Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 04:54 AM

"Buck" = deer ??

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,John Braden
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 08:43 PM

1. Was Paddy's Lamentation written during the American Civil War?
A line reads, "There is nothing here but war," present tense. So the war is a current thing, per the song's narrator. Of course, there are a number of songs written after an event that speak of it in the present tense. I would be interested in knowing when the words first appeared in print (the 1864 "Paddy's Lament" being an entirely different song)
2. What was meant by the term "Indian Buck"?
a. "Indian buckwheat" is mentioned in 1866: "All About Buckwheat... Varieties of Buckwheat... A variety called Indian buckwheat (P. Tartaricum) is grown to some extent in New England, for fattening swine, not producing flour palatable as human food. The kernel is harsh, coarse and nearly ovate." July 11, 1866 [Butler, Pennsylvania] American Citizen p. 4, col. 1, available on the LOC's Chronicling America website.
b. However, there is no evidence that Indian buckwheat was ever exported to Ireland; whereas, by contrast, the export of Indian corn (both in the shell and milled into cornmeal) to Ireland during the Famine is well documented. See Cecil Woodham-Smith, The Great Hunger (London: Hamish Hamilton 1987).
c. Consequently, I think it likely the song in question refers to Indian corn, not Indian buckwheat.
d. So why did the songwriter not say Indian corn? Because it wouldn't rhyme.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 10:22 AM

Frank Harte explains on the sleeve notes, "The title of the song is a corruption of an Irish phrase Bí i do thost or be quiet which in fact is translated in the first line of the song......Well, it's by the hush, me boys and that's to make no noise".

I've been watching the Scandi-noir series "The Bridge". which is in Swedish with subtitles, and one of the characters said something very similar to "thost" for "be quiet". I've also noticed the Swedish word for good is "bra", which is the same word in Irish, as in "Erin go bra".
It got me thinking about the possible Scandinavian influence on the Irish language, which of course would have come from the Vikings. Does anyone have any other examples of this?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: michaelr
Date: 21 May 18 - 08:41 PM

Boontling? There's a term few Irish would know. I happen to live not far from Boonville, California, where that was a local, made-up language.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: meself
Date: 21 May 18 - 07:02 PM

Diverting?! Diverted me for about twenty minutes... ! Funny, I recognized a couple of those words as general slang - I wonder how many others were just slang terms they had picked up and incorporated into their Boontling ...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Lighter
Date: 21 May 18 - 04:31 PM

More great research, Mick.

But I do doubt that the phrase originated in the song, if for no other reason than the song seems not to have been very well known.

Further conjecture is probably not useful, but it may be that "Indian buck" was once far better known than it has been since the 1860s. While plenty of rural Irish words and phrases are recorded in earlier literature, there's no reason to assume that every last one appeared in print, or has been discovered if it did.

About all we can say is that "Indian buck" almost certainly meant "cornmeal" in Ireland in the 1860s, as it has more recently, but that one could easily have lived a long and productive life any time over the past 150 years without ever encountering it.

In other words, it is and was very rare.

The dialect dictionaries are filled with such terms. Neologisms don't always spread far..

The extreme case of "Boontling" in California is not entirely comparable, but you may find it diverting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boontling

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 May 18 - 10:42 AM

Sean

We all know what Indian buck is in the time after the song. The question Lighter is exploring is did the term originate before the song. References to the term "Indian buck" (outside of the song) are few and far between.

Origin of phrase "By the hush" was posted above by McGrath in post of 13 May 98 - 02:10 PM.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Sean Fear
Date: 21 May 18 - 06:37 AM

“By the hush" is a corruption of the Irish "bí i do thost", or be in your silence "be quiet"
Indian buck refers to the corn Lord Trevelyan imported during the Great Hunger to feed starving Irish. It is what we now call field corn, animal fodder which is largely indigestible by humans.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 May 18 - 05:57 AM

Lighter

For the searches I used "Indian buck" food and "Indian buck" maize. Archive.org I often text search directly; it seems more reliable than google for the texts there.

It's still possible that the song is the origin of the term. The gap to the 1920s seems long to find no references. (There is a reference to Indian buckwheat from 1884 in A dictionary of English names of plants applied in England and among English-speaking people to cultivated and wild plants, trees, and shrubs" (p233). Maybe the writer just contracted Indian buckwheat for the rhyme).


There's another Irish reference to the term in some local recollections: Local Happenings. It's transcribed there "There was a plague of Cholera in this district, supposed to have happened after the Famine. The cause it is said was, that the people got nothing to eat except "indian mean porridge and the women didn't know how to cook it. It wasn't boiled enough. The old people call Indian meal porridge "Indian buck". I can't find a date for the document, but I think might be recent. The term does seem to be known in Ireland though.


I've now found an earlier reference to an Indian buck-bean. 1822: Curtis's Botanical Magazine, Volume 42 has the entry on p84:

June 198 Menianthes indica Indian Buck-bean

This appears to be a wetland flower of some kind, not maize, also known as bogbean. It appears to have some medicinal uses Bogbean-buckbean.

It's possible the writer of the song knew this term (again I haven't checked how popular it was) and found it a useful rhyme, though the context seems to indicate that a food was intended in the song.


The other song I mentioned, The Ingy Buck, has lyrics and the use of the term in this article on mustrad: The Hardy Sons Of Dan.


Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: meself
Date: 20 May 18 - 11:09 PM

Of course, the 'Indian buck' in the song is in old Ireland, the country I delight in, and pointedly not in North America. But then, in at least one of Mick's quotes, it's associated with North America ....

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Lighter
Date: 20 May 18 - 09:38 PM

Of course I meant to write "to say that it does" (refer to something else).

Hasty last-minute editing.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Lighter
Date: 20 May 18 - 09:35 PM

Mick, I can't understand why these references didn't appear to me when I searched Google Books. However, I've checked via the links, and they are perfectly legitimate. You have my gratitude

It's especially surprising to see "Indian 'Buck' corn" in use in the U.S. - even if the Irish song was made here.

It would now obviously be pedantic and perverse to insist that "Indian buck" in the song refers to anything other than cornmeal, even though the song is at least 60 years earlier than the next earliest example. To say that it does not would seem to be stretching coincidence beyond the breaking point.

Overall, though, it must have been a very rare regional term. It isn't in the multi-volume, seemingly exhaustive Dictionary of American Regional English either.

(For now, I'll stick with my suggestion that "buck" meant "buckwheat." Clearly it was meant figuratively when applied to (coarsely ground) cornmeal, presumably the Native American equivalent of animal fodder fed to people.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: meself
Date: 20 May 18 - 09:03 PM

That's good enough for me!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 May 18 - 03:31 PM

There are some other references, none early though.

Just The Way It Was: Tommy Dan Tims Derrinageer, Ballinaglera A true story of a traditional farm life in County Leitrim, Ireland - 2007 (according to amazon): The corn meal was called Indian buck. It was good for the chickens and we could also make porridge from it

A bit earlier is this 1940s publication quoting The Cornell Countryman of 1922 Corn in the development of the civilization of the Americas : a selected and annotated bibliography (p6)! The Indian 'Buck' corn was planted by the pioneer whites and became our 'York State Flint,' and it was the sight of this corn growing six feet high on the banks of the Susquehanna that induced the members of the Sullivan expedition to sell their military grants to enter what is now Tioga, Chemung, Broome, and Tompkins
Counties.

There's also a reference in the Ballad Index to an alternative title for Bad Luck Attend the Old Farmer, but again no idea how old the reference is. It was collected in 1980 in Fermanagh, Northern Ireland.

Nothing definite before the song era as you say.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Lighter
Date: 20 May 18 - 02:43 PM

Thanks, Mick, for another very helpful post.

However...

A search of the hundreds of millions of pages available through Google Books back to before 1800 shows only *one* example (aside from Abbott/Fowke) of "Indian buck" as some sort of food. Nor does it appear the HathiTrust Digital Library or in the various newspaper databases I've consulted, including one devoted to the Civil War.

Nor does "Indian buck" appear in either the OED or the English (including Hiberno-English) Dialect Dictionary.

And the *one* finadable example is Keneally's (writing in 2010)!

It *looks* as though he came upon "Indian buck" in the song and, puzzled, jumped to the conclusion that it meant "maize"; or that his source (not listed, so far as I can tell from Google Books) had jumped previously to that conclusion.

Of course, the song's writer, straining for a rhyme, might himself have invented "Indian buck" as an ad-hoc synonym for "Indian corn" or, in his own mind, "tough Indian venison taken from buck deer." Either would easily explain the dearth of other examples.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 May 18 - 12:51 PM

See: Thomas Kineally Three Famines: Starvation and Politics - ch14. (go up one page from the link)

"They saw there would be a need for further government intervention above the Indian maize Peel had brought...By January 1846 the first of the Indian corn from North America, the same that in the southern United States produced the food called hominy, began to reach the Irish ports...Unlike the corn grown in Ireland, the Indian corn was so hard to crack that it should rightly have been chopped in steel mills, but there were no such mills in Ireland. It was very difficult to cook and, if not properly done, could cause bowel disorders... <section on pamphlet on preparation - days of work!>...This difficulty of its preparation and the inappropriateness of the food to the necessity derived from a belief that would be evident in the Bengal famine as well: relief food must be made troublesome and unsavoury to ensure that people did not lightly have recourse to it. It was tested with the inmates of some of the workhouses, who refused to touch it...The maize was sold to the Irish at cost price at first, and later for a little more than that...The Irish had various names for the corn - min deirce, beggar's meal, Indian buck, or, as previously described, 'Peel's brimstone'.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Lighter
Date: 20 May 18 - 12:21 PM

The meaning of "Indian buck" came up earlier on the thread. A contributor suggested that maize was meant.

But the OED shows that "buck" was formerly a synonym for "buckwheat." It notes helpfully that while buckwheat cakes are eaten for breakfast in America, "The seed is in Europe used as food for horses, cattle, and poultry."

Perhaps the sense of the words is "I'd think myself lucky to be fed on animal fodder like buckwheat, as long as it was happening in Ireland (and not here)."

Just a guess, but I'm not at all sure of the relevance of "Indian." Did Ireland import buckwheat from India for use as fodder? (Reference to American Indians seems equally difficult to explain.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 18 - 11:25 AM

Was looking for a setting closer to the one I learnt by ear many yrs ago from a recording.
Come and sigh and hush me boys
And be mournful tonight,
And listen to poor paddys lamentation
Etc
Does that ring a bell with anyone?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 04:18 PM

Regarding some of the events behind the song --

"Return of the 69th (Irish) Regiment, N.Y.S.M. From the Seat of War", a painting by Louis Lang, has recently been restored and will be on display starting November 11 (Veteran's Day) at the New York Historical Society Museum when it reopens.

The New York Times says about it: "Huge, detailed and colorful, it comes from an era when paintings were expressive and descriptive, tools not only to evoke emotions, but also to do the very real work of simply documenting and recounting history. "

"Early on the morning of July 27, 1861, the Irish brigade of New York's 69th Regiment returned From the First Battle of Bull Run, landing by steamboat at what is now Battery Park"

"The painting captures a moment in Civil War history, when the Irish rose to defend the Union and were lauded as heroes. Their joyful homecoming, however, was followed by the 1863 Draft Riots, blamed largely on the Irish."

Another site, with images that show detail from the painting.

"Endurance and pluck", an article from the Irish Times.

The NY Historical Society's eMuseum notes on the painting

NY Historical Society page on the exhibit that will include the painting: "Making American Taste: Narrative Art for a New Democracy"

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Severn
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 10:19 AM

Some Civil War re-enactor campfire late night parody lines:

"...And to the women, I do say
Don't go sell for Mary Kay
For there'll be no making up
After the fighting."


"....General Meagher to us said,
'If you're sick, but short of dead,
Our physicians' staff will give you prompt attention.'
Now where my arm was, there's a leg,
And in my heart they've put a peg,
As any barbershop quartet will surely mention."

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,mike maclellan
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:17 AM

i'm soo happy to have stumbled upon this site with its wealth of info on this song.i only heard it once before on cbc radio and was floored by its beauty.actually, i had heard it before if indeed it's featured in "the gangs of new york",one of my favorite movies.i'm looking to find it online so i can learn the air.i'm just jonesin' to learn it on my guitar.
thanks in advance for the help.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 04:06 PM

Oh My! I always confuse the spellings of Immigrant and Emigrant. Of course the title of the song is "The Lament of the Irish EMIGRANT."

Mrs Price Blackwood, 1807-1867, (Selina Sheridan), author of "The Lament of the Irish Emigrant," was a granddaughter of R. B. Sheridan, the well-known author.
She married Commander Price Blackwood, afterwards Lord Dufferin and Clandeboy.
In addition to the "Irish Emigrant, she wrote other poems and the book, "By-Gone Hours," (also a song by the same name pub. by Chappell).

I apologise for my mis-spelling of 'EMIGRANT.'

Subject: Lyr. Add: THE LAMENT OF THE IRISH IMIGRANT
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 01:24 PM

Lyr. Add: The Lament of the Irish Imigrant (1843)
Words Mrs. Price Blackwood, Music Wm. R. Dempster

I'm sitting on the stile Mary,
Where we sat side by side,
On a bright May morning long ago,
When first you were my bride.
The corn was springing fresh and green,
And the lark sang loud and high,
And the red was on thy lip Mary
and the love light in your eye.

The place is little chang'd, Mary
The day is bright as then;
The lark's loud song is in my ear,
And the corn is green again!
But I miss the soft clasp of your hand,
And your breath warm on my cheek,
And I still keep list'ning for the words,
You never more may speak,
And I still keep list'ning for the words
You never more may speak.

'Tis but a step down yonder lane,
And the little church stands near,
The church where we were wed, Mary,
I see the spire from here:
But the graveyard lies between, Mary,
And my step might break your rest,
For I've laid you darling down to sleep,
With your baby on your breast.
For I've laid you darling down to sleep,
With your baby on your breast.

I'm very lonely now, Mary,
For the poor make no new friends,
But Oh! they love them better far,
The few our father sends!
And you were all I had, Mary,
My blessing and my pride;
There's nothing left to care for now,
Since my poor Mary died,
There's nothing left to care for now,
Since my poor Mary died.

Your's was the brave good heart, Mary,
That still kept hoping on,
When the trust in God had left my soul,
And my arm's young strength had gone;
There was comfort ever on your lip,
And the kind look on your brow;
I bless you for that same, Mary,
Though you can't hear me now.

I thank you for that patient smile,
When your heart was fit to break,
When the hunger pain was gnawing there,
And you hid it, for my sake.
I bless you for the pleasant word,
When your heart was sad and sore;
Oh I'm thankful you are gone, Mary,
Where grief can't reach you more.

I'm bidding you a long farewell,
My Mary, kind and true,
But I'll not forget you darling,
In the land I'm going to,
They say there's bread and work for all,
And the sun shines always there;
But I'll not forget old Ireland,
Were* it fifty times as fair.

And often in these grand old woods,
I'll sit and shut my eyes,
And my heart will travel back again,
To the place where Mary lies,
And I'll think I see the little stile,
Where we sat side by side;
And the springing corn, and the bright May morn,
When first you were my bride.

Sheet music first published in America in 1843 by Geo. P. Reed, Boston. Reprinted in 1863 by Henry Tolman & Co., Boston *where in the sheet music).
Poetry by the Hon. Mrs Price Blackwood (Irish poet) and music by William R. Dempster, Scottish singer and poet.
See American Memory, Greatest Hits 1820-1860 (Variety Music Cavalcade), 1843- The Lament of the Irish Emigrant: Greatest Hits
Sheet music; Historic American Sheet Music, 8 pp.: http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/sheetmusic/a/a50/a5014/a5014-2-72dpi.html

This lament about the Irish famine is far superior to revisions and parodies published later at the time of the American Civil War (see "Paddy's Lament" by John Ross Dix, song sheet, in post by Dicho, 27 Mar 02). Also see the quite different Canadian and American song, "By the Hush, Me Boys," also posted above, 22 Apr 04).

Wm. R. Dempster performed in America; his singing was praised by John Greenleaf Whittier. He also composed music to Burn's "A Man's a Man for A' That."

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 01:31 PM

The "Pat in America" I reproduced in a posting, above, from the Bodleian is the one linked by Malcolm Douglas in his last post. Sorry, I forgot to put the data- Harding B11 (2964), Taylor, Spitalfields, n. d.

Subject: Tune Add: THE HAPPY LAND OF CANAAN
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 10:33 PM

Thanks to Elizabeth Hummel on the Ballad-L list, we now know that Roisin White learned the song from Frank Harte; where he got it remains to be seen.

There is another edition of Pat in America at the Bodleian, which I missed earlier as it didn't specify a tune; it was printed by T. Taylor of Spitalfields, London, "between 1859 and 1899":

Pat in America

The Happy Land of Canaan spawned a whole series of songs, apparently dealing mainly with the American Civil War, and very much in the Minstrel Show style. The earliest certain date I've found is 1860, and both Canaan and Erin show up in the same time-frame (the latter only in Irish and English broadsides so far), so I wouldn't like to guess at which was the earlier; though Canaan seems perhaps to have the edge at the moment. Here is the tune for the set at the  Lester Levy Sheet Music Collection. It's recognisably a close relative of O J Abbott's tune, but a great deal faster.


X:2
T:The Happy Land of Canaan
C:"William A. Wray of the Original Campbell Minstrels."
B:Sheetmusic. Campbell Publication: Cincinnati: John Church, Jr., 1860.
N:Levy Sheet Music Collection: Box 024 Item 032
N:Roud 7705
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
M:2/4
K:F
F|F Hz/ c/ c/ c/ Hz/ A/|B3/4 A/4 F3/4 F/4 E3/2 c/|
w:White folks at-ten-tion a song I'll sing to you, 'Bout
c3/4 =B/4 c/ d/ _e G3/4 G/4|G/ F/ z z A/ B/|c/ c/ c/ c/ c c3/4 A/4|
w:matters and things that we are en-gag-ing, I will tell you in these times In a
B/ A/ G/ F/ (E/ C/) F/ G/|c c/ A/ G/ c/ B/ G/|
w:few and sim-ple rhymes,_ Caze I'm rite from de hap-py land of
F2 F2|"Chorus" F f f2|c c/ d/ _e3/2 E/|
w:Can-nan. Oh, oh, oh, ae. ae. ae, ah, the
E E/ E/ e/ e/ e/ d/|d/ c3/2 z A|c/ c/ c/ c/ c/ c/ A/ A/|
w:day ob de pen-ti-cost am com-ing, So neb-ber mind de wed-der, But get
B/ A/ G/ F/ E/ C/ F/ G/|A A/ F/ G/ c/ B/ G/|F2 F|]
w:ob-er doub-le troub-le, Caze I'm rite from de hap-py land of Can-nan.

Some of the Civil War buffs round here may be able to provide more information on Canaan and its various permutations. (There is a Trinidadian Spiritual Baptist song by the same name, but it appears to be entirely unrelated.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 01:16 PM

Hmm! Interesting. Thanks, again. Makes me grateful once more to the magic of the 'net and the helpful people on it.

Now, I've not heard Frank Harte's rendition, but Ian Robb and Margaret Christl, who should know better, don't quite have the same notes as in that transcription from the Penguin book. (And then, I always wonder how a book transcription compares to the original.) The midi in the DT is also slightly different from either of them. Can anyone tell, is that from Frank Harte's version?

Here's an interesting comment from another thread on the song (Chord Req: Paddy's Lamentation)

From: lamarca
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 11:42 AM

The song (and tune) were collected from O. J. Abbott in the Ottawa Valley by Edith Foulk [sic]. The tune he used has some really neat twists and intervals that Irish revival musicians have sort of smoothed out. One of the better renditions that's close to Mr. Abbott's is by Frank Harte, a capella. Ian Robb and Margaret Christl perform it on their Folk Legacy album, but make the tempo entirely too bouncy for my taste.

She may be making assumptions about provenance, though.

All in all, we've lots more and better information assembled than we started with!

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: Tune Add: BY THE HUSH, ME BOYS
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 11:44 AM

Here is O J Abbott's tune. If Frank Harte's set derives from it, then it has been noticeably modified.

X:1
T:By the Hush, Me Boys
S:O J Abbott, Ontario, August 1957.
Z:Edith Fowke
B:Edith Fowke, The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs, 1973, 26-27.
N:Roud 2314, Fowke TSSO 52
N:Appears on broadsides as Pat in America.
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
M:4/4
K:D
D D|D3/2 A/ A A A2 =F A|G3/2 =F/ E D =C2 D2|
w:Oh, it's by the hush, me boys, I'm sure that's to hold your noise,
D F A A A Hd2 A|B A3 z2 (FG)|
w:And lis-ten to poor Pad-dy's nar-ra-tion. I_
A A A B A2 A F|G E E D =C2 D E|
w:was by hun-ger pressed and in po-ver-ty dis-tressed, So I
=F/ F/ F2 D E3/2 A/ A G|E D3 z4|
w:took a thought I'd leave the I-rish na-tion.
"Chorus" D2 D2 d4|A G A B =c2 z E/ E/|
w:Here's you, boys, do take my ad-vice, To A-
D D D D D F A d|B A3 z2 F G|
w:me-ri-cay I'd have you not be com-ing. There is
A/ A3/2 B B A2 A3/2 A/|G/ G/ E E D =C2 D E|
w:no-thing here but war where the mur-der-ing can-nons roar, And I
=F F E D E A A G|E4 D4|]
w:wish I was at home in dear old Er-eein.

Subject: Lyr/Chords Add: BY THE HUSH, ME BOYS
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 08:40 PM

Here are the lyrics from Edith Fowke, editor, "The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs."

Lyr. Add: BY THE HUSH, ME BOYS

Oh, it's (Dm)by the hush, me boys,
I'm sure (C)that's to hold your noise,
And (D)listen to poor Paddy's nar(G)ra(A)tion.
I (D)was by hunger pressed and in (C)poverty distressed,
So I (Dm)took a thought I'd (Am)leave the Irish na(D)tion.

Chorus:
(D)Here's you, (D)boys, (F)do take my advice
(A)To A(D)mericay I'd (D)have you not be (G)com(A)ing.
There is (D)nothing here but war
where the (C)murdering cannons roar,
And I (Dm)wish I was at (A)home in dear old (A7)Er(D)eein.

Then I sold by horse and plow, me little pigs and cow,
And me little farm of land and I parted,
And me sweetheart Biddy Magee I'm afeared I'll never see,
For I left her that morning broken-hearted.

Then meself and a hundred more to Americay sailed o'er,
Our fortune to be making we were thinking.
When we landed in Yankee land, shoved a gun into our hand,
Saying, 'Paddy, you must go and fight for Lincoln.'

General Mahar to us said,'If you get shot or lose your head,
Every murdered soul of you will get a pension.'
In the war I lost me leg, all I've now is a wooden peg;
By my soul it is the truth to you I mention.

Now I think meself in luck to be fed upon Indian buck
In old Ireland, the country I delight in,
And with the devil I do say, 'Curse Americay,'
For I'm sure I've got enough of their hard fighting.

Fowke TSSO 52 (Folkways FM 4051)
"O. J. Abbott learned this song from Mrs. O'Malley, wife of an Ottawa Valley farmer for whom he worked back in the 1880s." Possibly learned imperfectly from a broadside of "Pat in America."

With music and chords, pp. 26-27, no. 6, in The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs, ed. Edith Fowke, 1973.

Subject: Lyr Add: PAT IN AMERICA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 08:04 PM

Linked by Malcolm Douglas, but since it seems to be the earliest, sometime in the last 40 years of the 19th c, it should be posted.

Lyr. Add: PAT IN AMERICA
Air- Happy Land of Erin

Arragh, bidenahust my boys,
Sure and that is hould your noise,
'Till you hear a simple Paddy's oration;
When at home I was distressed,
And with poverty oppressed,
So I took a thought to leave the Irish nation.

Chorus:
Arragh, do boys, do take my advice,
To America I'd have you not be coming,
For there is nothing here but war,
And the murdering cannon's roar,
Faith I wish I was at home in dear old Erin.

Then I sold my horse and cow,
Sucking pigs and breeding sow,
And with my little farm of land I parted,
And my sweetheart Ann M'Gee,
I'm afraid I'll never see,
For I left her that morning broken hearted.

Then myself and hundreds more,
To America sailed o'er,
My fortune to make I was thinking,
When I reached the Yankee land,
They put a gun into my hand,
Saying Paddy we must go and fight like winking.

General Meagher to us said,
If you're shot or lose your head,
Every man and mother's son will get a pension.
In their war I've lost my leg,
And all I've got's a wooden peg,
Believe me, boys, it's truth to you I mention.

Now I think myself in luck,
To be fed on Indian buck,
In old Ireland the country I delight in,
And to the devil I would say,
With this cursed America,
For truth I've had my full of fighting.

Two copies in the Bodleian, one prined in London by T. Taylor, the other without data.

In an earlier post, it was suggested that the song was written probably within ten years of the end of the war in 1865 because of the talk of pension. A great grandfather of mine received requests for help from former soldiers and their widows long after the war; records were often incomplete and affidavits were needed from former officers of units in which the soldiers served. Without checking dates on the old papers, some were still trying for payments in the 1880s.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 05:11 PM

Having looked further at Happy Land of Canaan, I'm sure that it's a variant of the same tune; though very different in flavour from Paddy's Lamentation. I have no idea which is the older form.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:23 PM

I'm unclear at the moment on the relationship between The Happy Land of Erin and The Happy Land of Canaan; the latter seems to be a Minstrel piece of the same period, and follows the same metre. Sheet music can be seen at Levy: whether or not it is essentially the same tune I'm not at all sure; nor do I have any real idea which was based on which. The fact that Kincaid identifies the Abbott tune as The Happy Land of Erin doesn't help much, as we don't know yet whether he knew it to be the same or had just assumed from the tune direction that it must be.

The Happy Land of Erin, incidentally, was the tune which Joe Wilson intended for his Sally Wheatley (he spelled it Thae Happy Land of Air-in), though it is usually sung these days to a different tune put to it by Alex Glasgow.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:08 PM

Well, that's right on it, Malcolm. Cool. Doesn't eliminate my hypothesis (on the 20th century peregrinations) but weakens it, eh?

~ Becky

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:01 PM

The song appeared on broadsides as Pat in America, and an edition can be found under that name at  Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads:

Pat in America ("Arragh, bidenahust my boys ..."). The tune prescribed was Happy Land of Erin, and there are examples of that song, too, at the Bodleian:

(A favourite song called) The happy land of Erin

Subject: By the Hush/Paddy's Lamentation distribution
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:49 PM

Well, I'm curious about the contemporary paths these things take (latter 20th century to present), as well as earlier in history. Back in the broadsheet days, a song might exist in tradition, then be put on a broadsheet and that version spread about more than others. Similarly, in the age of electronic media, a recorded version propagates much more rapidly than any other.

I'm wondering if the currently extant versions all arise from the one on the 1961 Canadian recording, that maybe reached Ireland via Frank Harte's recording of it (but I don't yet have the date of his Daybreak and a Candle-end). Is that too much of a stretch?

The "begats" exist, but actually tracing them is not always possible, liner notes being what they are. We do have the advantage of having a lot of those people still around though. :-)

On the older history, there's more in the notes for the 1997 or 1998 cd by Bruce Kincaid, THE IRISH VOLUNTEER, Songs Of The Irish Union Soldier 1861-65.

He says:
The air (melody) is called "Happy Land Of Erin," and the song is one of only two on the album ever previously recorded, therefore having withstood the test of time. This version may have been written post-war, when the government began cutting back on the veteran's pensions, as the lyric might suggest. I have come across another lyric, called "The Son Of Erin's Isle," which judging from the phrasing and the fact that some of passages are identical, is clearly a variant of the same song, yet decidedly more positive toward the Irish involvement in the war. Its chorus reads: "Cheer up, boys, the time will come again, When the sons of old Erin will be steering, And to the land will go o're, They call Columbia's shore, Where there's freedom for the jolly sons of Erin."

~ Becky

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:05 PM

Something seldom considered is that penny broadsides were sold on both sides of the Atlantic. Finding a song from Ireland or England in Canada or the States does not mean necessarily that the song was carried verbally by immigrants or sailors. It could have been learned from printed text, and adapted by the singer(s). A single copy could have gone through several hands until it was discarded.

The Bodley and other institutions have large collections, but these broadsides probably represent only a small fraction of the songs that were printed.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 02:59 PM

Thanks, Malcolm.

~ Becky

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 02:46 PM

O J Abbott was recorded by Edith Fowke in August 1957. His set of the song also appeared in The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk songs (1973). Roud lists it under number 2314, with at present only one other example, recorded by John Howson from Roisin White (Co Armagh 1991). I don't know where she got it, but the first line quoted suggests perhaps the same source as Frank Harte; Roisin has learned songs both from traditional and revival singers, so it may be from Irish tradition or it may not.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 01:12 PM

Of the various "versions" of By the Hush/Paddy's Lamentation (the variations mentioned are very minor, as far as I can see), are there any that come from tradition other than O.J. Abbott's version collected by Edith Fowke in the Ottawa Valley in Canada?

(The DT cites Ian Robb & Margaret Christl's note on their recording (The Barley Grain for Me, Folk-Legacy CD-62) that it wasn't found in the U.S. in this form, although as Dicho says above it looks like it evolved from a "Paddy's Lamentation" published in New York in 1864.)

Was it found in Ireland other than in recordings made after that (possibly starting with Frank Harte's, and when was that)?

The Canadian version was published on a recording in 1961 (Irish & British Songs of the Ottawa Valley on Folkways FM 4051; the print publication is Fowke, Edith. Traditional Singers and Songs from Ontario, Folklore Associates, Hatboro PA, 1965.

When was the original recording of Abbott made?

I see that only the DT is cited in the Ballad Index; that particular publication of Edith Fowkes's has not yet been indexed there.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,Jim Maloney
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 01:43 AM

I'm getting in late on this forum, but I just heard Mary Black's version on LiveIreland.com, and I thought I'd see what I could find on the web about it. I first heard the song about a year and a half ago, done by Gallowglass, a group from Las Cruces, New Mexico, of all places, and I found it very haunting. Then when I saw "The Gangs of New York," I recognized it in the soudtrack as Leo is watching the Irish men being loaded off a ship and having a gun shoved in their hands. Chilling. You can order the Callowglass version at: http://www.nastycactusmusic.com/gallowcd.htm
Their style ranges from haunting to hilarious, and no, I don't have any connection with them.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,whacker
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 08:18 PM

hope nobody minds me buttingin. i got here while tracking down the version by paul brady. i've here this song in a score of irish pubs and as they are usually noisy places it's lucky i already knew the words. but (and this relates to the irish in america thing) once in a pub in boston someone got up and sang a song called kilkelly, in seconds you could have heard a pin drop.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From:
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 08:38 PM

does anyone know whether there is any piano accompaniment for this song -- rather than guitar chords?

evelyn kerr

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Alice
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM

Just a note, my sound file of Paddy's Lamentation is now on themeadowlark.com where you don't have to sign up for anything or set cookies to hear it:

Click here

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From:
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 03:30 PM

Hi there! do you know the GULF STREAM version?? i'd like to have the exact lyrics. Thanks for your help!

Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: David Ingerson
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 06:00 PM

Thanks, Declan, for your added information and well-considered opinion (and for the gentle correction!). My spelling has always been attrocious atrotious atrocious whatever.

David

Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Declan
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 01:05 PM

Pavlina

If you go to the top of this thread to the list of linked threads and click on the first one, and follow the links from there you'll find a set of chords for this song.

Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,pavlina
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:48 PM

hiya
   please do you know anybody correct guittar chords for paddy's lamentation?i just addore this song,but i'm not able to find the right chords.thank you for help
                                                 pavlina (prague)

Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:25 PM

My nephew always one for a wee bit of sleggin`, dropped me in Sinead O`Connor`s new CD and knowing how an oul cynic like me is not overly fond of the O`Connor woman,but I have to houl my hands up and say, she sings "Paddys Lamentation" like an angel.
This CD although it sounds like it was recorded in the Aliwee Caves is good,so "Paddys Lamentation" by the Bishop O`Connor is well worth a listen. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: Declan
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:04 PM

David,

You've spelled Finbarr's name correctly (but not Willy Clancy's!)

Finbarr is a great collector of songs and I'd say his version would be as authentic as anyone elses. Variants of many traditional and folk songs exist and this looks like a perfectly good one to me. As far as I know Franke Harte, who's version would have been the source for many of the other recordings mentioned here, including May Black's, sing "The truth to you I mention", but I think the "Devil's own invention" is every bit as good (if not even a better) line in this context.

Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: David Ingerson
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 11:58 AM

I got the song from Finbarr Boyle (sp?) at the Willie Clancey Festival in 1985. I listened to my tape again and for sure he sings "And on my soul it is the Devil's own invention."

I rarely go back to my notes, transcription, or tape once I have memorized a song and made it my own (stylistically speaking). I don't know if it's laziness or narcissism, but I often find I've folk-processed it in some way. In this case I folk-processed my mondagreen! My transcription reads "Oh the Devil I would say got his [instead of "God's"] curse on Americay." But now I sing "got his claws in A..." I have no idea how that happened or where it came from. curious and curiouser.

Has anyone else heard the "Devil's invention" line? Or is that Finbarr's invention?

David

Subject: RE: Add: Paddy's Lamentation
From: David Ingerson
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 12:29 PM

A fine song it is. Now that I see the words for the first time I see I've included some mondagreens in my version. One of them I think I'll keep: Oh the devil I would say got his claws in Americay!

But my version, which I got--I'm at work now and depending totally on 15-year-old memory--from a guy who was some sort of archivist for the RTE folk collection (?)--I'll look up his name when I get home--has this line in it "...and all I've now is a wooden peg, and on my soul, it is the Devil's own invention." I can't see how it's a mondagreen. I'll listen to the tape again but in the meantime, anyone out there heard that line before? I rather like it, myself.

David