BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:32 PM

"The most disturbing aspect of the Obama cult, to me, is his & his supporters use of Christian messianic language in their political rhetoric. I find that deeply, deeply disturbing considering the money he has piled up & who gave it to him.

I'm not in favor of evangelical political populism, thanks.

We've seen this sort of Protestant political crusading before--in a rapid rise and fall during the Gilded Age. They were notoriously anti-socialism and anti-labor radicalism, and ended up being a flash in the pan.

Lots of the same themes are resonating around today that were in the zeitgeist back then too. Back then, it was Primitive Baptists, Disciples of Christ, Methodists, and other evangelical Protestants who rejected denominationalism altogether, leading the charge.

It could certainly be argued that the born again Protestant culture is "extra-denominational" if you will."

Did Martin Luther King Jr scare you too?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:21 PM

As I said, I'm hardly the first to have noted the Christian messianic rhetoric in the Obama cult, to wit from Talk Left:

Obama: Cult , Evangelicalism or Political Campaign?
By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 10:22:48 AM EST
Tags: Barack Obama, 2008 (all tags)
Share This: Digg This!! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

I'm so glad to see I'm not the only one a bit turned off by the messianic fervor Barack Obama is generating. Jake Tapper at ABC News lists a few others.

Katherine Greier at TPM Cafe, an Obama supporter, writes:

    "Excuse me, but this sounds more like a cult than a political campaign. The language used here is the language of evangelical Christianity – the Obama volunteers speak of 'coming to Obama' in the same way born-again Christians talk about 'coming to Jesus.'...So I say, we should all get a grip, stop all this unseemly mooning over Barack, see him and the political landscape he is a part of in a cooler, clearer, and more realistic light, and get to work."

Joe Klein at Time Magazine points out the Obama gap between inspiration and substance:

More...

    there was something just a wee bit creepy about the mass messianism — "We are the ones we've been waiting for" — of the Super Tuesday speech and the recent turn of the Obama campaign. "This time can be different because this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America is different. It's different not because of me. It's different because of you." That is not just maddeningly vague but also disingenuous: the campaign is entirely about Obama and his ability to inspire. Rather than focusing on any specific issue or cause — other than an amorphous desire for change — the message is becoming dangerously self-referential. The Obama campaign all too often is about how wonderful the Obama campaign is.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:16 PM

Well, as a card carrying member of the cult, Poppagator, I'm not the least bit surprised to see you reading your own cult view into my intent.

But if you look at the time & date I inititiated the thread (the day Teddy Kennedy was airlifted from the Cape to Mass Gen in Boston), a more objective person (ie one who isn't quite so enamored of Obama) might see this thread differently. I never intended it to be yet another ad nauseum debate with the Mudcat Obama cult. God knows there are plenty of those threads here.

I am in no way being "out of line" to view Obama critically, and comment upon him in a critical vein.

Last time I checked, we still had a First Amendment in this country.

And sorry to disappoint, I don't have a girl in the race--I've said repeatedly I'm either voting for Nader or staying home. However, I find the sexist attacks against Clinton to be out of line and over the top.

But I'm sure you wouldn't agree with that either.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:10 PM

The reason that Obama is pulling 65,000 to 75,000 people to hear hjim has nothing to do with cult or worship...

...it's all about the kind of politics that ***you*** so aptly represent here in Mudville..

(Well, Boberdz, maybe that's why it's called Mudville???)

Hillary and you, Fantz, have been slingin' mud like there's no tomorrow...

Well, at least Hillary has quit for now and unless McCain taps her for VP I hope she is done...

B

I read that, Kat... I might not be too good at this typin'/spellin' stuff but I read that an' have just one question... If the P-Vine had Barak's baby could we both move into the White House???

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:58 PM

"I was mostly talking about the celebrity worship syndrome in regards to the deaths of Princess Di & JFK Jr, not his president father.

Really over the top and screwed up reactions to both occurred, IMO."

C'mon, Fantasma, who are you trying to kid? The main point of your opening argument, and sole reason for starting this thread, was to demean Barack Obama and his supporters. The fact that you posted twice before prompting a response from anyone else ~ that's what might be interpreted as "over the top," not the reponsses posted by the rest of us.

I do appreciate the wealth of interesting insights you passed along concerning the general topic of "celebrity obsession," which I find distasteful to an alarming extent, probably as much as you. But characterizing the enthusiastic response of voters to a political candidate ~ especially to one candidate to the exclusion of the others ~ was out of line.

After all, your girl Hillary has a very similar appeal to a different demographic, just as rabid if not moreso, but in somewhat smaller numbers ~ much to the candidiate's surprise and dismay.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:45 PM

That would be interesting to find out, wouldn't it? Because despite JFK Sr's charisma, he was hated by LOTS of people.

The most disturbing aspect of the Obama cult, to me, is his & his supporters use of Christian messianic language in their political rhetoric. I find that deeply, deeply disturbing considering the money he has piled up & who gave it to him.

I'm not in favor of evangelical political populism, thanks.

We've seen this sort of Protestant political crusading before--in a rapid rise and fall during the Gilded Age. They were notoriously anti-socialism and anti-labor radicalism, and ended up being a flash in the pan.

Lots of the same themes are resonating around today that were in the zeitgeist back then too. Back then, it was Primitive Baptists, Disciples of Christ, Methodists, and other evangelical Protestants who rejected denominationalism altogether, leading the charge.

It could certainly be argued that the born again Protestant culture is "extra-denominational" if you will.

And as to race, back then it was rooted strongly in the Jim Crow south in the wake of emancipation. Today, it is the "first" black president who speaks using messianic rhetoric quite frequently, who is driving it.

Which is one of the reasons why Obama doesn't do well with Catholics, IMO.

But that's a subject for a different thread, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:29 PM

I wonder if the same psychological events are at play for the outright hatred that was shown for people like Bill Clinton and JFK.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:27 PM

I was mostly talking about the celebrity worship syndrome in regards to the deaths of Princess Di & JFK Jr, not his president father.

Really over the top and screwed up reactions to both occurred, IMO.

I, of course, am not exactly the first person on the planet to note the cult of personality surrounding Obama. He just pulled in 65,000-75,000 people in Oregon, according to what I just read.

Something going on there, but I don't think it has anything to do with politics or our democracy. When a politician starts pulling in those numbers at political rallies you are looking at something a tad more messianic than just rock star status.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:24 PM

Oh, come on, Bobert, you know you want to have his baby...or, have P-Vine have it, or something just as fantastical!**bg**

Poppagator, exactly. Well-put.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:14 PM

As fir me, I really ain't fot any worship in me fir any motal being... I rubbed elbows with alot of so-called famous rock stars an' they is just people like the rest of us... Okay, Doctor John was a wierdo... But Bruce Springstien was a quite and somewhat shy guy when I hung with him a little back in the late 60's...

Respect and suppprt now???? Different concepts and, yeah, I support Obama and I respect Obama... Worship??? Nah...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:03 PM

I think that response to "charisma" in a political leader is quite a different thing from obsession with pop stars and "famous-only-for-being-famous" characters like Paris Hilton. To find oneself caught up in a political movement, whether or not it is linked with an individual's personality, is to function as a citizen in the public arena, not something than many of do with any regularity.

A politician's JOB is to inspire the population, and all of them do so to a greater or lesser extent. It is necessary to capture the public imagination in order to get elected in the first place, of course, and once in office ~ especially, in an executive office like Presidency, or even a Governorship ~ it is necessary to mobilize the public in order to achieve anything new and different.

Washington and Lincoln were charismatic leaders, as were both Roosevelts, JFK, and Reagan. Now, only the latter two held office during my living memory, and I felt closely aligned with one and not at all with the other. But regardless of whether you or I agree with an individual leader's agenda, we can recognize when he is able to connect with large numbers of people ~ and we should be able to recognize that the ability to do so is the most important aspect of political leadership, far more critical than legislative savvy, organization experience, or any number of other skills that can be delegated to others. Only the officeholder himself (or herself, of course) can capture the public's imagination and inspire them to press for, and/or to accept, anything really new.

Not at all to be compared with fan-magazine-type hero worship.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 08 - 01:10 PM

Well, well, well...

So Obama supporters aren't supporters at all but worshipers??? No, not worshipers but downright cultists???

Hmmmmm???

How about folks who support McCain and Hillary, Fantz??? Any of them fall in that category??? And if so, why was Obama used as "The Celebrity"???

Nevermind, I know... If you were to start a thread entitled "Tomato Biscqe Soup Recipes" I'm sure you would somehow weave your displeasure with Obama and/or his "worshipers" into it...

...lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:42 AM

Kevin, here's another - my favourite - from the pen of Clive James, as set to music by Pete Atkin:

APPARITION IN LAS VEGAS

When the King of Rock and Roll sang in the desert
He didn't seem to age like other men
To Vegas came the ladies with pink rinses
Agog to see the dreamboat sail again

To Vegas came the shipwrecked and the broken
Their long regrets, their searing midnight rages
Their disappointment seldom left unspoken
In marriages that turned to rows of cages
He wrote and bound the book of which their early aspirations were the pages

When the King of Rock and Roll sang in the desert
With a ring of confidence around his smile
He sparkled like the frosting on a drumkit
He was supple as the serpent of the Nile

To Vegas came the ladies with pink rinses
With all their ills and all their soured karma
With all their pills and all their tics and winces
To feel again the liberating drama
Of a shining silver buckskin suit against a solid purple cyclorama

When the King of Rock and Roll sang in the desert
He broke no hearts that hadn't burst before
The ladies with pink rinses all were veterans
It was they and never he that knew the score
And knowing that they only loved him more

To Vegas came the debris of an era
For the promise that no longer could deceive them
Their eyes grew misty as their sight grew clearer
With a drum roll the past began to leave them
And it all drew further from them as the spotlight caught the King and brought him nearer

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:22 AM

Now you are getting some real insight into the joys of my daily lifestyle, weelittledrummer...

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:21 AM

The kitchen that looks like the bridge of The Enterprise sounds fun.

You could microwave your lunch at warp factor 10.

If someone came in and said, you don't cook it like that - you got the recipe wrong: you could put the phaser on stun, and say oh yes I do!

And you could run around a bit, like it was meteorite storm while you wait for the kettle to boil.......

....not that I ever used to watch it much.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:04 PM

LH, we knew you were a Shatner nut!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 08 - 07:18 PM

"Ghandi" rides again.

Gorge Wasington, Abaram Linclon and Runnold Raygun could fittingly accompany him.

The name's Gandhi!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 May 08 - 07:08 PM

On the one hand, it's something that just naturally happens. People like to have a role model that they can be inspired by, and I think that's a healthy thing.

On the other hand, it's a powerful marketing technique...and it can get way out of hand.

Now what would you say about a person who talks constantly about William Shatner, for example, and whose house is full of Shatner memorabilia? When you ring their doorbell you hear a recording of Captain Kirk saying, "Beam me in, Mr Scott." When you enter the front hall you are confronted by a lifesize statue of William Shatner clad in a speedo, and the statue is gilded. Its eyes follow you as you walk by nervously, and if you are female it pinches your butt when you're not looking and then winks roguishly at you when you turn around! If you're male it says, "Look sharp, mister! And pull in that gut."

You enter the library to find hundreds of books about Shatner and Star Trek. The kitchen is a replica of the Bridge of the Enterprise.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture...

Now would this be a really unhealthy case of CWS? Or just a harmless hobby? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:27 PM

I can understand the political side of things. Kennedy, like Ghandi and Martin Luther King (and others) was a leader trying to make things better (at least in public view) and was very charismatic. Or as it's been described, a cult of personality. He was leading the way! Jackie was the penultimate first lady. It was a new day and a new age (I wasn't even around to see it, that's how I've heard it described by people and in print).

Brittany and her ilk just make me sick! They are not news! Perhaps if they were making a positive difference (like some others) instead of being in a selfish, vain, downward spiral I might even be interested in a humane way.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Slag
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:17 PM

What a relief! I once thought I was antisocial but discovered I was only anti-celebrity!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:54 PM

I confess to having a few 'heroes' - favourite authors mainly. But I don't particularly want to meet any of them - what would I say to them?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:12 PM

Ruichard Thompson's Galway to Graceland is the only song I can think of about this:

Oh she dressed in the dark and she whispered amen
She was pretty in pink like a young girl again
Twenty years married and she never thought twice
She sneaked out the door and walked into the night
And silver wings carried her over the sea
From the west coast of Ireland to West Tennessee
To be with her sweetheart, oh she left everything
From Galway to Graceland to be with the king

She was humming Suspicion, that's the song she liked best
She had Elvis I Love You tattooed on her breast
When they landed in Memphis, well her heart beat so fast
She'd dreamed for so long, now she'd see him at last
She was down by his graveside day after day
Come closing time they would pull her away
Ah to be with her sweetheart, oh she'd left everything
From Galway to Graceland to be with the king

Ah, they came in their thousands from the whole human race
To pay their respects at his last resting place
But blindly she knelt there and she told him her dreams
And she thought that he answered or that's how it seems
Then they dragged her away it was handcuffs this time
She said my good man are you out of your mind.
Don't you know that we're married? See, I'm wearing his ring.
From Galway to Graceland to be with the king.
I come From Galway to Graceland to be with the king.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 May 08 - 04:14 PM

Which is precisely why I don't watch the news, don't get a newspaper and have a huge library.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:14 PM

Indeed it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:04 PM

Well, it's useful for the 'bread and circuses' part of the distraction and subjugation of the masses, isn't it? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:47 PM

I don't understand the concept either, exactly. I was a Beatlemaniac when I was 10-11 years old, and beyond that, I can't recall any sort of hero worship or rock star idolatry I ever engaged in, once I passed puberty and became able to evaluate the music of Beatles as music by musicians, and not my idols. I'm not a religious believer, but a secularist. So I can't say as I can relate there either.

I was "over there" when Princess Di went into the wall, and was--as they say that side of the pond--absolutely gobsmacked at the reaction.

I do think much of the Obama stuff is political celebrity worship. Then, when I read yesterday morning that Kennedy had gone into the hospital, I had flash backs of when John John went into the drink, and THAT looked just the same as the Princess Di shit.

Do you see the pattern I'm getting at here? There are politician/political celebrities involved in the Princess Di, the Kennedys, the Clintons, the Obamas (especially now that I am hearing Michelle Obama being declared the new Jackie O).

That's the thing I'm so baffled by here.

American Idol, yeah whatever. Same with boy bands, and all that sort of teen fandom stuff. Star Trek, a bit more disturbing still. Anna Nicole Smith and Brittany Spears, misogynist and REALLY disturbing.

But the political thing is really a throw back to what Milton was talking about...so it feels a bit more ancient, this political idolatry thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:32 PM

I think it's a social behavior that humans (and other primates) come by honestly, though. They did some studies on chimps and found that they would rather look at a picture of the higher ranking members of the social group than eat their favorite foods (if given a choice between the two). It probably was a very important survival tool back when the social cohesiveness of a small grouping of humans or other primates meant the difference between surviving or not surviving.

I can't think of any celebrities that I would consider worthy of being "worshiped", though. I actually don't understand the concept of worship, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:23 PM

And it isn't exactly a new idea. I'm thinking Milton's 'Readie and Easie Ways' here when it comes to the replacing of religious idols with political idols, be they the king or the president.

It also makes me wish there were a Will Rogers for our day. Daily Show just leaves one wanting, by comparison to our once "Unofficial President of the United States".

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:14 PM

Hmmmm You may have something there. Science is amazing. I'm sure it has a term for the pathological need to continually set oneself above people whom one will never know.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:59 PM

Now I've just come across this older article from ABC News (2003), that talks about a "sliding scale" of celebrity obsession:

The responses cast doubt on the conventional view that celebrity worship is categorised into pathological and non-pathological cases - in other words, harmless fun and obsession.

Instead, the replies pointed to a "sliding scale" in which the celebrity devotee becomes progressively more fascinated with his or her idol.

In addition, celebrity fans are significantly likelier to suffer from anxiety, depression and social dysfunction than non-worshippers.

About 20 per cent of respondents closely followed celebrities in the media for "entertainment-social" reasons, according to the report.

They tend to be extroverts: social, lively, active and adventurous.

The next stage, affecting about 10 per cent, is when the devotee develops an "intense-personal" attitude towards an idol, such as the belief that he or she had a special bond with the star.

At this point, celebrity worship is becoming an addiction.

Those in this category are often neurotic, tense, emotional and moody.

At its most intense, celebrity worship is "borderline-pathological," a condition found in 1 per cent of interviewees.

These include celebrity stalkers and people who are willing to hurt themselves or others in the name of their idol.

They correlate with symptoms of psychosis, such as impulsive, antisocial and egocentric behaviour.

"Just worshipping a celebrity does not make you dysfunctional," New Scientist quoted Mr Houran as saying.

"But it does put you at risk of being so.

"There is this progression of behaviours, and if you start, we don't know what's going to stop you."

People tend to get interested in celebrities at times when they are looking for direction in life, as in their teenage years.

Subject: BS: Celebrity Worship Syndrome
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:03 PM

Well, so many things got me thinking of it this weekend. The Obama cult & the political idol worship of people like him, the Kennedys, and other politician charismatics.

My sister's obsession with American Idol and Dancing With the Stars.

Now, I can enjoy a mindless show or two of Dancing With the Stars. Can't go there regarding American Idol, though.

My daughter and I had an "annual tradition" of watching the Academy Awards together to see what the women were wearing (she is now in school to get her BFA in Tech Theatre in Wig & Makeup Design, so it always seemed natural for us, even though I'm not very into the whole glamor thing).

And of course, when you don't have cable and your only after work choices are Entertainment Tonight and Access Hollywood while you are doing your exercycle...yeah, I watch when the Lehrer report is too dull to be tolerable--which is quite often.

It is said by psychologists (which makes me immediately suspicious) that 1/3 of the planet's population suffers from some level of what they call "celebrity worship". Here are the "3 phases" in current circulation among the pop psych types:

    * Entertainment-social. Fans are attracted to a favorite celebrity because of their perceived ability to entertain and to become a source of social interaction and gossip. Items include 'My friends and I like to discuss what my favorite celebrity has done' and 'Learning the life story of my favorite celebrity is a lot of fun'.

    * Intense-personal. The intense-personal aspect of celebrity worship reflects intensive and compulsive feelings about the celebrity, akin to the obsession tendencies of fans often referred to in the literature. Items include 'My favorite celebrity is practically perfect in every way' and 'I consider my favorite celebrity to by my soul mate'.

    * Borderline-pathological. This dimension is typified by uncontrollable behaviors and fantasies about their celebrities. Items include 'I would gladly die in order to save the life of my favorite celebrity' and 'If I walked through the door of my favorite celebrity's house she or he would be happy to see me'.

Now, I think in our adolescence we've all done a bit of light stalking of someone we had a crush on--calling on the phone just to hear them answer, driving by their house, keeping tabs on their whereabouts and with whomabouts through friends, that sort of thing.

That sort of obsessive-compulsive thing I can appreciate and have tremendous empathy for, as it is really hard to grow and mature out of that stage in life where heterosexual romantic love is perceived as the high water mark of human achievement.

The wedding industry and celebrity tv don't help this.

Politician idolatry is, of course, far less common but does still happen, as we've seen with Obama.

Knowing the tendency of the pop psychology movement to make everything a "syndrome" I can't help but wonder: why is it some people never seem to mature and outgrow this sort of thing?