BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 09:18 PM

"The problem has always been one of "when you grab a tiger by the tail you'd better have a plan in place to deal with its claws".

I don't think Britain or the U.S., does, either. That should be quite obvious. If they had any idea what they were up against, they would have accomplished their mission in Iraq and been home by now. Now they are trying to tangle with Iran. When are they gonna figure it out that these guys do not play by Western rules? The best thing they can do is go home before its too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:24 PM

"And I would urge the armchair warrior types here at Mudcat to find something else to sputter about."

I shall certainly ask your permission in future.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:19 PM

Iran seems a place where there are a different factions vying for power (along with a democratically-minded opposition). It's possible that there is not a clear, unbroken line of authority from the president to whoever is holding the sailor-hostages. Hard to know if the president can snap his fingers and have the prisoners released, or what kind of games he has to play ...

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:08 PM

We really don't know much about the key elements in this incident. The Iranians were not in a hurry to release the American captives from our Embassy (US) back in 1979. They released them when it was in their own interests, when a new president took office. I'm not sure what the Iranians are looking for this time around, but they'll probably take their time coming to a decision.

The classic rescue is probably out of consideration, given the track record of rescue attempts in this area before.

I would urge patience, hard as that may be for the families involved. And I would urge the armchair warrior types here at Mudcat to find something else to sputter about.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:33 PM

GPS coordinates should be able to pinpoint the position of the British boat to within a few yards. As to the Iranians, I think they have fucked up. That was a bad move on their part, because if they don't release the Sailors/marines, they will pay a penalty they may not want to risk having to pay. I think they will find themselves outside the community of nations. Notice that even the EU, often fast to speak against the UK/US involvement in the mid-East were vocal in their condemnation of the Iranian move. Bullshit 'confessions' from people who have been captured are seen as such by most of the world. Iran is trying to 'pump up' its own citizens to have them support the present government while the sanctions tighten. And tighten they will. Meanwhile, no Iranian foreign government official will be safe anywhere but Iran, and even then, some of the Spec Ops folks may be given license to have the Iranian government see things differently. The best move the Iranians could make right now would be to release the prisoners. The men being held serve no useful purpose for Iran. They are, in fact, fast becoming a liability. The problem has always been one of "when you grab a tiger by the tail you'd better have a plan in place to deal with its claws". I don't think Iran does.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:56 PM

No answer that I've heard, McGrath. It seems either as if those pertinent facts are unclear, are being withheld, or that our various journalists are too lazy or dimwitted to find out.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,worker
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:39 PM

The Brits may have got what they deserve, but do the 15 concerned souls deserve what they are going through, and I shutter to think what they will go through as tiem goes on. We seem to forget the individual human element in these international incidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:34 PM

So far as the Lebanon parallel is concerned it is now clear that there was in fact a border violation by Israel which initiated the skirmish that set things off.
......................

None of the media coverage I've seen has appeared to address a key question. This is, when Britain says they were in Iraqi waters and Iran says they were in Iranian waters, is the disagreement about where they actually were physically, or is it about where the border actually lies? Has anyone else had any better luck in finding the answer to that?

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 05:12 PM

I think its called harassment, Barry. As far as I'm concerned, the Brits got what they deserved. A serious warning to back off. In fact, the Brits look like bufoons. They accomplished nothing and gave the Iranians more power. Why don't they realize that by hassling Iran, they are poking at a hornet's nest? Haven't they realized by now that Iranian strategists are no joke?

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:46 PM

"Suspected of smuggling cars"

What are the Brits doing boarding vessels in the Ras al-Beesha waterway? Were the cars bound for England? Competition in the auto industry must be getting fierce.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: bobad
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 10:52 AM

Hmmm....it seems that the Russians have a lot of information that no one else does. I wonder if it is reliable inside info which they are using to try and undermine the attack or if they have been fed this info to get Iran to reveal it's defensive capabilities as a prelude to attack.

Spy vs.spy.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 10:29 AM

Lets hope they get released BEFORE April 6th, which is the planned invasion date of Iraq nuclear facilities by the United States of America. Although the attacks are only to last 12 hours, the ramifications will last for centuries...not to mention the radioactivity from the facilites and tactical "mini nukes".


http://fr.rian.ru/world/20070319/62260006.html

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 09:56 AM

Kidnappings came day before UN resolution (GUARDIAN)

the arrests occurred just two days after Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, warned that the country could act "illegally" in response to western pressure.

"Until today, what we have done is in accordance with international regulations. But if they take illegal actions, we too can take illegal actions and will do so," Mr Khamenei said in his annual Iranian new year message.

The Iranians have been taking the sailors hostages. They don't care whether the act was illegal.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:46 AM

I think we should ALL get out of these countries and let them sort things out among themselves. This is a no win situation all the way round. We have spent to many lives rescuing other countries from stupidy, we must stop and let them do as they please within their own borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:43 AM

Three years ago, eight British servicemen were detained by Iran after a similar confrontation.

Former Marine Scott Fallon was one of those captured.

He told BBC Radio Five Live he was subjected to mock executions and accused of spying.

"They just wanted to know our mission - why we were there, why we were in Iran.

"We had no answers to these questions. Our mission was in Iraq, where we were... I suppose the same thing will be going on with these guys.

"You don't know if they're trying maybe to pin something else onto you. In our case it was being accused of spies in Iran, which was all new to us".

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:58 AM

In an article in Subhi Sadek, the Revolutionary Guard's weekly paper, Reza Faker, a writer believed to have close links to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, warned that Iran would strike back.

"We've got the ability to capture a nice bunch of blue-eyed blond-haired officers and feed them to our fighting cocks," he said. "Iran has enough people who can reach the heart of Europe and kidnap Americans and Israelis."

Times On Line 18th March.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:14 AM

The release of the Israelis was supposed to follow their withdrawal, but non of the agreements was adhered to by Hezbollah.
They seem to be unharmed? The Iranians have allowed no one to see them and will not even say wahere they are. We can only hope.
It would be difficult to steal many cars in an inflatable boat, and even the Cornwall would not have cargo space. The vessel boarded was suspected of smuggling cars, and was shown on film to have cars on its deck.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:41 AM

Luckily, the Brits were there at the request of Iraq. I don't think Iraq has any attention of bombing Iran. At least, lets hope not. I don't think Britain can do anything but negotiate a prisoner swap.

btw - Did anyone ever negotiate a prisoner swap when the Israelis were captured? Were they ever returned to Israel?

Lets hope Britain cares for its soldiers. So far they seem to be unharmed.

Is it true the Brits were stealing cars? Thats one of the stories being circulating. Unreal! Why were they boarding that ship, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 02:05 AM

"What country wouldn't? Didn't we see a similar situation on the border of Lebanon and Israel? I think its time to start negotiating for the return of prisoners on both sides. "

I hope the response won't be the same as Israels!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 11:04 PM

thats probably what it is - bargaining chip for the revolutionary guard
detained in IRaq...

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 08:46 PM

Glad you're out of it, Phot.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 08:37 PM

Since they were apparently in a sort of rubber dinghy too many bullets and everyone would have gone to the bottom.
.................
"Well, I believe a certain Macedonian started from Persia, did he not? Stopping only when all the known world had fallen?

No, he started from Macedonia, Amos. And that's more than 2000 years ago anyway.
.................
Tony Blair has now said that the sailors definitely weren't in Iranian waters when they were detained. And as he told us once, he is "a pretty straight sort of guy".

I think that definitely suggests that the Iranian claims about them being on the Iranian side of the border should not be dismissed out of hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:12 PM

Sorry, Peace. I thought, that because your post was directly after mine, you were replying to me. I shouldn't have made that assumption or replied to you in that manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:38 PM

"I think most of us know that, Peace. "

Speak for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:48 PM

You're probably right about that, Richard.

They saw the opportunity and took it.

What country wouldn't? Didn't we see a similar situation on the border of Lebanon and Israel? I think its time to start negotiating for the return of prisoners on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 11:40 AM

And yes, I'd forgotten about the Iranians detained in Iraq. That is obviously what it's about.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 11:39 AM

"unless your life, or other person who it is your duty to defend, is in immediate danger you may not open fire"

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:16 AM

And, more to the point, it was Wallace that drove the unnamed Macedonian out of the British Isles, taking several Persian princes as hostages, for which he was to be paid a king's ransom, but this was intercepted by one Mel "Prettyshanks" Gibson, enabling him to bankroll the movie ("The Massacre of Glencoe"), so the Persian princes were never released and in fact went on to become the infamous "parcel of rogues"; nevertheless, the Persians/Iranians have been smarting ever since and looking to even the score, and redeem their lost princes ...

At least, that's the way they taught it to us in school.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,Dillon
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 08:14 AM

Wallace was born in Ellerslie, near Paisly in Scotland. His father was a Malcolm Wallace and Wallace had two brothers, John and Malcolm and a sister. He was born around 1272. His early life is truthfully mostly unknown and most of what we think we know about his life is based on a oral poem by the minstrel Blind Harry, who told people of Wallace 200 (two hundred) years after Wallace was dead.

Wallace did kill the Sheriff of Lanark to avenge the killing of his girlfriend. Her name is thought to have been Marion Braidfute.She offered herself on a plate to him. The Sheriff (not Murron MacClannough). After he killed the sheriff (de Hazelrig) Wallace began to attract a following of loyal men who also wanted the English presence out of Scotland. He was a commoner or a minor noble, and never really had the support of the Major nobles, like Robert the Bruce,, Balliol or "Red" John Comyn. (all of English descent !). Wallace's name suggests his relatives were originally from Wales ! not an area of Scotland.

He did have some other minor nobles that fought with him, in particular a Sir Andrew de Moray (later called Murray), who was his loyal friend and right hand man. De Moray was skilled in warfare and was instrumental and vital to Wallace in his victory at Stirling bridge.


Wallace had a love affair with the princess of France, Isabella. Edward I, "Longshanks" was even more vicious than portrayed in the movie. His son, Edward II was indeed Gay, had a male lover, he was killed by his own men during a homosexual act.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 07:12 AM

"Well, I believe a certain Macedonian started from Persia, did he not? Stopping only when all the known world had fallen?"

That Macedonian was, in fact, a ... (wait for it!)... Macedonian! He conquered Persia before he set out to conquer the rest of the 'known world'. You can hardly blame the ancient Persians for that!

I know there's some tough concepts in there like, 'Macedonians and Persians were different ethnic groups' and 'the conquered are not responsible for the actions of their conquerors' - but keep at it - you'll get there!

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Phot
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:40 AM

Teribus, Get into the present time! NO person on this planet is "Expendible". You "suppose", you don't know!

Christ! You armchair experts make me sick!

Chris.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:22 AM

Phot,

Certainly in my day boarding officer was either a mid or a sub-lieutenant (least experienced officers on board i.e. most expendable should things go pear-shaped). That was a Navy with more than 200 ships in commission, not every ship carried a detachment of Royal Marines, I suppose now that the fleet has shrunk to present day levels they all do carry Marines to make up the numbers, I must remember to ask my son about that. Doesn't alter the fact Phot that as Bubblyrat and I stated it would not have happened in my day as the way we did it either the parent ship or the boat carrying the fire support group would have deterred the Iranian force.   

By the bye, junior officer by definition = Lt-Commander and below, senior officer by definition = Commander and above.

Promotion within the ranks of junior officer is automatic and rate of advancement is marked by seniority and time served.

Promotion to the ranks of senior officer by selection once in "the zone", your seniority determining when you enter the zone for promotion.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:11 AM

Seems to me that the armchair warriors should defer to someone who actually knows what he's talking about, and has been there! So his comments are based on experience, not theories or John Wayne type war movies.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Phot
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:58 AM

And what views on falsehood?!

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Phot
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:56 AM

Richard, your interpritation of RoE would wind up getting you tried for murder! As it would any member of HM Forces who decided to open up, just because someone on the other side is holding an AK47 or other weapon, unless your life, or other person who it is your duty to defend, is in immediate danger you may not open fire!

Try walking the streets of Basra for a day or two with a fully loaded weapon, kids and adults throwing bricks at you, protests going on, and the sound of gunfire in the distance, the little white pice of card with your RoE on it is what catagorcily states what you can and cannot do. Thankfully I never had to return fire while I was there, I did have to cock my weapon a couple of times and it is not a plesant thing to do, and the last thing in the world I would ever want to do is pull that trigger!

When you know what you talking about, speak, until then, wind your bloody neck in!


Chris

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:26 AM

"The Brits are there to enforce a UN Resolution, AND they are also there at the request of the government in Iraq."

I think most of us know that, Peace.

The trouble seems to be that the territorial boundaries are unclear.

I don't find that hard to believe considering Canada has the same problem with U.S. fisherman. Seems we also have a little territorial dispute with Denmark. It happens all the time in waterways.

Under the circumstances, I think Iran now has a few bargaining chips.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:56 AM

"While the Constitution of Iran entrusts the military with guarding Iran's territorial integrity and political independence, it gives the Revolutionary Guard [Pasdaran] the responsibility of guarding the Revolution itself. Established under a decree issued by Khomeini on May 5, 1979, the Pasdaran was intended to guard the Revolution and to assist the ruling clerics in the day-to-day enforcement of the government's Islamic codes and morality. The Revolution also needed to rely on a force of its own rather than borrowing the previous regime's tainted units.

By 1986, the Pasdaran consisted of 350,000 personnel organized in battalion-size units that operated either independently or with units of the regular armed forces. In 1986 the Pasdaran acquired small naval and air elements. By 1996 the ground and naval forces were reported to number 100,000 and 20,000, respectively. "


Hey, can these guys read German History...

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,Cmdr. Lloyd Bucher
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:06 AM

"it was always comforting to look over your shoulder and see
the big "Warboat" about a kilometer away with some nice big bloody guns on it. "

Yes, it certainly would have been comforting.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:02 AM

IRGC

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:52 AM

I see that the sailors and marines have now been moved to Tehran, which does not bode well for the future. As the US recently captured a few Iranian officials, who were obviously not in Iraq for the sightseeing, no doubt the Iranians will now try some sort of hostage bartering.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:35 AM

The Brits are there to enforce a UN Resolution, AND they are also there at the request of the government in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:31 AM

'Cornwall's commander, Commodore Nick Lambert, said he hoped the detention was a "simple mistake" stemming from the unclear border.'

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2979008&page=3

I don't think you should be allowed to make a "simple mistake" when there are ongoing negotiations regarding nuclear capabilities. I agree with John Gray in Oz, under the circumstances it is highly negligent.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:18 PM

Maybe he will be court-martialed. Or maybe there are mitigating circumstances that neither you nor I know about.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,John Gray in Oz
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:11 PM

Its irrelevant where the border is. The fact that the captain of the Cornwall had his ship out of eyeball range of his boarding parties meant that he couldn't give them close support. He should be court martialed for negligence.
Being involved with boarding parties in our Navy, during the VietNam
years, it was always comforting to look over your shoulder and see
the big "Warboat" about a kilometer away with some nice big bloody guns on it.

JG/FME

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:53 PM

Well, I believe a certain Macedonian started from Persia, did he not? Stopping only when all the known world had fallen?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:47 PM

'"Even if the UK forces were hopelessly outgunned, so what? Isn't fighting and dying what soldiers do - part of the job description?"'

George Patton, who seemed to know a bit about soldiering, said it wasn't a soldier's job to die for his country. It was a soldier's job to make some other poor bastard die for HIS country.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:34 PM

Ah! It was that - to me, unfamiliar - use of the word "form" that threw me off.

Good point!

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:18 PM

Iran hasn't got anywhere like the record of invading other countries that the USA and the UK has. "Form" as in horseracing, meaning "record".

Foreign wars carried out by Persia/Iran have been remarkably uncommon over the last 2000 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 07:53 PM

McGrath: What do you mean by this (literally): "But when it comes to invading other countries the Iranians do have a great deal less form"?

Subject: RE: BS: Sailors kidnapped by Revolutionary Guard
From: heric
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 07:45 PM

The anonymous guest who does not get deleted has caused some confusion. Phot didn't say "Even if they were guilty, the confession can not be true," That was Keith. And the implied objection to what Keith said is based on semantics, and taking words out of their context. He meant that the Iranian claim that confessions were made is a false claim, even if the Brits were over "the" line.

You're welcome. Carry on.