ADD: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc (bawdy)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:54 PM

amazing how much talk a bit of religious right spam can generate

McGrath of Harlow et. al. let's say I just delete that aside about Jimmy's lips moving. It was a cheap shot, and I took it (but it may be true anyway). That is not the gist of my argument or at all my concern.

So many 'urban legend' type stories begin with 'little Jimmy couldn't say his blessing in the cafeteria'. (That's how Rush gets the folks riled up, that's how the Anita Hill thing got twisted by someone who now admits it was all lies.) I'm not from Missouri, but I say 'Show Me' anyway. Let's deal with hard cases, of factual insensitivity, but not made-up 'what ifs?' that generate emotional responses. That's all.

I'm against intolerance in ALL its manifestations, though I wouldn't call kids making fun of someone talking to himself 'intolerance', I'd call it 'kids making fun of someone talking to himself', & no big deal.

As to moral degeneration, everyone should read a little more history, this has never been a 'moral' nation. Statistically, per capita crime is no more rampant or sordid or horrible or unspeakable than it ever was. Old newspapers are full of much the same stuff we see today. There has been no 'backsliding' or turning away from religion. That is a smokescreen, also thought up by the right, to make people who naturally remember 'better days gone by' and naturally for the most part forget the rotten stuff that was going on back then (lynching, etc.), believe that it was a golden age when everyone was in church and right with god, and christians ruled and governed wisely.

It never happened like that.

Today is not that different, EXCEPT,

- and this cannot be controverted by facts, no matter how loudy you feel the need to claim the 2nd amendment -

there are way too many guns, available to way too many people, for no good reason, (except that people who sell guns make money, & people who are afraid stay indoors and watch more tv advertising,) and very often, innocent people get killed by gunfire.

this could spawn many other threads about parenting, rights and responsibilities, violence, mentoring, etc. and it would all be worthwhile, I think, to air our views in a largely positive, public forum like this. You religious people out there, enjoy your right to pray to whatever god you like, the rest of you out there, stand up for your right not to have someone else's beliefs shoved in your face. and everyone work for peace, there are some scary times ahead, i'm afraid.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:34 PM

There was little sign of intolerance or fanaticism at the schools I attended. People who were of non Christian religions were excused service/assembly and had rooms they could assemble together temporarily (approx 125 out of a school of 800)or invited to attend without joining in prayers. For the most part Muslims, Jews and a few Communists sat in with their Christian friends, because after the short service there were announcments and other activities that included them. Respect for all was the norm, and racism was simply not tolerated by the staff. Now it seems that a vocal minority are offended by any display of worship. Strange isnt it?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:29 PM

Pigs and cows both have four legs, and they get raised on farms and get eaten. But we find it useful to have separate words for them.

So on my understanding, while saying either "fuck-all" and "Jesus weeps" might fall into the category of "bad language", it'd be no more appropriate to call the first expression "profane" than to call the second "obscene".

Of course words change their meaning, and when you try to hold on to a meaning that has gone, that's pedantry. Maybe some day the word profane will have lost all it's associations with "sacred things". Maybe that's already happened, and it hasn't got to me yet.

Either way, it's not something I can imagine getting angry with someone over.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:13 PM

"But that fanaticism would be generated by the church of that person's faith, not by a school that refrained from choosing one faith's god to pray to over another faith's god." (Sharon)

I'd see it more as one of the consequences of intolerance on the part of the people who laughed at someone for saying their prayers. Intolerance generates fanaticism in all kinds of contexts. Sneer at people for being different, and just now and then that's going to push someone over the edge.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:10 PM

I appologise JP.... I dont have time to teach history to you today. I suggest you read about the Iroquois Confederacy and the Constitution of the United States.

"To be ignorant of what happened before you were born is to ever be a child. For what is a man's lifetime unless the memory of past events is woven with those of earlier times" Marcus Tullius Cicero 106-46 BC

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: annamill
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:26 PM

I really agree that guns don't kill people, people do. Guns just make it easier for people to kill people.

Bill Kennedy, you have already written all my feelings on Religion and State.

Just my 2cents.

Lousy choice of a thread title too.

Annamill

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:17 PM

"I must have mis-read the thread title"

How can you tell, given that stupid affected accent that LJC insist on posting in...

Comes off as about as dumb as the kids and their T3xT 5p3ak...

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:00 PM

Hey Catspaw, how come it took you so long to find a good laugh here?

Rick

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: John P
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 12:57 PM

Guest, you wrote: JP:
"JP - . . . Your form of government was based on Indian beliefs, which include a supreme deity are they not?"

Huh? What are you talking about? I don't think I have described my "form of government", whatever that means, or my beliefs, which don't have anything to do with India or a supreme deity. This reads like a complete non-sequiter. Can you explain your point more fully?

And then you wrote: "Guns dont kill people, people kill people (with whatever implents and devices they can) If you attach moral culpability to an inamiate object, you are being irrational as well as arrogant and unpleasant in your arguments. "

I have never ascribed motive or culpability to an inanimate object. In fact, the only people I've ever heard say something like that are pro-gun folks trying to make the anti-gun folks look stupid. What I have said is that the easy availabiltiy of guns makes it a lot easier for people to kill each other. Give me an assailant with a kitchen knife instead of a gun any day. I'll bet I can outrun someone with a knife. I know I can't outrun a bullet. I'm sorry if I have come across as arrogant or unpleasant. That has not been my intention. Can you point to specifics for me?

McGrath of Harlow: Did you really not understand what I was saying when I said there was profanity in the thread title? Why do you retreat to an argument based on a pedantic, leagalistic defining of words, rather than trying to communicate in any real way? If you don't have anything to add to the discussion, perhaps you should stay silent. And, if you want get all dictionary about it, you should read all the definitions listed under "profanity". In my dictionary it says, "(2)Abusive, vulgar, or irreverent language. (2a)The use of such language." You might also note that ljc's use of the word "fuck" has nothing to do with sexual intercourse. Maybe you were just trying to be cute, which I don't have a problem with. If so, you didn't make it obvious enough. If you were seriously trying to shoot down my statement, you failed.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:18 AM

I own a gun. It's never killed anything except a few paper targets, and that was only because I was putting blackpowder and balls into it.

Behind every weapon of destruction is a human being wielding it, who has made a conscious choice to do so. Weapons are only a symptom, not a cause; if we want to stop people from killing each other, we have to get at the cause. If you want the dog to stop biting, you don't cut off its tail.

Now. When I was in public school, in the 80s, religion was never an issue until a bunch of government people got together and said we needed to make it an issue. I don't recall race ever being an issue at my school either. Perhaps I have forgotten many things over the passage of time; but I do remember that I had black friends, Asian friends, Jewish friends, and Catholic friends. (At that time the Middle Eastern population in Nashville was very, very small; it has grown quite a bit since, as well as the Hispanic population.) In our little microcosm of the world, you either liked someone or you didn't, and where they came from or where they worshipped didn't figure into it.

I don't really understand where that changed, or even why. People are people. Why do we insist on dividing ourselves along racial & religious lines?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:15 AM

LJC, you're in a flyty mood these days!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 10:09 AM

Right Sharon,ah got it fae a wumman wha sends me photies o weemen wi' humungous t**s covortin wi' men wi' unbelievable c**ks!! Bit o' a contradiction there eh?
lj(new image) Cameron

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 09:41 AM

Oops; there was supposed to be an end-italics HTML after Kevin's quote (after the words "At a pinch") in the 2nd paragraph of my last post.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 09:37 AM

Kevin (McGrath) says, "I think there is much more danger that a ban on public prayer is likely to generate fundamantalism than the reverse. If people laugh at you for praying in public and you go ahead and pray in public anyway, that's very brave – but you could be well on the way towards becoming vulnerable to fanaticism. Whatever your religion." Boy, ain't that the truth. But that fanaticism would be generated by the church of that person's faith, not by a school that refrained from choosing one faith's god to pray to over another faith's god.

Kevin also says: "Profane? I can't see profanity in that thread title. 'To treat sacred objects with irreverence, violence or disrespect.' I suppose you could say that sexual activity is in some sense a sacred object, and that in some way the thread title is treating it with disprespect. At a pinch." My take on it is that some people consider prayer to be sacred, and more people consider the deity to whom (or which) they pray to be sacred. To make the spurious statement that prayer has "fuck-all" to do with music is not only profane, but in many cases untrue! Many people who pray, pray in song!!! (In fact, some schools get around the prayer issue by having their choirs sing some classical-music piece that is actually a prayer.)

John P (re your post of 26-Mar-02, 10:09 PM): Right on!! No one's outlawing or banning individual prayer.

ljc: Y'mean this whole teenager-poem thing was e-mail spam???? So we don't really know who wrote that poem, or how old (s)he really is. Sorry, but that poem's credibility has just plummeted to zero in my mind.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:29 AM

The men who drafted our constitution over two hundred years ago were much better educated and more politically sophisticated than any politicians we see hanging about today. We thank God that they left us the benefit of their wisdom!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:16 AM

"How amusing that someone complaining about the separation of church and state, and claiming that morals are not taught in schools, uses extreme profanity in the title of a thread on an open forum." (JohnP)

Profane? I can't see profaniuty in that thread title. "To treat sacred objects with irreverence, violence or disrespect." I suppose you could say that sexual activity is in some sense a sacred object, and that in some way the thread title is treating it with disprespect. At a pinch.

CarolC: Geordies come from Yorkshire in the same sense that Yankees come from Texas. There used to be a little bit of Yorkshire which to outsiders where the accent sounded a bit like Geordie, but they cut it off and made a separate county called Cleveland. And they don't count as Geordies either.

Here is a site arguing about these things Basically Geordie means from Newcastle, but it's extended often to mean the people who speak thelanguage, living in the area where the language is spoken, which is essentially that part of the old kingdom of Northumbria which is on the English side of the biorder with Scotland.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:16 AM

"How amusing that someone complaining about the separation of church and state, and claiming that morals are not taught in schools, uses extreme profanity in the title of a thread on an open forum." (JohnP)

Profane? I can't see profaniuty in that thread title. "To treat sacred objects with irreverence, violence or disrespect." I suppose you could say that sexual activity is in some sense a sacred object, and that in some way the thread title is treating it with disprespect. At a pinch.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 07:47 AM

I must have mis-read the thread title. Ignoring the expletive, I thought it was a thread "all to do with music"

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 07:35 AM

Charleton Heston and the NRA are largely responsible for promoting safe gun handling, by education and supporting existing gun legislation, and law enforcement. The NRA are a group of responsible gun owners involved in the shooting sports, who are as horrified as you are about rampant violence. Every time I hear of the Social Engineering Liberals who ignore these facts and criticise such endeavours I cringe...

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 06:54 AM

I knew if it went long enough I could find a good laugh in this sucker...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Tweed
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 06:42 AM

Exactly correct, I'd much rather be shot down in the street as to being blown up in the street, or paperweighted to death in Pier One and give thanks for Charleton Heston every morning for the NRA, who works to be sure that if you,as an American citizen,happen to piss somebody off you can be dispatched quickly and efficiently by the superior fire power available to any loony who can sign their name. A far more civilized death than can be attained with a paperweight, shoehorn or scented candle.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 06:12 AM

JP: his point was that we have replaced Christianity with something that ignores spirit... namely a void... Morals and Law, are all based on Judeo/Christian morals. Your form of government was based on Indian beliefs, which include a supreme deity are they not?

And for the individual who was emotional and somewhat deranged. Guns dont kill people, people kill people (with whatever implents and devices they can) If you attach moral culpability to an inamiate object, you are being irrational as well as arrogant and unpleasant in your arguments.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 12:10 AM

Ye're haudin' the cat's erse tae the sun again, ljc!!!!!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:51 PM

CarolC - I dinna ken who's "right" but hurrah! fer we've provoked ol' ljc inter commentatin' a weebit upon the eff-aw' *music*! In betwixt th' Prayers & the Guns y'know. :)

Geordie, Yorkshire, Hieland, Northumberland, it's still rock 'n' roll tae me.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:44 PM

Aye it disnae take much Tweed. ljc

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Tweed
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:37 PM

L.John C., Ya poked the snake and look at it go! Good on you!

Tweed

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:26 PM

Yeah, The Pooka. I guess maybe you're right. It was the word "divvent" in the song "Divvent Bother Us" that made me think of Geordie dialect. They've had some good threads on that subject in the past and for some reason that one stuck in my mind.

So now my big question is; are Geordies just from Yorkshire or are they also from Northumberland? Or does Northumberland have a dialect that is similar in some ways to that of Yorkshire?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:13 PM

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:05 PM

Ah love that stuff.We could stert anither rammy aboot whether it is a language or a dialect. ljc

Ah hae a bunch o' Stanly Holloway oan audio if ye want.PM ME YER EMAIL IF YE DAE.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM

CarolC - thanks. I dunno this stuff. I was guessing vaguely, from the "Tyneside" reference in the Lyr Adds. Actually I was just trying to distract ljc. To wit:

ljc, since yer back -- fuggedabout yer Topic fer a minnit; wot d'ye say aboot them Tyneside songs? :)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,MerryBee
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:46 PM

gnu, anagram of 'gun'perhaps. Big reaction from you,BIG!!I guess you're a strong N.R.A. supporter from that sort of jumping up and down.See that's the big problem with you boys and your toys your'e just too busey playing.

MB

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:20 PM

If ye wid take time tae read the post ye'll notice that ah never said ah agreed or disagreed wi' the poem.
This wis an email ah got yesterday.Ane o' they pass-it-oan thingies.Personally ah couldnae care less whether it is alood or no,although ah doot ye could stop the youngsters fechtin an' scrappin long enough for a prayer.Hae ye been in the schoolyaird lately?
There must be some reason,no' the prayin or lack o' it,why the youngsters are oot o' control.If ye want tae hear language jist try listenin tae them.
Mibbe ah should hae postit the original.Here it is,an' naw it wasnae Susan!!
--------------------------------------------

FW: Fwd: Fw: Please Pass it on!!!

> > > > > > Since the Pledge of Allegiance > > > > > > and > > > > > > The Lord's Prayer > > > > > > are not allowed in most > > > public schools anymore > > > > > > because the word "God" is mentioned.... > > > > > > a kid in Arizona wrote the attached > > > NEW > > > School > > > prayer. > > > > > > I liked it.... > > > > > > > > > Now I sit me down in school > > > > > > Where praying is against the rule > > > > > > For this great nation under God > > > > > > Finds mention of Him very odd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Scripture now the class recites, > > > > > > It violates the Bill of Rights. > > > > > > And anytime my head I bow > > > > > > Becomes a Federal matter now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our hair can be purple, orange or green, > > > > > > That's no offence; it's a freedom scene. > > > > > > The law is specific, the law is precise. > > > > > > Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For praying in a public hall > > > > > > Might offend someone with no faith at all. > > > > > > In silence alone we must meditate, > > > > > > God's name is prohibited by the state. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks, > > > > > > And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks. > > > > > > They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible. > > > > > > To quote the Good Book makes me liable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen, > > > > > > And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King. > > > > > > It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong, > > > > > > We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We can get our condoms and birth controls, > > > > > > Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles. > > > > > > But the Ten Commandments are not allowed, > > > > > > No word of God must reach this crowd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's scary here I must confess, > > > > > > When chaos reigns the school's a mess. > > > > > > So, Lord, this silent plea I make: > > > > > > Should I be shot; My soul please take! > > > > > > Amen > > > > > > > > > > > > If you aren't ashamed to do this, > > > > > > please pass this on. > > > > > > > > > Jesus said, > > > > > > " If you are ashamed of me," > > > > > > I will be ashamed of you before my Father." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not ashamed. Passing this on . . > > >

> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. >

---------------------------------------------

Ye'll also notice that ah hae postit "ljc" oan mah headins lately so that ah'll no' upset the sensibilities o' the language polis. Mah apologies for the "word" oan the title o' that ane.Should be ok in here though so fuck,fuck ,fuck.Ah that felt guid.ljc

ps,it wiil probably come oot funny as ah cannae be bothered wi' the line breks!!!

. ____________________________________________________ IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: John P
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:09 PM

Guest,
Perhaps the Columbine father's words to Congress were not widely reported because his speech was rather idiotic. He states that the reason there are people killing each other in schools is because we are no longer enforcing Christianity as a state-sponsored religion in our schools. I know that the man was in a lot of pain, and I feel deeply for his loss, but the whole concept is stupid. He also apparently feels, as do some of the people who have contributed to this thread, that individual prayer has in some way been outlawed. I for one am glad the press didn't see fit to trumpet this man's belief in the superstitions of the Christian mythology. Would you find it odd if the press failed to report someone standing before a congressional committee and telling them that all the problems in our schools would be solved if every student was given a pyramid shaped crystal and told to use it every day to meditate on peace?

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:45 PM

Rest ye well when the power of the gun is only in the hands of the rich. Just remember, you are the ones that gave it to them. You think there is disparity now ? You won't even have a voice at the Cafe. Study some history or be doomed to repeat it.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:40 PM

Find one piece of interesting commentary (that does not fit the normal Left Wing Social Engineering) and nobody asks why it wasnt reported to the population by the media? Had he condemed the NRA it would be front page news, and quoted for years afterwards. I find it sad.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:28 PM

I think they're Geordie songs. That would be Yorkshire, right?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:26 PM

Oh dear.

Well anyway - ljc, before you finally eff-a' tae dae wi' music, an sae rantin'ly & sae wantonly gae over tae the politics altogether, have you peeked at all these "Tyneside" Lyr Add's being posted tonight?? In me ignorance I dunno if they're Scots or Northumberland or both, or wot; but I thought mebbe ye might like 'em. (Sure are a *lot* of 'em.) Just thought I'd mention it. Y'know, before the next incoming barrage, here. / Woops! Duck!!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: John P
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:02 PM

How amusing that someone complaining about the separation of church and state, and claiming that morals are not taught in schools, uses extreme profanity in the title of a thread on an open forum.

How offensive that so many people apparently think we can't behave ethically unless we are steeped in religious teachings.

How amazing that so many people persist in the belief that guns don't exist to kill people and aren't uniquely suited to that task, and that the NRA doesn't bear any responisbility for the easy availability of these deadly devices.

How sad -- and bigoted -- that anyone thinks Christianity makes any more or any less sense than "vampires, witchcraft, and totem poles."

How strange that any Christian in the Western world, especially the United States, given the vast number of laws we all have to live with that are Christian in origin, would believe that their rights are being trampled.

How sinful for a religious person to think that anyone could ever stop you from praying -- if your real goal is to commune with god, not the loud proclamation of your faith.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:35 PM

Whew. This is not the best-humored of threads. / However.

Mr. McG. of H., as usual you speak wisdom. Right On, on both counts---especially the latter, which nicely reconnects the split ends into which this here thread has ravelled. For an end to the worship of the graven idol of the gun: Let us Pray.

ljc, what policies are there on school prayer in Scotland? (As you know, I for one dinna mind if ye answer in dialect.)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:06 PM

Well you can always kill someone with a paperweight. But that's really not what they are for. And you can always use a pistol as a paperweight. But that's really not what it's for either.

If you want to kill a lot of people a gun it's much easier to do with with a gun than with a conventional paperweight.

And if you want to get people killing each other, arguing anbout religion is quite a good starting point.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: ddw
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:01 PM

I'm moved, too. Made me wanna puke. It is just the kind of misrepresentation of the facts that posters above have been trying to explain. Nobody has passed any laws OUTLAWING prayer. They have only outlawed FORCED PRAYER. At least the guy got it right that it is not the NRA's fault, but then he loses it for the same reason most believers lose it: they can't imagine how anybody can object to their beliefs, even when they try to force them on the non-believers. Learn a basic truth, folks —- some people find religion at least as offensive as religious people find non-belief.

Seems to me, then, that the best thing is to just shut up about it.

Morality and ethics can and should be taught without any religious base —— just start from the precept that human beings have to live in societies and extrapolate what any action would to the that society if everyone practised it. You can reach some pretty good decisions that way.

BTW, ljc, who would you have lead the prayers in your schools —— the priests and bishops of Boston? Or some of their MANY Canadian counterparts?

david

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:38 PM

See why I think political/religious arguments are a waste of time? Let's talk (not shout) about music, where there's at least some chance for consensus.

And save me, Lord, from your followers.

Peace,
Michael

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:24 PM

Yup, especially when I hear that kind of absolute bullshit. If you don't address why people kill people, their choice of weapon doesn't even enter the equation, and some people can't even ADD !!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:18 PM

Christ, people are cranky around here today...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:16 PM

"PURE BULLSHIT" Willie-O is the fact that this society we live in doesn't give a shit about about the problems of the poor, the dis-enfranchised, the inequailties... ad infintum. Simple fact is, guns do not kill people, period, and no amount of shouting otherwise can change that FACT. If people like you keep spouting your bullshit instead of making the powers that be address the real problems, YOU ARE THE FUCKING PROBLEM.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:02 PM

It's pretty sad to see a parent who has been through personal tragedy simultaneously disclaim any sympathy the NRA while acting as a mouthpiece for their most cherished and often-repeated piece of nonsense the "guns don't kill people" argument. Which is PURE BULLSHIT.

And by the way, re "no amount of gun laws can can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre." Well, I beg to differ. A teenager tried to re-enact his version of Columbine in a high school two miles from the one I went to (in Ottawa). This occurred on the first anniversary of the massacre. Guess what: he stabbed five people including himself. They all lived.

Cause he couldn't get a gun...

W-O

There ain't no God...obviously.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 06:47 PM

"As a Jew who was forced to learn the Lord's Prayer when I went to school..." But surely it's really a Jewish prayer anyway to start with? (The only problem with it, according to this rabbi, appears to when people call it "the Lord's Prayer" rather than the Our Father. It's always been the Our Father for me.

"Some other kids might make fun of you if your lips move too much, but kids are cruel." So that's all right? And that doesn't interfere with the freedom to worship?

I think there is much more danger that a ban on public prayer is likely to generate fundamantalism than the reverse. If people laugh at you for praying in public and you go ahead and pray in public anyway, that's very brave - but you could be well on the way towards becoming vulnerable to fanaticism. Whatever your religion.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 06:19 PM

I am moved... in two ways. First, it's quite a speech. Second, before it's sent out by anyone, can it be verified as correct and actually given to the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee by this individual ?

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:33 PM

It has been almost two years since the murders at Columbine High School. The press never covered this presentation to the US government last year. The message has not changed.

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 Subject: The Country Needs to Hear this - Not in the news

On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.

They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well.

It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers."

"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart. "In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA."

"I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent. "I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves."

"I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today:

"Your laws ignore our deepest needs, Your words are empty air. You've stripped away our heritage, You've outlawed simple prayer.

Now gunshots fill our classrooms, And precious children die. You seek for answers everywhere, And ask the question "Why?"

You enact restrictive laws, Through legislative creed. And yet you fail to understand, That God is what we need!"

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and reek havoc. Spiritual presence's were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws."

"Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political posturing and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic needs are being ignored."

"We do need a change of heart and a humble acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple trust in God! As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes. He did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain."

"Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA - I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone! My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!" +++

Do what the media did not - - let people hear this man's speech. Please send it out to everyone you can!

The problem is probably even worse here in Canada

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:09 PM

ljc, I just heard on the CBC news about the two boys in Corner Brook who have been arrested for planning to kill a bunch of people. Is that what's got you feeling like the place is going down the tubes?