Show of Hands - Bellowhead

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Folknacious
Date: 21 May 09 - 11:32 AM

Aargh, try again! See long posting from Phil Beer in the Froots/ EFDSS thread. Especially if you are LC.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: GUEST,Captain Jack Sparrow
Date: 21 May 09 - 10:59 AM

Sir Bulverton's squire is perhaps working on subtitling this one.

The Alternative Factor

No! Not good! Stop! Not good! What are you doing? You burned all the food, the shade... the rum!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: GUEST,Mad Spaniel
Date: 21 May 09 - 10:20 AM

I thought the clip was funny, a laugh, something to giggle at before the rain starts again. Lighten up please.

I like both bands but then again i don't take sides in the Beatles stones silliness either.

Get over it you guys

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 May 09 - 06:40 AM

Curse this computer, it can't spell.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 May 09 - 06:39 AM

Soyy I thought you said Lizzie Borden, or was it Lizzie Dripping.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Gervase
Date: 21 May 09 - 06:19 AM

You're not the only one!
I reckon that "Lizzie Cornish" is actually Jon Boden's brilliant but deranged great aunt, sitting in an attic with a computer, chain-smoking Embassy untipped and trying to do her best to scupper those bastards from Show of Hands.
"But Jon, I was only trying to help..." may be the last quavering words we hear as she's bundled into the back of a white van. Come to think of it, it was probably her that nicked the gin...

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 09 - 06:12 AM

I used to quite like Show of Hands. I have just gone off them...

;D (eG)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 May 09 - 04:13 AM

Barry, check them both out, fabulous musicians, all.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: evansakes
Date: 21 May 09 - 04:05 AM

Barry, you might be in luck if you find yourself anywhere near an English seaside resort this summer (apart from Sidmouth of course).

They could be playing at a pier near you. Not so much a session, more of a good ole Cockney ding dong. Same thing really.

Summer tour

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 21 May 09 - 02:05 AM

Jon Boden's latest session venture at

The Royal Hotel, Sheffield.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 May 09 - 01:52 AM

By golly, maybe, hopefully I'll get to see these two groups that I've never heard of when I get to go to my first trip to England this summer. Anyone know what session they sing at?

Barry

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 May 09 - 08:30 PM

Anybody in the folk scene had to deal with a stalker before?

How did they do it? Court orders? Sending the boys round?

Lizzie's antics must be costing Knightley, Beer and Lakeman a significant loss of income by now.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Cllr
Date: 20 May 09 - 08:28 PM

i thought so, thanks derek

+you got more rabbit than sainsburys why dont you give it a rest **

ahh happy days

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 20 May 09 - 08:20 PM

<<<<"Chas 'n' Dave for Sidmouth headliners!" Eh? fRoots would SLAUGHTER them!>>>

Chas n Dave appeared at Sidmouth, Monday night, at Arena in 1998.
No reports of any slaughter!
Derek

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 May 09 - 05:01 PM

Ooh, Gerry! ;0)

Oh, how strange, they're throwing wobblies over on the fRoots board at the moment. :0)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: evansakes
Date: 20 May 09 - 04:26 PM

"Chas 'n' Dave for Sidmouth headliners!"

Eh?

fRoots would SLAUGHTER them!

Besides, if they wanted pub singers they'd have booked Show of Hands.

:-)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 May 09 - 03:05 PM

"Lizzie - Lonnie Donegan and Bob Dylan brought far more people into folk music long before SOH, Kate Rusby and the entire Lakeman family were ever heard of; but I can't imagine anyone campaigning for EFDSS to award them a gold badge. "


Show of Hands brought *me* into folk music, Dave...Bob didn't, I liked him, yes...Lonnie was a a few years before me, but I remember a few of his songs...but it was Steve and Phil who got me into this world...

So, I'm afraid, even though the serious ones won't like it, they did lead me to the likes of Walter Pardon, Harry Cox, Sam Larner and Bob Copper...

Without SoH, I'd not be here...and just think how unhappy you'd all be! ;0)

And I think I'm fairly safe in saying that there are MASSES of other people out here who've found their way into English traditional music because of Show of Hands.

That's all. It's no big deal. It's just the way it is, that because of them, I've discovered a whole world of music...and I'm afraid that yes, I DO think they should have some sort of recognition from the traditional world, at long, long last, for their sheer hard work and efforts over many years to remove the barriers from traditional music, and bring in thousands of people.

As I said, Ian Anderson is now recognising that fact, Colin Irwin too....and it seems that Diane and Joan are also on their way, at long, long last...

Yippeeeeeeeee!

Getting back to the topic of the thread though, that film is just terribly funny. Every time I watch it, I still laugh...and it's good to laugh at it, because it shows the how silly this whole thing has been for so long...

Time to change, methinks..and that change is happening now...being driven by Ian Anderson and fRoots themselves..

Well done, Ian. :0) xxx

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Zen
Date: 20 May 09 - 02:21 PM

If I remember right it was 1981... saw that concert.

Zen

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: GUEST,Scotsman Over The Border
Date: 20 May 09 - 12:44 PM

Chas and Dave played Cambridge FF, must have been around '80 - '82ish

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 20 May 09 - 12:39 PM

Chas 'n' Dave for Sidmouth headliners! ;-)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: evansakes
Date: 20 May 09 - 09:14 AM

"And wasn't either Chas or Dave (or both) in that underrated early 1970s band Heads Hands & Feet"

Spot on, Smedley....there ain't no fleas on you.

Chas n Dave

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Smedley
Date: 20 May 09 - 09:03 AM

And wasn't either Chas or Dave (or both) in that underrated early 1970s band Heads Hands & Feet (who were a sort of Brit attempt at country-rock with Albert Lee on lead guitar) ?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 09 - 08:44 AM

"I have TWO albums by Chas n Dave and have always admired their music (and musicicianship)."

Fine musicians they are indeed - not as Chas & dave so much, IMHO, but many years ago I played in a band that played support for Cliff Bennett and The Rebel Rousers a couple of times, when Chas and Dave were Rebel Rousers. Fabulous band, fantastic singer. Loved 'Baby, It's Alright' and their wonderful swinging version of '6345789'. Brilliant Soul/R&B.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 May 09 - 06:58 AM

Try again with a name, just Guest will get deleted.

Is it just me that's of the opinion that this (very amusing) satirisation is nothing whatsoever to do with the perceived merits (or lack of) of either of these two bands.

No, it's not just you.

Personally, I felt the video was open to various interpretations including Lizzie's "folk SS" feelings, someone else's rights/wrongs about using nazi's in humour, etc.

It's one reason why I didn't find it hilarious.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Cllr
Date: 20 May 09 - 06:30 AM

twickfolk, couldn't agree more. bunny bunny rabbit rabbit

Cllr

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: evansakes
Date: 20 May 09 - 06:18 AM

Is it just me that's of the opinion that this (very amusing) satirisation is nothing whatsoever to do with the perceived merits (or lack of) of either of these two bands.

Seems clear to me it's merely a general observation on ANY kind of musical intolerance. The sort of blind tribalistic stuff that's been going on since time immemorial albeit one that's particularly prevalent in folk circles. The principal polarised parties could just as easily have been Martin Carthy and Jim Moray. Or George Jones and Steve Earle, Beethoven and Stockhausen, Louis Armstrong and Dizzy Gillespie, Marc Bolan or David Bowie etc etc

Everything else in the video is an irrelevant detail. Amazing that anyone might think there's any personal attack being made on Sidmouth Festival organisers past or present so no-one should take offence....not even Chas n flippin Dave :-)

I imagine whoever devised this parody is now perusing this thread with great amusement. The premise behind it has been entirely reinforced by some of the knee-jerk reactions in this thread.

ps Before anyone gets hot under the collar I should also clarify I have TWO albums by Chas n Dave and have always admired their music (and musicicianship). Gertcha!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 May 09 - 04:57 AM

I'm not sure I want to go down that route, Smedely. I was just trying to comment on how something never said in the first place suddenly becomes something you might feel obliged to defend.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Smedley
Date: 20 May 09 - 04:49 AM

I have been ventriloquised......(and I quite liked it)

Mormons ? Homophobes & racists. But more importantly, David Cassidy would be an infinitely better shag.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 May 09 - 04:45 AM

So you don't like Donny Osmond. What have you got against Mormons?

(queue next poster...)

...Quite right Jon, People like that have no respect for the beliefs or others.

(Smedley back to defend the comments and views he never made...)

...

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: GUEST,Captain Jack Sparrow
Date: 20 May 09 - 04:42 AM

Which Show of Hands CDs have you actually listened to Diane? Would you like me to make you a proper pirate copy of a couple. They wouldn't mind, they say so at every gig. It's not stealing, its borrowing with permission. Or has that varmit Blackbeard been keeping you supplied with Show of Hands' glittering treasures?

When did you last see them perform live? I look forward to reading your reaction to the Sidmouth gig.

I love this song. Really bad eggs. Ooh. When I get the Pearl back, I'm gonna teach it to the whole crew, and we'll sing it all the time.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 20 May 09 - 04:41 AM

"I said it would be nice if the EFDSS gave those who are bringing in tens of thousands to folk music, a gold badge...as they had Walter, because they are doing far more for the music now."
Lizzie - Lonnie Donegan and Bob Dylan brought far more people into folk music long before SOH, Kate Rusby and the entire Lakeman family were ever heard of; but I can't imagine anyone campaigning for EFDSS to award them a gold badge.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Smedley
Date: 20 May 09 - 04:24 AM

David Cassidy every time.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: glueman
Date: 20 May 09 - 04:16 AM

I find these like/dislike, David Cassidy vs Donny Osmond, Jackie v Fab 208 discussions very refreshing. They are subjective and show human nature for what it is - biased and passionate. More enlightened than a judgement backed up by some spurious old bollox of a definition that doesn't make the poster do any thinking because he/she is always 'right' cos, like, hey, just look at the f'king definition maaan.

So: B'head = fab, So'H = lightweight political posturing codswallop.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 May 09 - 03:45 AM

I do not know Steve Knightley.
I have met Phil Beer but once, not socially, at a workshop he did.
My assessment of their work is a musical one.
I know not how Jayne Delarre is going to react to the suggestion that I am her "best friend" but I'm sure she'll get over it.

Website creation? There's a fancy term for pirating others' efforts by copy-pasting it into Albion Farts. How are the copyright claims progressing?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 May 09 - 03:32 AM

Come off it. By allowing their songs to be collected, source singers enabled evil doers like Sharp to lock music away from the people. They were part of the plot.

Folk was finally set free from this desperate situation when one Lizzie Cornish began her campaign of enlightenment, single handely introducing the world to groups such as SOH as well as warning of the dangers of the Folk SS.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 May 09 - 03:30 AM

"madlizziecornish's now infamous claim that SoH are more important than Walter Pardon of whom she'd never heard is neatly annihilated in a Steve Knightley quote from an email to Ian Anderson which he has given permission to be used:"

Er....I've heard of Walter, and Harry and Sam...and a whole lot more...helped to create sites about them too, as well you know, Sugarplum.

And despite the twisting that's now going on, you'll find, if you check back, that I said it would be nice if the EFDSS gave those who are bringing in tens of thousands to folk music, a gold badge...as they had Walter, because they are doing far more for the music now.

I don't have the hang ups that you do, Diane. I don't look at things as you do. I fully understand that songs from the past are just that, songs from the past, kept alive by those who sang them at that time. I don't regard Walter as a 'saint' nor Show of Hands either, but I see them all as men who love music, who love songs, who love singing, people who have the music running through them.

You have tried to stop that music from flowing, so very many times. You have done all you can do to put some musicians down, and whilst you're now starting to change your mind, and be a little kinder towards SoH, probably because you've now met them, and so have softened, or....possibly because they have been so supportive of Mawkin, one of whom is your best friend's son....I don't know. But even in your softening, you are still highly insulting, sanctimonious and up your own arse, in my humble, but 'obnoxious' opinion.

There are tens of thousands of people out here who feel very differently to you, the difference is, we appreciate that you have the right to feel how you do, love the music you love.

Good to know that Steve and Ian are talking to one another. It's done my heart good to see that Ian has finally come round to seeing Show of Hands in a very different light, way overdue and lovely to see.

:0)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 09 - 03:26 AM

Seems to me that some (dare I call them, yes I bloody well dare) "f*lkies" have yet to mature beyond the 'Oasis v. Blur' teen-mag bollocks (or, in view of the age-range of some, if not all, of these people, perhaps that should be 'Beatles v. Stones').

Neither SoH nor Bellowhead are 'better' one than the other, they're just 'different', and whether what they do speaks to you or not is entirely up to you as the listener. IMHO.

AIH, I'm not a big fan of either of them as bands (one's too 'like wow, I'm so cool and far out man', the other is an out-of-tune, blaring cacophony, AFAMEAC) but I recognise their individual talents and hold them in equal respect as musicians. IMHO. YMMV.

Likewise, I hold in high respect people who have the vision, energy and cojones (yes guys, women can have balls too) to stick their heads above the parapet and undertake the organisation of any sort of festival, with all the bullet-dodging that it entails. Festival organisers are entitled to book whoever they wish, and not book whoever they don't wish, there's no "Statutory Compulsory Festival Performer List", no matter how much some people wish there was, and organisers are not under any obligation to book artistes just because someone, or even a lot of someones, thinks they should. They have the right to make decisions on whatever basis they wish - they take the risks, so it's their decision. These courageous people deserve our appreciation, not public censure and abuse. Again, all IMHO.

The clip was mildly amusing. We've had a larff. Some took it all too far, much too far. Maybe it's time to let this fall off the bottom now?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 May 09 - 03:20 AM

"Lizzie Cornish is a deranged New Age fantasist who ought to be sedated and sectioned."



Dear God of Music and Sparkles,

If you have a minute, I'd like to have a short chatter..

Please, never let me stop being someone who believes in magic and beauty. Never take that part of me away that sees and hears 'the music' in such a different way from those who feel the need to dissemble, wound and criticise at every turn. I am me, I will never be *them*. I love the music my way, in the way that is so natural to me, in the way that was given to me, in a way that is so alien to others.

So, God of Music and Sparkles, if you're 'out there', thank you for the magic you sprinkle down, thank you for putting it inside the music that I love so much, thank you for putting it inside me. But most of all, thank you for never sedating the part of my heart which sees the colours and the beauty. It makes up for the parts of my head that don't work in the same way as the pedantic ones, for I will never be able to debate like they do, to recall facts as they do, nor use words of more than one syllabubble.

And whilst some may always choose to see me as 'obnoxious' there are others out here who see and feel the music as I do...and they believe in me, which makes up for all the crap.

But could I just ask you one BIG favour? Could you please let me stay in my strait-jacket, because, as you know so well, it's this jacket which seals in my sparkles and lets them remain always with me, safe and protected from hearing the music as notes alone. Giving me the ability to see the colours that pour from the music and never wanting to be as 'obnoxious' as others on this thread...

Lots of Love
Lizzie, The Happily Weird One

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 May 09 - 02:52 AM

I do not think Steve Knightley has "failed".
I consider him to be a better-than-average songwriter and Phil Beer a jolly fine musician and producer.
Show Of Hands dull and samey arrangements leave me cold and I think they do as a band as little as they can get away with because they can.
They have an overgrown teenager, musically indiscriminating following but, additionally, have attracted attention from the far and nasty right who tried to incorporate the ideologically dodgy Roots.
If they wanted to they could very easily rise above this unfortunate fanbase, politically and musically.
madlizziecornish's now infamous claim that SoH are more important than Walter Pardon of whom she'd never heard is neatly annihilated in a Steve Knightley quote from an email to Ian Anderson which he has given permission to be used:

Ultimately this music is something we do but with Walter and his like it was what they were and it wouldn't be even be around for us to discover or re-create without his ilk!.

Which reflects where he stands currently in my estimation.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Zimmerman
Date: 19 May 09 - 08:42 PM

Diane Easby's painstaking deconstruction of this debate is to be applauded. Lizzie Cornish is a deranged New Age fantasist who ought to be sedated and sectioned.

But I must take issue with Ms. Easby's incessant vituperation on the subject of Show Of Hands. Being resident in a remote area I have only seen them once but felt that their performance that night widened the gateway to our traditional musical heritage for an audience which appeared not to be habitual attendees of folk clubs or sessions. Steve Knightley's songs are a legitimate subject for debate which I wouldn't want to stifle but I feel that he is well within the ambit of the process which, in the words of Ezra Pound when giving advice to T S Eliot on the subject of the traditional canon was: "make it new."

I perceive Ms. Easby not to be a hidebound curator of an ossified collection of songs and tunes, so what is her criterion for a legitimate reinterpretation of the traditional memes that she thinks Steve Knightley has failed at?

Which brings me to the more important underlying subject of this thread - the permissibility or otherwise of the annexation of the proximity to the Holocaust of the Downfall parodies? My view would be that, like it or not, the memetic process distances itself completely from the horrors of Hitlerism. Nothing is beyond satire.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:27 PM

SOH are a thinking man's outfit

Have you ever done any thinking???

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:08 PM

It's easy, SOH are a thinking man's outfit and Bellowhead are for the mob. Lizzie, I always enjoy your posts.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Amy_Florence_Nthants
Date: 19 May 09 - 04:47 PM

Thank you very much

"West-country, cream-guzzling pastry head" :-)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 May 09 - 04:11 PM

SoH should branch out, then maybe they can return re-invigorated and with fresh ideas.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Folknacious
Date: 19 May 09 - 04:03 PM

re-sited video as requested

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Amy_Florence_Nthants
Date: 19 May 09 - 03:59 PM

Okay maybe my system is just really dodgey but could someone post the link for a third time?

Pretty please? I've read all the comments and want to know what the fuss is about :-)

1st link didn't work
2nd link said video has been removed!!!

Please - with a cherry on top?

Thank You

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Zen
Date: 19 May 09 - 03:50 PM

To avoid any possible confusion from my comment below, it is the nastiness and personal attacks I deplore, not the expressing of opinions. There is a big difference between I very strongly disagree with you and You are a $£&%*!? (insert expletive of your choice)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 May 09 - 03:49 PM

Don't know what "whacky over very trad rendering of songs" means, but the thread is not, nor was it intended as a "war" about which band is the best. Not even madlizziecornish was trying to do that because, in her view, there is no band but SoH.

Where they have similarities, it is in their updated treatments of some trad material, however SoH's repertoire has vastly more self-written compositions. It is not even about "which CD to buy", but concerns a spoof situation in which one (Bellowhead) is pulling out of a headline festival spot and the alternative replacement is SoH.

Personally, I would agree entirely with the assessment that SoH's arrangements are "samey and stagnant". A terrible shame because they are nice chaps and all that but are capable of considerably better, certainly as individual musicians. One of Gervase's earlier posts summed this up very concisely. They get away with what they do because they can and make, presumably, an adequate living from not trying all that hard. I wish they would, but then, perhaps they are more interested in branching into alternative employment routes . . .

Bellowhead, on the other hand, are a 12-piece of professional, multi-genre musicians all have whom have a multiplicity of other projects on the go. It is no way a like-for-like comparison.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 19 May 09 - 03:45 PM

Personally, I'd like to see Phil Beer rejoin Ashley Hutchings and company, and leave Steve Knightley to his own devices, ain't going to happen though.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Bellowhead
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 May 09 - 03:40 PM

Ooh, Diane, you are *awful*, but....I like you! ;0)


Grand news! Ian Anderson has said, over on his board, that he's coming to Sidmouth this year! Apparently, he's on 'tank duty' to keep me out of The Bedford...LOLOLOL!

'57 boards and nothing on' was what Springsteen wrote about the BBC boards, as I recall, from my Walter Pardon Me days, which just goes to show that Springsty never found Mudcat! Oh, this place is just the best, everything from Sidmouth Adolf to Tits and Geysers.

I have to get my Invisibility Cloak ready for August,, so I can jump out and go BOO! to Grumpy Ed.

Tam, this isn't war..this is the English having fun! :0)

They love me to bits really... ;0)