BS: Obama is a socialist

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Musket
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:40 PM

Wow, listening from this side of the pond, I keep forgetting how we are separated by a common language. (Not to mention technology, I filled up my hire car with fuel in California earlier this year and the machine wouldn't accept my payment until I gave it my zip code. We don't have zip codes and the UK post code just didn't work.)

Sorry,

Talking about Obama and socialists.

We have socialists too. They mean something different here though. Here, it means politician (or anybody expressing a political view I guess) who who thinks society needs an even break, not just big business.

I take it socialist means something else in USA, as it appears to be a dirty word. A bit like the dirty words the rest of the world is using because of sub prime in the states leading to us all catching a cold. if only socialists were in charge eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:26 PM

Looks like a lot of very smart people are putting their money on the Senator from Illinois this year, huh?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:45 PM

The corporate world buys both parties, because it expects them both to faithfully do its bidding once they are in office....and they do. Whichever party the corporate world regards as more electable in any given election, that is the one they will give more money to, I would think. They are buying up future cooperation when they do so.

Obviously, they would rather bet on the horse that they think is going to win. But if they spread their bets around some, then they've got it covered either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:02 PM

Obama Donors:

University of California$909,283
Goldman Sachs                  $874,207
Harvard University         $717,230
Microsoft Corp                  $714,108
Google Inc                  $701,099
JPMorgan Chase & Co         $581,460
Citigroup Inc                  $581,216
National Amusements Inc $543,859
Time Warner                  $508,148
Sidley Austin LLP         $492,445
Stanford University         $481,199
Skadden, Arps et al         $473,424
Wilmerhale Llp                  $466,679
UBS AG                           $454,795
Latham & Watkins         $426,924
Columbia University         $426,516
Morgan Stanley                  $425,102
IBM Corp                  $415,196
University of Chicago         $414,555
US Government                  $400,819

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM

Big Pharma donations:

Obama: $848,00
Clinton: $639,429
Romney: $410,411
McCain: $347,375

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 12:40 PM

Nobody bothers to untangle spaghetti. The way to deal with it is you just stick in a fork, twist it round, and put it in your mouth. Nothing too complicated about that...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 12:21 PM

In his campaign, Obama says he wants to crack down on overseas tax havens and stop allowing hedge funds to pay a 15 percent capital gains rate on most income, rather than the 35 percent income tax rate..

Obama's billionaire finance chair, Penny Pritzker' family fortune:

"I call it taking a bowl of spaghetti and untangling it," Thomas says. "We don't know of anyone who's undertaken something with the complexity of this."

The breakup is well under way. Trott's Goldman Sachs Capital Partners, the private equity arm of Goldman Sachs, plus an investment firm affiliated with Wal-Mart Stores Inc. Chairman Rob Walton, has spent $1.1 billion for a minority stake in Global Hyatt. In total, Hyatt may be worth $11 billion, says Ted Mandingo, owner of an Elmhurst, Illinois-based hotel consulting firm.

Selling Assets

The Pritzkers sold chewing tobacco maker Conwood Co. to Reynolds American Inc. for $3.5 billion in 2006. That year, they tried and failed to shed Triton Container International Ltd., a shipping container company, for as much as $2.5 billion. And Penny says they've sold a significant portion of a $5 billion real estate portfolio that she developed.

The Pritzkers own 80 percent of a partnership that holds a 15.6 percent stake in Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. The family portion was worth $719 million on Aug. 19. The Pritzkers list eight casinos on company Web sites. The casino licenses alone are worth $500 million each, says John Kindt, a University of Illinois business professor.

Next year, the family will open a Grand Hyatt hotel and casino with 2,973 rooms just north of the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas.

In six years, by the time Buffett buys the other 40 percent of Marmon, he'll have spent $10 billion-$11 billion to acquire that company, Trott says.

Buffett says he was so confident in the financial analysis that the Pritzkers developed for Marmon that he decided during a flight from San Francisco to Omaha to buy it.

"It came with a price attached,'' Buffett says. "In the end, we could meet it."

All told, the Pritzker empire is worth as much as $40 billion, a person familiar with the situation estimates.

The family's offshore accounts prevent anyone from getting a complete picture of their wealth. In 1986, when Abram Pritzker died, his heirs claimed an estate worth $25,000. The Internal Revenue Service sued to collect $53 million in back taxes. The two sides settled in 1994 for $9.5 million, according to U.S. Tax Court records.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 12:19 PM

"corporations that buy parties, candidates and presidents"
Chris Dodd Donors: $11,106,498

Citigroup Inc        $314,194
United Technologies        $262,700
SAC Capital Partners        $242,900
American International Group        $223,478
Royal Bank of Scotland        $213,600
St Paul Travelers Companies        $201,000
Bear Stearns        $198,700
Goldman Sachs        $175,600
Credit Suisse Group        $154,550
Morgan Stanley        $154,300
Merrill Lynch        $131,950
JPMorgan Chase & Co        $129,650
Lehman Brothers        $122,300
KPMG LLP        $113,100
General Electric        $110,650
Hartford Financial Services        $110,450
UBS AG        $108,500
Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu        $108,000
The Hartford        $94,350
Bank of America        $91,300

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:34 AM

CNN's Cooper said McCain opposes rolling back Bush tax cuts "which Democrats say favor the rich" - but McCain previously said the same thing

Summary: CNN's Anderson Cooper stated: "On taxes, Senator McCain pledges not to roll back the Bush tax cuts, which Democrats say favor the rich." In fact, it is not just Democrats who say that the Bush tax cuts favor the rich. McCain himself made the same claim in 2001, in explaining his opposition to the tax cuts, a fact that Cooper did not mention.

During the October 27 edition of CNN's Anderson Cooper 360, Cooper stated: "On taxes, Senator [John] McCain pledges not to roll back the Bush tax cuts, which Democrats say favor the rich." However, Cooper did not note that McCain himself, in explaining his then-opposition to the Bush tax cuts, also said they disproportionately benefitted the rich. While McCain now supports making the tax cuts permanent, in 2001 and 2003, he voted against them. As Media Matters for America has documented, in 2001, McCain explained his vote by stating: "I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us, at the expense of middle class Americans who most need tax relief." Furthermore, on the April 11, 2004, edition of NBC's Meet the Press, McCain reaffirmed his rationale for originally opposing the Bust tax cuts by stating, "I voted against the tax cuts because of the disproportionate amount that went to the wealthy Americans." *


In May 2001, McCain voted against the final version of Bush's initial $1.35 trillion tax-cut package. In a floor statement explaining his opposition, McCain said that while he supported an earlier version of the bill "that provided more tax relief to middle income Americans," he could not "in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us, at the expense of middle class Americans who most need tax relief." In 2003, McCain voted against legislation to accelerate the tax reductions enacted in the 2001 bill and to cut dividends and capital-gains taxes. *


During the October 23 edition of Fox News' Studio B, general assignment reporter Steve Brown accused Sen. Barack Obama of "leav[ing] out" the purported reason Sen. John McCain initially opposed the Bush tax cuts, which Brown claimed was "because they didn't match up with corresponding cuts coming out of the budget." In fact, as Media Matters for America has repeatedly documented, when McCain voted against the tax cuts in 2001, the reason he gave in his floor statement was not that they were not accompanied by spending cuts; rather, McCain stated, "I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us, at the expense of middle class Americans who most need tax relief." Indeed, during the February 3 edition of Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday, host Chris Wallace told McCain: "[Y]ou've been saying, 'Well, the reason was because they didn't have spending cuts along with it.' Senator, we checked your speech before the final vote in the 2001 tax cut. ... You never once mentioned the fact that there weren't spending cuts."

On the April 11, 2004, edition of NBC's Meet the Press, McCain reaffirmed his rationale for originally opposing the Bust tax cuts, stating: "I voted against the tax cuts because of the disproportionate amount that went to the wealthy Americans. I would clearly support not extending those tax cuts in order to help address the deficit. But the middle-income tax credits, the families, the child tax credits, the marriage tax credits, all of those I would keep." As Media Matters has noted, McCain has since reversed his position on the tax cuts -- he now supports their permanent extension. *

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:23 AM

Study: Bush Tax Cuts Favor Wealthy

(CBS/AP) President Bush's tax cuts since 2001 have shifted more of the tax burden from the nation's rich to middle-class families, according to a study released Friday by the Congressional Budget Office.

The tax rate declined across all income levels — but more so in the top brackets, the report said.

The study found that the effective tax rate for the top 1 percent of taxpayers dropped from 33 percent in 2001 to 26.7 percent this year, a decline of 19 percent. The middle 20 percent of taxpayers saw a decline of 4 percent.

The study, requested by congressional Democrats in May, quickly provided fodder for the presidential campaign over the fairness of more than $1 trillion in tax cuts Mr. Bush has pushed through Congress since taking office.

"Over the last four years, the burden of taxes has shifted from the wealthy to the middle class," Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry said at a campaign event in Springfield, Oregon. "The middle class is paying more taxes."

The White House defended Mr. Bush's tax cuts, saying those in lower- and middle-income brackets also benefited.

People in the top 20 percent of incomes, averaging $182,700 a year, saw their share of federal taxes decline from 65.3 percent of total payments in 2001 to 63.5 percent this year, according to the study by congressional budget analysts.

In contrast, middle-class taxpayers — with incomes ranging from $51,500 to $75,600 — bear a greater tax burden. Those making an average of $75,600 had the biggest jump in their share of taxes, from 18.5 percent of all payments in 2001 to 19.5 percent this year.

"George W. Bush keeps trying to mislead Americans into thinking we're turning the corner, but truth is that he is turning his back on middle-class families," Kerry spokesman Phil Singer said. "The Bush policies are exacerbating the squeeze that working families have been feeling for the last four years."

Bush-Cheney campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said, "Because of President Bush's policies every American pays less in taxes today than they did before he became president...John Kerry has promised to raise taxes during the campaign. That is the clear choice Americans will have in the fall elections."

The study is based on figures in 2001 and assumes no changes in wealth distribution from increases in income, dividends or capital gains. *

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Mike M
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:15 AM

Ask Obama which way middle income earners taxes will go when he allows the Bush tax cuts to expire in 2010? Well, Obama won't technically be raising THOSE taxes then will he? Won't matter, his policy to BANKRUPT the coal industry and shut off 50% of our electricity in the process with this FRAUD AGW nonsense will have done so much damage by then that we'll all have broken backs trying to grow potatoes in our back yards ...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:53 AM

Everyone wants freedom, Sawzaw...they want their own form of it. To the Cubans and Vietnamese, freedom meant self-government of their own lands, free of domination by foreign governments and foreign business interests. It meant ending colonialism, kicking out the Mafia and the foreign bosses and the CIA. It meant self-rule.

Got it? You don't get it because you weren't born a Third Worlder in a land being ruthlessly exploited by rich American (or French) interests.

Your freedom in your own land has no bearing on the matter whatsoever, because it is not extended to the suffering populations in other lands which your business people rape and exploit for their profits. Your country doesn't promote freedom outside its own borders. It promotes exploitation, war, slaughter, torture, and corruption...all for the sake of corporate profit.

And even in your own land your freedoms are being taken away, bit by bit. The Patriot Act was a big step in taking them away.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:11 AM

Lo and behold. terrorism raises its ugly head behind our own lines. What a surprise.

Say, Sawz, did you know McCain contributed to the Contras?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:35 AM

In February 1988, the Washington Post reported that McCain personally (and relatively "recently") gave the Contras $400.

No one can doubt that acts of terror were committed by the Contras. Human Rights Watch concluded in 1989 that "the Contras were major and systematic violators of the most basic standards of the laws of armed conflict, including by launching indiscriminate attacks on civilians, selectively murdering non-combatants, and mistreating prisoners." Human Rights Watch also criticized acts of terror by the Sandinista government, but called the Contras "a force that has shown itself incapable of operating without consistently committing gross abuses in violation of the laws of war."

Here are some eyewitness reports of the terrorism committed by the Contras:

They took out their knives and stuck them under his fingernails. After they took his fingernails off, then they broke his elbows. Afterwards they gouged out his eyes. Then they took their bayonets and made all sorts of slices in his skin all around his chest, arms, and legs. They then took his hair off and the skin of his scalp. When they saw there was nothing left to do with him, they threw gasoline on him and burned him. The next day they started the same thing with a 13 year old girl. They did more or less the same, but they did other things to her too. First, she was utilized, raped by all the officers. They stripped her and threw her in a small room, they went in one by one. Afterwards they took her out tied and blindfolded. Then they began the same mutilating, pulling her fingernails out and cutting off her fingers, breaking her arms, gouging out her eyes and all they did to the other fellow. They cut her legs and stuck an iron rod into her womb.

Rosa had her breasts cut off. Then they cut into her chest and took out her heart. The men had their arms broken and their testicles cut off and their eyes poked out. They were then killed by slitting their throats and pulling the tongue out through the slit.


A congressional committee confirmed at the time that the Contras "raped, tortured and killed unarmed civilians, including children" and that "groups of civilians, including pregnant women and children were burned, dismembered, blinded and beheaded."

Harold Pinter recalled the testimony of Father John Metcalf:

I am in charge of a parish in the north of Nicaragua. My parishioners built a school, a health centre, a cultural centre. We have lived in peace. A few months ago a Contra force attacked the parish. They destroyed everything: the school, the health centre, the cultural centre. They raped nurses and teachers, slaughtered doctors, in the most brutal manner. They behaved like savages. Please demand that the US government withdraw its support from this shocking terrorist activity.


And no one can doubt that McCain knew about these acts of terror when he was publicly funding them. On February 10, 1987, the New York Times noted that a 170-page report by Americas Watch determined about the Contras, "They still engage in selective but systematic killing of persons they perceive as representing the Government, in indiscriminate attacks against civilians or in disregard for their safety, and in outrages against the personal dignity of prisoners. The Contras also engage in widespread kidnapping of civilians, apparently for purposes of recruitment as well as intimidation." The report noted, "The escalating brutality of Contra practices leads Americas Watch to conclude that disregard for the rights of civilians has become a de facto policy of the Contra forces."

McCain also must have known that the Contras were engaged in drug smuggling while he was handing them money. On August 5, 1987, the CIA Central American Task Force chief testified before the Iran-Contra Committee about the Contra drug trafficking: "It is not a couple of people. It is a lot of people."(pdf, p. 38)

In addition to his personal support for the Contras, McCain has a supporter who is far more of a terrorist supporter than Bill Ayers. His name is Oliver North. Ayers was never convicted for any crime, and there's no evidence he ever killed anyone. North, by Contrast, was convicted (he got away with it because his testimony to Congress provided him with immunity).

There can be no doubt about North's connection to terrorism. Under the direction of North, the US covertly sold $48 million in battlefield missiles and other weapons to Iran, even though Iran was classified by the US government as a sponsor of international terrorism. North then illegally used some of this money to help finance the Contras.

So what is the McCain campaign's position toward this terrorist supporter? Have they denounced his views? No, McCain's own campaign website promotes the endorsement of him by North. McCain also supported North's 1994 campaign for the US Senate in Virginia.

The Washington Post blog did ask the McCain campaign, "Is McCain pleased to receive North's endorsement, given the fact that the failed GOP senatorial candidate was convicted in 1989 of shredding documents, accepting an illegal gratuity and aiding and abetting in the obstruction of Congress?" The McCain campaign declined to criticize North or remove their link to his endorsement: "We'll let the comments in the release stand," wrote spokeswoman Jill Hazelbaker in an e-mail.

Obviously, McCain has no regrets about supporting the Contras. McCain named Otto Reich as his adviser on Latin American issues, even though Reich was involved in the Iran-Contra scandal. In the mid-1980s, Reich ran the U.S. Office of Public Diplomacy and illegally coordinated with the CIA to run a "White Propaganda" campaign planting bogus op-eds written by his speechwriters in newspapers. In 1987, the Republican Comptroller-General formally found that Reich had broken the law. As ambassador to Venezuela, Reich arranged the release and asylum of Cuban-American terrorist Orlando Bosch, who had planted a bomb on a Cuban airliner in 1976, killing all 73 people on board. *

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:21 AM

Ah, what the hell...


McCain Transition Chief Aided Saddam In Lobbying Effort

William Timmons, the Washington lobbyist who John McCain has named to head his presidential transition team, aided an influence effort on behalf of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein to ease international sanctions against his regime.

The two lobbyists who Timmons worked closely with over a five year period on the lobbying campaign later either pleaded guilty to or were convicted of federal criminal charges that they had acted as unregistered agents of Saddam Hussein's government.

During the same period beginning in 1992, Timmons worked closely with the two lobbyists, Samir Vincent and Tongsun Park, on a previously unreported prospective deal with the Iraqis in which they hoped to be awarded a contract to purchase and resell Iraqi oil. Timmons, Vincent, and Park stood to share at least $45 million if the business deal went through.

Timmons' activities occurred in the years following the first Gulf War, when Washington considered Iraq to be a rogue enemy state and a sponsor of terrorism. His dealings on behalf of the deceased Iraqi leader stand in stark contrast to the views his current employer held at the time.

John McCain strongly supported the 1991 military action against Iraq, and as recently as Sunday described Saddam Hussein as a one-time menace to the region who had "stated categorically that he would acquire weapons of mass destruction, and he would use them wherever he could."

Timmons declined to comment for this story. An office manager who works for him said that he has made it his practice during his public career to never speak to the press. Timmons previously told investigators that he did not know that either Vincent or Park were acting as unregistered agents of Iraq. He also insisted that he did not fully understand just how closely the two men were tied to Saddam's regime while they collaborated.

But testimony and records made public during Park's criminal trial, as well as other information uncovered during a United Nations investigation, suggest just the opposite. Virtually everything Timmons did while working on the lobbying campaign was within days conveyed by Vincent to either one or both of Saddam Hussein's top aides, Tariq Aziz and Nizar Hamdoon. Vincent also testified that he almost always relayed input from the Iraqi aides back to Timmons.

Talking points that Timmons produced for the lobbyists to help ease the sanctions, for example, were reviewed ahead of time by Aziz, Vincent testified in court. Proposals that Timmons himself circulated to U.S. officials as part of the effort were written with the assistance of the Iraqi officials, and were also sent ahead of time with Timmons' approval to Aziz, other records show.

Moreover, there was a major financial incentive at play for Timmons. The multi-million dollar oil deal that he was pursuing with the two other lobbyists would only be possible if their efforts to ease sanctions against Iraq were successful. *

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:22 AM

Correction: *he dedicated the book to Sirhan Sirhan

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:21 AM

But I will say, as I have also said on other threads, I feel pretty confident that Ayers believes that Sirhan Sirhan did not kill Bobby Kennedy, that he blames the US government for Kennedy's death, and that he dedicated the book to Kennedy because he believes that Sirhan Sirhan was set up to take blame for a murder he did not commit.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:17 AM

LOLOL

Well, the election is only a couple of days away. It doesn't look like those kinds of ugly smear tactics are working for the McCain people. In fact, it looks like the effect they're having is the opposite of the one the McCain people intend. And that's as it should be. Time for me to not waste any more time responding to the smear tactics and go hit the pavement to get out the votes for Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:22 AM

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/11/bill_ayers_dedicated_his_1974.html

Sawzaw, and Rig...you'll like this one..
..Obama groupies will not!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:58 AM

The instructions I received from Billy Ayers was that the bombs to be used in Detroit must have shrapnel (fence staples, specifically) and fire potential (propane bottles). The intention was to kill police officers.

When I objected to Billy Ayers that more innocent people would be killed in the restaurant, he replied, "Innocent people have to die in a revolution." Billy also acknowledged during a criticism session in Buffalo that Bernadine placed the bomb at the Park Police Station which resulted in the death of Police Officer McDonnell.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:12 AM

From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:52 AM

"corporations that buy parties, candidates and presidents" That must be Soros you're talking about.

..and Murdoch, and Westinghouse, and Goldman Sachs, and AIG, and Geico, and Dow Chemical, and Exxon, and BP, and Lilly, and NBC. and Boeing, and McDonald-Douglass, and Alcoa, and GM, and Warren Buffett, and Mattel, and Pfizer, and Mobil, and Lockeed, and Ford, and Hunts, and Hollywood movie industry, and General Electric, and Colt, and Bell, and General Dynamics, and Chrysler, and Singer, and General Foods, and Microsoft, and AOL, and Caterpillar, and...well you get the idea...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:25 AM

CCs $500,000 "gift" from Mccain to Khalidi she has been hooting about:

Factcheck.org

Since 1993, McCain has been chairman of the International Republican Institute â€" a nonprofit and nonpartisan group that helps promote democratic practices and institutions across the globe.

The IRI, in an October 29 press release, said it "gave grants" to the Center for Palestinian Research and Studies for polling in the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza. The IRI said its "relationship with CPRS ended in 2000, and we understand that it no longer exists."

"We understand that Rashid Khalidi was one of the many founders of CPRS, and we understand that he was for some amount of time, a board member," the IRI said.

A defunct CPRS Web site lists Khalidi was one of the seven people who founded the group in March 1993. CPRS described itself as "an independent academic research and policy analysis institution."

"Because CPRS is independent of political factions, it is in a unique position of being able to serve as a forum for meetings of Palestinian and international researchers from various political backgrounds and ideologies in a free academic and professional atmosphere," the group said.

John McCain has never met Rashid Khalidi, while Barack Obama has acknowledged a close friendship with him.

The Verdict: True. There was a relationship in the 1990s between the IRI, chaired by McCain, and the CPRS, co-founded by Khalidi, which received IRI funding.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:12 AM

Who did Liddy's people bomb? Seen him standing on the flag recently? Does he run away and hide when questioned then call the police? Does he address people as Comrade?

I guess Bobert can't figure out those ages. Too difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:52 AM

You stick with Cuba and Vietnam, I'll stick with the US. Freedom is OK with me.


"corporations that buy parties, candidates and presidents" That must be Soros you're talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:33 AM

...........and not in the corporations that buy parties, candidates and presidents!!...Wait till you get a load of their advertising campaign..its called 'the news'!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:15 AM

I shouldn't wonder that they (Cuba and North Vietnam) might have helped American dissidents like the Weathermen. Why wouldn't they?   Now you should look into what American government and corporate agents have done all over Latin America and the Third World if you want something that will really curl your hair. I'm talking about assassinations, coups, regime change, invasion, torture, mass murder, and the killing of many, many thousands of Third World people in the name of corporate free enterprise and profit.

There's a war going on out there all the time. Your error is in assuming that the "angels" are on your own government's side. They're not.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:09 AM

FBI Asserts Cuba Aided Weathermen

By NICHOLAS M. HORROCK The New York Times

WASHINGTON, Oct. 8 - Cuban espionage agents operating in the United States and Canada supplied limited aid to the Weather Underground, a militant antiwar organization, in the late 1960's and early 1970's, according to a top-secret report of the Federal Bureau of Investigation

Some technical assistance was also provided by North Vietnam, the report says, but there was no evidence that the Soviet Union, China or Eastern European nations ever made direct attempts to stir up American dissidents.

The 400-page report, a copy of which has been obtained by The New. York Times, was prepared in August 1976 after the Department of Justice opened a criminal investigation into charges that bureau agents had committed burglaries and carried out illegal mail openings and wiretaps in their attempts to apprehend Weathermen fugitives.

The closely held report - only 10 copies were sent to the bureau director, Clarence M. Kelley - was aimed at establishing that members of the Weather Underground were operating as secret agents of a foreign power and were thus legitimate targets of counterintelligence measures.

The report disclosed, however, that Communist bloc nations had given little tangible support to the American antiwar movement. The report was based upon information from the Central Intelligence Agency, several foreign intelligence services, a wide range of American and foreign police agencies, electronic eavesdropping and reports of several confidential informers.

The following were some of the key points:

-Three years before militant members of the students for a Democratic Society split off to form the Weather Underground Organization in 1970, North Vietnamese and Cuban officials were influencing radical antiwar strategy through foreign meetings. Many of these meetings were held in Communist countries, including Hungary, Czechoslovakia and North Vietnam,

-The conduit for contact in the United States was a group of intelligence agents assigned to the staff of the Cuban Mission to the United Nations in New York. These agents arranged for American youths to be inculcated with revolutionary fervor and, occasionally, to be trained in practical weaponry by Cuban military officers through the so-called Venceremos Brigades.

-After the Weathermen went "underground" in 1970 and many of them were being sought by the F.B.I. on criminal charges, Cuban intelligence officers were in touch with them from both the New York mission and the Cuban Embassy in Canada.

-Cuban officials helped several Weather Underground adherents who feared arrest in the United States to travel to Prague, Czechoslovakia, and then to reenter the United Slates surreptitiously.

The report linked the growing militancy of certain members of the Students for a Democratic Society, which resulted in the so-called Days of Rage in Chicago in 1969; to North Vietnamese advice the year before to choose youngsters who would battle with the police.

The North Vietnamese, according to S.D.S. literature of the time, had suggested that the antiwar movement needed not just intellectual protesters but also physically rugged recruits....

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 12:07 AM

I don't think you get my drift, Amos... ;-)

Look, if by some hideous twist of fate I were running for president of the USA, I would never have the ghost of a chance of getting elected anyway, because my opinions are comparable to those of Dennis Kucinich...and they wouldn't even let him into the later Democratic primary debates. It is inconceivable that I could be elected president, given my views. It is inconceivable that either the Democrats or Republicans would want me as their candidate. I despise both those political parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 11:58 PM

Thank God, however, I am not running for president.

LH:

I agree wholeheartedly!


Sawz:

Thanks--you sound more reasonable these days.


There is a world of difference between keeping company with someone and dealing with them in your work life.

Obama has a strong friendship with David Axelrod, for example. I suspect he has never had a strong link of affinity with Ayers, or any of the other folks you are alarmed about. I think you have misread the man's character completely.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:49 PM

From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:31 AM

The bullshit being spouted by both candidates will make no difference

You had the chance to get up off your arses and given Bush's universal unpopularity, give your country a real fresh start, but it appears you've been conned into continuing with "corporatelite" Obama.
Its still Corporate America......but with a shiny, smiley face...Ake

Now, as to associations, as stated by Little Hawk, and others,..I don't particularly agree with ALL Akenaton's political philosophies, however, she is dead on right on this one

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:23 PM

However people do not associate with someone they don't like or do not get along with.

Of course they do, in all walks of life. And politicians, and other show business types more than most.

You can't really think people in politics or show business actually like each other, Bush likes McCain? Bill and Hilary Clinton like Obama? Don't be daft.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:35 PM

Sawzaw, income taxes are not the only taxes. About half the taxes the average person pays in each year are NOT income tax, they are other forms of taxation that are built into society at every level of monetary exchange, and everybody pays them, including the poorest people. They are inescapable unless you vanish into the wilderness, live off the land in a leanto or a teepee, and stop using money altogether.

To give poor people a tax rebate is to give them a rebate from all those other taxes...not from income tax they never paid.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:55 PM

McCain's only plan for fixing our economic mess is to cut corporate taxes even further than they already are. He doesn't have any plan to make sure the taxpayers get paid back for the handouts we're giving to the big banks and corporations. That's corporate welfare - free money for the big corporations from us taxpayers, in the amount of more than a trillion dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:43 PM

"wants to give free money" How so? I thought free money was from Obama to people that did not pay any income tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:11 PM

I have a very good friend who is an out and out reactionary, basically something pretty close to a White supremacist, and we agree on very little when it comes to politics or social issues. But he's still a good friend, because we share many common interests in folk music and because he has proven to be a 100% honest and reliable friend through thick and thin and can always be depended on when the chips are down.

He has said things that would have created a scandal for ANY presidential candidate if you can establish guilt by mere association with someone.

Now, if I was running for president, some asshole in the other party would hire people to snoop around, find about about my friend, and use it to attack MY credibility even though I do not agree with my friend's political opinions at all.

Thank God, however, I am not running for president. Nor would I, even if I had all the qualifications and experience. It isn't worth the shit you have to put up with when you're put in that position.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:41 PM

McCain has admitted to being friends with Oliver North and G. Gordon Liddy, two known terrorists. How do we know they haven't "infected" him? And as they say, a person is known by the friends they keep.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:35 PM

"However people do not associate with someone they don't like or do not get along with."

When I was working construction, for the past 35 yrs just about every day I had to work with & get along with people I didn't like & didn't want to assocate with but I did it & I wouldn't have been able to keep my job if I didn't.

If Obama has to keep a distance from all the people hat you believe he needds to keep a distance from, weither he knows their background or not the he'll have to move into a cave. A great place for him to be running a campain from.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:11 PM

Amos:

I always try to check things out before I post them. I believe they are facts and not just a bunch of opinions, mo matter if 90% of people think something is true, it may not be true.

Yes, I am subject to knee jerk reactions and may jump too quick but I am also ready to retract something if it turns out to be false.

As to Obama being infected with something from Khalidi or Ayers, How would anybody ever prove anything about one person influencing another?

However people do not associate with someone they don't like or do not get along with.

Then there is the axiom that you are known by the friends you keep. Obama has never admitted to being friends with Ayers but admits to being friends with Khalidi and discussing ideologies with him.

Every time I check out the validity of something about Obama, the name of another former terrorist, Muslim extremist, radical, Marxist, convicted felon etc pops up. If is as intelligent as he proclaims, why didn't he have the good judgment to stay clear of these people? Or does political expediency trump morals?

I seems to me that the Chicago political establishment is a nest of Liberal elitists and you can't work your way up with out supporting them and owing them favors. They look down on the average American and tell him he is disadvantaged, down trodden, poor etc. They believe they know what is best for them like their flock of sheep.

Fuck'em all.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:59 AM

Obama has remained consistent with his tax proposals from the very beginning and that is why the McCain campaugn has put so much energy into trying to make it *sound* otherwise... Remember, the Repubs still believe in Roveian politics where you attack the strenght of your opponent...

They used it against a parapalegic Vietnam vet back in 2000 to win a ZSenate seat from S.B. or was it Georgia??? Anyway, the guy was attacked for his forien policy views... I'd say that a guy who lost three limbs in Vietnam has all the right in the world to voice his views but the Rovians painted him as unAmerican...

This is the only way they know to campaign since they do not have any real, ahhhh, friggin' ideas opf their own other than letting the lobbiests run the country...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:45 AM

We shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:31 AM

As in the UK, the people who make the most money actually pay proportionately less tax.....the "getout clause"is built into the system.
The taxation systems both in US and UK, are corrupt and unfair....the rich just opt out...they do something more profitable with their money, using one of the many loopholes.
The poor in comparison, need all their earnings just to survive and so are caught in the corrupt taxation trap.
The bullshit being spouted by both candidates will make no difference to this situation.....simply tinkering with a failed system.

You had the chance to get up off your arses and given Bush's universal unpopularity, give your country a real fresh start, but it appears you've been conned into continuing with "corporatelite" Obama.
Its still Corporate America......but with a shiny, smiley face...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:56 AM

According to the Obama website, the $150,000 figure is for married couples. So I'm guessing the $120,000 figure is for people filing individually. Obama has said that 95% of working Americans will have their taxes cut under his plan.

Under McCain's plan, the people who make the most will have their taxes cut the most. Those who make less will have their taxes cut less. Under McCain's plan, for instance, JtS and I will experience a very small tax cut, only a few hundred dollars. Under Obama's plan, our taxes will be cut a few thousand dollars. Plus, as small business owners, we will not have to pay capital gains taxes, and we'll receive a tax credit for providing our employees (us) with health insurance. We're probably in the same tax bracket as the majority of people in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:33 AM

I guess you missed Bill Richardson's statement on video, being played on the news.....

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:10 AM

Here's the figures. In my last post I said "no one" would see a tax increase with an income under $250,000, but I should have said, no families. Here's what Obama's website says (and has said, all along)...

$250,000 and under, no tax increase for families
$200,000 and under, no tax increase for individuals

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Tax_Plan_Comparison_FINAL.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:02 AM

That's another example of the lies that people are telling voters in order to try to fool them into voting against their own financial interests.

The 250,000 figure, which Obama has consistently used in his platform, is the income under which people will not have their taxes raised. He has consistently said this. He said, no one making under $250,000 will see their income tax raised. He has never said that people between $200,000 and $250,000 would get a tax cut.

The $150,000 figure is the income below which people will experience a reduction in their taxes.

The Obama campaign has been perfectly consistent in who they've said would get a tax cut, whose taxes would remain the same, and who would see their taxes increase. The only thing that has changed is which particular lies the McCain campaign has decided to tell on any particular day.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:31 AM

'Over $250,000...uh.hmm..I meant $150,000.....Richardson, why did you tell them we talked about $120,000...Jeez, people will think I'm lying to them, again...I want them to forget I voted for $42,000..0r was it $41,000 ????// Awww don't worry, they're blind with enthusiasm...anything I tell them they'll think is the truth.....Now go out and book another T.V. spot!! Just don't let them forget, that they love me!!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:36 PM

My guess about that Sirhan Sirhan dedication is that Ayers is one of the people who believe that Sirhan Sirhan was set up, but that he wasn't the person who actually killed Bobby Kennedy. There actually are a lot of people who see it that way. Here's an example...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/FBI/Who_Killed_R_Kennedy.html

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:31 PM

We were asked whether or not is reasonable for people to be leery of Obama. I answered the question from my own perspective. I can't speak for anyone else. If someone else feels a need to be leery of Obama, that's their business. I can only answer that question from my own perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:26 PM

McCain must already have been in sympathy with Khalidi's ideology, otherwise I doubt he would have given him more than a half million dollars (almost a half million on one occasion, and there were other occasions in which McCain gave him money).

On whether or not Obama was influenced by Khalidi's ideology, being someone's friend doesn't mean that they will absorb that friend's ideology by osmosis or anything. I have friends and relatives who are of the right wing, but so far, their ideology has not rubbed off on me. All people need to do to know where Obama stands on this particular issue is to look at his record. (A stance and a record that I do not agree with myself, incidentally.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:18 PM

"large corporations get to keep all of the profits, and the taxpayers get to take on all of the risk."

Obama has promised that the taxpayers will be paid back first, and he will also use the taxpayers' money to create jobs though investing in infrastructure and in green technologies, unlike McCain who just wants to give free money and more tax breaks to the companies that are the cause of the problems.