BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 02:12 PM

Thanks for that, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 01:07 PM

"Both he (the Prime Minister) and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire"

Meanwhile, in other news in Wales: The (Labour led) Senedd has called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and Israel.
The motion tabled in the Welsh parliament by Plaid Cymru urged for an end to "the appalling attacks on innocent civilians".
Welsh government ministers abstained from the vote - but Labour backbenchers were given a free vote on the motion and on an amendment tabled by the Conservatives.

From: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 12:51 PM

I was about to make the same point. This government has gone beyond despicable and sadly taken the opposition down to their level

Ah well. Just think how much worse things would have been with Corbyn in charge... :-S

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 06:48 AM

Sunak last night condemned the “violent, wholly unacceptable” scenes. He said both the far right and “Hamas sympathisers” had been responsible.

Liar. There were no violent scenes on a march of around half a million people (a bit of difference-splitting there). There was serious violence at the cenotaph, caused by a bunch of right-wing extremists. Out of that half-million, the police are looking for a handful of people who might have had pro-Hamas regalia. Sunak went on to condemn "antisemitic chants," by which I assume he meant "from the river to the sea", which is not an antisemitic chant. It was one of the largest marches ever in this country and it was entirely peaceful, but our scumbag prime minister couldn't resist making a false equivalence in order to apportion blame for the trouble in London yesterday. Both he and Starmer are refusing to call for a ceasefire. Make no bones about it: they are simply giving the nod to Israel to carry on with the killing. Despicable. There they both were this morning at the cenotaph, honouring the dead yet refusing to call for a halt to the killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 04:39 PM

Yes, DMcG. It seems most arrests were of right wing anti-protesters!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 04:27 PM

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 03:06 PM

Steve: Back to your lane.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 11:54 AM

It is looking like the pro-Palestine march in London has been very peaceful, despite the efforts of some anti-march protestors.

Now the remaining risk is what happens as people try to leave the march and head home.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Nov 23 - 05:56 AM

For some reason, the original third verse in "All things bright and beautiful" tends to not appear in modern hymnals. It went:

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them, high or lowly,
And ordered their estate

Oh, and for completeness, my father used to leave in the verse ending

The rushes by the river
We gather ev'ry day

.... partly from simple mischief, and partly to see how many of the congregation engaged their brains while singing hymns.

NB: No tents were harmed in the production of this comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 06:11 PM

From a Guardian letter responding to suggestions that the marches on Armistice weekend should be called off, or even banned:

...I shall be marching for a small boy, surrounded by siblings, standing in the ruins of his neighbourhood whose cry, “We’ve done nothing wrong”, has so much more power and honesty than UK politicians who seek to divide us with their claims that the marches are “hate-filled” or “disrespectful”.

I'm not big on hate, but I could so easily come to hate these sanctimonious, mealy-mouthed hypocrites who appear on our screens to criticise the marches straight after we've just watched the nightly routine of the horrors being visited on the civilians of Gaza who have done nothing wrong. The people who we commemorate on Armistice day died so that those of us who come after can enjoy democracy, our human rights and freedom of expression. A plague on the houses of those hypocrites.

And please don't tell me that I'm not criticising Hamas or being fair to Israel. I've done that on every possible occasion in these threads, but my current gaze is on the plight of the benighted civilians of Gaza. That little boy is just one of thousands of children living or dying or being maimed for over a month in conditions that no child should have to endure, and we seem to have decided to be no more than spectators.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 12:50 PM

Damn! Forgot to close the link, and it seems to bring up adverts anyway. Try searching for the latest opinion polls and Mark Park had a table of about 8 of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 12:48 PM


I have no idea who Mark Park is, but if this is accurate it suggests that, despite all the claims Labour is tearing itself apart over the IreIsrael-Palestine, it has little or no effect on their lead. These surveys seem to have taken place before Cummings and co were questioned by the covid enquiry.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 09:32 AM

Well read it and see. I'd put it at dead-centre Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 08:25 AM

I'm sure that if I read 'Labour List' I would find it leftie even if not extremely so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 23 - 05:28 AM

Sorry, Nigel - I don't know where the 'ell that 'l' went...:-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:49 PM

Try having a read of it, Nige.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:30 PM

"The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie,"

The title alone would suggest that it is 'leftie', although possibly not sufficiently so for those with more extreme views.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 11:46 AM

DIves and Lazarus
“Thou are none of mine, brother Lazarus,
Lying begging at my door,
No meat, no drink, will I give thee,
Nor bestow upon the poor.”


Some things don't change much.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:37 AM

I really should have just said what I really thought, rather than holding back just now

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:36 AM

Noticed that that piece of toxic proverbial had provided more proof the ALL tories and their supporters are racists, why else would it spout on about homeless people being mostly foreigners. did it personally check all their passports?

What is the betting that the tory **** are too tight fisted to buy homes out of their own pockets to give homeless people a place to live rent free until they get back on their feet, and then pay an affordable rent.

Where are the high streets with the rows and rows of tents? I haven't seen any, or is it referring to camp sites? Maybe it believes that homeless people should report for just be wiped of the face of the earth so that it doesn't have to look at the problem its party and the pathetic excuse for human skin that votes for it have created just because it lowers the value of their properties.

There is no room for neo-n****m in my society, so as far as I am concern, every tory voter should be deported to some tin pot, extreme right dictatorship with appalling human rights where they can live happily amongst their own kind, and we can get back to being a decent, caring welcoming society.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 06:34 AM

The only reason I will (extremely reluctantly) hope for at least two Labour terms after the next election is that Braverman is not unlikely to be the next Tory leader. The woman is the nearest thing to being a true fascist we have in Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 06:10 AM

An excellent poem from Paul Cookson, on FB today. Says it all…

”Daily poem - Suella Braverman, once again the inspiration ... unfortunately

LIFESTYLE CHOICE

I could have escaped to the country
I could have lived by the sea
I could have chosen anywhere
But this is the place for me
Handy for all amenities
In that I can rejoice
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

Yes to the freezing nights
Yes to the driving rain
And if I had to choose once more
I’d choose the same again
Yes to constant hunger
Cold and always moist
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

I love my cardboard notice
Asking for your charity
I love the fact I can rely
On other people’s sympathy
These things you don’t understand
While stuck in your Rolls Royce
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

This is not a style of life
That I would recommend
To my worst enemy
Never mind a friend
But you hear what you want to hear
You cannot hear my voice
This tent in a high street doorway
That’s my lifestyle choice

Your ignorance – deliberate
Like the heartless views you voiced
Indicative of where you are
And your lifestyle choice

Poem 1195
Sunday 5th November 2023”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 23 - 07:03 PM

"David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary who visited the region last week, said that the “number of dead Palestinian civilians and children is shocking” as he called on Israel to take further steps to stop a “humanitarian catastrophe”. He said that Israel “must uphold international law” and also warned of violence in the West Bank."

Talk about soft words. Why couldn't he say that Israel has been breaching international law for four weeks. Yes it's shocking. Yeah, David, how did we ever know that before you told us. Thanks for telling us what we already know in spades, David. Yes Israel should uphold international law. Thing is, Israel never does. But Lammy, a member of Labour Friends of Israel (aka a man in the pocket of the pro-Israel lobby) can't criticise Israel. His party leader will make sure of that. In a word, bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 03:30 PM

Starmer is wriggling. He's trying to shut up the critics in his party by "criticising" Israel, a little bit. But still no ceasefire call. No principles on show here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM

The lame-duck excuse I keep hearing from people like Starmer (and lots of Israeli big-shots and western leaders) is that we shouldn't have a ceasefire because we know that bastards like Hamas wouldn't stick to it anyway. Well blow me down. No giving peace a chance round 'ere, then...

The reason Starmer and Sunak won't call for a ceasefire has nothing to do with that. They are both in the pockets of the US, and the reason the US won't call for a ceasefire is that it's in the pocket of Israel and the pro-Israel lobby.

Call a ceasefire. Release all the hostages. Call off the collective punishment. Release the 5000 Palestinians who are in jail in Israel, a thousand or more held without charge, women, children, the lot. Then sit down and talk about it. If Paisley and McGuinness could do it, anyone can do it. I'm bloody sick of seeing the same outrages on me telly every night.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 07:58 AM

With the Covid enquiry well on the way, and the admission from political advisors that the government was so ill prepared, the least the pandemic could have done is waited until we had a competent government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 23 - 10:49 AM

The daily newsletter from Labour List, not exactly known for being leftie, is exceptionally critical of Starmer's stance on Gaza-Israel. I suppose the conflict could have receded into the background by the next election, but, if it hasn't, and he maintains his one-sided stance on the issue, he could lose an awful lot of Muslim votes, many of them up in northern towns which he has to win or win back. He's also at odds with the SNP and large numbers of Labour MPs as well as the mayors of London and Manchester. I note that Starmer is a member of Labour Friends of Israel, along with people such as Yvette Cooper, the disreputable Margaret Hodge, David Lammy, Wes Streeting and Emily Thornberry. And that 76% of the electorate want a ceasefire. I know it's not just about votes, but can we have at least just a bit of principle and humanity from a party that likes to think it's socialist?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 23 - 03:57 PM

I see that Bozzer has joined GB news

Need I say more?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 23 - 06:51 AM

A below-the-line comment about Starmer in the Guardian:

"If you say Israel 'has the right' to withhold power and water from Gaza then, a few days later, following a consequent outcry, say ‘it is not and never has been my view that Israel had the right to cut off water, food, fuel or medicines,’ you are revealing three things about yourself.

You have appalling judgement, you are dishonest and you are a reactive, rather than a proactive, leader."

I couldn't agree more. Starmer is the wrong leader for Labour and he'd be the wrong leader for this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 25 Oct 23 - 10:49 AM

> The first sentence warns you cannot read too much into a single by
> election result. Then every following sentence makes exactly that
> assumption.

That's straight out of the "I'm not an unreasonable person but" book.* I heard many years ago that the trick is to read up to the "but", and take the inverse of what goes before it as the speaker's POV; the rest of the statement can then optionally be disregarded as too obvious to need to be stated.

* It's a standard rhetorical technique. Fifty bonus points for correctly naming it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 05:19 PM

He wouldn't let his ministers stand on health workers' picket lines, he told them that they mustn't join pro-Palestine demonstrations, he refused to back the nurses' and junior doctors' fight for fair pay. Now he refuses to criticise even the most egregious of Israel's outrages and he says they have every right to deny food and water to two million civilians, a war crime. That's not Labour and it's definitely not me. I've held my nose over several other of his swerves to the right, but I've had enough now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 23 - 05:08 PM

In Sir Keith's own words, Steve. Talking about the by-election

"I know there are people who probably voted Tory in the past who vote for a changed Labour Party this time because they despair at the state of their own party"

Code for the Labour Party has become the Party that pissed off tories vote for :-( You are better off out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 12:00 PM

I didn't manage to read all that as it wouldn't format for me, but I got the drift. Again, the platitudes flow freely but there is no condemnation of the horrors inflicted by Israel, just that by Hamas. Inexcusable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 11:08 AM

Starmer's letter to the councillors who have or are thinking of resigning over this

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 10:48 AM

You're not leaving Labour Steve. I am not sure what it is but it sure ain't the party we joined!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 23 - 08:50 AM

Starmer's pusillanimous and unconditional support for Israel and his apparent lack of sympathy or at least his silence, for the plight of millions in Gaza is too much for me. The failure of western leaders to condemn and sanction the Israeli regime will give Netanyahu succour and they will be complicit in the future slaughter of civilians in Gaza. It's the last straw and I'm leaving the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 23 - 08:12 PM

We have a prime minister and a leader of the opposition who are both one hundred percent blinkered about the Israel/Hamas conflict. I have heard barely a single word of sympathy for the wretched and desperate people of Gaza from either of them. It's all the fault of Hamas, Israel has the right to defend itself, blah blah. It's not Hamas that has cut off water, food and fuel to the outdoor prison which is Gaza. It's not Hamas that has bombed hospitals and schools. It's not Hamas that has killed many hundreds of children and it's not Hamas that has created a million refugees. You don't need to do any of those things to unarmed civilians in order to "defend yourself." Sunak and Starmer are in the pockets of the pro-Israel lobby and they are frightened to death of saying anything that sounds even remotely like a glimmer of criticism of the Israeli regime. Starmer wouldn't even say that it's OK to sport a Palestinian flag in the street, a straight lift from the Suella Braverman near-fascist creed. That was in Starmer's interview with Nick Ferrari on LBC and I could hardly believe the pusillanimous self-deception I was hearing from the bloke who's probably going to be the next PM. Pathetic and totally unfair.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Oct 23 - 10:10 AM

i was a corbyn supporter but it was horrible canvassing for him in the last election in workington. i voted for starmer as leader - same policies (up the '19 manifesto!) plus electability. i've left the party (again - 3rd time. or maybe 4th) i;m now reduced to longing to see tory tears on election night and a hope for some decent policies. looks like we won't have a strong snp government as an inspiration either .all depressing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 23 - 01:23 PM

Something a bit intriguing happening. I can post messages to mudcat from my phone, but not from my PC. Obviously something antiviral is blocking me...

Ehat I was going to say is the Labour Policy document makes interesting reading as far as setting the direction is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 23 - 02:23 PM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 23 - 02:13 PM

The is a ry irritating form of punditry about. The first sentence warns you cannot read too much into a single by election result. Then every following sentence makes exactly that assumption.

What I would say is the result is morale-boosting for Labour and morale-sapping for the SNP. I don't think I would go much further.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 23 - 06:16 PM

This SNP/Labour thang. Good win, very impressive, etc. But...

Is this a classic case of incumbents losing and challengers indulging in hubris?

Tories: imploded for years, laughing stock, etc: lose their deposit.

SNP: scandal over MP that had held the seat, broke covid law big-time, etc. Finance scandal over Nicola Sturgeon. No progress regarding independence push. Low turnout. Etc.

Pundits are saying that this means Labour could get 40 Scottish seats. My arse. Not a chance. This was a by-election, a low-turnout protest vote. Blew the doors off, eh? More like found the wrong car key and had to go back in the house to look for the right one.

Never a truer word was spoken: governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them. There's a lot of work to do. I'm still a Labour Party member, by the way. And there's a whole bunch of antisemitism inconvenience coming up that will hardly make the party top-dogs look good...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Captain Swing
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 03:44 PM

I remember going on two school visits aged 15 in 5th yr (Y11 in today's money). One was to the Lincolnshire Show and the other was to see a production of Hamlet. We managed to get served with pints of brown ale on both occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 02:27 PM

Mrs. Backwoodsperson and I had exactly that conversation, and we both wondered if it’s the first step towards ID Cards?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 12:35 PM

If you are raiaing the legal age to buy cigarettes one year per year then in say 15 years you will need to be challenging people to prove they are 30 and not 29.

I don't see how you are going to do that without some form of national ID system.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 23 - 04:10 AM

This one tickles me. Just shows how out of touch they are with the North

Tories promise Manchester a tram extension that already exists!

My son #1, daughter in law #2 and grandson #2 were there protesting on Sunday. Proud of them all! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 10:25 AM

That indeed was it, Nigel. Underage kids have never had real issues getting their hands on fags or booze. I did both with gay abandon in my misspent yoof. I bought my first pint in a pub at 16 and I was wearing my full school uniform! It cost me 1s 11d by the way. In those days you could get 20 Players No 10 for half a crown. We'd buy a Watney's Party Four, take it down the park and bust the can open with a screwdriver. It was bloody 'orrible, flat as a witch's t*t.   Pour it straight down the lav and cut out the middle man...

The Tory cigarette thing and the ban-phones-in-schools thing are "good things" but they are deliberate petty sideshows. Typical Tory conference bullshit. I'm sure we'll see the same next week.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 09:26 AM

Steve: If you're 14 today you'll never legally be able to buy fags. Spot the hidden caveat in that sentence.
I'm guessing the 'caveat' you mean is that word 'legally'.

I'd rather spot the inaccuracy. If you're 14 now, but haven't yet had a birthday this year you were born before 1 Jan 2009, so can continue to buy cigarettes (once you're 18). The new law doesn't catch you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 23 - 09:04 AM

If you're 14 today you'll never legally be able to buy fags. Spot the hidden caveat in that sentence. And the Tories have overseen a cynical industry grooming kids to go vape-crazy. Never mind. All that saved HS2 money ("every penny of it") will be used to improve little bits of railways all over the place instead. Yeah, right, along with those 40 new hospitals.

If HS2 had gone ahead, Labour would have carried on with it. Now that it's gone, Labour won't carry on with it. Be prepared for a massive Tory defeat, then nothing changes, then Cruella for PM in five years' time. Weeee!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 23 - 06:37 AM

HS2 - I wonder what the government are using it to distract us from? The vast majority of UK citizens will never travel on it and won’t be affected by it no matter where it runs to.
Birmingham? Manchester? Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn (and I’d stake my pension that most UK residents don’t either)!