BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 08:34 PM

'Twas I who said "I believe Thompson and Venables should have been kept in secure care until they were 18 then sentenced as adults with a complete understanding of what they had done and the full consequences of their actions." That allows for the possibility of being sentenced only for manslaughter or taking into account the time they already spent incarcerated, depending on the seriousness of the case. I wasn't suggesting the inflexibility of capital punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 08:20 PM

They are not 10 years old anymore so they can now be put to death? Is that convoluted thinking or what?

I noticed earlier that you said that they should be "sentenced" now; you never mentioned the possibility of a new trial. So you are saying that if one does something horrific at age 10 (or age 6? Or age whatever?) and survives to age 20 (or age 18?) that person should now be killed?

I wonder how you would go about it: On his or her 20th birthday, perhaps? Maybe at midnight there could be footsteps outside one's cell...

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 06:44 PM

Actually Josepp, ignore my last post, it was irrelevant hairsplitting now I think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 06:25 PM

I reckon we're all born without a conscience, but maybe some are born without the capacity to develop one.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 06:17 PM

////I believe that once someone becomes a sociopath, they don't change.////

You're right. If you're born without a conscience or have it squashed out of you via severe childhood abuse, you can't acquire one later on. You either have one or you don't.

Most sociopaths are not dangerous and will never hurt anyone--they simply have no feelings of love or affection for anyone other than themselves. They're a pain in the ass but little else.

What criminal sociopaths do is learn to mimic real people as they get older. For example, a couple loses their son who was fighting overseas. The sociopath will see others offering their condolences to the bereaved couple. As he gets older, the socipath realizes that he must do the same so that his deficiency is not apparent.

If a coworker is hurt in a car wreck, the sociopath will express great concern for this person's well being not because he is concerned--he has no cpacity for it--but because he knows that this is what is expected of him as an adult. It's purely a survival mechanism--a way of not being caught, of not standing out in a bad way. One of the best examples I can give is Dennis Rader, the BTK killer.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 06:11 PM

I appreciate that, Josepp, thank you. Mind you, I still think you're being a bit harsh..

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 06:07 PM

Dear Jim Carroll,

I NEVER said I condone the execution of 10-year-olds. I simply said these two should be put to death--they're not 10 anymore, are they?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 05:46 PM

I believe that once someone becomes a sociopath, they don't change. If there are experts here, I'd be happy to hear your views. I could be wrong, and I hope I am. It might well be that a 10 year old can be a sociopath who doesn't identify with other people and is incapable of empathizing. Even those people can learn not to do things that will get them in trouble. These kids never learned that, and I think they remained a danger to society.

I don't think the death penalty is acceptable for children, but they should be kept somewhere where they never have access to potential victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 05:44 PM

The notion, DMK, not the fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 05:38 PM

"Brothers with identical upbringings can turn out very different."
Upbringing, while a major formative influence, is not the only one on our lives.
"No Jim, not by me it's not,"
Then what - if not built-in evil?
There has been no effort here on anybody's part to move from blaming two legal and actual ten-year-old children for what they became to commit the crimes they committed - and a refusal to accept any suggestion that others might have played a part in their making.
"Leading to the notion that no-one is to blame for anything."
We are still talking about ten-year-old children.
Nobody has suggested an alternative to setting a limit of responsibility for criminal acts, nor has had the courage to discuss the implication for other children, including their own for criminal behavior.
If adults here refuse to face responsibility head on - is it fair to expect two ten-year-olds to face up to their acts?
I'm not putting words in your mouth Silas, but it would be interesting if you did.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 05:33 PM

Saying it's all down to nurture' does not lead to the notion that no-one is to blame for anything. While there is a genetic component to one's personality, there comes apoint in one's life when responsibility has to be accepted for one's 'sins' even if they were inadvertent - Sophocles put it very well in 'Oedipus Rex' where Oedipus, although he had no way of knowing that he was committing patricide and incest, accepted the responsibilty for his actions and resultant punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 04:29 PM

It's nonsensical to say it's all down to nurture. If you blame the parents, their shortcomings must be down to nurture too, and so the grandparents', great grandparents', ad infinitum. Leading to the notion that no-one is to blame for anything. In effect, it's not much different to a genetic trait.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 03:58 PM

No Jim, not by me it's not, so please don't put words in my mouth. However, it's not all nurture as you well know. Brothers with identical upbringings can turn out very different.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 03:43 PM

Ebbie, I'm not complaining, and that's only one way of looking at it. :-)

So far though, their ruthless training has working perfectly & I am a devoted slave.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 03:36 PM

Oh, dear, Smokey- I fear for you. :)


No. I do NOT believe that a child is born 'evil', whatever that is at that age. To believe that tripe would be to go back two hundred and more years. How many here - I'm referring to perhaps three Mudcatters - would have been happy with the goings on in Salem, Massachusetts? Hold fast to your beliefs regarding these children and you would likely have found yourself on the committee that condemned those 'witches' to death - and rejoiced at it.

Hey. I think I have just convinced myself of the truth of reincarnation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 03:27 PM

Can honestly say I've never met a three/six/nine-month-old 'narsty bastard'.

Ah, that's because you were fooled by their evil manipulation techniques. They are survival machines with no conscience at that age, and as soon as they have teeth, they will bite you and laugh at your screams.

Or is that just mine?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 02:44 PM

"Do you not accept that some people are just not nice?"
Can honestly say I've never met a three/six/nine-month-old 'narsty bastard'.
Children are a blank page - you and me 'write the story' - get it wrong - take the consequences.
"Anyone remember the Bad Seed'
Yeah, and Damien, and The Omen, and The Exorcist; and read Bradbury's The Small Assassin, and The Veldt, and James's Turn of The Screw - great entertainment, but they're all fairy stories.
Does anybody seriously believe in 'original sin' and inherent evil?
That is what is being proposed here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 01:47 PM

I gave examples of people who had actually declared their support for the execution of ten year olds

Yes Jim, twice, but we don't agree on them. End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 11:48 AM

What a pity that they were not struck by lightning. (Anyone remembe the Bad Seed?)

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 11:26 AM

Well Jim, the 'nature/nuture' thing.
Do you really belive that deliquency of any form is due to nuture? Do you not accept that some people are just not nice?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 11:17 AM

"Some are born with no lights at all in the Sympathy, Empathy and Caring department."
Lizzie, you appear to be re-inventing human anatomy to create a new born-a- monster' species; sorry - such creatures are formed by personal circumstances and not born - Ray Bradbury fantasized them brilliantly in a couple of his short stories.
"they should have been kept away from the public until it could confidently be shown that they were not a menace to society."
And presumably it was judged that they were - I don't believe that the crimes committed by Venables, which he almost certainly picked up while incarcerated, counts as failure. If he were to continue with violent criminal activity, that would be a different matter and would be presumably acted on by he authorities. Thankfully Britain doesn't operate a three-strikes-and-you're-out, as does America.
Nothing that has been put forwards here persuades me in any way that this, or any other case should be taken out of the hands of those responsible and put in the hands of what is essentially a vigilante (even lynch) mob.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 05:15 AM

It's a brain thing, Eliza. Some are born with no lights at all in the Sympathy, Empathy and Caring department.

Hitler surrounded himself with such brains, of course. Whether he was born that way, or became that way after both his parents committed suicide, who knows.

Either way, I think it's very hard to turn those lights back on again, particularly if there are no electrical connections there in the first place in which to place 'new bulbs'...

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 05:03 AM

··· "It was Jim "
I qualified my comment Mike····

I know you did, Jim. There was no critical or contentious intent or any such in my statement here; just that posters had been arguing about who first intro'd the concept of 'victim', so I was trying to settle the matter in quoting your post simply as a matter of fact.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 03:57 AM

Well, no, Jim, for many many years the qualified doli incapax rule applied permitting acquittal of those between 10 and 14 if they did not know that what they were doing was wrong. We did indeed apply criminal sanctions on the basis of individual understanding, and, it seems to me, rightly so. This charming pair demonstrated over and over again that they knew that they were doing wrong and that they could escape retribution because they were under 10. They were, as I said before, career criminals.

So, first, from the point of view of punishment, they deserved punishment as much as any other criminal.

Secondly, from the point of view of protection of society they should have been kept away from the public until it could confidently be shown that they were not a menace to society.

The third purpose of a prison/restraint regime is rehabilitation, and that evidently failed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 03:37 AM

"It occurs to me that the reason children are not punished as severely as others is that they know no better"
The reason they are not punished severely is that it is regarded that up to a certain age they are not deemed as being fully responsible for their actions - to develop a situation where the authorities can decide that one individual is responsible and another is not would lead to the blackest of black farces - come on Richard - you can do better than that.
We don't send young people to school at a set age, or allow them to freely view certain films, or buy cigarettes, or drink alchohol.... or whatever age restriction we put on their activities, on the basis of their individual capabilities, we - rightly - set a limit for ALL children; otherwise any restriction would be unworkable.
"If anyone actually supports the execution of ten year olds under UK law"
I gave examples of people who had actually declared their support for the execution of ten year olds - this question arose by your claiming it had not happened. Maybe your question should have been' does aybody else....?"
"It was Jim "
I qualified my comment Mike - I have in no way said I agree with what Lizzie said, and I'm not sure I do, but if she is right then they have been made what they are by adult activities - porn, video games and horrifically violent films that present violence as a virtue and an entertainment.
Coincidentally, I glimpsed about ten minutes of one of the films that was said to have been one of their influences - Child's-play (Chucky) 2 - pretty revolting stuff and still freely available on openly accessible television channels for the 'entertainment' of our children.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 05:48 PM

The documentary about which this thread was started seemed to be implying that they were some sort of victims, though I didn't catch much of it. I got the impression it was a bit of a damage limitation exercise though. I imagine a lot of people disapproved of their release, and in Venables' case were proved right. However, whatever 'made' them like they were, the end result was the same, and public safety should be the first priority, regardless of how old they were at the time. What I'd like to know is, if they had to let them out, why they weren't watching them a damn sight more closely than was obviously the case. Whoever was responsible for those decisions owes the public an explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,lurcio
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:25 PM

Anyone called Mark Stevens on here?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:19 PM

It was Jim ~~ here's the quote in b&w. Why is anyone arguing?

"We don't know that Lizzie, but if you are right, then the perpetrators become victims themselves.
Jim Carroll" --

-- followed by, from Silas, "Yes, I was wondering when these evil little bastards would become victims". [yesterday 2.09 pm].

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 03:16 PM

Nope! twernt me that said they were victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 09:53 AM

Jim, I wasn't actually asking you that question, and your quotes aren't referring to ten year olds; they are in the present tense. If anyone actually supports the execution of ten year olds under UK law, I'm sure they can speak up for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 08:42 AM

It occurs to me that the reason children are not punished as severely as others is that they know no better. This two did. They'd been playing the system for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 07:58 AM

Whatever Rich, but still no substitute for evidence for your lying claims, innit!!
Back to the discussion in hand if you've no great objection, old man!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 06:07 AM

Well Jim, I think Teribus and Keith finished you off publicly a long time back. They put your bizarre theories and lack of credible response to questions into the spotlight for many of us. Maybe you are better off just banging the drum with Des Dalton and the boys !

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 05:31 AM

"Nope, it wasn't me that said that, it was 'Silas'
Sorry Lizzie - crossed wires here - you raised the point of horror films and video games playing a part in making Venables and Thomson what they were - I agreed with you (with qualifications) - it was this I was referring to, and is part of the reason for my holding the opinions that I do.
If I was the cause of the confusion, I apologise.
"Is that the clarification which Jim Carroll requested"
Didn't need clarification Wampum; I was already quite clear on the fact that Richie is a lying moron.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 05:19 AM

"does anyone here actually think that UK law should allow for the execution of ten year olds?"
Silas
"Permanent incarceration or capital punishment are the only two options."
Josepp
Personally, I'm with Richie Black. Fry the fuckers. As if any of you will really lose a wink of sleep over it. Sanctimonious bastards--all of you."
Josepp again
"I have no sympathy for then whatsoever. They should be killed. "
Silas again
"we should employ specialists for this sort of work, no good having amatures bungling the job."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,wampum
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 05:08 AM

Is that the clarification which Jim Carroll requested?

Poor show Mr Black.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 05:00 AM

Yet again Jim Carroll makes a statement and then tries to distance himself from it with a belated u turn. That one is played out Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:57 AM

"Yes, I was wondering when these evil little bastards would become victims."
I didn't say that - Lizzie did.>>>>


Nope, it wasn't me that said that, it was 'Silas'.

Please get the originators of your qoutes correct, Jim, else it causes confusion and put words into the wrong mouths giving misleading ideas about people.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 04:53 AM

In the end, it boils down to whether you believe people can be born evil or whether circumstances, influences, upbringing, education, etc, make them/us what they/we are. I firmly believe the latter, and so does the state - the murderous gene is an invention of science fantasy and will remain so until proved otherwise. It is what separates civilisation from savagery (and Texas).
Most civilised societies recognise that fact and set a limit at which an individual can be made fully answerable for their actions.
Venables and Thomson were only two thirds through their 'childhood' period when they did what they did and had five years to go before they reached full accountability.
As horrific as these events were, you cannot pick-'n-mix; it goes for all people and all crimes or it goes for none - if the latter, this pair will not only have killed a child, but they will have contributed to retuning our society to a state of savagery.
"I see you are now supporting this new group in Northern Ireland that claimed the Omagh attack"
I don't for one minute expect a reply to this, but whenever did I do this?
I think they are murderous thugs, and I always have done - show me were I have ever said otherwise.
You really are the pits - and dim with it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 09:52 PM

For clarification, just in case I've got this wrong, does anyone here actually think that UK law should allow for the execution of ten year olds?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 08:33 PM

We seem to have different interpretations of what has been said, Jim, and I think rather than bore people silly arguing pointlessly over nothing, we should show a little respect for the victims here, and agree to differ.

My original point was that (in my opinion) it was irresponsible to let Thompson and Venables out when they did. If you think it was the right thing to do, it's your prerogative, but forgive me for not sharing your enthusiasm.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 08:33 PM

I have only just picked up this thread and I have to say how much I admire Jim for sticking to the point in the face of such vitriol. The fact still remains these horrific crimes were carried out by 10 year old children.

Saying that is not to take away from the horror of the events, or to minimise the pain of Jamie's parents but to ask the question " How have we managed to bring up two little boys so badly and what are we going to do about it?"

Several people have made the point that these two were already well down the road to their criminality by the time they carried out this outrage, so they were even younger than ten when their fate was sealed?

I am sure that like all children they knew right from wrong, what they did not have was a normal sense of proportion, of the scale of the wrong, of the importance of human life, of the difference between this and all of the other things that they did wrong. These are things which normally develop as children grow to be adults.

We should be looking to put every effort into making sure such a crime
never happens again. The quick and easy answer of labelling these two as aberrant, evil monsters just born evil saves us the effort of trying to avoid raising two more like them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 08:00 PM

Ah as always Jim Carroll gets everything ass about face.

I see you are now supporting this new group in Northern Ireland that claimed the Omagh attack. You should be ashamed of yourself man.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 07:44 PM

Silas has called for capital punishment and confirmed it, I took Josepp seriously and in line with other calls here (as did Peter Laban), Richie Blackshirt has clearly called for capital punishment - as I said, pay attention.
"I don't really have any doubt that the two little bastards knew that what they were doing was wrong "
Then you have information the rest of us haven't, and the authorities have knowingly and maliciously released two psychopaths into the world to kill again - do I have that right?
I understood Broadmoor was a hospital for the criminal insane and did not cater for ten-year-olds - do I have that wrong?
Though locking a ten-year-old up with a bunch of murderous nutters is bound to make a man of him and teach him right from wrong?!!!!!
"Yes, I was wondering when these evil little bastards would become victims."
I didn't say that - Lizzie did.
"Those families still have their sons. It is a very different thing."
And still not a hint of recognition that everybody connected with this horrific case has suffered in one way or another - I thought it was me who is the heartless bastard?
"Sometimes, folks can become too focussed on those who committed the crime, rather than those who were the victim, that's all."
The cry of every vigilante itching to take the law into their own hands.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 04:04 PM

I was paying attention Jim. Two of your quotes are josepp's, and an obvious wind-up which should have been ignored, as everyone else did. The other two were not suggestions to execute ten year olds.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 03:46 PM

It seems to me that the absolute doli incapax rule is wrong, wrong, wrong.

I don't really have any doubt that the two little bastards knew that what they were doing was wrong - but revelled in that as they had previously revelled in being able to flout any rules on the ground of their age. This is based on "similar fact" anecdotes - my late wife was a social worker.

If their wrongdoing did result from inability to tell right from wrong, then their place is in Broadmoor until it can be shown with reasonable certainty that they do know right from wrong and will choose not to do wrong.

If they did know right from wrong then they should be imprisoned for the protection of the public - until it can be shown with reasonable certainty that they will choose not to do wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 02:09 PM

Yes, I was wondering when these evil little bastards would become victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM

"As far as I can see, no-one here has actually suggested executing 10 year old"
"Personally, I'm with Richie Black. Fry the fuckers. As if any of you will really lose a wink of sleep over it. Sanctimonious bastards--all of you."
"Sadly cases of sadistic murder or torture of children are rising. I am sorry if I lack sympathy or compassion, but in my opinion, any man that attacks, rapes or beats a woman or child forfeits his place in society. PERMINENTLY."
"I have no sympathy for then whatsoever. They should be killed. "
"Permanent incarceration or capital punishment are the only two options."
Pay attention Smokey
"They also didn't care much for their boys when they were smaller, pretty much left them to bring themselves up, in very dysfunctional families"
We don't know that Lizzie, but if you are right, then the perpetrators become victims themselves.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 12:36 PM

"And I see not a glimmer of sympathy from you for the families of Venables or Taylor - or a glimmer of understanding - beyond them being two monsters."

I have never called them 'monsters'...but what they did was inhuman.
Those families still have their sons. It is a very different thing.
They also didn't care much for their boys when they were smaller, pretty much left them to bring themselves up, in very dysfunctional families. Some kids who come from tough backgrounds go on to cause trouble, desperate to get some kind of attention...but this crime was sadistic. It was so far removed from breaking windows, stealing, being a bloody nuisance etc...

"How dare you suggest I have no sympathy for the families of all concerned?"

Good to hear that you obviously have. Sometimes, folks can become too focussed on those who committed the crime, rather than those who were the victim, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Apr 11 - 12:31 PM

As far as I can see, no-one here has actually suggested executing 10 year olds. The question of setting an age limit on criminal responsibility is a tough one, but I think the safety of the public should be a higher priority in this case.