BS: Obama is a socialist

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:07 PM

From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM

I don't know for sure if this "North American Union" is a hoax or if it is real.

Well, sure worth asking about.....

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM

Good on ya, Sawz, for looking behind the rabble-rousing and seeking facts.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:08 PM

So far, it looks like a hoax to me.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/nau.asp

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/amero.asp


http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/corsis_dull_hatchet.html

Corsi's Track Record

Corsi is a renowned conspiracy theorist who says that George Bush is attempting to create a North American Union (we looked at that here) and that there is evidence that the World Trade Center may have collapsed because it was seeded with explosives. More recently, Corsi claimed that Obama released a fake birth certificate. We've debunked that twice now. And, as our colleagues at PolitiFact.com found, many of the themes in "The Obama Nation" are reworked versions of bogus chain e-mail smears.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/wrong_paul.html

According to Paul, a secret organization run by unaccountable government figures is in league with foreign corporations who are all bent on usurping American sovereignty. That's not from the script for a new X-Files movie. (Or not that we know of.) It's the gist of Paul's description of a supposed "NAFTA Superhighway." Paul describes it on his Web site as "a ten-lane colossus the width of several football fields, with freight and rail lines, fiber-optic cable lines, and oil and natural gas pipelines running alongside." And that's not all. According to Paul, the ultimate plan is to form a North American Union with a single currency and unlimited travel within its borders, all headed up by "an unholy alliance of foreign consortiums and officials from several governments" that together form the shadowy "quasi-government organization called the 'Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America,' or SPP."

The problem with Paul's claim is that there are no plans to build a NAFTA Superhighway. Or a North American Union, for that matter. And while the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America does exist, it's just a boring bureaucracy.

Like many conspiracy theories, this one is a mixture of fact and fiction. improvements to existing roads, but is not lobbying for, or planning to build, any new thoroughfares. From the NASCO That scary-looking map, with lines that rumor suggested were drawn to scale, is the product of an actual group called North America's SuperCorridor Organization (NASCO), which is a consortium of public and private entities. But contrary to conspiracy theorists, the map does not show a new highway. Those bright blue lines show only I-35 and I-29 – interstates that already exist. On its Web site, NASCO says it and some of the local governments along I-35 have been referring to that route as the "NAFTA Superhighway" for years.

    NASCO: "NAFTA Superhighway" - As of late, there has been much media attention given to the "new, proposed NAFTA Superhighway". NASCO and the cities, counties, states and provinces along our existing Interstate Highways 35/29/94 (the NASCO Corridor) have been referring to I-35 as the 'NAFTA Superhighway' for many years, as I-35 already carries a substantial amount of international trade with Mexico, the United States and Canada. There are no plans to build a new NAFTA Superhighway - it exists today as I-35.

http://cdn.factcheck.org/imagefiles/2008.02.06_wrongpaul/NAFTA%20Superhighway.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM

I don't know for sure if this "North American Union" is a hoax or if it is real.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

http://www.zombietime.com/prairie_fire/pfdedication2.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM

Sawzaw,I believe you misunderstood. I am not placing the blame on McCain anymore than Obama, ok?

CarolC, I believe you clarified your leeriness of Obama...or lack of it, but not much else, as to the other bigger questions.

The bigger questions, that nobody knows how to answer, because the candidates, and the media is avoiding it(especially Obama..but both) is: 'If the North American Union, becomes inclusive of Mexico, AND CENTRAL AMERICA(down to Panama, as planned), Will Obama's welfare re-distribution of our paychecks, be inclusive of all the North American continent, including Canada?'
NOW, ISN'T THAT WORTH ASKING???????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:35 PM

Buffet on the socilistic bailout bill that CC blames on McCain:

Buffett warns Congress Lawmakers face "biggest financial meltdown in American history" if they don't act.

AMERICA'S MONEY CRISIS / CNN
   
(New York) -- Legendary investor Warren Buffett (Obama's "unbelievable friend" and "one of the people I listen to.")warned Congressional leaders Saturday night of "the biggest financial meltdown in American history" if they did not act to secure the financial system.

Buffett, by telephone, was consulted by lawmakers who were in marathon talks on Capitol Hill to forge a deal on the administration's $700 billion economic bailout plan, according to two sources.

One lawmaker in the negotiations said that the participants called Warren Buffett to get his help in gauging potential market reaction.

Congressional leaders said shortly after midnight Saturday that they had reached a tentative deal. Members of both parties and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson were aiming to craft final legislation by Sunday evening -- in time for the start of financial markets around the world...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:29 AM

Sawz:

You put out more codswallop per sqaure post than an army of prepubescent boys.

THere is no evidence that Barack Obama's thinking is anything other than what he says it is. Why do you keep searching so desperately from bogey-men and scary poster-monsters to try and intimidate people from using their common sense and listening to the man's thoughts as he presents them?

At least come up with some concrete evidence that any such influence exists and that if it does exist it is in any way at all a "negative" influence in some way.

LEt me put it another way: do you thik the President of the United States should be ignorant of Palestinian issues, or that by learning about them he in some way is disloyal to his friendship with ISrael? Do you think hatred is more important than information in a leader? Thse are the impressions you are producing, FWIW.


What ideas do you think Khalid might have infected Barack Obama with? WHat evidence do tyou have that he is vulnerable to such infection? I woudl guess "None".



A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM

Guest from "Sanity"?

I missed your question at first but I believe I have answered it.

If not, ask me again and I will attempt to answer.

"Only an idiot would vote for that system if they weren't a member of the corporate elite themself."

You are taking on the air of elitism yourself and you are attributing your personal definition of the bailout bill entirely to McCain and exonerating the Democrats who voted for it, after it was ammended to suit them, as you attempted to do with GLBA.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:05 AM

"large corporations get to keep all of the profits, and the taxpayers get to take on all of the risk."

How is this attributable to McCain without including Obama and everybody that voted for the bailout?

If the Dems are so non socialistic and the Repubs so socialistic, all the Dems had to do was vote against the bill to prove it.

After explaining that, explain how Khalidi influenced McCain with his ideology?

And explain how Khalidi did not influence Obama even though they had a long, close personal relationship and discussed ideologial matters?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:13 AM

Let's have another look at my statement...

I'm not leery of Obama because of those charges that a bunch of liars have been spreading about him

As we can see, what I said is that I am not leery of Obama. Let's go over that one again... I in this case, refers to me. I (me, not anyone else) am not leery of Obama. Let's take that one apart. Leery = suspicious, wary. I am not leery of Obama. That's pretty straightforward. Let's move on...

I am not leery of Obama, despite the lies that people have been telling about him. It looks like I am being told to prove that the things I am calling lies about Obama are not true. I said I already did prove them to be lies and not true.

In the context of my statement, ie: that I am not leery of Obama because of any lies that have been told about him, the operative word is "I". I am not leery of Obama. I am not leery of Obama because I have proved to my satisfaction, that the accusations being spread about Obama are lies.

Since it is my being leery, or my lack of being leery that is in question (in regards to my original statement), I don't need to prove it to the satisfaction of anyone else. I only need to prove it to my satisfaction.

I don't have to justfy my opinions to anyone, nor do I have to justify how I vote to anyone. Anyone who thinks they have a right to dictate others' opinions or their votes has some serious delusions of grandeur. (As do people who say that something I have been saying for years right here in the open forum is "echoing" something being said by someone who showed up fairly recently.)

On the subject of proving to my satisfaction that Obama is not a socialist... if he was, his health care program would be single payer, not for profit. Which is the health care model I personally prefer. He's not doing that. His approach is largely a market based one, in which the capitalist insurance companies get to continue to make a profit off of sick people. Nevertheless, it is abundantly apparent that we will not get a single payer not for profit health care system in this country any time soon, so I am willing to settle for a system in which I am able to obtain health insurance through the market (which I cannot do now).

As far as his being a radical is concerned. Let's have a look at that. For some reason, some people seem to think that Obama is the only person in the world who is not allowed to have any associations with Bill Ayers whatever without being accused of having ties to domestic terrorists. He is the only person in the whole world who is not allowed to have any associations whatever with Bill Ayers without being called a radical. The idiocy of that formulation really shouldn't require any comment from me (so sad, then, that some people seem to think that it does).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:47 AM

typo in other one

I didn't say deny the charges. What I meant by 'prove', I was referring to giving sources as to where the lie (or misunderstanding)originated from, and show it was a lie..and his RECORD to show otherwise...something concrete!..Because so far, he is not credible for being on the up and up. He has made too many mistakes to simply disregard! By every indication, there is just too much evidence, just in his past associations!....Can't you see that nothing substantial has been given from him??..When his history shows just the opposite?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:40 AM

I didn't say deny the charges. I meant by 'prove', I was not referring give sources as to where the lie originated from, and his RECORD to show otherwise...something concrete!..Because so far, he is not credible for being on the up and up. He has made too many mistakes to simply disregard!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:23 AM

Already did prove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:01 AM

From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:55 AM

We have reason to be leery of any politician. ---RIGHT!!!

I'm not leery of Obama because of those charges that a bunch of liars have been spreading about him.---THEN PROVE IT!!!

And the post I am now responding to is a prime example of why I am fairly convinced that the person who posted it is campaigning for McCain.---FALSE! I AM NOT A McCAIN SUPPORTER, SO LETS NOT DEFLECT LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:55 AM

We have reason to be leery of any politician. But if we want to participate in the process (and some of us do), we have to decide who we think is most likely to make the changes we think the country needs. There's nothing wrong with people doing that. What is wrong, is if, after the candidate they voted for gets elected, they don't hold that person's feet to the fire the entire time they're in office.

I'm not leery of Obama because of those charges that a bunch of liars have been spreading about him. The people doing that want me to vote for McCain so they can continue giving my tax money to people who don't need it. The people I'm leery of are the ones who I know are trying to mislead me into voting against my best interests.

And the post I am now responding to is a prime example of why I am fairly convinced that the person who posted it is campaigning for McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:48 AM

Carol echos what I have been saying all along..a mixture(I used the word 'balance'). When people hear the word 'Socialist',one conjures up a type as 'Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republic, and to ask questions about that, before one votes, IS A LEGITIMATE QUESTION!..Don't you think??

With all the hemming and hawing, from the Obama camp don't you think it reasonable, that people should be leery? There are just too many unanswered questions, and allegations surrounding him, and his past associates for MANY to feel completely comfortable with just what kind of socialism, and how much.

McCain, on the other hand, supported a 'corporate socialism', which to a lot of people, for just cause, to feel equally uncomfortable, considering, that he has been linked to supporting some of the policies of this past administration..so to ask questions, and seek answers, is also NOT UNREASONABLE!

That being said, there are also BIG questions that this whole socialist topic has many watchful citizens, frustrated about for not getting straight up answers...BECAUSE NOBODY IS ASKING THE RIGHT QUESTIONS!!!

For instance: With the North American Union, we dissolve our borders, and change our currency.....These 'treaties' are going on without ANY press, and the American public knows hardly anything about these ongoing 'arrangements'. the press must not think this an issue that interest us,..or it's being kept from us. 'You sir, being a candidate for president, what is your position on that?'(either one, preferably both!!)............'Sir, the last administration heaped upon itself unprecedented executive powers, that by any interpretation of the law, is unconstitutional, What is your position, and would you pledge to rescind them?'(both)
'Sir, in recent events extraordinary powers were given to the Treasurer to get money from the Federal Reserve, without oversight or even a vote from either house..coupled with the executive powers, which the president now has(unconstitutionally), how would you change that???...Being as you both are claiming 'Change'??'

Now, don't you think those are REASONABLE questions for the presidential candidates to be addressing, instead of 'How much did the RNC spend on Sarah Palin's clothes'?????

And Amos, you still haven't answered the earlier question. I would expected you would have dropped your pom-poms, and jumped right in with a talking point. I take it that your out gathering up your camel!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:27 AM

McCain's brand of socialism (these days) is corporate socialism, in which the large corporations get to keep all of the profits, and the taxpayers get to take on all of the risk. As Ms Palin is supposed to have said, "Thanks, but no thanks." Only an idiot would vote for that system if they weren't a member of the corporate elite themself.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:24 AM

Yes, things he has done himself - like consorting with terrorists and having close ties with Khalidi.

McCain's definitely a radical, but he's a Neocon radical, and we've seen how much damage they can do. It's time for the Neocon radicals to go the way of the dinosaurs.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:18 AM

These opinions seem to indicate Socialism is good and socialism is what we need.

It'd be good if he was

I only wish he were.

I see socialism as the normal state of affairs.

If he was a socialist, all the more reason to vote for him

Canadians have been praying for years that a socialist would get elected

Obama is a socialist, you say? God, I hope so!! One more reason to vote for him!

I's about time!

So if Obama is not a socialist, he is not the man to vote for.

On the other hand if the Republican bailout bill is socialism, They are the ones to vote for, not Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:11 AM

"McCain is pointing fingers at Obama for stuff he has done himself."

Like having dinner with Khalidi and his wife on a regular basis and shooting the shit? Like being a board member along with a domestic terrorist?

If McCain is as radical as Obama, why not vote for him? He gave even more money to Khalidi so he must be a better guy.


"Who's got it wrong here????" If what you say is true, obviously the people that vote for Obama are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:54 AM

I should also mention that one of the reasons I prefer Obama's kind of socialism over McCain's kind of socialism is because McCain's kind of socialism favors the very rich, while Obama's favors everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:49 AM

My answer to the question would be that we always have had, and we always will have, a mixture of capitalism and socialism in this country (as I have been saying here in this forum for years), and candidates finger pointing at other candidates about being "socialists" is extremely dishonest. And I've already shown that McCain is as much of a socialist as Obama.

I'm all for a mixture of capitalism and socialism. I expect that Obama will, as all other presidents before him, support our having such a mixture. Whether or not he will live up to my hopes for his presidency remains to be seen. But I'll never find out if he doesn't get elected. So that one's a no brainer.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:12 AM

Say what you want..but still no answer!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:10 AM

You're projecting again, Minnie.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:48 AM

Better start looking for your camel, if you can't answer the question. And knock it off with the avoidances, and subject changes!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:40 AM

WHo's got it wrong is the asinine proponents of the attack line. No-one said socialism is what the country needs, nor does Obama offer it. Social awareness, social compassion, better social methods, sure. That doesn't make him a socialist, and you guys are just going barmy with your hyper-associating things. Cut it out.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:25 AM

500!!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:24 AM

Still no answer to the question!!!!!

Perhaps it is found in Phil Ochs song 'Love me, I'm a Liberal'



"Love Me, I'm a Liberal"
       Ochs Phil

Album: There But for Fortune
        
I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:14 AM

Like I said, giving him almost a half million dollars trumps having dinner with Khalidi any day. McCain gave him almost a half million dollars. Obama gave him a few tens of thousands of dollars and had dinner with him. McCain's a lot deeper in the hole with Khalidi than Obama is by a long way.

Ayers may not have held a party for McCain's political coming out, but the terrorist, G Gordon Liddy, did hold a fund raising event for McCain's Senate campaign.

So it is a fact that McCain is pointing fingers at Obama for stuff he has done himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:12 AM

From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:40 AM

Looking back through the ardent protests that Obama is not a socialist, and yet we need socialism, I am wondering then, why vote for Obama if he is not what is needed?

Great point Sawzaw!!!!

If socialism is what everybody wants...why vote for someone who claims he isn't one, denounces it, and all his past influences to that?? Who's got it wrong here????

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:40 AM

Looking back through the ardent protests Obama is not a socialist and that we need socialism . I am wonereing then why vote for Obama if he is not what is needed>

"The rich have been screwing the poor for centuries. That's how they got rich in the first place!"

Obama got rich by screwing the poor so why vote for him?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:38 AM

So, now it appears,..and shown on the news, that Ayers writes a book, and one of the people who it is dedicated to, is Sirhan Sirhan. Book's name is 'Prairie Fire:.....'

Another thing to add to the list of things that might, and should give pause, to truly look into just how close these two were. To merely dismiss it is absolute stupid boneheadedness. Robert Kennedy was one of America's best, in the last 50 years!

No spin needed....just rather have the truth of their relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:12 AM

"People who condemn others for what they (or their candidates) are doing themselves,"

So McCain dined with Khalidi and his wife and shot the shit regularly?

Ayers Held a party for McCain's political coming out?

If McCain is all that radical why not vote for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:10 PM

No argument there!..I wish that the one coming in, was the ONLY other option. That in itself, speaks volumes...The pendulum, of time, swings both ways, whether anyone 'controls' it or not. I pray that the pendulum does not swing out of control..either way!! Damage on both,the furthest apex,..correction..not over-compensation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 07:22 PM

""Brezinski, who stood out for his relatively hawkish views in an administration that often emphasized human rights, told the crowd that by invading Iraq the "United States has become engaged in what is essentially a colonial war in the post-colonial era." He also opined that the Iraq war "has discredited America worldwide," and warned that the conflict in Iraq might spread to Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan.""

Well as far as I can see, he's one hundred percent right about all of that, so maybe it's worth consideration that he may also be dead right in supporting Obama.

As an inhabitant of a country dragged willy-nilly into this insane and illegal war, I want to see the Repubs lose so badly that it takes fifty years for the party to recover. I want exactly the same in two years time for the current dishonest, ineffectual government of my own country, for slavishly following the Shrub in his oil grabbing venture.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:27 PM

Oh, as long as 'ultimatums' are being thrown out there by Amos Lewinski I'll put it to you this way..either by Machiavellian Principle, (McCain), or mandate,(Obama), the government is, or is going to be owning everything, and we will end up being its humble servants (read:indentured). But, I guess that's ok, for all those who get their welfare checks, and pass value judgments, on everyone else. It's all headed in the same direction..as bit by bit, the Constitution is replaced piecemeal by all these 'remedial' progressions.

So, your choice, to be controlled by corrupt corporate government,..or corrupt political machine that runs a corrupt political government?? Your choice, or hop on YOUR camel!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:03 PM

From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM

You can call a pig a rose, too, but that doesnj't mean it is qualified to be Vice-President.

Look, just because Obama slipped a little in the polls, is no reason to blame his VP choice!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:11 PM

GfS--

I notice you are evading a simple question, even though you argue that the label suits Mister Obama.

Define your terms, or fold your tent, camel and all.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guerst from Sanity
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:05 PM

From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM
....Find out what a socialist really is.

Not that it would make much difference. . . .

Parr for the course...Truth doesn't seem to matter in this years elections...So, i agree with you!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM

These folks who keep tossing the word "socialist" around and accusing candidates they don't like of being one should maybe read a book. Find out what a socialist really is.

Not that it would make much difference. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM

IF you do not define "socialism" by the ownership of the means of production, GfS, how do you define it? You can call a pig a rose, too, but that doesnj't mean it is qualified to be Vice-President.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:20 PM

A driver's license means that the possessor has successfully passed written and practical examinations involving the operation of a motor vehicle - nothing more and nothing less. If the Federal government or anyone else thinks that an unforgeable national identity card or internal passport is necessary, let them submit legislation to Congress to require one. Using the first to substitute for the lack of the second only results in people driving around without passing those written and practical examinations - like the lady who rear-ended me a couple of years ago in West Albuquerque.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:02 PM

Amos,You can call him anything you want..'A Rose by any other name is still a Rose' -Shakespeare.

Carol, You mean you're soliciting even MORE criticism?? As I posted before, this WHOLE, (got that?)..WHOLE 'ELECTION' has been a rather sad(to say the least) chapter, in American history. The animosity, and divisions that it brought with it, by design, I take it, has been extremely unfortunate, and damaging.

One good thing I just heard on the news, because the economy has been so bad, the illegal Mexicans are going back home.....after, helping to wreck the economy by working tax free, and shipping the money back out of our country to Mexico.

Speaking of which, Carol, this should make you happy...When McCain .reached across the aisle, so to speak, and attempted that lame bill, to give driver's licenses, to ILLEGAL immigrants, that finished him to me, as far as I was concerned!..Now smile!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 01:32 PM

Obama is not a socialist in any formal sense of the word.

At best you could call him a moderate populist. He has no interest in seeing a government own the means of production, and in fact wants very much to accelerate the ownership of th emeans of production by small business owners. That is the opposite of socialism and 180 degrees out of line with Marx. So, Sawz, your reasonable sounding assertions are kind of out there in cloud-cuckoos-ville.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: goatfell
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 12:28 PM

An American a socialist that's like the Pope going to an Orange hall and singing the sash.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:56 AM

I'm sorry, but I am unable to accept the claim that there's no bias toward McCain by the poster in question. All of the criticism of McCain from this poster are accompanied by a criticism of Obama. This poster never criticizes McCain independently of a criticism of Obama. But they make many, many criticisms of Obama (including many accusations that have no basis in reality) independently of any criticism of McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM

Notice: Earlier today I posted a post, that began with 'Mr. Machine,..' After re-reading it, after it was up, I thought there might be some misunderstanding in what I meant. Just in case, you took it wrong too, it was meant satirically in large portions.

Carol, No, I don't have a McCain bias,(even though Sarah is more attractive than Biden), but who listens to VP's once their in office(except Bush listening to Cheney).

No Carol, I'm really discouraged, about this election, and this country, for allowing this circus to go on, and get to this point. It has taken on a Monty Python-like parody, insulting everything our country has stood for, and all the hard working, industrious generations, of people, who lived, worked, fought and died, for us to enjoy the freedom and liberty we once had. I feel like all of their sacrifices, heritage, hopes, dreams and aspirations, for their families, and families to come, are turning to dust, in front of our eyes. I feel that the corruption, and decay of moral values, not only in the political arena, and in personal lives, is both decadent and deteriorating, as we are wildly cheering it on madly. I think this election has made a mockery of honesty, integrity morality, and decency. I think, that the most important issues of national security, and personal security have been artfully avoided, by both sides. I think the Constitution is being shredded before our eyes. I think that since Eisenhower,(at least), our nation has been more 'entertained' by so-called presidents, than led by statesmen. I think the last 20 years of the two family dynasty(Bush-Clinton era), has been a travesty, and has done unbelievable damage, from which we may never recover.

I could go on...and I'd be correct, too...but it's no use kidding ourselves, or propping up our enthusiasm. A month ago, 17% of voters could not decide...that's huge, if you think they can't just 'decide'. It's more like, deciding whether to drink poison, hang yourself, slit your wrists or shoot yourself in the head...vote for your favorite way to go...and that's the analogy of why undecideds can't decide..at this late in the game. In any way one looks at it, there is an ominous feeling of impending doom, hanging over this election, and nobody is being honest about it.

As for me?...Historically, some of the most beautiful art, has been pressed out of the souls of men during times like this, and captured in music, or in literature, so so and so forth. While, this crap has been going on, for as long as it has, there is another side of the heart, that can be expressed...and has been..but not so much in here, but in my music. Though it is performed instrumentally, the most common re-action has been the listener spacing out to some place of inner identification, while tears just fall out of their eyes, and silently roll down their faces, without shame, or control. This has been now the most common response,...and I'm sitting here(or in the studio) with this little jewel of a gift, from God, to touch people like this, and sit and wonder...why are people doing what they are doing to each other, so deliberately, hurtfully, and recklessly, when there is so much beauty inside us all we have to share?.......
Good Night, Regards
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:53 AM

Some of us see it differently. And pointing out lies and double standards is not the same thing as making excuses.

I detect a strong bias in favor of McCain in the one who claims to be against both candidates. I don't think that person is really against both. I think they're definitely campaigning for McCain, but pretending to be against both candidates because that person thinks that by doing so they can fool us into not voting for Obama. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:38 AM

I think that with all the time spent, for the Obama supporters, TYPING excuses, 'explanations' 're-clarifying' spinning, denying, and all, to the amount they seem compelled to do,(and at such great length), that if that same time was spend, practicing on your instruments, you'd all be one hell of a picker..(or keyboardist).....

This whole Obama-McCain debate, is really a waste of precious time. The two sides are both too polarized, while still serving the same purpose. The thread name is 'Obama is a socialist'...well, he is, okay? and with a Marxist slant. McCain is too, with a Bush/quasi fascist slant. I think there is enough data, clearly pointing that out. I also think, that the associations from both, have serious implications, that one should look at objectively...but when you do, and step back, and think about it, and all the wasted time and effort, with such 'fervor', you're stuck with one thing. To take a serious look, you have to 'get serious'.....and then when its all said and done, you look back, catch yourself, think, then grin, and say to yourself, 'Get Serious!'