BS: Are We Anti-English

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,An Englishman Abroad
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:53 AM

What a good thred. Apart from the normal idiots looking for a fight rather then debate.

Rarelamb

There was no aid from America. If you check you will find out that it was all sales. Britain purchased all of the goods sent. The result was a massive deubt to the US that was not paid off untill I think it was the 70s. Not only did you sell the goods but at very inflated prices.

There is a very good book by Clive Pontin (he of Belgrano fame)that goes into more detail.

As an Englishman living in the USA I make my living as a speaker. One of the big selling points for me is my accent (would you beleive people want to listen to a Black Country lad)and the fact that Briton is looked up to also helps. I am asked with regularity. Whats the difference between the two countries. As far as ordinary people at the bottom of the heap are concerned. Virtualy nothing. Same worries, same problems.

It has been said before in the thred and it's true. There are wankers in every race.

All the best John

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,Old Glory
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:52 AM

Yeah thats great news about you guys in Britain are the 4th economy of the world, well maybe them you can pay us back the loans you got to cover the two World Wars, have you forgotten this ? you do owe us, did you not know this ????? Come on guys sent us the Dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,Old Gl;ory
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:47 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:43 AM

Yep Margaret, we stand before the European Courts accused of selling bananas by the pound instead of kilos, whilst our Spanish comrades are allowed to torture and slaughter bulls simply for public 'entertainment' without anyone turning a hair. Our workers are forced to follow a lengthy democratic procedure on pain of imprisonment should they wish to withhold their labour in furtherance of a dispute, whilst the French blockade the ports and burn sheep alive in their transporters and not a single prosecution follows. Words like 'double' and 'standards' spring to mind!

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:20 AM

would you believe my education? O.k. I wouldnt believe it either. I have to step out but, I will post some links when I get back.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Stu
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:14 AM

Yawn . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:12 AM

And the source of your information Guest Rarelamb is?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:02 AM

WWI

Have we forgotten that we shipped substantial material aid? The reality was that had the US not gotten involved the Germans would not have surrendered. Their population was being depleted just as badly as the Brits and French, with one difference. The russian revolution occured and the Germans were then in a position to focus on one front. Without the US, I don't think the continent would have survived. Britain maybe depending on whether or not they would be able to continue their success at Jutland.


WWII

Again, had the US not shipped goods, the Brits would have starved. The Wolfpack had in fact nearly accomplished this. Also, being the 'arsenal of democracy', I doubt the Russians would have faired so well. Had it not been for the US, Britain would have been starving and the Russians would have been defeated IMHO. To give you an idea of how much US industry contributed, after the war the US accounted for 50% of world GDP.

If it were a battle of Russia vs. the Germans, the Germans would have won. Without the US there would not have been a second front.

When you ask which wars we have won by ourselves is kinda misleading as most conflicts (including British) had allies and/or mercenaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 10:09 AM

Old Glory
You wrote
As to the World Wars, America won both of them.

Did you know that WW1 started in 1914. We are grateful for the US contribution, but it did not arrive until 1918, a few months before the end, and was much smaller than that of Britain or France.

You played a bigger part in WW2 though we would have preferred you had not waited until war was declared on you. We stood alone in 1940, and defeated the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain. By the time your forces arrived we had halted Hitler's advances in the West and turned the tide in N.Africa.
In terms of German divisions engaged, the Soviets took on more than both of us combined.

We are not a superpower like you. We are the 4th economy of the world and about the same militarily.
Yes, we are a small island.
Which wars have you won on your own?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 09:16 AM

I too lived in Corfu but came away with a different impression. Corfiots on the otherhand despise Athenians and Athenians despise 'islanders'. But that is also a sweeping generalisation. Yammas :)

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 06:51 AM

Zero tolerance of other races?
No country on Earth has been more welcoming to other races.
Over a million have come to live here in just the last ten years.
UN figures suggest that the current rate of entry is 150,000 per year, the majority from Indian subcontinent and Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,Old Glory
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 06:06 AM

Reply to above, regarding the Falklands, the Boy Scouts would have beaten the enemy on that Island. As to the World Wars, America won both of them.As to a formidable opponnent, what war of recent times have you fought alone with the backing of the States ??

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 05:56 AM

GUEST Margaret at the window says....."Not to mention such a small Island seeming to think they are a world superpower". Great Britain has proved this many times in the past...why should you doubt it now? What has changed? O.K so the Second World War was over 60 years ago but what about the Falklands?.....I for one "seem" to think that for such a small island we are a super power...not the power we were historically but still a formidable opponent.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,Margaret at the window
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 05:49 AM

Some very interesting points in the above posts. I imagine many who are English by birth feel very proud.I would like to hear the viewpoints of the Europeans though. Having lived in Holland and Corfu I am sorry to relay their viewpoint seems to be one of football yobs, child killers and zero tolerance of other races.Not to mention such a small Island seeming to think they are a world superpower.Also as a European union member having been in front of the European Courts so many times and found guilty of offences. That was the picture given to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 05:01 AM

You should remember Keith, that the fact that our ex colonies remain friends, and part of the commonwealth, says more about their tolerance, than about our popularity.

In many cases, we did not walk out of those countries, but were forced to leave by extended campaigns of armed resistance.

E.G. In Kenya, Mau-Mau terrorists drove us to negotiate self government.
We were thrown out of Rhodesia now Zimbabwe) by the Ian Smith government.
We were forced to hand over Cyprus, by armed resistance.

In many cases, the first leader of an independent ex colony, was the ex leader of said resistance, e.g. Archbishop Makarios, Jomo Kenyatta.

While we now have an amicable relationship with those governments, it would be surprising if there were not some underlying feelings of dislike, or even hatred.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Gurney
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 06:14 PM

Guest Margaret, yes, all of the above. Most generalisations have an element of truth in them.
Most of the posts above I can't argue with either. You just have to get things into perspective, and you must pick your own perspective.

'The English' did spread their particular brand of government around the world, and a poor thing it is. Until you consider all the others.

'The English' have been tyrants occasionally, and they have fought tyrants, the most notable being some of their own kings, the catholic church when it was corrupt, Napoleon, Hitler, and many, many others.

You will have to judge for yourself. I did, I emigrated from England to New Zealand, but I'm sure I could be settled in the USA, or Ausralia, Canada, or indeed Wales or Scotland, and perhaps Ireland now that the IRA are showing sense. Countries with representative government and religeous freedom because of their British colonial origins. I have relatives in all of them.
Chris, 33 years a Pom, 31 years a Kiwi.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 03:57 PM

And yet even more nations have benefited immesurably from the Magna Carta, John Stuart Mills and Adam Smith.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 03:48 PM

John O'Lennaine
you wrote
The English had an empire. Anyone who had an empire is going to be hated.

That is all the main powers in Europe then.
incl. France, Germany, Holland Belgium Spain

Our ex colonies are still friends and remain in The Commonwealth.
On balance they benefitted from the institutions and infrastructure they gained.

Other colonies gained independence through blood and fire. Ours with tea and ceremony.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 03:40 PM

The problem with England has always been the class system - it subtly pervades everything.
When I was a kid, growing up in provincial England, in the 50s and 60s, it was all much more blatant than it, perhaps (?), is now. My family was working class - my Dad was a sheet-metalworker in a local factory. This fact determined what sort of school my brothers and I went to and what sort of education we got. When I left school (a Secondary Modern) I decided that I wanted to continue my education and do 'O'levels at the local Technical College. The school careers advisers actually tried to dissuade me from this course ("wouldn't you be happier working in a factory, like your Dad?"). When I got my 'O' levels I, and my fellow students, decided we wanted to do 'A' levels - again the response was discouraging (" I get fed up with you working class kids getting a few 'O' levels and getting big ideas about going to University!").
Nowadays the situation is reversed. My local council seems to have it in for 'middle class' people, like me! My relatively well off suburb has to have as much development as possible crammed into it, whilst 'working class' districts go to wrack and ruin. Basically, those in power in this country can't help discriminating against people. It's not all fun being English!

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 12:49 PM

Is Britain the only country where children in state schools are never:

Asked to pledge allegiance?

Taught the origin and symbolism of the national flag?

Taught the words or the tune of the National Anthem?

Encouraged to learn the musical culture of their land? (England only)

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 12:29 PM

'specialy if the brolly has a ricin point;-)

I love All generalisations are false....including this one Can I borrow it? Or I'll swap it you for there is only 2 things I hate - racial predjudice and f"£$ing Englishmen...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 12:27 PM

Jon,
I remember reading that many native American kids were extracted from their reservations and educated entirely in none native language and culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 12:26 PM

Nah WLD, drown the little sod in the bath...........

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 12:14 PM

And what if he hits you with his brolly first. What-ho brother

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 11:07 AM

well i don't care. next one of those little bowler hatted bastards I see, I'm going to smack him in the mouth....

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 10:23 AM

(To expand on that, would I have it a black, white [even green if you can find me on] is any better or worse thant lests say an Englishman or scotsman. would I (going biblical here but you can take it other ways) wonder what the hell god was thinking of when he let us rule the planet - yes, scares me at times)

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 10:03 AM

I don't believe we are rearelamb. I think we could all enjoy life in these countires. It's really the human being as far as I can see things and we are so odd. We can be capable of acts of great kindess but also of butchery.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:55 AM

I find that I use English to mean UK more often than not. Mostly because of ignorance. I wonder if the peoples of Welsh are all that much different than in Scotland or England than the peoples from different regions of the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:44 AM

(And there is me using words like blame and not being jugdmental! - point to you there Keith!!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:41 AM

Guest Jon,
It's true that at one time Welch schools actively discouraged the use of Welch.
That would have been down to the Local Education Authorities, not the English.
Consider also how native American children were educated around that time. Also Basques and Bretons and minority languages everywhere.
Be not so judgemental.

Not trying to be judgemenat Keith, and I can only lay claim to being English.

I suppose native Americans might be another one but I'm unclear in that. The bits of American things I've seen like references here to a constitusion aree (IMO) great (and if I understand it correctly, the right to free speach, or the right to a trial by jury are good things) but was there also an invasion of a native culture?

My own, limited understanding would say there was, but would I blame all Americans, I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 08:56 AM

And live their lives as though a "B" movie was the height of accomplishment.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 08:20 AM

And too many untravelled people get their information from black and white b movies.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 07:50 AM

The thread topic is actually intriguing. It seems evident that both the US and England, for instance, have a love-hate relationship.

For instance, Americans often consider English accents (at least the Oxbridge accent) as evidence of high culture, to which a lot of us aspire. But on the other hand, we're quite happy when the villain in the show is a rich haughty Englishman, who of course gets his comeuppance in the end.   I think the degree to which an American resents a well-spoken Englishman depends to a large extent on his own self-confidence--if he feels himself to be an educated person, and therefore anybody's equal, he is probably free of that sort of visceral unthinking dislike.

Similarly, I believe, many English really like American blues and/or country music, but are dismayed, as are many Americans, by the way the McDonald's cheap throwaway culture is infesting the globe--as well as the way our current leadership approximates a bull in a china shop.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Splott Man
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 07:34 AM

Some people say English when they mean British.

Some people say British when they mean English.

Some people say English when they mean (historically) the Ruling Classes.

As Dick Gaughan said - England was the first colony.


Splott Man (an Englishman living in Wales)

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 07:18 AM

Guest Jon,
It's true that at one time Welch schools actively discouraged the use of Welch.
That would have been down to the Local Education Authorities, not the English.
Consider also how native American children were educated around that time. Also Basques and Bretons and minority languages everywhere.
Be not so judgemental.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 06:19 AM

With you there Georgiansilver. There's too mubh introspective navel gazing in this kind of discussion.

It's about time we recognised that NO group is without its minority of scroungers, criminals, and A-holes.

All generalisations are false....including this one.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 06:07 AM

To be honest, I am anti-anyone who is anti-anyone! Does that mean I don't like me much?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 05:56 AM

Plenty of English tanks in Dublin still. Made by Armitage, Shanks, Crapper etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 05:54 AM

Throughout history every race or creed has had scapegoats, in recent years the bigotry in this country has been directed at the Irish people who settled here, then came the influx of Afro Carribean who became the targets instead of the Irish, then came the Asian community who took the heat off the Afro Carribean to some extent, then came Refugees who in turn took some of the heat off the Asian community and now ........ dare mention Asylum Seekers ......

Incidentally my good lady Wombat in her role for the NHS found amongst the Asylum seekers in our area over 100 highly qualified medical staff who are now working in the NHS, these being Consultant Surgeons, Doctors, Physiotherpists etc etc. The saving to the NHS in terms of training costs alone was phenomenal, so much for bone idle, lazy scrounging bastards eh!

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 05:34 AM

Co-incidentaly I watched Zulu again last night. In the opening titles it says 'Introducing Michael Caine'. Must have been one of his first and he doesn't speak like he does in the rest of his films. Still acts like an arsehole tough...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 05:24 AM

Michael Caine is an arsehole, his real name ic Maurice Micklewhite, whats wrong with that ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 04:25 AM

I don't think Maggie at le fenetre is trying to 'establish characteristics' as Amos puts it. I guess it is a natural progression to my thread 'Are we anti-Irish'. I think the answer is yes. Judging by the ammount of venom directed against the English in the cat box itself I would say that there is a distinct anti-English feeling out there. But, like strolin' I, for one, don't give a flying one. Or any other sort;-)

If there was anything like the racism shown toward the English directed at Jews, Blacks, Irish or any other race, colour or creed many of the threads here would have been closed long ago. But you will be glad to hear you can carry on having your fun. Unlike some thiner skinned people we are big enough to take it. We can even laugh at ourselves. Isn't that a novel idea?

Good luck with the petty vindictiveness. See if you can come up with something original instead of the usual bollocks:-)

Cheers

tG

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 04:25 AM

No you're right....I wave at who I like, when I like and where I like and no Britannia will rule over who I wave to!

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 04:21 AM

I think we had (to me) a similar thread recently. I am English but I do have certain discomforts, remembering talking to a Welsh friend of my fathers who remembers being banned from speaking Welsh in school for one. I don't think there is any way English people as a whole can be blamed but I don't sit comfortably with say Brittania rulling the waves.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 04:08 AM

Hoisted by your own petard Big Al? See you tomorrow night mate.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 04:00 AM

English tanks in Dublin ..........Hmmm .......... I shall look out for those in a few days when I go over to the Emerald Isle

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 03:15 AM

Nah the english are all arseholes,

particularly that Michael Caine. he comes on the telly pretending to be someone else and everybody knowes its Michael bloody Caine.

they should hand bad back the falklands and get their tanks out of Dublin NOW.

no bloody excuse.

In fact Osama should make a smart bomb that is heatseeking and finds all the English blokes and detonates up their arsehole - only they'd enjoy that, cos they'e natural perverts.

wouldn't give you tuppence for the lot of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 11:50 PM

The English people are the salt of the Earth---even if the Scots DID invent tarmac, radio-location, the first steamship, anaesthetic, the telephone, television, built the first pedal bike [my g-g-Uncle Kirkpatrick MacMillan], lit up the streets with "town's" coal gas, not tae mention the momentous discoveries of porridge,haggis and Penicillin. Och! If it hadnae been for Marconi, they'd have had nobody----but I still think they're great folks! And like me, they don't tend to brag too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: Amos
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 11:35 PM

WHy would you even try to establish characteristics that applied to a whole nation of peole? How illogical. Let's see -- are women good, or bad? Are they too talkative or too unresponsive? Are they kind, or are they cruel? Friendly or standoffish? "Oh. OI think all women are cruel because one tried to get me arrested once...". Sheeshe.

Define your set a little more carefully. Have you no perspective??

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We Anti-English
From: John O'L
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 11:28 PM

Just expressing my personal view. I thought it was pretty conciliatory actually.