BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 10:44 AM

Yer welcome ake, and thanks to you too.

But here is the thing. I've have NEVER regretted voting FOR the candidate I felt most passionate about, regardless of whether they win or lose. And I can tell you, until Paul Wellstone was elected in 1992, I had never voted for a winner of a national political office, and I first voted in 1972.

Voting Green exhilirates me. Makes me happy. Makes me dance.

Compare that picture to the one being painted by the pro-Kerry anti-war pragmatists.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 10:35 AM

Ah Guest,    I think Iv got your passion,but I dont have your skill with words.
That post was the "coup de grace".
Thanks for raising my belief that it might be a "good world after all"

I hope that those who abused this man or woman,feel suitably ashamed of themselves,especially those in the higher reaches of Mudcat,who react against what they see as "dangerous" truth.

" Dont rock the boat too hard now, our opinions might get wet"..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 09:36 AM

Because Bush is an ass and a dangerous man, doesn't mean that Kerry isn't also. Kerry is the justification for most anti-war progressives I know who insist the MUST vote for him to beat Bush, have sold out their consciences. It really is that simple. And I could certainly name names of the people in this very thread who are now gung ho Kerry, who were some of the most vocal anti-warriors when Bush went into Iraq, no?

Just because you need to grasp at straws to justify voting for a pro-war candidate, which goes against your already publicly stated position of being anti-war, doesn't mean everyone who is anti-war is going to agree that making a pact with the devil you don't know to rid yourself of the devil you do, is going to agree with your strategy.

My partner, who has the one and only rationalization for voting for Kerry (which incidentally doesn't include anything to do with the war), does make sense, but the strategy is extremely high risk. The rationalization is we need to "throw the bums out" at the election, because when the politicians are guilty of such egregious misconduct, in a democracy, the only recourse you have (if you can't get them prosecuted legally) is to vote them out. So my partner's rationalization is, we need to vote them out regardless of who is opposing them. However, my parter does concede that when this is done, it needs to be done overwhelmingly and decisively. We agree that if Kerry just barely squeaks into office in a 51/49 scenario, we are screwed, and the rationalization and strategy will have turned out to be very, very wrong.

I say, that is much too high a risk to take, and that voting for a pro-occupation militarist LBJ/Joe Lieberman sort of Democrat (which Kerry certainly is) is an even greater risk because Kerry has already promised to EXPAND the occupation (ie send in more troops), not end it quickly. This whole thing strikes me as Bush and Kerry speeding down a four lane freeway at 90 miles an hour--Kerry on the left, Bush on the right, shooting at each other with automatic weapons fire, with the world in between them. A lot of the folks in the middle of their home front holy wars are gonna get killed.

Of course all the pundits said "great speech" because for Kerry it was a great speech. It wasn't a great speech by historic political oratory standards, but for Kerry the speech did what it had to do, which was appease the mongol hordes of media pundits.

But the progressives I know who are suffering from Anybody But Bush blindness and will vote for Kerry no matter what, are all pretty fucking despressed this week. They should be. IMO, they should be ashamed of themselves for having let their animosity towards the Republican personalities in the Bush administration get this far out of hand. Hate truly sucks as a positive motivator. You vote based upon your partisan hatred for the "Republican enemy" and you have become the neo-cons you despise.

If you are a strong anti-war progressive, rationalizing voting for a pro-war candidate "because we have to" to defeat another pro-war candidate, is the height of stupidity. My fearless predicition is those "Anybody But Bush" folks are going to wake up with a very bad hangover and a lot of regret come January 21st, regardless of who wins. Why? Because the most irrational, stupid thing the Democrats have done (again) was vote for the candidate that was more like the Republican they were trying to defeat, instead vote for the candidate that best represented their interests. This year, it should have been Howard Dean, and everyone knows it. But the reason we don't have Howard Dean, and are stuck with Bush Lite, is because of the very political cowardice of middle class nice Democrats akenaton refers to.

The circumstances required Democrats to show some guts, some fortitude, some courage under fire, to nominate a candidate that was actually a Democrat, not a wolf in sheeps clothes. But what did all of you do? You caved. You bought the propaganda line from the ruling elite that Howard Dean wasn't electable. Howard Dean was the only candidate running who WAS electable. But that isn't what the mainstream media and the middle class nice people told us was electable. To be electable, one must be nice, not angry. One must not shout, even in circumstances where you have to shout to be heard.

This is the tyranny of Anglo American moderate centrism run amok, and it is killing people. It is wholly indefensible according to my core values. When people cowardly accept murderers as their leaders in order to be polite and not rock the boat, then those people need to be put in their place, which is NOT the Oval Office.

After all, we know "ethnics and working class raving lunatics" are the fiery speakers. "Ethnics and working class raving lunatics" are angry. "Ethnics and working class raving lunatics" aren't electable.

Well, if that is true, then it is true because of the class bigotry, snobbery, racism, and political and social cowardice of the Anglocentric middle class "moderate" voter who keeps voting for the Bushes and the Kerrys of this world. They are the ones who are now up in arms because the ruling elite is taking away their middle class perks that they won at the expense of the working class and the poor under Clinton/Gore and the Democratic Leadership Council.

My response as a working class political independent? Well, to quote Teresa...shove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:58 AM

I liked this one, too:

Edwards speech "moves" Brit Hume

Appreciation for political oratory comes in all forms. During the speeches by Al Sharpton and John Edwards on Wednesday, for instance, the delegates' emotional responses to their words were palpable. As I left the Fleet Center there was a unanimity and upbeat giddiness in the air. Delegates seemed to have been genuinely moved by the speeches and to feel that the party had had a very good night.

As I exited the compound at about 11:15 p.m. I found myself walking next to a trio of familiar faces who had emerged from one of the side doors: Brit Hume, Fred Barnes and Mort Kondracke -- Fox News all-stars all. To my amusement, Kondracke was carrying a Kerry-Edwards sign, and talking about carrying it on the plane back to Washington as a souvenir.

The chance encounter brought me back to four years ago at the Los Angeles Democratic convention, when I had run into Sean Hannity immediately after Al Gore's acceptance speech and he had been cock-a-hoop at what he perceived as a massive mistake by the V.P. "Gore blew it -- he just won over the entire McGovern vote!" So I was aware that the off-camera reactions of conservative commentators can provide a fascinating barometer reading. A misfired Democratic speech is no cause for concern to them. A speech that they think might have connected with Middle America is much more troubling.

So I was fascinated to see that Hume and Barnes in particular looked so glum. Did they perceive that Edwards may have "made the case" to swing voters?

Saying hello and reintroducing myself (I'd met all three men during the 2000 conventions), I fell into step with them as they walked through the light drizzle toward their waiting limos.

"Why the long face, Brit?" I asked. He didn't pause a beat. "I've never experienced a more emotional political night in my life," he said in deadpan style. "Edwards' speech was the most emotional thing I've ever heard in my life. When I heard John Edwards talking about mothers sitting at their kitchen tables I was moved. My heart was moved ... my bowels were moved."

I was somewhat flummoxed by this response, and it was unusual enough that I instantly hit the mental "save" button. I'm not accustomed to hearing about the bowel movements of TV personalities, so the precise wording burned itself into my mind (and five minutes later into my notebook).

"What about you, Fred?" I queried. Hume answered for the moody-looking Barnes. "Al Sharpton's speech got him," said Hume...

-- Martin Lewis

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:33 AM

He's not watching Fox, Fox liked it too

From Salon.com

The pundits on Kerry: He nailed it


The same mainstream talking heads who trashed Gore give Kerry strong notices, and even right-wingers hold their tongues.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Eric Boehlert



July 29, 2004 | If Sen. John Kerry's acceptance speech were the opening night of a Broadway production, it would be doing robust box office business Friday morning. The same talking heads who seemed openly skeptical of the Democratic presidential nominee for much of this week gave his speech strongly positive notices.

On a scale of 1 to 10, ABC's George Stephanopoulos gave Kerry's speech an 8 "as written," and a "7.5 as delivered."


"Face the Nation" host Bob Schieffer said Kerry had "done about as well as he could do to set the stage for what's ahead."





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NBC's Tim Russert credited Kerry for opening himself up during the address. "He gave more of himself than I've ever seen before." He added that Democratic delegates "have seen a candidate who's willing to take the battle to George Bush. Democrats heard what they needed to hear; it's on, full charge ahead."

Time magazine's Joe Klein told CNN Kerry "nailed it" and that he'd "never seen the man speak so well."

Meanwhile, Newsweek's Howard Fineman, appearing on MSNBC, said Kerry "has established the point he's a fighter, a war hero and a real guy. Now it's up to Bush to tear him down."

Some observers might suggest all those pundits have Democratic leanings to begin with, so their praise doesn't mean much. But they were precisely the type of commentators who routinely ridiculed Al Gore's campaign throughout the 2000 race, so the shift is worth noting.

The post-speech analysis got off to a comical start on CNN, when the news channel inadvertently broadcast frantic comments from a Democratic producer in a rage that more balloons were not dropping from the ceiling of the Fleet Center: ""More balloons! We need all of them coming down! All balloons! Balloons? What's happening, balloons? There's not enough coming down. All balloons! Where the hell -- there's nothing falling! What the fuck are you guys doing up there?"

No word yet if any FCC action will be taken against CNN.

Over at MSNBC, Republican pollster Frank Luntz conducted a focus group of 24 voters and found four who voted for Bush in 2000 and, after seeing Kerry, said they would vote for the Democrat in the fall. Luntz suggested Kerry would not see as big a post-convention bounce as Gore did in 2000, and thanks to the convention's relentless focus on military toughness, insisted that "national security is now a positive for this Democratic candidate." (Over on CNN, Washington Post reporter Terry Neal mentioned that a Zogby poll taken right before Kerry's speech indicated Kerry had already picked up a five-point bounce from the week's activities.)

Conservative pundits were notably restrained in critiquing Kerry's address. MSNBC host and former Republican congressman Joe Scarborough critiqued Kerry's style, saying his speech had the "best text" of the week, but not the best presentation. Scarborough suggested Kerry stepped on too many of his applause lines: "If John Kerry had delivered that 'Mission Accomplished' line and stepped away from the microphone the crowd would still be cheering. He blew through the best applause lines in a way Bill Clinton never would have."

The Weekly Standard's Fred Barnes weakly told Fox News viewers that Kerry's "salute wasn't very good." The magazine's editor, Bill Kristol, conceded that Kerry "gave a good speech," adding that it was a "bold and interesting" move to try to "retake patriotism for Democrats."

Some of the right's hesitation to trash Kerry's speech may have stemmed from the fact that immediately following Gore's 2000 convention speech, many conservatives denounced it as a failure. Robert Novak labeled the speech "a flop" and erroneously predicted Gore would come out of the convention facing a six-point deficit in the polls. And the Wall Street Journal's Peggy Noonan wrote, "Al Gore's acceptance speech was a rhetorical failure and, in my view, a strategic blunder of significant proportions."

The conservative pundits ended up with egg on their faces, as the public deemed it a hit and Gore enjoyed a robust and sustained post-convention bounce in the polls.

Kerry's right-wing critics may be holding their tongues, not wanting to pan what could turn out to be another Democratic hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:12 AM

LarryK,

if you insist on only watching FOX News, of course everyone will say Kerry did badly. But in fact most correspondents on most outlets thought he did a superb job.

Check out what the Associated Press reports:

July 30, 2004 | NEW YORK (AP) -- Television commentators gushed in their first response to John Kerry's nomination acceptance speech, while warning the address will be parsed in the weeks ahead for what wasn't said.

"This is the best speech I have ever heard John Kerry ever make," CBS analyst Bob Schieffer said as balloons fluttered down on the Democratic National Convention's closing celebration Thursday night.

Over on ABC, political director Mark Halperin provided an echo: "The best speech I've ever seen John Kerry deliver by a mile."

"There was no Bush bashing in this speech tonight," NBC anchor Tom Brokaw said of Kerry's performance at Boston's FleetCenter, "but lots of lines that brought the crowd to its feet, especially when he talked about the defense secretary and the attorney general."

You can find the rest; just do a google search on the AP's headline:

Television commentators wowed by Kerry

Sorry, Larry K, as usual you're out of touch!

As for GUEST, I wonder how they calculate those "network ratings?" Do they include C-Span, etc?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:03 PM

Hello, Ake. I trust you've been keeping well you dyed-in-the-wool anarchist.

I will ask this again, because my post was neither rhetorical nor tongue in cheek:

"I'd like to hear from anyone about the good things Bush has done for the United States. We all have our views on Iraq, 9/11, Diebold, Halliburton, etc. Let's talk jobs and social programs; let's talk about his approach to medical care in the US. Let's talk about the positives."

If at first you don't succeed . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:39 PM

Well, Art, then I think I do, too... Well, at least I agree with what I said...

But Iz sure I like what "Ponderin' it all" had to say...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:30 PM

Bobert,

I like what I think you're saying. ;-)

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:30 PM

c'mon, ake! "political expediency" or "political cowardice" are guesses as to what he was thinking... I can't read his mind, but I might have done something similar, had I been forced to choose. I like to think I would have said, "No way, Georgie...you are a fool to spend that amount of money with no better plan than you have."...but I wasn't there, and I didn't hear the briefings...

...and:

" surely you cant believe that the sickness of American politics can be cured by changing leaders " ....I never came close to saying that!...I make absolutely no claim that one election will automatically 'fix' everything, but I sure see no hope in keeping THIS administration!
..I saw NO candidate who I thought could fix everything. I think Howard Dean had a slightly better 'feel' for the issues and the steps necessary to address them, but he might not have gotten enough support, given his tendency to polarize a crowd.. (where was Tom Daschle, or Mario Cuomo...just too smart to get caught up in this farce?)

As far as 'general governing' and making decisions, there were several Democratic candidates who might have done fine...Kerry might do fine, I dunno...

In this general climate and world situation, it is difficult to imagine any US politican as president who could even imagine all the problems facing us...much less find solutions.

If there were no war, and no one hated us and was trying to disrupt out economy and kill us at random, there would STILL be enormous problems to solve...and NO politican will even talk publicly about some of them!

The USA is a VERY large, diverse country, and two (or 2½ or 3...whatever) political parties cannot begin to represent the various viewpoints. Some areas (Texas, Southern California, the deep south, the Pacific North-West) are almost different entities when it comes to these issues...but we have a pragmatic problem....right now, EITHER Bush or Kerry is going to get the job...we can at least avoid a known evil and hope while we plan and debate ways to improve the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,Pondering lt All
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:27 PM

Don't you see...admitting you were wrong and then doing the right thing is not viewed as strong. God forbid Bush admit he might have been wrong. Yet it's there for all to see. 9/11 had nothing to do with Bush going after Iraq. He'd have done it anyway. What exactly is his exit policy? He was all about Shock and Awe. How fucking arrogant. Spent a lot of money and made a lot of people rich. Even his father did it better. The 78 billion he tried to bribe Turkey with to launch his war on Iraq would have gone a long way to make sure no child was left behind. Funny how there's 78 billion to bribe Turkey with, but not enough to really help education or the problems of heatlh care. If America really wants the rest of the world to emulate us, hadn't we better show them how to do it by fixing our own faults? It seems that education, health care and jobs are just buzz-words used by politicians. America will never really have the respect of the rest of the world until we really show them why our system and way of life is better. As for the Arab/Muslim problem, why has no one suggested sitting down and talking with these people and find out what exactly is pissing them off. Is it really that they just hate us? They just hate freedom? I don't think so. I think they hate our policies. And the world will never be safe until we accept that we cannot force our way of life on others. We need to show them how it works in reality not just on fancy old parchment.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:49 PM

Well, I missed the Convention and all the woof-woof speeches because my wife informed me that we we're gonna spend the week in a cabin in the mountains of Wes Ginny. Ahhhh, I said, "P-Vine, that's where we live!" but then she brought up the "D" word (as in deevorce) so I paked the Toyotar and it was off to a cabin a couple hunner miles down into the middle o' Wes Ginny wid no TV 'er radio...

... but I read the speech on the way home after finding a Washington Post and I was thinkin' if I was getting paid * a lot* by Kerry to help him with a strategy fir beating Bush, this speech is about what I woulda come up with...

"Shoot, you think Georgie Porgie can kill? You ain't seen nuthin' yet. I've done it and (spit) I'll do it again!"

I'm sure the neocons is burnin' the midnight oil tonight 'cause if I was them I sho nuff would! I mean, lets face it. Bush is a coward and wiesel. Kerry is just a wiesel but one with a few notches carved on his gun handle.... Hmmmmmm? This ain't exactly Wes Ginny Slide Rule stuff here...

Like I said, poor ol' Karl Rove is gonna be gettin' a lot less sleep in the coming weeks...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:48 PM

I figure the more the Bushies speak against Kerrys war record the more scared they are. The more they talk about Kerry the more the public will see that they have no successes to run on.

For all practical purposes, Gore won the election last time, For a lot of voters Bush has been on probation for four years and he hasn't earned the right to stay. To win the election Kerry has to do two things, convince the public that he won't make the same mistakes Bush did. Show us that he will fight al Qaeda and get through three next there months without a major gaffe. Considering those goals, his speech was PERFECT!!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:20 PM

I would say a good way to judge the effectiveness and appeal of this man is by the intensity of the response from his adversaries. GUEST gives us one side, and the conservative Repub's give us another. There is reason for hope.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 08:18 PM

Akenaton---I assume you are replying to Bill D and not myself---Bill H. Correct?


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 07:59 PM

Nothing cowardly about it to say "That step turned out to have been wrong, based on what we learned when we took it. So I am changing my mind.". How obsessively right does a leader have to be about being wrong? Why not just change your position and move on?

There is a very large difference between abandoning principles and changing your policy because of new information, still cleaving to 6the same principles. The latter describves Kerry. The former, Bush.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 07:34 PM

Well Bill, I read your explanation,but it still sounds like political cowardice to me,and the "contingency" being political expediancy.

You always seemed to me an intelligent man, surely you cant believe that the sickness of American politics can be cured by changing leaders and doing nothing about the "machinery"...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 07:15 PM

That is what I liked----solutions are not always simple (paraphrase). W. loves speaking in headlines --his attention span probably---and Cheney wields the right side of the mouth speaking ax.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 07:04 PM

Good words from a decent man.

NOT WISHY-WASHY at all. Kerry is simply a pragmatist who has the intelligence to change his mind when the facts indicate that that is the correct thing to do. I admire the trait that some call vascillating.

Yes, he went to Viet Nam, and while there did the best he could in an insane situation. When he saw the wrong-headedness of that war, he had the strength to be wishy-washy --- and change his mind. That is hard as hell to do in a platoon marching toward the battle lines, but afterwards the statement that was made by the vets against that war showed me that this man, John Kerry, is one of those that could possibly try to do some of what we might want our president to do. Still, it's admirable that his support of those now in harms way in Iraq and Afghanistgan is realistic and not simpliatic.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:56 PM

well, ake, I explained what I meant ...but once more.. Bush said he HAD good evidence Saddam had WMDs and plans to use them...Kerry's vote said, in essence, "ok...if that is true, then I'll give you the $87 billion in the name of peace, stability and a united front".....then later, when that 'evidence' began to look mighty suspicious, vote #2 said "hold on...this is getting awkward, and I now withdraw what little confidence I had in this war." That means, "I'll give you $$$ to see what you can prove *contingent* on some results."

Results? Iraq with a devastated infrastructure, a bunch of Muslims that hate our guts enough to kill each other while killing us, NO WMDs, no oil for the forseeable future...and no reasonable way to stay IN and reasonable way to get OUT. If I were running for president, I'd sure like to have both of Kerry's votes on record..."I tried to support the administration when it claimed to know what it was doing, but I sure didn't continue to support it when the shit hit the fan!"

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:46 PM

Sorry Don ....Now Iv upset everybody ...I must change my name to Martin...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:42 PM

"Don?" Ake, who are you addressing? I can't relate what you're saying to any posts I've made on this thread. Maybe you have either the wrong thread or the wrong person.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:39 PM

A few thoughts-=--forgive me if I repeat some above posts---and I do agree with Sinsull---those 2 daughters were amazing. Now, they are not running for office, but given the family values one speaks of they sure are a cut above the Bush "cupcakes" and their sticking out of tongue at reporters because "..isn't that cute". Moronic is a better word. Great upbringing---they should hide those 2 for Ws own good.

The speech, was to me, far more eloquent than I had expected---it seemed Presidential (as was his entrance---properly stage managed, I am sure--but we live in the TV era) The phrasing, the wording, and the timing were truly wonderful. Frankly, I thought it a better speech than Edwards. Edwards is a great communicator but still comes across--to me---as a lawyer presenting his case for damages to the jury. That said---he is awfully good at that.

As to the commentators in their post-mortems. I am still surprised (admittedly I only watched it on PBS---not many choices prior so stay loyal--I say) by the partisanship of these pundits. I know the NY Times writer is of conservative bent but it would be nice if he could bend a bit and agree about the speech and its effect instead of the nit picking of minor things.

One fault though---I did think that Kerry stepped on his laugh and applause lines too much. I don't know if it was a time limitation, his lack of showmanship, or something else.   A speaker and a performer should never do that---let the audience really respond.


I doubt that we will ever go back to conventions as we knew them---when things were decided on the floor, when oratory was in full flower, and when they were not infomercials and party time for the delegates.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:30 PM

Sorry Bill ...I forgot who I was talking to..Now ,where the hell have I left my specs??...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:27 PM

And by the way Don...How the hell do you vote yes for war ,on a contingency basis.....is that a daring stab at irony ..or what

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:23 PM

We are listening Don, but you still havn't made a case that Kerry will be any better as leader than Bush was.
Its Business interests who make the agenda,the politicians carry out their wishes.

Politicians always "talk a good game" before election....Look what happened in Britain with Blair and New Labour.   After election they took a position somewhat right of the Conservatives.
It all comes back to the point that democracy is dead in America and Britain,and our rulers now KNOW that they can do whatever they please without the consent of the people....as long as the game of "musical chairs" continues...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:04 PM

I see I'm WAY behind...but..

" I'm still waiting for Amos, or any of you Kerry voters, to explain the Iraq exit strategy of the Kerry/Edwards team to me."

*tsk*..NO one but Dennis Kuscinitch had an exit policy, and his was just to pack up & leave it to 'em. Kerry had said that he intends to make it easier for other countries to GIVE us some help while we try to balance the problems of staying in with the problems of leaving suddenly. What more can he do? Bush has committed our nation to be involved in Iraq sooner and to a greater degree than was sensible...he has made a royal mess, and getting out is gonna be HARD...and "we Kerry voters" don't trust Bush to GET us out in any reasonable way.

I must also comment on a couple other things:

1) in politics a "yes" vote is certainly not always a vote 'for' something. It can be an attempt to show a united front, it can represent giving someone the benefit of the doubt..as in "ok, try it your way, but watch out"... a number of Democrats said "ok, you say you have evidence about Saddam...I'll vote 'yes' on a contingency basis"
2) Why do we hate Bush so much? What has he done to us?.....Mercy! Where shall I start?...He has inserted his personal religious & moral beliefs directly into the political process. He has sacrificed environmental concerns for the benefit of big business interests. He has alienated most of the world, including many allies, with his military policies, and hints that he will use similar tactics on others if they don't behave to suit him...but NOT the REALLY dangerous ones like N. Korea. He has RUINED the balanced budget the previous administration brought us and given us debt beyond belief...and is chipping away at Social Security with vague plans of 'privitization'. He is, at every opportunity, appointing judges who make mockeries of the basics of our judicial process, and is waiting to pounce on the Supreme Court. He acts as though he had a sweeping mandate, after LOSING the popular vote and only avoiding having Florida re-counted carefully by the skin of his teeth, his brother's clout, and one of those mockeries of the judicial process I mentioned.

that enough? I have more, but you probably aren't listening anyway.....oh...yeah...He absolutely refuses to learn to say "nuclear"   *grin*...(Well, maybe I am too harsh on him there--perhaps he really can't hear the difference.)

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 05:59 PM

It is one gigantic con, but I wouldn't say the majority of Americans realizes that.

More of them watched Paris Hilton on Fox, and the new reality series "Amish in the City" than the convention.

Those numbers do explain, however, how the majority of Americans came to believe that Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 05:26 PM

Brucie my friend ....Glad to see you back.

From this side of the Atlantic,there dosn't seem to be many "positives" attached to US politics,as Guest says it just seems like one gigantic con...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 05:24 PM

Network ratings for Edwards' speech on Wednesday night were down 11% from Monday night (the night Clinton spoke).

Overall network ratings are down 20% from the 2000 DNC. Ratings for Kerry's speech aren't in yet, but these numbers aren't exactly screaming "For the first time in a long time, we have a real campaign. And it will be one of the most interesting in years."

It looks to me like not many Americans WANT to know about John Kerry.

And isn't it good to see that Kerry/Edwards can't even fire up their own party base enough to get them to watch their coronation. Hell, the primaries had better numbers than this.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 05:12 PM

I'd like to hear from anyone about the good things Bush has done for the United States. We all have our views on Iraq, 9/11, Diebold, Halliburton, etc. Let's talk jobs and social programs; let's talk about his approach to medical care in the US. Let's talk about the positives.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 05:09 PM

I have been reading Guests' posts carefully and he is not supporting Bush against Kerry, as some of you have tried to insinuate, but trying to point out the lack of "Democracy" in the political process.
The attitude of you old timers in abusing someone who is only putting across his opinion in moderate language, is frankly disgusting.
Where is all the tolerance and free speech that Mudcat is supposed to be famous for?

I am a member here, and i feel it is my right to state my agreement with Guest.

As a Scot, Two things bother me about the Kerry platform.
I dont understand how it can be looked on as beneficial to place such emphasis on Kerrys' volunteering for a war which is now discredited throughout the world.

And how can intelligent people vote for a party which fell in behind Bushs' criminal war in Iraq.
They had the chance to oppose ,and gain the respect of the world,instead they showed themselves to be as self serving as the Republicans,and twice as cowardly.

Try thinking with bothsides of your brain before condemning...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 05:03 PM

Hey, Amos, them ad hominums go good with black-eyed peas, collard greens and hog jowls.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:57 PM

I'd like to hear from anyone about the good things Bush has done for the United States. We all have our views on Iraq, 9/11, Diebold, Halliburton, etc. Let's talk jobs and social programs; let's talk about his approach to medical care in the US. Let's talk about the positives.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:51 PM

I think LarryK and Guest are sorry-ass cross-eyed merchants of bile who wouldn't know a straight-forward position if it came forward and bit them.

That's my ad hominem argument for the day! :>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:47 PM

I say mention of "thread hijacking" earlier in this thread. FYI, I've never seen good come form arguing with unidentified GUESTs I don't read thier posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:44 PM

Larry K,

Thanks for the report on Rush Limbagh's reaction. Thanks for pointing out that those who have always been against Kerry and who didn't watch the speech are still against Kerry and the speech.

Most of the analysts I saw, including neocon and Bush supporter William Krystol said that Kerry gave a very good speech. Which analysts did you survey?

Zel Miller is a nut job. I hope he's up for re-election this year and an actual Democrat of at least a sane Republican is running against him.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:34 PM

Here ya go, PoppaGator...

Cobb/LaMarche Green Party 2004

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:25 PM

OK, and while we're at it, let's talk about John Kerry's record since the 2000 election, and throw in a bit of the record under Clinton for good measure, shall we?

Let's see, he voted FOR the Bush tax cuts.

He voted FOR Bush's No Child Left Behind Act.

He voted FOR Bush's Patriot Act.

He voted FOR Bush's war on Iraq resolution.

Kerry, like Bush, has been unequivocal in his support for the Sharon government.

Kerry is one of the US government's biggest champions of GATT and NAFTA, espousing a policy of "Progressive Internationalism" in order to globalize with US pre-eminence.

Voted YES on permanent normal trade relations with China, despite their abysmal human rights record, and pleas from the international human rights community. Apparently his brand of internationalism only applies to free trade that benefits US.

Voted to ban "soft money" contributions and restrict issue ads. He is now setting new soft money records having 527 organizations run his attack "issue" ads.

Favors passing legislation for catastrophic health coverage for all costs over $50,000. Apparently 49,999 isn't catastrophic to rich, wealthy white guys.

Voted yes on medical savings acounts. We'll all need them to pay the catastrophic health care costs up to $49,999.

Favors raising the federal minimum wage to $6.65 by next year. Now there's a living wage for you. What a bloody generous guy. Wonder what his stand is on capping CEO's salaries and perks?

His party credentials:

--Supports Hyde Park Declaration of "Third Way" centrism
--Member of Democratic Leadership Council
--New Democrat: "Third Way" instead of left-right debate
--Member of the Senate New Democrat Coalition

If you liked Clinton, you're gonna LOVE Kerry.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:23 PM

Can we get back to the speech.   I didn't watch it, but the "reporting for duty" line was all over talk radio this morning as callers were making fun of it on various radio stations.   Each caller would start the conversation "John Doe" reporting for duty. Many speculated that the still picture of him saluting will end up being like the Dukakis tank ad.

I also like the CPR for the hampster story.   At first I thought it was an Imus or SNL parody.   But than I heard the actual tape.   As Tom Paxton said "sometimes you don't have to parody a person. you just quote them"   Rush Limbauch has aleady come up with a new John Kerry Theme for his updates. He is using the mighty mouse theme to parody the Kerry comment.   Following the hamster audio, it was very funny.

The Oliphant column on the Drudge report calls the speech a "missed opportunity"   Talks about a poor performance by Kerry where the big applause lines were the Civil rights lines which are not part of the issues Kerry is campaigning on.

Now about viet nam- Kerry stated in the New York Times two years ago that he would never use viet nam or movies of viet nam in his campaign.    And Alec Baldwin said he would move out of the country if Bush were elected.   If only you liberals would keep your word. (is that a lie or a flip flop- it is so hard to tell with Kerry. With Clinton it was easy- it was a lie. With Kerry you never know.   He is on both sides of every issue)

Most analyists say Kerry was the worst prime time speaker at the convention.    Who was worse than Kerry- Sharpton, Baraka, Kennedy, Theresa, Kucinich, or Edwards?   BTW-Kucinich on O'relly was histerical- I digagree with every one of his postions but am still supporting him.    Bush lied about WMD's, but Kerry didn't lie because the CIA worked for Bush when the misinformed him.    You just can't make this stuff up. Even SNL is not that creative.

Unfit for Duty- the book by the soldiers who service with Kerry and blast him as a phone and a fraud comes out Sept 25 and is # 2 on Amazon- enjoy.   Can't wait for the Zel MIller speech at the republican convention on how the democrats have abandoned America.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:15 PM

Cobb? Who Dat?

Not someone likely to win, I assume.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 04:00 PM

I'd like to hear from anyone about the good things Bush has done for the United States. We all have our views on Iraq, 9/11, Diebold, Halliburton, etc. Let's talk jobs and social programs; let's talk about his approach to medical care in the US. Let's talk about the positives.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:41 PM

At today's Common Dreams website, there is a reprint of an article by Naomi Klein from the Guardian, that expresses my reservations about this whole sorry "Anybody But Bush" episode...

"It was "Bush in a Box" that finally got me, a gag gift my brother gave my father on his 66th birthday. Bush in a Box is a cardboard cut-out of President 43 with a set of adhesive speech balloons featuring the usual tired Bushisms: "Is our children learning?" "They misunderestimated me" - standard-issue Bush-bashing schlock, on sale at Wal-Mart, made in Malaysia.

Yet Bush in a Box filled me with despair. It's not that the president is dumb, which I already knew, it's that he makes us dumb. Don't get me wrong: my brother is an exceptionally bright guy; he heads a think-tank that publishes weighty policy papers on the failings of export-oriented resource extraction and the false savings of cuts to welfare. Whenever I have a question involving interest rates or currency boards, he's my first call. But Bush in a Box pretty much summarizes the level of analysis coming from the left these days. You know the line: The White House has been hijacked by a shady gang of zealots who are either insane or stupid or both. Vote Kerry and return the country to sanity.

But the zealots in Bush's White House are neither insane nor stupid nor particularly shady. Rather, they openly serve the interests of the corporations that put them in office with bloody-minded efficiency. Their boldness stems not from the fact that they are a new breed of zealot but that the old breed finds itself in a newly unconstrained political climate.

We know this, yet there is something about George Bush's combination of ignorance, piety and swagger that triggers a condition in progressives I've come to think of as Bush Blindness. When it strikes, it causes us to lose sight of everything we know about politics, economics and history and to focus exclusively on the admittedly odd personalities of the people in the White House. Other side-effects include delighting in psychologists' diagnoses of Bush's warped relationship with his father and brisk sales of Bush "dum gum" - $1.25.

This madness has to stop, and the fastest way of doing that is to elect John Kerry, not because he will be different but because in most key areas - Iraq, the "war on drugs", Israel/Palestine, free trade, corporate taxes - he will be just as bad. The main difference will be that as Kerry pursues these brutal policies, he will come off as intelligent, sane and blissfully dull. That's why I've joined the Anybody But Bush camp: only with a bore such as Kerry at the helm will we finally be able to put an end to the presidential pathologizing and focus on the issues again.

Of course, most progressives are already solidly in the Anybody But Bush camp, convinced that now is not the time to point out the similarities between the two corporate-controlled parties. I disagree. We need to face up to those disappointing similarities, and then we need to ask ourselves whether we have a better chance of fighting a corporate agenda pushed by Kerry or by Bush."

I haven't caved and decided to switch my vote to Kerry. I just can't be that bloody cynical and jaded. But I have decided to switch my vote. From Nader to Cobb.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:35 PM

'Bye.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:30 PM

Oh Goody! I'm getting sent to the Mudcat Free Speech Zone again!

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:29 PM

I agree, Thomas.

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: saulgoldie
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:28 PM

Seconded, Kat. Wait, hasn't this been tried before?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:16 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:11 PM

A long time ago most agreed it was best not to feed the trolls. THIS one has over-fed like a bloated tick on a fat dog. How about we put her back on a starvation diet and NOT respond, ya'll?

Subject: RE: BS: Great Speech Mr. Kerry!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:02 PM

Kerry has lied to the American people too. Truth telling isn't something you expect from presidents. Kerry's lies will cost lives too. They already are. He is lying when he says he believed what the intelligence was saying about Iraq in the run up to the war. He is lying about the Patriot Act.

COME ON PEOPLE. Just because you all have decided to buy a used car from Richard Nixon doesn't mean those of us who haven't are the crazy, raving lunatics here.

The new would-be emperor is wearing the same outfit as the emperor you are trying to rid yourselves of.