BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 10 May 06 - 01:58 PM

Gentle please cut of their air supply. Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 06 - 01:05 PM

Sorry, D:-( I can never remember the difference between Macs and Mcs. I know the difference between Macs and Pcs though. Macs keep out the rain and Pcs are for accessing Mudcat. Something like that.

Is a rule of thumb that Mac is Scottish and Mc is Irish?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 06 - 12:15 PM

You could of course express the power in terms of the councils the BNP control - 0%

However, as I said it is still a cause for concern. If people see the BNP as a normal party rather than as some sort of pariah their votes could increase substantially. There is a lot of resentment out there that neither Labour nor Conservative are concerned with the ordinary voter. That's dangerous. The protest vote can and does end up anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,Le Citron Vert
Date: 10 May 06 - 12:04 PM

Dave the gnome, I was going to post the same thing about the percentage. Nice work.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 06 - 11:26 AM

Scottish? Well, the family roots are are Irish, but we suspect the name (McGlade) is ultimately a corruption of McLeod, so maybe.

Yes, it was the seats contested this time round I was referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 06 - 11:20 AM

Sorry to cause any confusion - I am guessing DMcG's quote of 4418 seats is the seats renewed this time round - My quote of 22,000 is the total number of seats in local government in the UK as stated by the BBC. If I remember rightly don't all the seats rotate every 5 years or so? Making 4.4k every year times 5 = 22K?

Cheers

DtG
Not DMcG - He is my Scottish cousin...:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 06 - 11:16 AM

So it now has 46 seats out of 22,000 instead of 20 out of 22,000. And from the 350 candidates fielded 46 won. Lets look at the win and win and win and win and win and win and win in terms of percentages shall we - Seeing as it has already been said that they more than doubled their vote. Of the 350 candidates fielded just over 13% won. Making the total power base in the UK aroung 0.21% of the seats.

Pretty major I would say. I had better get packing for my trip back to Poland...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 06 - 11:09 AM

A cause for concern, certainly, but don't get carried away. Out of 4418 seats they only fielded about 350 candidates and won about 1 in 9 of those. "win and win and win and win and win and win and win" is overstating things just a tad.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 06 - 10:59 AM

hahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahaha.

BNP win more than double. Poor peace, poor goik, poor sods!

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 06 - 10:57 AM

BNP more than doubled their councillors. Sadly for us here at mudcat, faces are very red. Whilst cyber attacks continue, the BNP it seems continues to win and win and win and win and win and win and win.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,Norman Stronge
Date: 09 May 06 - 12:44 PM

No wish to get involved in the issues aired above. Would like to point out that there are two families in Ulster by the name Brookbourgh, one in Fermanagh the other Antrim. Derived from the name brookeborough. Said to have come about after a family squabble in the early 1920's in which a son made the change to his birthname. Useless piece of information I suppose !

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 06 - 11:07 AM

Spot on about the housing, Guest. My nephew has just turned down 2 properties in Little Hulton because it is a 'rough' area surrounded by drug dealers and immigrants. His dad (my brother-in-law) is the first to complain that there are only houses available to immigrants. No good trying to point out the contradictions in his views either. He is the only unemployed person I know who supported Margaret Thatcher. The mind boggles...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 06 - 09:51 AM

I do not read the Red Tops, but I did hear a report on R4 this morning with several comments from residents of Barking and followed by an interview with the new housing minister.
I agree with your assessment of the background to the current housing crisis.
It is not my assertion, but the perception of the residents that is important.
Of course a family just arrived must be given somewhere to live, and naturally those who have been waiting to be housed and who are passed over will resent it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,Le Citron Vert
Date: 09 May 06 - 09:27 AM

Great post Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 06 - 09:24 AM

Keith's assertion (and the BNP's) that asylum seekers, immigrants, incomers and parasites are given priority over decent "indigenous" folks is a myth. In Keith's case I assume it's simply the kind of lazy assumption peddled by the redtops, in the BNP's case it most certainly is not.

The fact is that housing policy has been in a mess- for everyone- for many years. "Garden city" style redevelopments like (ones I know of around Manchester) Little Hulton, Wythenshawe and Hattersley worked to a great extent while people's needs were simple and full employment prevailed, but when expectations rose, the communalistic restrictions irritated people, and there was a drift away from them. In this period, they were filled by "social" applicants, sometimes people whose behavioural deficiencies had led to employment problems, even in the boom era. It only takes a few of these to trigger an avalanche, which duly happened, and many parts of the new estates were unpleasant places long before incomers had had any effect- they lived in the old inner cities largely.

The sell- off of the remaining tolerable areas in the 1980s left what was remaining as sink estates, all too often used as dumping grounds for problem cases like single mothers and rent defaulters. Schools and shops deteriorated, transport links withered, the faberic was run down.

So asylum seekers etc. get put into such places, not because they are queue jumping, but because they have no choice. The answer is a redesign of housing policy, and "New" Labour could have done this at any time in the last 9 years, but their decision to continue Tory policies prevented this.

Which is why people SHOULD be angry. Send them home, that's what I say, but I mean the failed, visionless politicians we've had eroding society for the last 25 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 06 - 09:07 AM

I am not sure about myself!

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,Le Citron Vert
Date: 09 May 06 - 09:06 AM

Okay, so people who came here in "living memory" shouldn't be considered British?

If that is the case, my next question is, whose living memory?

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 06 - 09:01 AM

But Keith, I still want to know if I am British!

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:57 AM

I was aware of the Huguenots thank you.
Their 50 000 addition to the whole of the population of England over 300 years ago does not constitute a significant change, and is long gone from any living memory (though their genes will be integrated into the population of London and all of England)

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,Le Citron Vert
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:43 AM

From Wikipedia

"The Huguenots, French Protestants facing a new wave of persecution, began arriving in England in numbers around 1670. King Charles II offered them sanctuary, and in all some 40–50,000 arrived. Many settled in the Spitalfields area of London, and, being former silk-weavers, brought new energy to this industry in the area and raised silk to an important fashion item in Britain. It has been estimated that as many as a quarter of London's population today have a Huguenot ancestor."

Changed little over a thousand years?
If you like, I can use more examples to prove that incorrect.

The point I am making, which is no digression, is this skewed idea of nationhood. Anyone who holds a British passport should be considered British (as they are legally). Do you realise how ridiculous the idea of an 'indigenous' people in the UK is?

What date would you give as a 'cut-off' point when people stopped being indigenous?

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:32 AM

I do not think that this is a useful digression, but the population of London, and of England, has changed little in a thousand years.
There have been immigration events but tiny in scale compared to the huge demographic change that has just happened.
The most significant would be the Irish who came in the 19th and 20th Cents.
Jewish immigration is well known but in five hundred years would only amount to the kind of numbers now entering every year.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:11 AM

I agree that a term to indicate "that group whose families have comprised the population for generations" can be useful and indiginous will do as well as any.   The only problem is - how many generations and what counts. In my own case, my mother came from Co Limerick when it was still part of the UK. You may think that is obviously British (or indeed obviously not.) My fathers' side had all lived in England for at least 5 generations, but before that they didn't as far as I have been able to trace. I reckon you will find most British people (defined here as 'allowed to hold a full British passport' *grin*) have an ancestry that is a complex or even more so.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,Le Citron Vert
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:04 AM

My question then is, how many generations?

3? 12? 25?

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:41 AM

I used the term to mean that group whose families have comprised the population for geneations.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,Le Citron Vert
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:32 AM

"the indigenous people get passed over"

I saw an interview with Nick Griffin on the night of the election where he ised the term"indigenous people".

I don't believe that this term applies in the UK at all. Here is the definition, make your own minds up;

Main Entry: in·dig·e·nous
Pronunciation: in-'dij-&-n&s
Function: adjective
1 : having originated in and being produced, growing, or living naturally in a particular region or environment

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:23 AM

It seems that housing is the main issue the has led to white working class turning to BNP.
None of the other parties has addressed the issue.
Social housing has traditionally been awarded to those locals who would have to wait their turn.
Immigrant families are treated as emergencies, and for many years now have been given priority.
As there is a shortage, the indigenous people get passed over.
Resentment is inevitable. The change has been sudden and dramatic. Traditional white working class areas are suddenly transformed.
They were never consulted, and if they query the situation they are called racist.
If only the respectable parties had been prepared to recognise that there are legitimate grievances arising from unprecedented mass immigration, then this frightening trend could have been prevented.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:05 AM

People want to get nasty with someone? Never! Wouldn't happen here on the Mudcat...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 09 May 06 - 05:13 AM

Why is the alternative the BNP and not the Greens? Obvious innit? People WANT to get nasty with someone, and the BNP gives them "permission" to do that. In the same way that the Serbs preferred to take the whole country to hell rather than feel disempowered (even though they would have been much better off), the ordinary "soft" BNP supporter would rather trash Britain than redirect or let go of their anger.

Over the last 25 years, following Thatcher's deliberate North Sea oil- fuelled destruction of the industrial economy, stable industries that (despite their faults) built stability, community and a sense of solidarity have been replaced by fragmented, non- continuous, undeveloping, isolating jobs. No wonder people are angry. But the BNP feed them a simple line- it's all the others, the immigrants, the Blacks, Asians, Eastern Europeans. Combine this with the underhand support they get from the right- wing media, it makes getting the more complex message across like trying to get kids to eat muesli instead of greaseburgers.

People are right to be angry. It's the target that's wrong. But the Greens are far too honest to make up easy hate- figures to exploit the desire to break something.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 May 06 - 04:52 AM

Lets look at life on a lighter note !





Being British

Being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a
Belgian beer, then travelling home and grabbing an Indian curry or a
Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch
American shows on a Japanese TV.
And the most British thing of all? Suspicion of anything foreign!!!

Oh and!!!!!

Only in Britain... can a pizza get to your house faster than an ambulance.

Only in Britain... do supermarkets make sick people walk all the way to the back of the shop to get their prescriptions while healthy people can buy cigarettes at the front.

Only in Britain.. do people order double cheeseburgers, large fries, and a DIET coke.

Only in Britain... do banks leave both doors open and chain the pens to
the counters.



Only in Britain... do we leave cars worth thousands of pounds on the drive and lock our junk and cheap lawn mower in the garage.

Only in Britain... do we use answering machines to screen calls and then have call waiting so we won't miss a call from someone we didn't want to talk to in the first place.

Only in Britain... are there disabled parking places in front of a
skating rink.

NOT TO MENTION...

3 Brits die each year testing if a 9v battery works on their tongue.

142 Brits were injured in 1999 by not removing all pins from new shirts.

58 Brits are injured each year by using sharp knives instead of screwdrivers.

31 Brits have died since 1996 by watering their Christmas tree while the fairy lights were plugged in.

19 Brits have died in the last 3 years believing that Christmas decorations were chocolate.

British Hospitals reported 4 broken arms last year after cracker pulling accidents.

101 people since 1999 have had broken parts of plastic toys pulled out of the soles of their feet.

18 Brits had serious burns in 2000 trying on a new jumper with a lit cigarette in their mouth.

A massive 543 Brits (All Welsh) were admitted to A&E in the last two years after opening bottles of beer with their teeth.

5 Brits were injured last year in accidents involving out of Control Scalextric cars.


and finally.........

In 2005 eight Brits (All Scottish) cracked their skull whilst throwing up into the toilet.

Makes you proud to be British or Irish !

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 06 - 04:31 AM

The problem is now that the mainstream parties are using the BNP pretty much as the BNP use immigrants - Someone to hate! Terry has the gist of it better than most I have seen.

I am as anti-facist as the next sensible person, just as I am anti any extemist, but just ranting at them does not help. Thay are not the alternative to New Labour as most people seem to think though. There are other alternatives before people consider the far right (or left for that matter).

What about Lib-dem? Green? Monster raving loony? How come people seem to think that the BNP is more of a viable alternative than those? As Terry said, address the root cause and people will stop voting for them. Whether you will stop Gillian and her friends in Northern Ireland is a different matter. We can but hope.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,Working class anti fascist
Date: 09 May 06 - 12:32 AM

There are some anti-fascist groups who have been trying to educate people about the BNP and what they are really like, the problem is as I have seen, that these groups are often made up of hippies/'oddballs' etc - I can guess what people would call them. It's a shame there are not more ordinary people campaigning against the BNP - Especially white working class people...as they are the ones allegedly voting BNP now because New Labour ain't listening to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 May 06 - 04:11 AM

I`ll say one thing for Gillian she can certainly stir the pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Terry K
Date: 08 May 06 - 02:43 AM

What do I see as the solution? That the Goverment take on board the fact that some people (and please don't make the simplistic assumption that I am one of them) are pissed off with what is going on in the country. The Government are the only ones who can change anything or influence anything, but they refuse to accept that there is a perceived problem out there. They stick their heads close to the sand and cry "racist" - rather like you guys are doing.

You say "the notion that YOU are powerless to effect change in the political parties of the UK) is defeatist" - maybe so, but what do you want me to do, become a political activist? - no thanks, in the face of mass stupidity as is repeatedly shown by the electorate and the political parties, I have better things to do with my life.

But as an outside observer it is as clear as day to me that there is some reason why this latest phenomenon is happening. Isn't it bleeding obvious that there must be some reason why the BNP are doing so well? The only way forward is if someone takes a cold, detached look at cause and effect, and try to do something about the causes.

It's a bit like bringing up children - if you don't like the way they are responding to conditioning and environment, you have to change something. But you first have to realise that the way they behave is because they see something as being out of kilter, not just shout at them and lash out.

That's me done - if you can't see what to me is totally obvious than my further input to this thread is of no avail. Defeatist again, hah!

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:23 PM

"The solution? - there isn't one, just please don't assume your simplistic ranting helps in any way."

Nor do your erudite ones, Terry. It seems you have given up. Too bad, because that sort of thinking (the notion that YOU are powerless to effect change in the political parties of the UK) is defeatist. Why not just hand the scum the keys?

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 06 - 01:49 PM

Did they have any candidates in Tower Hamlets?

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,DG
Date: 07 May 06 - 05:36 AM

"I make my protest by refusing to vote for any of the wankers"

Yeah nice one, it's not me that are helping the BNP it's people like you who don't even vote. Voting for ANYONE else is better than voting for a bunch of racist thugs.

"The solution? - there isn't one"

Have you read any history books? So what should we do? nothing?

Of course there is a solution, and that solution is to highlight how racist these people are and do what we can to put a stop to it. Education is the key. People need to realise that by voting for the BNP as a protest will not help them, the system or the country.

Sorry for sounding juvenile, but the BNP piss me off like nothing else and anyone who even claims that they are any alternative is often on the other end of some of my ranting.

I find it very difficult to believe that anyone would see them as a viable, realistic alternative looking at their track record and candidates criminal records.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Terry K
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:22 AM

er - 'scuse me?

You can continue to completely miss the point if you wish, but random taunts of "racist" are not the answer. Just why do you think these BNP twats are becoming more and more successful? Ever thought about it? They thrive on "opposition" such as yours, it spurs them on to pursue their misguided cause. But beneath it all, it is as clear as day that there is a voting public who may or may not be racist, but who have no other avenue through which to make their statement (not me, I make my protest by refusing to vote for any of the wankers).

And GUEST,DG - you have tried this "let's meet up" tactic previously with somebody else who couldn't get you to understand even the simplest point. It was pathetic then, as it is now. You sound very young (perhaps juvenile is a better word), do try to grow up.

And Peace - "Give people a good party to vote for and they won't vote for scum". Just how do you think that's going to happen? Where do we get a good party from? Don't you think we would love to have a good party to vote for? (incidentally, I'm always up for a good party) - unfortunately we have a stupid electorate who continue to vote for the knobheads that we've got at present, or the knobheads who are trying equally hard to remove them.

The solution? - there isn't one, just please don't assume your simplistic ranting helps in any way.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,DG
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:30 PM

Terry K, just looking over your previous posts, it's clear you're a bit of a racist. Also it's clear you live in London.

I'm in London too - Let's meet up, I'd love to discuss some of your views face to face.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,DG
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:24 PM

"you will be part of the reason for the BNP's success."

Nope.

"that's exactly what the BNP voters did"

Nope.

Even if you are pissed off with the Labour party, voting for the fascist, right wing scum BNP is no alternative. By voting for them, you are voting for people who put shit through letter boxes.

Get a grip. They are no alternative. They are Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 06 - 03:15 PM

"What the fuck good do you imagine that does?"

Give people a good party to vote for and they won't vote for scum. Get it, Terry? That wht the fuck good it will do.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Terry K
Date: 06 May 06 - 03:09 PM

"I'm proud to be British, but I love the fact that it's a multicultural place".

Maybe you are, but so what? The whole point is that many people on the ground are not necessarily in agreement with you, hence are voting for the BNP. Wake up, for Christ's sake or you will be part of the reason for the BNP's success.

And Peace says, "Address your comments to the Labour Party".

Er, 'scuse me, but that's exactly what the BNP voters did - with arguably resounding success. And who was listening? - only those who can only respond with jibes and taunts. What the fuck good do you imagine that does?

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,Am I in the right world here?
Date: 06 May 06 - 12:53 PM

I am however a member of the D.U.P. And I jolly well think that any political party and it's members are allowed to speak, not be bullied down by people of an alternative political viewpoint.

The DUP? Never bullying ANY other party? Words fail me.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,DG
Date: 06 May 06 - 12:51 PM

"I am bewildered and utterly ashamed of some of the unpatriotic comments made here by British members, what must other members throughout the world think of our nation."

I'd prefer not to be considered British if you're a good example of a Brit. What is 'British' anyway - give me an idea - what should a 'British' person look like... what colour hair? what accent? what religion? what political leanings?

I think my family comes from Norway, hundreds and hundreds of years ago... I'm proud to be British, but I love the fact that it's a multicultural place.

As I said previously Gillian, please either answer the valid points raised by myself and others previously in this thread or just sod off.

Luckily, there were no BNP candidates in my council election. I'm very, very happy about that.

Yes, I'll do all I can to bully the BNP out.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,Gillian Brookbourgh
Date: 06 May 06 - 12:45 PM

I am not a member of the B.N.P. I am however a member of the D.U.P.
And I jolly well think that any political party and it's members are allowed to speak, not be bullied down by people of an alternative political viewpoint.
I am bewildered and utterly ashamed of some of the unpatriotic comments made here by British members, what must other members throughout the world think of our nation.

Disgusting Behaviour, pretty bad show I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 May 06 - 12:31 PM

DG, Do you not realise that Gillian is echoing the thoughts of a large percentage of Ian Paisley`s DUP Party, they are racist and always have been.
Whenever any of our by now large immigrant population are mentioned in conversation to my Protestant friends they are immediately castigated with all of the usual quotes such as " coming over here to take our jobs", and these are jobs the average north of Ireland Prod wouldn`t do or in other cases don`t have the qualifactions to apply for, such as, in the field of medicine, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,DG
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:52 AM

Gillian, you're a fucking idiot.

People have tried to reason with you long enough, just sod off.

Anyone who refuses to believe the BNP are not racist thugs, must themselves be as bad.

You have no valid answers when everyone points out the holes in your arguments, in was interesting to see that you didn't comment here for a few weeks when people began questioning you. It's people like you that give this country a bad name.

Go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:48 AM

Where is anything about English folk music song or dance on the DUP site?

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,Gillian Brookbourgh
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:38 AM

Oh for pity's sake ifor, that was that chap Gwynne who did that silly programme,he has since been discredited many times, almost sure he confessed the whole thing was nothing more than a set up by a few meddling radical student types.

Must say it is rather funny to think someone such as yourself actually believed it, oh come on. I can only imagine you are teasing me here.

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 06 May 06 - 08:21 AM

Gillian
Perhaps you can explain why your racist BNP pals get so much pleasure in boasting about how they like to shove dogmess through the letterboxes of asian shopkeepers?
This was revealed in a secret filming of a BNP meeting by the BBC last year. What a horrible bunch of misfits!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Who will campaign against the BNP?
From: GUEST,Gillian Brookbourgh
Date: 06 May 06 - 04:41 AM

I read that article in above link, simply Poppy Cock. The chap who wrote it is so filled with dislike of the English nation, I am surprised you don't see this, it's actually quite apparent. If you want to read something of Substance, trot over to this site. www.dup.org.uk