BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 05:38 AM

I knew right from wrong at 10 years old, Jim. So did you. So do most 10 years olds, regardless of where they come from.


"Lizzie - are you for real or did Dame Barbara Cartland invent you?"


I am for real. I know the agonising pain of someone saying to me 'You're baby is dead', so I know, just a fraction, how Denis Bulger must have felt, must feel every day of her life...

As I said, it worries me greatly that I have seen barely any sympathy for this poor woman, or her son, coming from you.

You have NO understanding, no real understanding of the shock, the grief, the trauma that she lives with each and every day.

Be thankful.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 05:28 AM

Lizzie - are you for real or did Dame Barbara Cartland invent you?
"society has remained silent about the violence that is all around."
Society has also managed to remain silent about a great number of things not unconnected with these events.
I grew up on the Kirkby estate where the Bulgers live - I'll be there tomorrow afternoon visiting relatives.
I know what shit-holes they are, or certainly where when I was growing up, and I've seen what they can do to people - we have our own versions here in Ireland around Limerick City - or 'Stab City' as it's affectionately known.
You want to shriek "vengence" from two ten year olds - feel free to do so, but you have to ask yourself seriously - would your obvious mentor Mary Poppins approve?
"....what would have been your reaction"
Hardly a hypothesis to produce a rational reaction on my part, don't you think?
"The alternative is to lock them up forever."
And that's the only alternative we have as far as you're concerned Silas ?
"The fact that they were 10 years old does not in any way diminish the crime."
I think that you might find the law of the land might just disagree with you on that point - it may not diminish the effects of the crime but..... look it up..
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 04:54 AM

"I wonder if Silas could explain how an execution of a child should take place - would he be preaperd to carry it out himself or would he expect somebody else to do it on his behalf?
As a child of that age would be unlikely to break its neck when reaching the end of a drop, should it be left to strangle to death or would somebody have to pull the legs until it died.
Or maybe a weight could be added to its feet, with the risk of tearing the child's head off!!
Something to think about, doncha think??
Jim Carroll"

I've just seen this post from Jim. There are no easy answers, but as far as 'doing it myself', well, probably not, we should employ specialists for this sort of work, no good having amatures bungling the job. It may seem a bit distasteful executing children even if they are evil murderers. The alternative is to lock them up forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 04:08 AM

Jim, I don't know if you have children or not. Tell me this though, if your child had been Jamie, what would have been your reaction?

Would you have wanted nothing but kindness for these children?

Would you have felt 'a little bit cross' with them?

Or would you have keeled over in absolute grief that your child had been put through such absolute hell, prior to his horrific death and wanted those who had done it locked away for life?

I don't believe that minds which are not only capable of thinking such thoughts, but actually carrying them out, planning them beforehand, can ever be fully healed.

There are many disturbed children out there now, as I said earlier, because society has remained silent about the violence that is all around.

You talk of the disbelief of how society can want a Hangman, or how that person can carry out such a barbaric act....well, what is going on in society nowadays is also barbaric...because if you truly think that little children being fed a diet of unbelievable violence, of excrutiating vile images, in films, in computer 'games', let alone real life violence they are surrounded with, then you aren't even starting to raise your head above the parapet.

Children are FILMING other children being beaten up, by their mates. I mean WTF is that all about?????? Children now ENJOY violence! Their heads are filled with horrific images and thoughts...

My head was filled with Doris Day, Rock Hudson, Howard Keel, Gene Kelly, Deborah Kerr, Yul Bryner, the Carry On films...I wasn't raised on people being hacked to death, blood spurting out of every orifice, people being raped, murdered, cut into bits...!

There are some very, VERY sick people out there creating films, making 'games'...and children now sit for hours killing and killing and killing, often in the most terrible ways...

We have not progressed from the Horror of the Hangman, merely passed that outlook onto our children, as a species, for the Hangman felt that killing was right, he was unaffected by it, for the most part...that part of his soul cut off, desensitised, perhaps never having been there in the first place...so he was able to carry out his task then go home to bed and sleep. Same with those who torture...

And now, we bring our children up on all of this outlook...all of this killing, all of this hatred..and we wonder why we have the society we do.


I do not hear sympathy for you for Jamie's Mum and I find that deeply disturbing, to be honest.

If Venables or Thompson lived next door to me, I would be panic stricken to be honest, out of my mind, if I had little children.

I think that some crimes are so far removed from all that life is about that the only sentence is natural life, no matter what age the perpertrators are. Some minds are SO damaged they cannot be put back together again, and thus innocent members of society MUST be protected from them, at all costs.

I do not want to see children being hanged, but I really do feel that sometimes, life imprisonment should mean exactly that. I don't think Venables will ever 'turn his life around'...and I don't think he'll stop looking at child pornography either. I shudder at the thought of him being free again in a very short space of time, because I think his mind is severely broken..and whilst I feel sorry for that part of it all, my sympathy can only lie with the mother of little Jamie Bulger.

If these men were truly repentant for what they had done as children, truly understood what they had done, then I think they would have behaved very differently. Most certainly, one would NOT be behind bars, yet again.

And, I think that life inside prison, for Venables at least, would actually be far kinder, if kindess is what you want, Jim. There he is protected, he has a pattern, a routine to his days, to his life. He is surrounded by people who want to help him, who do not judge him and he would know, as society would also, that never again would he have the opportunity to commit another crime, ever again in his natural life. I think it would actually give him the security he may always have longed for, strange as that may appear to some.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 03:43 AM

"The fact that they were 10 years old does not in any way diminish the crime."

Jim posits a very good point, one that no-one has yet answered.
Should all Juvenile crime be treated in the same way as Adult crime, and the juvenile perpetrators treated the same as adults.
If not why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 03:39 AM

Jim. The fact that they were 10 years old does not in any way diminish the crime. It was not a game that got out of hand, it was a premeditated abduction, torture and murder.

10 yeas old or 20 years old, its still the same crime and its still the same victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 11 - 03:20 AM

"Jim ~~ Please read my post 01.39PM in response to yours more carefully, & you will see I am no Defarges, but, I repeat, profoundly ambivalent"
I'm aware of that Mike - I feel exactly the same way myself and I am as much at a loss as you, the deciding factor being that these were 10 year old children when this horrific act was committed. Perhaps I over-reacted in my response, but I find this hypocritical heart-on-sleeve handwringing by people whose primary interest or knowledge of these subjects doesn't extend beyond what they can scoop up from the net and put their name to.
We are talking about childrens' lives - three of them, not one, and the sheer horror of even considering taking two 10-year-old children and stringing them up - or even lethally injecting them, is probably as low as any 'civilised' society can sink.
"until they were 18 then sentenced as adults with a complete understanding of what they had done"
Can I get this straight Smokey - they should be punished as adults for what they did as children - should all juvenile crime be treated in this way - if not, why not?
Why differentiate at all between juvenile and adult crimes if they are going to be punished as adults anyway - let's cut to the chase.
Brady and Hindley were adults; whether they were fully responsible for their actions is, thankfully, not my business to decide. As here, I am happy to leave to those whose job it is. I am not prepared to see our justice system placed in the hands of the tabloid press, or with those who throw themselves at prison vans - or with ghouls who scream for blood on threads like this - are you?
"I would like to say that I believe it to be barbaric"
With you there Eliza; you should try to get hold of John Deane Potter's 'Fatal Gallows Tree - "an account of the British habit of hanging"' (if it is still in print). It has a wonderful description of The House of Lords' successful attempt to retain capital punishment in Britain in 1956 - they managed to delay it for a further eight years.
"From the hills of darkest Britain they came; the halt, the lame, the deaf, the obscure, the senile and the forgotten - the hereditary peers of England united in their detrmination to use their medieval powers to retain a medieval institution".
It seems their counterparts have bought themselves computers and joined chat forums.
Jim Carroll
PS Mike - thank you for not pointing out that I should have written DeFarge and not LaFarge.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM

Incarcerating them indefinitely is not only contrary to British law, but also would leave any government open to charges of contravening the statute of human rights.

They never let Brady and Hindley out. Should they have done?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 06:05 PM

I think that whoever is responsible for deciding whether, or when, such offenders are let back into society should somehow bear some responsibility for whatever happens as a consequence of their decision. They might be more careful about it then.

I believe Thompson and Venables should have been kept in secure care until they were 18 then sentenced as adults with a complete understanding of what they had done and the full consequences of their actions.

Mary Bell might well be a rehabilitated balanced human being for all I know, but no-one actually knows that for certain. I doubt if anyone here would be comfortable about employing her as a child minder.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 04:14 PM

On the previous thread it was I who had to keep reminding Jim that we were discussing children.
At least 3 died, and all were damaged.
It seems he only cares if they are offenders, not innocent victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 04:03 PM

Jim ~~ Please read my post 01.39PM in response to yours more carefully, & you will see I am no Defarges, but, I repeat, profoundly ambivalent on the matter of capital punishment: &, tho I would most certainly never wish to see a child punished in such a fashion, am much at a loss as to what would have been the right response in this most distressing instance.

Richie ~ I know we started off on wrong foot: but, bygones? & many thanks for your support in re the foolish & doctrinaire (& smartarse) McCormick.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 03:46 PM

As capital punishment has been mooted a few times in this thread, I would like to say that I believe it to be barbaric, and I'm very glad it's no longer a punishment here in UK. I've just finished reading an extremely interesting biography of James Berry, Executioner in UK during the latter part of the 19th Century. He noted and described many hangings he performed, (and they were not all the quick, painless affairs one might imagine.) How any human being could snuff out the life of another in cold blood, as he did, is beyond my comprehension, no matter what their crime. Even if a method could be devised which was entirely painless, it's sinister and wrong IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 03:35 PM

>>>>>>"Sadly...Denise Bulger will NEVER be able to turn her life around,"
I doubt if any of the families involved will ever be able to turn their lives around - maybe we should see off the Taylor and Venables families while we're at it - wouldn't have to think about them then?..."<<<<


They at least still have their sons. And of course, perhaps, had they loved them as Denise loved Jamie, ALL would still have their sons.

Again, my sympathy is with Denise, she is the mother without her son. Nothing will bring him back, nothing will take away the horror.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 03:27 PM

"There are more ways of execution than hanging."
There are indeed Mike - but thankfully not in the UK or Ireland any more (except if you happen to set fire to a naval dockyard - or has that gone too??)
The barbarism that was capital punishment is now only a fond memory of the would-be Madame LeFarges (like yourself, I take it) who yearn for the days..... ah well!!
I take it you have no great objection to killing children - along with our two 'abrading members'?
"Please, can we refrain from the kind of thoughts at the end of your post."
OK to see them off if you don't mention it in polite company in order not to scare the horses or upset the staff, eh Lizzie?
Did you know that when Ruth Ellis was hanged she had to wear canvas drawers because the insides of the woman who was hanged before her fell out when she was dropped - the realities of the 'good old days'!
"Sadly...Denise Bulger will NEVER be able to turn her life around,"
I doubt if any of the families involved will ever be able to turn their lives around - maybe we should see off the Taylor and Venables families while we're at it - wouldn't have to think about them then?
"I'm the last person on the planet Michael would want hear a comment from".
Apparently not the case Rich.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 02:35 PM

Lizzie, you are correct in pulling the focus of this case towards this lady Denise Bulger. My heart goes out to her. I doubt any of the smiling "thug hugger" nutjobs knocked her door to convert her to the liberal forgiveness of cloud cuckoo land. I make no excuses for my desire to see these two bastards roasted in hell. I hate the law allowing them freedom, freedom that cost close to £3 million.

I'm the last person on the planet Michael would want hear a comment from, but that attack by "Citizen" McCormack was uncalled for and frankly reeked of jealously and class hatred. His background has nothing to do with his freedom to express an opinion.

Your flat cap and sandwiches are on the hall table Fred, close the door on your way out.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 01:50 PM

BTW, Jim ~~ you do realise that "would you do it yourself?", while emotionally satisfying, has no real argumentative merit? I bet I could think of a whole lot of procedures necessary for the maintenance of society which you would be reluctant to carry out yourself and can only be grateful that some people will.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 01:43 PM

Jim, this thread is getting horrible. Please, can we refrain from the kind of thoughts at the end of your post. Isn't it enough that Denise Bulger has to live with horrific thoughts each and every single day of her life??????????


To be honest, I'm sick of hearing about these two men, as they now are.
Jon Venables is serving 2 years for downloading and distributing child pornography. The court was not allowed to take in his previous crimes when sentencing him for that...which, quite honestly, is absolute shite.

If I'd have been either of these boys, or Mary Bell, and had been allowed to grow up, then realise the enormity of the atrocious act I'd committed, regardless of what had happened to me, I'd have probably killed myself, drunk myself to death or taken an overdose...leaving a letter of the utmost sincere apology for the parents of the children I'd tortured, mutilated and then murdered.

In Mary Bell's case, I'd have asked for an abortion, because I'd have felt it not my right to have a child at all, let alone go on to live a happy family life, whilst the parents of those I'd killed lived each and every day of their lives in the utmost agony imaginable.

As far as Jon Venables goes, NO WAY would I have ever looked at, touched, viewed, or even listened to stories, of child pornography. His contempt for his crime, for children in particular, is pretty clear for all to see.

Responsibility is a strange word these days.

Whilst I can understand how damaged a child can become, and I know there are thousands of damaged kids out there, kicking up a stink, raising merry hell, very few of them would go on to do what these two did.

Personally, I think they should have stayed in jail for at least 20 years, then lived a very monitored life-style for many years after that.

I understand the Law is an Ass, so that ain't going to happen. And for his previous heinous crime not to have been taken into account beggars belief, but again, that is the madness of the legal system.

Our thoughts, our feelings of sympathy, should lie with Denise Bulger, her husband, and the parents of the children Mary Bell murdered too. They will have no grandchildren from those little souls. Their murders deprived them of more than their children, but of a future line of children going down through possibly, centuries.

Whilst those parents suffer each and every day in atrocious agony, and will do so for the rest of their days, the perpertrators of these horrific crimes have had a fortune spent on them, receive constant protection/anonymity and quite frankly, as in the case of Jon Venables, stick two fingers up to society.   He's promised to turn his life around when he gets out..yeah right...

Sadly...Denise Bulger will NEVER be able to turn her life around, no matter what happens to her, for their will always be a gaping hole inside her, always her arms will long to hold her Jamie, to see his smile again, to see him grown up with his own children on his knee...

I have great sympathy for damaged children, but I have no sympathy if there is no sense of sincere apology or heart-felt regrets of the deepest kind imaginable....and as far as I can see, there has been none from any of these now adult people.

I agree that Mary Bell's child and grandchild should be allowed to remain anonymous, because none of her life is their fault, but as to the rest of these folks, no..my sympathy is with the mothers and fathers, the families involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 01:39 PM

There are more ways of execution than hanging. There are humane ways of 'putting down' or 'destroying' dogs which attack children ~~ you read of such every day in the News In Brief columns.

These are merely general observations not directly related to this thread, but suggested by Jim's last post. As I have remarked on various threads many times before, I am profoundly ambivalent on the subject of capital punishment; can see, and appreciate, the arguments on both sides; believe that there should be more to the concept of punishment in general than mere deterrence, though that is clearly an important factor; and should certainly be opposed to its use in the case of any child... But in the present instance...

...as to what should have been done to Thompson & Venables: search me ~~ except they should never have been released when they were, and if we are involved in treaty obligations with the EU or whoever which necessitated such a procedure in our laws, then such treaties should be withdrawn from forthwith. The skies wouldn't fall.

~Michael~

Howdy McCormick, you silly little specimen: having a good throw-up, are we?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 12:46 PM

"You could at least quote the whole sentence,"
Wasn't referring to you specifically Smokey - it seems a widespread opinion that they should never have been let out, nor Mary Bell for that matter.
Releasing a criminal who has been sentenced for a violent crime is always a risk, whether they had served their sentence in full or been released on appeal.
In this case they were released on licence on reaching 18, as the law demands.
Incarcerating them indefinitely is not only contrary to British law, but also would leave any government open to charges of contravening the statute of human rights.
As they were 10 year old children at the time of the crime it would also be inhuman in my opinion.
Still no reference to them being children I see.
I wonder if Silas could explain how an execution of a child should take place - would he be preaperd to carry it out himself or would he expect somebody else to do it on his behalf?
As a child of that age would be unlikely to break its neck when reaching the end of a drop, should it be left to strangle to death or would somebody have to pull the legs until it died.
Or maybe a weight could be added to its feet, with the risk of tearing the child's head off!!
Something to think about, doncha think??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 11:28 AM

"and failing dismally to persuade anybody that all Pakistanis are cultural degenerates."

Not surprising, as I never suggested such a ludicrous thing!

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 11:25 AM

You could at least quote the whole sentence, Jim. My point was that it is always a gamble to let out the perpetrators of such crimes, and it puts the public at potential risk. If it wasn't irresponsible to let him out, how come he's back inside again?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 11:22 AM

"They were caught, sentenced and punished according to the law"

"the Brimingham Six, or the Guildford Four, or the Maguires, or all the others who served long stretches for capital crimes they did not commit"

So what exactly is your view of British law then Jim ?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 10:59 AM

"I think it was grossly irresponsible to let them out at all"
Nobody has yet had the courage to acknowledge the fact that these are two ten year old children we are talking about.
They were caught, sentenced and punished according to the law as it still stands at the present time.
The law says that children cannot be held fully responsible and punishable for their actions - that, to me is simple logic; whatever these children did, they did so as children and must be treated as such.
So far we have had execution, incarceration for life, lifelong persecution, burning in hell, genetically evil (straight out of gothic horror fiction)... 'any more for the Skylark?'
I'm assuming that those offering such 'humane' analyses believe that there should be no demarcation line and would be happy to see all ten-year-olds - including members of their own family, treated as adults in criminal cases?
The parallels between the Bulger and the Bell cases are remarkable.
At the age of 11 Mary Bell, along with a 13 year old girl companion, strangled two children and mutilated their bodies, sexually and physically.
It emerged during her trial that Bell had been repeatedly handed over to her prostitute mother's clients for sex from the age of four onwards, and on two occasions her mother had attempted to kill her; the court-appointed psychiatrist described her as a psychopath.
She was found guilty of manslaughter, sentenced and imprisoned for the full term of her sentence - in the same facility as Venables was later held - her companion was acquitted.
On release, Bell was hounded by the press, as was the daughter she was later to have.
She finally won the legal right to privacy, was given a new identity and, despite her childhood traumas, crimes, incarceration and later long-term treatment by the gutter press, went on to lead a normal life; three years ago she became a grandmother - she has been fully rehabilitated.
Would anybody else like to offer an alternative to rehabilitation other than the hanging, persecution and burning in hell we've had so far?

"……just days after withdrawing from another debate,"
Keith – it is none of your business what I do on this forum; do not distort my opinions and the outcome of other threads, they have nothing whatever to do with what is being discussed here.
May I remind you again that the last thread ended up with your being virtually isolated and unsupported and failing dismally to persuade anybody that all Pakistanis are cultural degenerates.
This is not our thread and I have no intention of making it so by dominating it with our vacuous arguments, as we have managed to do in the past.
In respect to the other contributors here, do not make this yet another long pointless dialogue between us as has happened in the past - state your case to everybody here and stop trying to pick a fight with me.
Any attempt on your part to make this a personal argument between us and nause it up for other contributors will be reported to a forum adjudicator – let's stop this now.
Over and out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 11:38 PM

There was a guy named Calvert who some people ID'd as Venables even though he denied it. Yet he received death threats and there are still sluggards who think he is Venables. Since the press cannot reveal Venables' new ID, to connect him with Calvert would be a violation of that order ergo Calvert cannot be Venables.

They're ready to let an innocent man be killed than let Venables face his just punishment. His life is so much more important than Calvert's. They got off scot-free. After what they did, they walked away away laughing. I have no sympathy for then whatsoever. They should be killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM

It is extraordinary Jim, that just days after withdrawing from another debate, you are involving yourself in this one.
Here you are defending the perpetrators and showing no compassion for the child victim and family.
Previously the victims were certainly hundreds and probably thousands of sexually exploited and gang raped children.
Not only did you show no compassion, but you ridiculed and mocked me for expressing mine.
Your only concern was to deny or conceal the common factor linking the perpetrators.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:20 PM

No, I was referring to her and the Scandinavian case.
Sorry it was not clear enough for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:14 PM

Suggest you might just have the wrong Mary Bell Keithie - look again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:22 PM

Mary Bell, the Scandinavian case mentioned above, and all previous cases I have ever heard of pale into insignificance compared to the brutality and perversity shown by these two.
That is why I felt it important to fill in some of the details.
Ritchie has completed the picture.
I have no answers either, but false comparisons and other excuses to parade your ultra lib. prejudices are no help at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:11 PM

Thanks Jim, I would like to consider you as a friend, but you don't seem to agree with me.

Enjoy Domhnach Cásca there and don't be eating too many cúbóg

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 03:17 PM

PS Richie;
I'm very pleased for both you and Keith that you've managed to find a friend at last - I hope you'll be very happy - you seem very well-matched
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 03:14 PM

"before you ask, I AM serious"
Thank you for affixing this to your posting Silas; I do have a problem with the idea that any sane, humane adult can seriously suggest that the state could try and institutionally execute two ten-year-olds, no matter how heinous their crime - barbarity at its most barbarous, even worse than what they did - they at least had the excuse of being ten-year-old children.
The next timer you're in the company of a ten-year-old I suggest you take a look at him/her and repeat whet you have just written - if I belived in a god, I would ask him to forgive you!
As for the return to capital punishment; perhaps you'd like to write the letters of apology to the fmilies of the Brimingham Six, or the Guildford Four, or the Maguires, or all the others who served long stretches for capital crimes they did not commit - they'd all be dead as Norwegian Blues, left to you.
Sorry - all part of our barbaric past along with Drawing and quartering and bear-baiting.
"These 'evil' children will grow up to be 'evil' adults"
I suggest you look up the 10 year old murderess Mary Bell - Wiki does a pretty good job on her.
Richie - Little Richie;
My sincere thanks for brightening up what has been a rather uneventful day.
You have made a tired man very happy - or the other way round.
"He just breezes in Keith hoping to rub one member against another"
I will never again think of you without getting a warm glow in my... er, member - thank you from the bottom of my.... well... member.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM

I think it was grossly irresponsible to let them out at all, although admittedly that is the only sure way to find out if such offenders have been 'rehabilitated'. In this case, the 'experts' (who will never be held accountable) were obviously wrong. They might as well draw names out of a hat - it would be cheaper and every bit as successful. My sympathies are entirely with the victim's family.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 02:26 PM

These two men are now adults and should have their identity revealed.

The bottom line is that there are so many things wrong with the way two murderers have been treated in comparison to the way a victims family was treated.


Just for a moment think about, they murdered a two year old child. Remember that they poured Humbrol modelling paint into his left eye. The pathologist's report read out in court stated that Bulger's foreskin had been forcibly retracted and that batteries had been inserted into his anus while he was being tortured. The judge, Mr. Justice Morland, told Thompson and Venables that they had committed a crime of "unparalleled evil and barbarity... In my judgment, your conduct was both cunning and very wicked." A psychiatrist said unequivocally they knew the difference between right and wrong

So you want to know if the system cured these sick fucks ? Well on the 23rd of July 2010, Venables pleaded guilty to charges of downloading and distributing child pornography, and was given a sentence of two years' imprisonment. He had posed in online chat rooms as 35-year-old Dawn "Dawnie" Smith, a married woman from Liverpool who boasted about abusing her eight-year-old daughter, in the hope of obtaining further child pornography.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 02:21 PM

"Ah ~ diddums ~ children. Sweet ickle kiddy-winkies. Oh dere-dere den..."

So MtheGM knows the differency wifferency between righty wighty and wrongy wongy. Of course he does. He was born into a nice middle class home with a great big silver spoon in his mouth, and probably a nanny to take him walkies round the park. If he'd played with those rough lads in those no hope tenements - you know the ones. No class, no style, no inside toilets, no bathrooms, and very likely a shared standpipe in the middle of the court as the only source of water - mumsie wumsie would have sent him straight to bed without any suppery wuppery.

No, MtheGM wasn't born on a sink estate populated by drug addicts and ne'er do wells. Nor was he born of parents who were too thick and hopeless to know how to bring him up and, if memory recalls, spent all their time watching violent porn.

I'm not sure which I find the most detestable, M the GM's opinions, or the sickening, patronising tissue of nonsense he chooses to wrap them up in. But then I always found the English middle class an odd lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 12:51 PM

I'm not so sure that there's no such thing as an 'evil gene'. It could be rare and recessive, but an 'evil personality' can exist from birth IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 12:13 PM

Charming.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 12:08 PM

Personally, I'm with Richie Black. Fry the fuckers. As if any of you will really lose a wink of sleep over it. Sanctimonious bastards--all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM

Both convict have received extensive therapy and rehabilitation during their incarceration.

Anybody here with a clear and factual insight into the success of the treatment?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 11:52 AM

He just breezes in Keith hoping to rub one member against another, he is best ignored. I would of thought a patriot of his calibre would have been giving the address at Arbour Hill today.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 11:18 AM

I think it best to know exactly what you are pontificating about.
Jim does not like anything revealed if it does not fit his preconceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 10:55 AM

These 'evil' children will grow up to be 'evil' adults. Permanent incarceration or capital punishment are the only two options.

Ye4s, before you ask, I AM serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 09:09 AM

As far as I'm concerned, if our society produces 'evil monsters' then we're all guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 09:05 AM

Hard to notice that other than Richie Blackshirt's profound "evil bastards" and "hound 'em out of town" solutions, nobody has offered an argument, articulate or otherwise, as to why they did it and what should happen to them.
Nor has anybody from the "hang 'em and flog 'em" brigade responded to the fact that they were children and the law in Britain says they should be treated as such.
Change the law - just for this case, or for crimes committed by all those presently regarded as 'children'???
Come on people - don't be shy!
They were children, and unless someone has recently discovered an 'evil' gene, are creations of our adult society.
Some of this reminds me of the screaming rabble gathering around the prison van coming out of the court, whether a verdict has been arrived at or not.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 08:55 AM

No problem Silas, enjoy the Easter break.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 08:17 AM

Don't get me wrong Richie, I agree with your first post, that is all. I detest the values you stand for and I find you an obnoxious and provocative poster.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 07:30 AM

Silas, like myself you were probably raised by a generation that taught us right from wrong. I really can't tolerate this age of finding excuses for rotten badness. A member of my family worked in a psychiatric hospital as a nurse. Some time back, a 17 year old thug beat an 84 year old woman to a inch of her life in her own home and stole cherished items and money. As she recovered on a surgical ward with a stainless steel frame bolted to her lower jaw being fed by a tube, the thug who did it was admitted to the psychiatric unit for assessment after he threatened to kill himself. He admitted with laughter to other patients it was his solicitor that advised him to go to his GP as it would help his case. His hospital admission and tender young years were used in court to his advantage.

Society needs to focus on the victims and not finding excuses for bad evil bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 06:37 AM

Lizzie;
With respect, and no reflection whatever on Jamie Bulger's parents - this is about a horrendous act carried out by two CHILDREN against another child, and how it should be dealt with - that is the issue here.
Unfair as it may seem to some, the judicial system in Britain is not geared to providing retribution for those affected by crimes, nor should it be - an eye-for-an-eye belongs in the dustbin that is The Old Testament.
An appaling act has been carried out by two chidren; I have no idea why they did what they did any more than you do, nor do I know what should happen to them - do you?
I do know that the 'rope-over-the nearest branch' solution is not one I'd want to contemplate (not put forward yet, but just lurking below the surface).
These threads always drag the usual stereotypes and caricatures out of the woodwork, from "it would never have happened in my day" Colonel Chinstraps, to the Matthew Hopkins school of law and justice - which one would you choose - if either?
And Keith's cut-'n-paste public displaying of the corpse in all his gory detail is yet another of his classics!
I don't know the whys and wherefores of this - do you think you do well enough to suggest a solution?
As little respect as I have for The Establishment I'm happy (and extremely grateful) to leave this one to the experts - it's what keeps that thin veneer between civilisation and barbarism in place, and long may it be there.
Richie Black is a knuckles-along-the-ground fascist with knuckles-along-the-ground solutions to the world's problems, and makes no effort to disguise the fact.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 06:35 AM

Well, I never thought I would ever say this, but I agree with Richies first post on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 06:34 AM

Lizzie. Sadly there is a big demand for violent abusive films and video games. I can never understand why anyone would want to sit down and view such tripe. What is also disturbing, is the fact some parents watch their children sitting wide eyed and glued to a gaming controller cutting heads of the approaching enemy with machetes and shouting "yeah, got you". In a lot of cases, it keeps them occupied and not under their parents feet.

Have you noticed, no one is just evil these days, when someone murders a woman or a child, the bleeding heart brigade in our society conjurer up reasons such as "his drunken mother had sex with numerous men if front of him," or "his father sexually abused him" to give some reasonable understandable cause to the actions of some evil bastard as he smirks over a courtroom at the family of his victims.

Sadly cases of sadistic murder or torture of children are rising. I am sorry if I lack sympathy or compassion, but in my opinion, any man that attacks, rapes or beats a woman or child forfeits his place in society. PERMINENTLY.

As juveniles these two tormented, tortured old age pensioners in their homes. It went unpunished due to their age, they graduated to taking an innocent child and put him through an horrific ordeal then trail his blood soaked body to a railway track to watch it cut in half, that was calculated murder, they weren't cleansing their minds of past deeds they saw in the home, they wanted to murder a baby and they did it, most likely in the knowledge some goon of a social worker would be too willing to fight their corner if they were ever caught.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 06:29 AM

The thread is about a child being murdered...

It is not, Richie. That is a very important part obviously but it is about a documentary on TV the other night that I found difficult to watch as it opened up all sorts of questions that we had forgotten about.

I was sort of hoping it would help answer those questions I had but I realise that hope was folorn. The thread has already been spoiled by fools.

I will leave you too it.

MP.