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BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 30 Mar 05 - 02:56 PM Of course, post at 02:40 PM was from shitforbrainsgnu. Forgot to sign in at the back door. My bad. Ya know, recalling an old thread like that minds me of the time I transgressed when I called mousethief "pussy whipped". I thought nothing of it, except that I thought I was being humourous, but I was wrong... WAY wrong. I did take offense to the slapping I got and might have responded poorly but a 'Cat PM'd me to explain why this was a transgression of epic proportion. I apologized once I understood. Again, that's the Café I know... allowing someone to save face by educating them as to "why" rather than trashing them. Of course, if they don't listen, trash 'em. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 30 Mar 05 - 02:40 PM katlaughing... NOW!!! There's the breath of fresh air I'm talking about! And Dave's post is excellent as well (I didn't have time to read much further, but I will). That's the "Café" I know. If you can't ignore 'em, Eminem 'em. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,katlaughing coming through the backdoor Date: 30 Mar 05 - 02:16 PM gnu, no need to apologise, imo...this has helped to define, once again, some important points. THIS is just for you, in case you missed it.**bg** kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,John Hardly Date: 30 Mar 05 - 02:08 PM Absolutely. The line has been crossed. I wouldn't want to be misunderstood in that regard. I just don't want to see the measures necessary to deal with the truly vile being construed to apply to me (again). I understand that I'm here by the owner's good graces. I have no basis of ownership or membership upon which to make my appeal, so I make it on the basis of an appeal for fairness. Mostly though, this thread is reminding me (as it should -- a good thing) that if this stuff matters too much to me, it is probably because my own participation here has tipped away from what I enjoy -- creative writing and music -- and toward passions of belief that I really don't NEED to be sharing. I which case, my bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 30 Mar 05 - 02:07 PM In my not so humble opinion, if you don't know what is acceptable and what is not, you need to go somewhere and grow up. Your lack of impulse control should not be our problem, and if you need to crap in the sand box, get your own sand box. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,gnu Date: 30 Mar 05 - 02:05 PM My apologies. I said, in the initial post : "I'm not asking for discussion and I won't post to this thread again, except to refresh it so it stays on the board for a few days." Little did I know. I started this thread for two reasons only. First, in hope that members and guests who had not yet read the FAQ's would do so. Second, that it might serve as a reminder to those who have read the FAQ's, myself included. That's why I said I wasn't looking for discussion. Obviously, I was not clear in my intentions and I am saddened by the fact that my good intentions have spawned another thread of discord. It's almost as if I was a troll. I also said I wouldn't post to this thread again. Under the circumstances, I felt I should say something to explain why I started this thread. If anyone takes umbrage because I have broken this vow, well, rough ass, as we say up in the backwoods. Again, my apologies. Sincerely, g |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,CarolC Date: 30 Mar 05 - 01:53 PM Over the last three years or so, I've tended to stay away from discussions about flamers and trolls and abusive posters, because I have had some ambivalence on this subject. But I find myself one hundred percent behind Joe and Mick on this one. There is such a thing as going too far, and in my opinion, that line has been crossed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 30 Mar 05 - 12:49 PM Except for those screaming about censorship, coming into Mudcat today is like inhaling fresh air for the very first time after being born into this world of polluted air and water and degraded environments---and that is all I've ever known. I'm with Kat and Mick and Joe. But I've advocated for more serious forms of site moderation for several years. I appreciate the changes. ART THIEME |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad Date: 30 Mar 05 - 12:47 PM There is a huge difference between saying that someone's ideas are full of shit and telling them that they personally are full of shit. The first one I would allow and the the second one I would delete. And I thought that was a Mudcat guideline - if I've misunderstood someone please inform me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,another clone Date: 30 Mar 05 - 12:17 PM I have thought for sometime we should {BLEEP] really offensive posts (those that are both vulgar and personal)like many of MG's, but waited for guidance from Joe. There is no sense to such behavior, and I hope this sends a message that argument and disagreement are one thing, while nastiness for its own sake is bad for the forum: even worse than moderate censorship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 30 Mar 05 - 11:12 AM th nk we should censor all the 's. :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,joeclone Date: 30 Mar 05 - 10:38 AM John Hardly, for myself and at least 3-4 of the other clones I know of, I'd say we are more likely to do just the opposite of what you think... we go out of our way to make sure we are as unbiased as possible when looking at offensive postings. In fact, when I see one by someone whom I know I have a less than favoarable opinion of, I refer it to Joe or Jeff, rather than take any action myself. In other words, most of us bend over backwards to be as non-judgemental as possible. I think it is important that folks remember joeclones came about BEFORE folks could preview their own postings and our primary duties were to delete duplicate postings and make corrections in links and other mistakes, most times at the request of the poster. Since the preview function has been added there really hasn't been a whole lot for us to do. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,John Hardly Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:40 AM "Genuine trolls aren't people with unpopular opinions, or who lose their temper in the course of discussion, I suggest. They are people who say things which they believe will provoke discord or anger, and with the specific aim of sowing discord and provoking anger." I agree. I am merely questioning whether that is the working definition by which the actions of the clones is dictated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:33 AM Genuine trolls aren't people with unpopular opinions, or who lose their temper in the course of discussion, I suggest. They are people who say things which they believe will provoke discord or anger, and with the specific aim of sowing discord and provoking anger. Nothing to do with having any specific beliefs about the actual issues or controversies they choose to dabble around in. The phrase that sometimes gets used as a kind of triumphant sneer when this succeeds is "like shooting fish in a barrel". Flamers on the other hand probably do have some kind of beliefs, but they think that the way to express this, when confronted by people who disagree with them, is to launch into full attack mode, which in some cases can mean foul-mouthed and personal attacks which go way over any reasonable limits, as cited by Big Mick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Amos Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:32 AM Anonymously, in the best tradition of fearful passive-aggressive whinery. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: John Hardly Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:21 AM I guess I should be more clear. I do see examples of conservatives (political or religious) being labelled as "troll". To that extent, at least, I agree with susu's hubby. It's a fact. What's unclear, but I feel is true (so it may be little more than my pespective) there is less likelihood that someone from the left is likely to be labeled a "troll" merely for their point of view as is the case with a conservative. This, coupled with the fact that, of the clones that I know, they are, to a (wo)man, liberal. Given that conservatives are more likely to be called "trolls", who do you honestly think stands the greater likelihood of being censored by a clone? And what that leaves us to decide is -- do the clones act on the same kind of inequitable perspective (as does the general mudcat population) about who is trolling (conservatives) an who is not (liberals). I got a "you are trolling, John" email from a clone. I took great offense at a thread (a few years ago) that asked the question "Are Missionaries Terrorists". I have MANY friends -- doctors, engineers, dentists, contractors, who spend full or part-time in the third world as missionaries giving of their time and labor to make the lives of those less fortunate more comfortable. What's more, the "Are Missionaries Terrorists" thread was started anonymously. That was corrected later in the thread -- but what's germane to the discussion here -- that correction (the anonymous poster came forward) occurred AFTER this action against me was taken by the clone. The thread angered me. But rather than respond with anger to a trolling thread -- that's what we generally call a thread like that -- started by an anonymous poster -- and we've pretty much agreed that we don't respond to those threads, I instead started a thread with the intent to show the absurdity of the "terrorist" label/accusation of the trolling thread. My thread was "Is Television terrorist" and I posted something about horrible TV shows. The clone kept the truly trolling, anonymous thread in tact and deleted mine and sent me an email and a PM scolding me for "trolling". I'm not saying that the whole incident didn't work out for good. In fact, it ended up being one of the best threads that the mudcat has ever produced ... but that doesn't change what I still think was a very strange inequity -- an inequity that still colors how fair a "shake" I think I would be likely to get if the forum became even more censored. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:58 AM And I swore at him too. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:57 AM Bullshit I haven't been censored. Max has personally blocked my IP, when I've challenged his authority, and pointed out the emperor has no clothes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Big Mick Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:57 AM There you go. Don't deal with the substance, just whine. Same old, same old. Read the post again, this time for comprehension. Martin's language is part, but the larger issue is what he attacks, such as the parent suffering the loss. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:51 AM Oh yes, let's censor the swear words too. Let's make "foul language" a Mudcat decency standard. That will make it all better. It isn't Martin Gibson's use of vulgar language that is the problem with Martin Gibson. He could just as easily be an abusive bully without using foul language, as you and Joe Offer have so ably demonstrated over and over here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Big Mick Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:49 AM fancy words, MN, that a simple examination of the forum will show are not factual. You have not been censored, but you have been challenged on your points of view. You act as though you are tough and controversial, but when you are challenged on your views, you whine about bullies. I believe you are an ivory tower liberal. Full of finger pointing, short on ideas. Susu's Hubby has a philosophy that flies in the face of many here. There is nothing wrong with that. But when one starts moaning because the majority disagree with your views, that is just whining. MG is a different kettle. If you can't see that, then you are blind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: katlaughing Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:49 AM Sorry, John, but I have to strongly disagree with you when you say, we have abided the anonymous poster from Minnesota simply because they present the majority (liberal) opinion here. I am as liberal as they come, but NOT narrow-minded and not on any kind of one track agenda. In fact, liberal to me, means to be open to other points of views. Note, I didn't say I have to agree with them or like them, just be open to listening/reading them. The poster from Minnesota is none of what I would consider liberal. They are just someone who knows how to copy and paste what they think of as the "party" line and have a small-mindedness about anything divergent. So...that poster certainly does NOT "present" my liberal opinions. For that, one need only go back and read my op/ed pieces in old copies of the "Liberal Opinion Week." kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,Anon from MN Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:45 AM John Hardly, the Mudcat liberals hate me because I'm much farther to the left than they would like anyone to be. Which in their mind, puts me right alongside the conservative Bush/Bircher/Calvinist types. I agree that Susu's Hubby has sussed out the forum dynamic for labelling people trolls and flamers, though. As I've said for a long time, the problem here is two particular forum moderators are bullies. When you have bullies in positions of authority, you get a dysfunctional dynamic, like we have here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Big Mick Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:45 AM GUEST, I am not the one editing those posts. I support blocking the ISP as well. I understand why it is being done, and it is nothing more than what has always been the case. Funny how a person can come to this place, use the most horrible language available, cause almost unbearable sadness to a person suffering the worst loss imaginable, and you defend that person and call us bullies for saying that it must end. I have never hid behind anonymity and I don't intend to start. The line must be drawn somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: John Hardly Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:41 AM I don't think it would be that hard to find actual examples of susu's hubby being labeled a "troll" here. I'm almost postive that I've read at least somebody referring to him that way. And the point he makes it true none-the-less. There are trolls and then there are those who are called trolls simply because it is easier than trying to argue with their well-reasoned and presented, but divergent posts. I've not only seen other "conservatives" come and go -- each suffering the label "troll" while, conversely, have observed as we have abided the anonymous poster from Minnesota simply because they present the majority (liberal) opinion here. I know that the opinions here on the mudcat are not monolithic -- but they are strongly one-sided in this regard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:14 AM Oh god. Are we supposed to be impressed that Martin Gibson's posts are being censored for "antisocial behavior"? Why not be a real man and just block the fuckers ISP? Answer: you need another bully on the block to make your own (and Big Mick's) bullying of forum users look better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Big Mick Date: 30 Mar 05 - 07:57 AM SH, I have never thought of you as a troll. But then you never use the language and vile references that this other one uses. Are you of the opinion that when one disagrees with you it is OK to refer to them as a "cunt". Do you feel that the essence of debate and discussion is to reference a lost child and blame the parent for the death? I am happy that we have conservative posters, it gives me someone to debate the issues with. In fact, some have actually changed how I view certain subjects. But this vile man goes beyond any norm of decency, and acts like it is just shock language. It is not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Susu's Hubby Date: 30 Mar 05 - 07:17 AM I, too, have been labeled as a troll on more than a few occasions. I think it really has to do with what you believe and how you state it. In this little web community, you have a lot of people that think and believe in a certain way. That's fine. But when somebody comes in and defies that way of thinking, then automatically they are labeled as a "troll" or "flamer." It could be a way to dodge the really tough questions and not have to answer them. I don't know. It may be that there is no way to argue effectively against a point that someone has made so a troll label is thrown out and everyone migrates towards another topic to take the pressure off of everyone else. That seems to be the popular method shown around here lately. Martin, from time to time, has posted some brilliant messages and he gets his message across by using sarcasm and actually trying to put the problem into perspective. Even Amos, from time to time, lists some pretty thought provoking posts. Everybody posts in their own style and what they think will work best and communicate what they are actually trying to say. To label someone as a troll or flamer is to take the easy way out and ignore the topic at hand. It's really a sad way to live. Hubby |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Big Mick Date: 30 Mar 05 - 07:01 AM Nothing new here, except the methodology used. Personal attacks not allowed. Calling someone a "cunt" or suggesting to a bereaved parent that their baby died in their arms and it was their fault, simply are not allowed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Stu Date: 30 Mar 05 - 05:41 AM Sorry for being thick, but is that bleeping done by Joe? I thought everyone had found a way of formatting their posts with colour - seems like a good idea but could end up with Mudcat looking like a migraine. For my two penneth, I think offensive posters show their true colours when they post and most people see through it. Some of these posters are capable of reasoned and intelligent argument, even if I personally find their views a tad unpalatable. This is an excellent site and far from a dysfuntional family in my opinion, but merely a reflection of the societies we live in, and here we all are dealing with it as best we can. I love the varied opinions, snippets of wisdom and advice on bouzouki chords. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Mar 05 - 05:18 AM Dealing with Flamers and Trolls Requires that we keep self-control So if that is too much then It's best not to touch them, Not even with ten-foot long poles. For those Trolls and those Flamers Are sometimes the same as The people who call For the heavens to fall And for vengeance to come from on high. So it's better perhaps To be sensible chaps And to wander on by With a tolerant sigh, And in time (who can say?) They may go on their way, Or else they'll remain, Settle down and complain At the next lot of Flamers and Trolls. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,The Shambles Date: 30 Mar 05 - 03:20 AM Perhaps this "antisocial behavior" can first be defined for us - before we also fall foul of it? Or does this only apply to certain posters?
If you can't figure out an answer for yourself, I think all I'll say is No CommentI hope the person targeted learns his lesson soon. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Once Famous Date: 29 Mar 05 - 10:54 PM [bleep] (for antisocial behavior)I'm not yelling fire, moron. I'm yelling that you are just bullshit. Take that to court, pal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:47 PM The U.S. Supreme Court ruled long ago that yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater is not freedom of speech. So, you don't get to say whatever you want to say. Only people who suffer from Turetts Syndrome get away with outbursts of filth. Hmmm, maybe that's your problem! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:41 PM And Nazi Germany would be a good place for you |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Once Famous Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:35 PM Art [bleep] (for antisocial behavior) Your live baby of socialism in the country highlight why you will always be a failure. Your baby was killed by common sense and values that this country was founded on. You are a square peg in a round hole.
But everyone knows that at this point you are just a callous, bitter man and you are just pining for what thankfully never happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:33 PM Martin's just a misinformed rabbit, like Amos says(what's the latin word for rabbit...)very funny Amos....what an image. Actually, Martin is learning but he is so young yet... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:26 PM Yep, Martin, you've got me pegged. But you are wrong. So is Bush. And the old term "USERY" ought to be brought back even though it was said to be a no-longer-working terminology for the excesses of run-away capitalism and corporate greed. The things you love about America are anathema to about 50% of this country. Bush, you and your cohorts are the reasons so many of us sincerely humane people grieve profusely while the real and important values of the last century have been aborted with the live baby that was the many positive aspects of Socialism. And I need no shock verbage to see or say what you are. Your own pronouncements highlight your every failing. Love, Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Once Famous Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:15 PM [bleep] (for antisocial behavior)Anus, you want to start again, I'm ready. As far as Calcutta goes, never been there. As far as your CD goes, at least one Mudcatter sent me a PM and said you sound like a goat braying along with a Glenn Yarbrough record. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Amos Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:10 PM Actually MG lives in Calcutta and makes his living doing body piercing for upper-class teenagers from a little 8 x 10 four-bit store front. He just comes here to practice his English, using lines from porno and sado-maschistic films he has borrowed from the bootlegger stall next door. He has a wife who weighed 150 when he married her but now weighs 250, and has given him four small children all under the age of ten. He wanted to be a ricksha runner but he couldn't pass the physical. MG's real name is Rapu. He goes barefoot and drinks mint tea. Ask me how I know all this? The same way he knows all the scurrilous things he saus about others. He just knows 'em. It's kinda like having an invisible rabbit, only one with body odor and bad manners. :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Once Famous Date: 29 Mar 05 - 09:02 PM [bleep] (for antisocial behavior)That's not a public forum. It's a forum for assholes only who only hear what they want to hear. This place is the best format for saying what you want to say. Just think, maybe you will continue to have people misunderstand you and you will get kicked out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:50 PM You misunderstood me, MG. I was suggesting that we should adopt that same policy here. Say, 5 negative votes and you are out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Once Famous Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:44 PM No, our cat is 10 and is a sweetie. Never was in the tee shirt business. [bleep] (for antisocial behavior)Did you finally give up being a pimp? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:41 PM Nice try, MG. How'd you finally get out of the teeshirt business? Have you gotten a new cat, yet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Once Famous Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:33 PM [bleep] (for antisocial behavior)Who cares? Go hang out there and behave with all of the other good little whiners. I am sure this place is much more entertaining. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 29 Mar 05 - 08:30 PM I just heard about another interactive site in which your behaviour can get you voted out. How about that, folks? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Once Famous Date: 29 Mar 05 - 06:07 PM [bleep] (for antisocial behavior)So do lesbians with strap-ons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,I am the guest who is not a bull dike becaus Date: 29 Mar 05 - 05:11 PM bulls have balls. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 29 Mar 05 - 05:10 PM I am a fake. I am a bull with female genitalia. I will be 29 in September. Good game good game. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Once Famous Date: 29 Mar 05 - 05:03 PM [bleep] (for antisocial behavior)Guest of 4:15 PM is a fake. She is really a bull dike who wishes she had male genitalia. She will be 64 in June. |
