn? Does he up and dance when the wind is high?" Says she, "That's my John Barleycorn. One day they took a cruel knife (O, I am weary and forlorn!) They struck him at his golden prayer. They killed my priest, John Barleycorn. They laid him on a wooden cart, Of all his summer glory shorn, And threshers broke with stick and stave The shining bones of Barleycorn. The miller's stone went round and round, They rolled him underneath with scorn, The miller filled a hundred sacks With the crushed pride of Barleycorn. A baker came by and bought his dust That was a madman, I'll be sworn. He burned my hero in a rage Of twisting flames, John Barleycorn. A brewer came by and stole his heart Alas, that ever I was born! He thrust it in a brimming vat And drowned my dear John Barleycorn. And now I travel narrow roads My hungry feet are dark and worn. But no one in this winter world Has seen my dancer Barleycorn". I took a bannock from my bag. Lord, how her empty mouth did yawn! Says I, "Your starving days are done, For here's your lost John Barleycorn". I took a bottle from my pouch, I poured out whisky in a horn. Says I, "Put by your grief, for here Is the merry blood of Barleycorn". She ate, she drank, she laughed, she danced, And home with me she did return, By candle-light in my ingle-nook She wept no more for Barleycorn. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST Date: 05 Apr 10 - 07:07 AM ...I took a bannock from my pouch Oh how her hungry mouth did yawn By candle light in my old straw bed She wept no more for Barley Corn. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Jack Campin Date: 04 Apr 10 - 07:14 PM If GUEST has an Anglo-Saxon source for it, let's see it. I don't believe there is one. There is an early source for the John Barleycorn story that puts a different spin on it. It's a letter from a Flemish painter of the 16th century, reprinted in Letters of the Great Artists (ed Richard Friedenthal, 2 volumes, Random House 1963), written to accompany a gift of some wine (I think to the city fathers, who he was trying to bribe to get a commission). The two differences are (a) he tells the story about grapes rather than grain and (b) the genre he is parodying is Protestant martyrology. I don't have access to the book at the moment but the letter is about two pages long and easy to locate. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Phil Edwards Date: 04 Apr 10 - 06:58 PM probably written during the time when the English were still known as the Anglo-Saxons, before Christianity came there Good Lord. Have you got any evidence that the song goes back that far? |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Bounty Hound Date: 04 Apr 10 - 06:50 PM Goodness me, we are getting complicated! The song simply runs throught the process of sewing, growing and harvesting the grain, and then the process of turning it into beer! Some versions leave it at that, and some have a warning as to the effect of over indulgence. Simples! |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST Date: 04 Apr 10 - 06:38 PM The original JB was a old english folksong, probably written during the time when the English were still known as the Anglo-Saxons, before Christianity came there. There may in fact be a connection to a Anglo-Saxon pagan entity called Beowa, who's name is Anglo-Saxon for "barley", so JB may have been about the pagan cycle of bith, life, death, and rebirth. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST Date: 13 Feb 10 - 06:35 AM i dont know |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST Date: 15 Dec 09 - 06:56 AM So far as I heard, John Barleycorn was the fictive name for the illegal brewed alcohol during prohibition time. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,squeezeboxhp on laptop Date: 10 Mar 09 - 06:08 PM the Bradshaw Mummers are performing the new play this year based on the song John Barleycorn and will perform it at Chester festival and Warwick among other venues this year. miss it at your peril. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 10 Mar 09 - 01:16 PM Actually you did quote it last year; but in one of the other 'John Barleycorn' threads: John Barleycorn and Farmers Boy? It first appeared here a couple of years back, with a short discussion, in thread Folklore: Odd Minstrel Song = John Barleycorn (?) |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Mar 09 - 03:26 AM I intended to put this version up first time round - thanks for the reminder. Jim Carroll JIM JAWBONE TUNE. "Yankee Doodle was a gentleman." Jim Jawbone was a color'd man, Ob de true negro blood, sa, In old Virginny he did grow, Among de 'bacca buds, sa. His fader cum from Alabam, His moder cum from Guinea, Dey suckled little Jawbone wid De leaf ob ole Virginny. Chorus: Success to de tobacco leaf, An' to de Jawbone Grinny, Sing may dey raise for our relief, De plant ob ole Virginny. Dey cradled in tobacco stalks, Dis blooming infant black, sa; An' long before he larnt to talk, He squealed de name of "bacca." Soon as young Jim fus' larnt to creep, Dey missed an' thought him killed, sa, But dey found him in de field asleep, Upon a bacca hill, sa, Chorus As Jim growed up, de more he show His vegetable breed, sa; His 'plexion from the de sable crow, Turned like de yallar weed, sa; His limbs growed so jist like de plant, When cutting time come round, sa, He took 'em for tobacco stalks, An' cut'mself clar down, sa. Chorus So poor Jim Jawbone had to die, All by dis sad slipstake, sa, He hung him up wid stalks to dry, Upon de 'bacca brake, sa; Dis pipe I cut out ob de bone, Dat growed out ob his shin, sa, An' de more I smoke de 'bacca out, De more keeps coming in, sa, From Christy's Panorama Songster, 1852 |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,TampaSteve Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:58 PM A great song and lyrics nonetheless! |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,JohnChop Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:46 PM Regarding Guest Dave's post on 12/2, the term "John Barleycorn must die" dates back to the 1600's. With barley and corn being the two major grains alcohol was made from, the term arose when you woke up with a hangover (probably not what they called it back then) and cursed the drink you had the night before. However, the folk song and this thread make it very clear that the lyrics describe the harvest cycle. The grain must be put in the ground (die) to ready for the next cycle. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,JC Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:23 PM PMB I think the mystical bit is mainly an American academic thing; Phillips Barry appears to have been the main culprit in his note to 'The Lakes of Col Finn' in The New Green Mountain Songster (Yale 1939), but I have encountered it elsewhere. Agree with you entirely about it being a straightforward drowning ballad; in fact one version is referenced to an actual location in Northern Ireland (think this is in Sam Henry's 'Songs of The People'). Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: mattkeen Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:16 AM According to Chris Wood, Martin Carthy refers to "John Barleycorn" as the "the passion of the corn" Seems pretty good to me, as does the fact that it holds other meanings other than being just about beer/drinking. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,PMB Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:36 AM I've never heard any Coolfinn with mermaids or magic islands, and I can't find it in DT/ forum.... any links? It's always seemed a straightforward case of drowning through reckless behaviour, plus a clairvoyant dream. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,Jim Carroll Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:08 AM Sedayne, "I'd really like to hear that, Jim." If you're serious, put up your address and I'll send you a copy - sorry; never got round to solving my membership problem so I can't mail you off-line Jim Carroll
Joe Offer joe@mudcat.org |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Herga Kitty Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:13 PM Roger Jenkens sang the Songwainers' version as their encore at Haddenham festival on Saturday - to the tune of "We plough the fields and scatter". "Come put your wine into glasses, put your cider into old tin cans Put Barleycorn in the nut brown bowl, for he's proved the strongest man". Peter Woods gave a presentation on John Barleycorn songs at the last English National Folk Festival at Sutton Bonington a couple of years ago, after which I sent him Howard Kaplan's version of Professor Barleycorn Kitty |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: theleveller Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:50 AM I don't know if there is an element of 'fashion' amongst folk performers or whether it's just coincidence, but John Barleycorn has been on three CDs I've bought recently - Van Eyken, Chris Wood and Imagined Village. Then I went to see Oysterband at Pocklington Arts Centre the week before last and they did a version. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Les in Chorlton Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:44 AM Do people search for older or more obscure meanings as a reaction to established religion and its power, now diminished, to organise daily life and the passage of seasons? |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Jack Blandiver Date: 04 Dec 07 - 03:59 AM I'd really like to hear that, Jim. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,Jim Carroll Date: 04 Dec 07 - 03:25 AM There is a tendency to read all kind of mystical significance into some of the older songs - if it was ever there it has been irretrievably lost; pity. We recorded a nice version from an elderly farmer in the west of Ireland, the last verse of which sums up all the indignities John Barlycorn (in this case The Barley Grain) has to undergo, then finally ends up being 'pissed against the wall' - nicely down-to-earth, so to speak. For real flights of fancy, try following up The Lake of Coolfinn, with its magic islands and mermaids. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego Date: 03 Dec 07 - 11:24 AM In matters of historical context, I happily defer to my British friends. However, the term "John Barleycorn" was also used in the U.S., along with phrases such as "Who struck (hit) John?," "Demon Rum" and "Old Reliable," among many others, as a pseudonym for hard liquor - especially cheap or bad booze, which was prevalent on the frontier in the late 19th century and during Prohibition. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Jack Blandiver Date: 03 Dec 07 - 05:00 AM Could it be that John Barleycorn is Roman Catholic theology couched in symbolic language owing to the persecutions subsequent to the Reformation? Otherwise for a plethora of persectives on John Barleycorn check out John Barleycorn Reborn . |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: TheSnail Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:49 PM What worries me is, who were the three men from/into the east/west? what do they symbolise? |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,Dave Date: 02 Dec 07 - 10:16 PM Well, Almost a year with no follow up. Listened to Traffic's version tonight and wanted to know why JB must die. Thought maybe he insulted a king or queen and ended up in this thread. Quite intrigued by the "nut brown bowl" thing.... perhaps that what's nut brown ale is named after? |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Scrump Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:11 AM The song is simply a clever or witty tale detailing the stages of growing barley for making alcohol. Its a personification. Its not all that deep. Just entertaining. Give that man a cigar... or maybe a beer would be more appropriate :-) That's exactly what I've always thought too. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: Ruth Archer Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:20 AM My ex-mother-in-law was at school with Steve Winwood, but unfortunately she never gleaned whether his "arrangement" of John Barleycorn was about pot or not, because they were 5 at the time and he tried to kiss her but then wet himself. She never talked to him after that. Only saying. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,Jason Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:06 AM Amazing that this thread is seven years old and only very few have even a clue. The song is simply a clever or witty tale detailing the stages of growing barley for making alcohol. Its a personification. Its not all that deep. Just entertaining. The Traffic song is great too. |
Subject: RE: Meaning of John Barleycorn From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 01 Dec 06 - 01:40 PM I have recently been playing with a Middle Eastern music group, and last week one of us came up with a song in Persian to words by Rumi. The poet says that he is so drunk (with divine love) that if someone were to grow wheat on his grave and try to bake bread from it, the bread would turn to alcohol which would not only intoxicate anyone who ate it, the oven itself would get drunk and dance. Which sounds like it has to have been derived from some version of John Barleycorn current in mediaeval Persian/Anatolian culture. There are quite a lot of just-pre-Islamic songs about drink in Arabic, anyone know them and know if there's a John Barleycorn in there? |
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