BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:05 PM

Point taken, Kevin, problem being that the "stated purpose" of the envasion is completely bogus.

Just noticedd the "e" for "i" typo - but think I'll let it stand.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:59 PM

Just got round to checking your link above, Snort'n, out of idle curiousity. Did you forget to take your haloperidol again? What the hell am I supposed to have to do with some dickheads desecrating a cemetery in France?

That and your rambling, incoherent temper-tantrum about all those mean and nasty "'peace' folks" that are out to get you- didn't realize you saw yourself as such a victim. Your attempt to damn me by association with your list of nasties is really amusing- inept and bogus though it may be. You really are completely, utterly clueless. Also, do try for some consistency: either we're a bunch of cowardly wusses, or we go around assaulting soldiers; you can't have it both ways.

Do get back on your meds- for all our sakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:14 PM

I thought of that "watching it on TV" point, too, but didn't want to do a three-in-a-row posting.

I don't disagree with anything you've said above or just now. They make a big deal about not displaying U.S. flags as an indication to the civilians that they are not a force of invaders/conquerors. Talk about your mixed messages.

I only added a simple, "but nobody's shooting at me" observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM

So if you are watching a television screen and a picture of a soldier with "Kill 'em all" on his helmet comes up, you are standing too close to him?

The point I'm making is, a slogan like that gives a clear message - "The army this man belongs to is here to kill civilians" is what it is saying, and that is not a good message to give people you want to win over to your side. It's also not a true message, I'm sure, so far as the vast majority of soldiers are concerned. Very likely it isn't even true of the individual soldier concerned - though I think it might be reckless to risk putting him in a situation where he might act out his fantasies.

And I think that the suggestion that colluding with that kind of thing on the grounds of "the need for inspiration for the troops" is way off line. It's encouraging the kind of attitudes that threaten to undermine the whole stated purpose of this invasion. It's a way of thinking that is likely to mean more dead civilians, and more dead soldiers among the invasion force.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 03:38 PM

Wolfgang:

Very well said. Some kinds of certainty are luxuries paid for by the suspension of thought, eh?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 03:25 PM

A message back to the Front

Dear Corporal Josh,

I appreciate you generosity for giving a writing credit to the dead soldiers. But for the sake of clarity, would you please tell me which
words are your and which are theirs. I see you are in Kuwait. When you do experience combat, when you kill an enemy or are wounded, will you please tell us how you feel then? It may well change your point of view. A lot of veterans from the last big war the USA fought were disappointed in the government and the generals. But it was people like you who paid the price.

I'd really like to thank you, you really feel you are protecting us, that thought is really kind. I am not so sure that what you are doing will bring us more security or more terror.

The people who have sent you over there have made your job a lot more difficult. They've not been at all clear about the reasons. In their arrogance they have sent you there less prepared than they could have been they have planned based upon popular uprising doing a lot of the work. They let Iraqis rebels die withing sight of their guns the last time yet are are so convinced of their righteousness that they expected the survivors and witnesses to get up and fight again. Through insults and bullying, they have robbed you of bases and resourses which could have made your mission safer and less bloody. Even one Muslim country fighting by your side could save a lot of lives on both sides.

In your poem you say we are protected by the best. You are young and proud and you need to believe that for your confidence. Keep this in mind though, there are some young men on the other side who feel exactly the same way. There were a lot of young men in Viet Nam who thought that their training and technology would keep them safe. There are fifty thousand names on a wall in Washington of those who also were the best.

We know you want to save the world, so do we. We know you are doing the right thing. Your job is important and you are doing it to the best of your abilities, without a hidden agenda and without greed We know that you Marines are very very good at what you do. I wish we could have the same confidence in our leaders.

I'm sure that you didn't mean to call all war protestors cowards. You will be pleased to know that when I feel that my country or my freedom needs protection from without. I'll wear the boots and carry a gun. Right now I believe that this country needs protection from it own leaders. So I'm speaking out.

Rob Dale, and all of the soldiers, women and children who died because of the blunders of leaders and generals.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:06 PM

Oh, and on the further issue of the civilians reading such (English language) comments, what comes to mind is a variation on those "If you can read this, then . . . " bumper stickers.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:59 PM

On one of the national news broadcasts I saw a segment on (what they portrayed as) the widespread use of 9/11 sloganeering on weapons and uniforms. An officer was quoted on the need for inspiration for the troops: They had to feel an inspiration that was tangible/manageable.

I thought this rather depressing, but then again I do believe that inspiration is far important than intellectualizing, given their circumstances.

Any of us who feel self-righteous or smug (difficult to perceive in oneself, but it's sometimes possible with deep reflection) over their "feelings" or opinions or positions while sitting at home isn't thinking hard enough.

Dan

MAKE FUCK NOT KILL

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:33 PM

Troll-all right, you win, though I don't remember what the original debate was about. If I remember correctly, Mongolia was first incorporated into the Chinese nation when the Mongols conquered China, killing millions of Chinese peasants. Not justifying the Chinese by any means, but pointing out that Chinese history is a little murkier than American, by virtue of being much longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:19 PM

So much for your prior promise of 'no response', eh, Snort'n? Good to know what your word is worth, or did you just run out of white-out? Gotcha! Pitiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:17 PM

Amos,

I've read many books and articles by Orwell and I never fail to be fascinated both by language and thought. This man changed quite a bit through the experience of WWII. He is, admirably and with good arguments, a socialist in, for instance, 'Road to Wigan pier' before the war. During the war he started to realise that compared to the Barbarian alternative there was a lot worth to defend in that far from perfect prewar capitalist-democratic Britain. I've got a lot both of prewar and postwar Orwell in me and am torn between the two positions.

Sometimes I envy those who never have a doubt who is right and who's wrong, mostly I don't. I sometimes wish the discussions in Mudcat had more contributions from people with more open doubts. But that could be a theme for another thread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:15 PM

A lot of students around the country protested the war today. The

National Youth and Student Peace Coalition sponsored an anti-war

organization called 'Books Not Bombs.' President Bush said, 'Why do

you want to drop books on them?'"

Jay Leno

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:46 PM

WOlfgang --

Thanks so much for the Orwell article. Admirable and analytical. IT is a little unnerving to measure the current situation against his yardsticks, I must say. But there is a difference in tempo between the world he was measuring and the one we ar ein now. It is difficult in the spate of high-speed, rapidly changhing facts, for example, to find out what the relative truth of the propositions being used in mass-think are -- such as "the people of Iraq will celebrartre liberation once they know Saddam is out of the picture". One of those things I would like to find true, but cannot in all honesty assert to be so.

I also think in times as volatile as these that there is a gray area between patriotism and nationalism; or at least I feel there is one, because of the constantly shifting probabilities of various 'facts' and assertions being bandied about. Even though we have thousands of times more on-site pictures and videos of the current developments than 20th Century intellectuals enjoyed concerning the ebb and flow of the second WW, we seem no better than they were at applying any rigor to our thinking about them.

A

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:26 PM

Forum Lurker, this isn't the one I was looking for but it'll do.
www.caccp.org/im/ - 26k - Apr 1, 2003

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:22 PM

Lurker, go to Siberia as I have and talk to what is left of the native peoples. They will tell you, as they told me, how Siberia was conquered by force of arms. It started under the Czars and continued right up through the Soviets with native peoples being displaced, killed, or forced to work under the control of the state.
As for China, look at Tibet. It's only the most recent of a long list of armed conquests by the Han - the principal ethnic group in China. I used to have a web site bookmarked about the current situation in Inner Mongolia. I'll have to look it up again and I'll PM it to you if you like. Western China is not populated by Chinese at all but by Uighirs, a Turkic people. Now they are being displaced as the central government sends thousands of Han there as "colonists". There is an armed rebellion ongoing there. It's pretty low-key so far, but it exists. In 1945 this was the area in which the short-lived country of Turkestan was born. It died soon after under the weight of Maos Peoples Army.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:59 AM

Things like this are what I am referring to. Very productive for someone -

"I've just got a low tolerance for bombast." For someone so full of it - I can understand that. Mr. "Last word" you are welcome to my walker to assist you in packing all of it around! LOL

Troll - Thanks Brother - the walker thing had me laughing too. What a hoot!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:49 AM

Troll, its not that I can't or don't understand. I've just got a low tolerance for bombast.

For example: I am not making threats or beating my chest or any of that macho crap - you (and certainly Norton) sure could have fooled me. Maybe you both could work on your phrasing and delivery?

As for your surmise about what I can understand, what I would want to do, what background I have & the rest of it, as you state: "its not my problem" and, past a certain point, I really don't give a shit. Knock yourself out, if it amuses you.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:36 AM

Troll-I believe that the U.S., including Alaska, is larger than Canada, but I can't check right now; recall, however, that many of the early Canadians actually co-existed peacefully with the natives, which was much less frequently the case in the U.S. Siberia was not taken by force, nor was much of China, Tibet excluded; most of the People's Republic of China has been controlled by Chinese emperors for thousands of years, and it's hard to say whether conquest or assimilation was the original method of incorporation.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:24 AM

"There is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of Western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism.
Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds
that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the US. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn
violence as such, but only violence used in defense of Western countries." - George Orwell (in 1945), quoted in a letter to The Spectator (GUEST posting this citation for about the sixth time in Mudcat history)

Some may want to read the whole article. I recommend it.

Georges Orwell's Notes on Nationalism

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:14 AM

Greg, I stand by my statement. And I'm still breathing
As for Norton1, yeah, I imagine he can take care of himself without any help from me, but why should he have all the fun. After all, it's the Navy that gets the Marines where they need to go and we generally hang around after we drop them off. Just in case they need us.
Now I'm a 62 year-old with bad knees and ankles and I've had my butt kicked more than once, but I've never backed down from a fight of any kind and I think the same applies to Steve Norton.
I don't expect you can understand this kind of cameradery, I don't think you have the background knowledge that is required and I'm very sure you wouldn't want to do that which is necessary to obtain that knowledge.
Please understand that I am not making threats or beating my chest or any of that macho crap. I'm just stating a few simple truths.
If you can't understand or accept them, that's not my problem.

troll

BTW< Lepus, your line about Norton hitting you with his walker was a stitch. Only he doesn't get around with a walker. I believe he rides a Harley Davidson. There is a difference.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:53 AM

Typical Kevin,

"William Branigin's account of what happened sounds a lot more convincing than the army account. Or any subsequent spinning operation."

How much effort have you gone to, to investigate any of the above. The journalists happens to coincide with your prejudices so that automatically becomes the most believeable - maybe to you - but don't parade his version as being factual until such time as that has been proved to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:37 AM

In a general response I would say that "you" represents the supposed "peace" folks who antagonize others, start fights and then say they were not wanting that, stray from topic to keep the fight going, are assholes and not truly looking for anything but a confrontation, infer that which is not stated or implied to return to jingoistic taunting behavior, and have a rabid need to "win" with the last word at all costs. "You" also are the folks that destroy proerty in the name of civil disobedience, physically attack those who countermarch, physically assault men and women in uniform as a "statement" of peace, make anonymous threats over the phone to people who have children fighting in Iraq, are bigots, racist, gay bashing, despising of anything that does not exactly meet your standard of what should be.

The problem being that your standard does not hold a steady line. Kind of like trying to direct the wind with your hand. "You" are about confrontation and imbecilic attitude simply for the sake of the argument and confrontation. Over here refers to Mudcat in a tiny way and the peace movement in splinter sectors. "You" are the ones who give the rest a bad name - just my opinion -

That's a few -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:29 AM

"Your posting about one American troop with a questionable marking on his helmet is to be generalized to all of the troops over there?"

Did I say that? The fact that he was wearing something like that openly is an indication, however, that he wasn't worried about trouble from his superiors. And they should worry about that kind of stuff and the message it sends to the world, and to people who might be undecided one way or another about whether this is a liberating army or a war of imperialist aggression.

William Branigin's account of what happened sounds a lot more convincing than the army account. Or any subsequent spinning operation.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:19 AM

One wonders which "you" Lepus and I am supposed to represent and over where ????

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:59 AM

McGrath - Your posting about one American troop with a questionable marking on his helmet is to be generalized to all of the troops over there? By that rationale one could assume that Lepus and Greg F represent all of you over here. How true is that?

And the incident with the van was explained quite well - warning shots were fired, a shot was fired into the engine compartment, PRIOR to any shots being fired into the interior of the van. A resident Muslim Cleric in the area was on TV stating that the Death Squads had ordered the women to do this or face having all of their families killed. Much the same as is being found with interviews of Iraqi troops that have surrendered.

Bobert - In light of your last posting I rest my case on who and what you are and why I prefer not to have you involved with my family. Your inference is in line with my assertion. Supporting one who supports Saddam and his death squads is really quite out of line with your normal posturing - that's too bad -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:51 AM

Bobert!!! Shame on you:

"I'm gonna have to hang with my position that a lot of folks have been caught up in some funky sh*t, with no way out. Black kids trying to escape poverty and the ghetto."

Now you know that is no way to talk about Colin Powell, or Kofi Annan, for that matter.

But this bit was hilarious - Bobert - you totally surpassed yourself:

"Now, as for Norton. Hey, he is from another group that you will never understand. But that's okay (A). Just know that that bridge has to be built and won't be built in our life time (B). It is too important to those who rule, control, manipulate and control the subject/working class to ever allow that divide to be bridged for it is a ceneter piece in their scheme to maintain their position (C). Though you may be a mere 28, once you understand this lesson, you will be infinately wiser.(D)

It ain't that "new and improved"... Divide and conquer....(A)

Meanwhile, the working class fight their wars, pay for their wars and end up dieing in poverty.(C)"

Taken from the above all sentences suffixed:

(A) - Standard Patronizing Bullshit.
(B) - Really Partonizing Bullshit.
(C) - Astronomically Cliched Patronizing Bullshit.
(D) - Mega-Patronizing Bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:26 AM

Here is a link to the report of the checkpoint killing by William Branigin of the Washington post."You just killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot".

And this is the crucial bit for me: "To try to prevent a recurrence, Capt Johnson ordered that signs be posted in Arabic to warn people to stop."

Confirming that such signs had not been placed previously. What kind of preparation has this army made for the very predictable situation they find themselves in? I think it is nonsense to suggest that putting them out at the time of setting up a road block would have meant putting soldiers at unreasonable risk of attack.

Even from a military point of view, in a situation like this, avoiding deaths like this has to be an absolute highest priority.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 08:45 AM

McG of H your not seriously suggesting that a full VCP should be set up in a war zone? That would be totally naive, Iraq is not N.Ireland,the Iraqi troops could target the area, neatly marked out with signs and traffic cones.

The troops need to be able to set up and go just as fast,load of nonsense asking for signs to be laid out, leaving troops vulnerable to attack.

I do not think that the VCP was handled correctly, and I'm saying this based on the reporters account. But I do have a question, why did the driver try to speed through? Considering the theory that the driver may have thought it was an Iraqi vcp, why should the driver be worried? if they thought it was a US vcp why should the driver be worried?

The reports show that the vcp was on a long road, to say it was anything near an ambush shows a little ignorance. You do not ambush people while hiding in the middle of the road with two big tanks right out in the open, why? because those you wish to ambush would see you and run off.

Is it true that the Captain, who said that the platoon just killed people because they did not fire a warning shot quick enough, was sent home. I was told the Capt. was on T.V. saying that his comments did not refer to the vcp incident.

I do agree with you that the slogans and images would not be conducive to winning over people, nor does the reports that show some US troop whooping it up on a tank after taking part in some action.

Is subtlety lost on some people, or that their actions do have consequences, who would support people who have such slogans as "This is for NYPD", which is to suggest this is in retaliation for Sept 11. This would indicate to Iraqi people that they were responsible for the Sept attack, and under these conditions,I understand why they have not greeted the US troops with open arms.

Should such associations to the NYPD or any reference to the Sept 11 attack be made in this war? I believe not and in doing so really cheapens the aims of the war to simple revenge.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:31 AM

You did not post your "truth" to inform, but to harm. You are still the sumg, sanctimonious, prig that you have always been

In light of your history of postings, Troll, I'm amazed you can say this without choking.

And what precisely are Norton's ranting postings and personal attacks designed to do? I'm sure he appreciates you running to his defense. I rather assumed the rugged, two-fisted, cock-on-a-dunghill, foul-mouthed, thump-anyone-who-disagrees-with-me leatherneck he makes himself out to be would be able to take care of himself. Is this not the case?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:54 AM

Yes Greg, I came up with it all by myself.
You did not post your "truth" to inform, but to harm. You are still the sumg, sanctimonious,
prig that you have always been; proof that some things don't improve with age.
Lurker, I do believe that Canada is larger that the US and I don't recall it being uninhabited when the ancestors of the present population got there. As for Russia, you could drop the US into Siberia and it would vanish; and it is still part of Russia. I'm not sure how China fares in size comparison, but most of what it now claims, it claims by right of conquest.
And I don't even want to talk about Australia.
Greg, I always have a nice day. It's all part of my revenge.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:25 PM

Lepus Rex:

Sorry for addin' some 20 or so years to ya', my friend. I haven't seen your pic but maybe I should. Might of fact, I haven't seen too many folks pics. Makes it more interesting in a way.

But, inspite of enjoyin' yer posts, I'm gonna have to hang with my position that a lot of folks have been caught up in some funky sh*t, with no way out. Black kids trying to escape poverty and the ghetto. Look at the disporportionate number of minorities and I think you'll see a pettern here.

Now, as for Norton. Hey, he is from another group that you will never understand. But that's okay. Just know that that bridge has to be built and won't be built in our life time. It is too important to those who rule, control, manipulate and control the subject/working class to ever allow that divide to be bridged for it is a ceneter piece in their scheme to maintain their position. Though you may be a mere 28, once you understand this lesson, you will be infinately wiser.

It ain't that "new and improved"... Divide and conquer....

Meanwhile, the working class fight their wars, pay for their wars and end up dieing in poverty.

Welcome to Boss Hog's America!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:57 PM

Troll-

My apologies- didn't mean to ignore you.

I think that it is utterly marvelous that you have never in your life done anything to harm another person. That must really free your conscience to be so pure of spirit.

Do you actually come up with this hyperbolic shit yourself, or does someone write it for you? & you accuse me of being smug?

I would observe that Norton's pride must be a frail and fragile thing of little substance indeed if it can be so easily undermined, as you maintain, by my posting of a few facts.

"Have a Nice Day"-

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:55 PM

Lepus, re-read it, please. I meant that you were still barely in your 20's, i.e. almost 30.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:06 PM

Ah Lepusious - you can't read or comprehend the English language. Run your mouth all you want - you were never threatened - implied or otherwise - you chose to read it that way. That's your paranoia not mine.

You must be feeling good - just finish up your prank call to the 22 year old Army troops parents telling them he was dead? Your opinion means little and I'm not real concerned about a fat skin head in wherever it is you hang out. Must feel good going to the bar and telling all your buds about how you really straighten them out on the internet.

Well Rexious - see you around kid - self admitted big mouth and supporter of the Iraqi Forces of dear old Saddam.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 07:08 PM

That checkpoint - a reporter on the BBC was saying today that there weren't any signs out telling traffic that there was a checkpomt coming up, and no proper blocking of the road. It must have felt more like an ambush than a checkpoint. Even if you actually believe the claims about warning shots.

Probably not malice, just incompetance, with unspeakably horrible results. These are supposed to be highly trained professionals. Maybe they weren't trained in how to set up and operate a checkpoint - in which case whoever drew up their training programme ought to be court-martialled.

I saw a photo today of a soldier - on his helmet there was a painting of a skull, and a large painted slogan "Kill 'em all". What kind of insanity is it that allows that kind of thing, in an army that is supposed to be trying to convince frightened people that it is there to bring peace and liberty?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:03 PM

Lepus:

Virtually 30, man -- time to come of age!!

The human race has evolved a set of laws governing the conduct of war in a an often-vain attempt to prevent it from declining into barbarism.

I believe if you had been at that checkpoint, and that van had kept moving toward you in spite of warning shots, you probably would have pulled the trigger in a fit of panic, remembering what happened to your four colleagues who believed the peaceful taxi-driver the day before and ended up mincemeat on the sand. Not everyone is quite willing to experience that, you see.

Congratulations on three decades, and counting!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:37 PM

Bobert: Like Kat said, I'm 28, and so I'm still (*barely*) part of the generation that is fighting this war. As such, I think that I am in an excellent position to criticise the actions of my (*barely*) peers. I was raised on the same violent video games and anti-Islamic propaganda as these people, but I've somehow managed to avoid shooting up a van full of women and children. Youthful ignorance is not an excuse for murder.

And yes, Forum Lurker, I think that many of them DO want to kill what you or I might consider to be innocents, because they don't consider them to be innocents. Many of "our troops" joined up after 9/11 to fight a Muslim "enemy." On NPR's ATC yeterday, a tattoo artist talked about all the Christian, "crusader"-type tattoos he's been putting on US soldiers headed to Iraq. Even the veterans I know tell me that at least half of the soldiers they served with were racist, redneck psychopaths. These people don't deserve support.

Mick, that's an excellent point about dehumanising the opposition. But what would you call someone who illegally kills another person? "Thug" and "murderer" seem to fit here.

And would you really threaten to find/assault me, like Norton has, if you had kids in Iraq?

Doug, I remember when I used to defend you from flamers... Good to see you've learned to adapt so very well. :)

Oh, and Norton1. Can't forget you. No, I don't want a "confrontation" with you. If you were to follow up on your implied threats (And they were threats. Even people who like you criticised you for them.) and track me down, attack me, etc., I wouldn't fight you, no matter how hard you battered me with your walker. I have this "don't slug the aged" rule, you see.

I had a feeling you would back down once you realised that I am not, in fact, anonymous, and I was correct. It's good to know that you're just a gutless worm with a big mouth. I actually think more of you now than I did when I thought you were a crazed stalker. :)

---Lepus Rex

PS Kat, again: I'm not "barely" in my 20s 'til June, dammit.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 11:20 AM

It is nice to see a civil discussion going on here. Artbrooks is correct about the state facilities that are struggling.

wolfieVN - I can't say I am grieving about the choices my children have made. I taught them to think for themsleve, make a rational choice as they saw it, and then to plant their feet and stand for something. I have kids in harms way and I have a Daughter in Portland who is protesting this war with every fiber of her being. All of my kids have made choices and they are standing up for them. It is with pride I love all of my children equally. I do worry about them though. All of them.

I don't have to agree with someone to respect their choices. But by the same token if I choose to not pay attention to jerks and a-holes, as defined by me, then that is also my right. As is it yours.

I've found over the years that I give folks a couple of chances. After that I'll forgive the instance but will never forget or allow that person another opportunity to involve themselves in my life. I'm getting too old to put up with my stupid choices of the same old thing from the same old jerks. And I do my best to remember that it is my choice to set myself up for that.

Well enough babbling - have a superb day -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:32 AM

DougeR, you make me smile!

WolfieVN, you might be interested in reading this old thread, in particular Big Mick's posting of 27 Feb 1999 9:20am: click here.

And, just so you know, while it is admirable to try to keep a thread going on subject, quite often we will take off on what we call "thread creep" and whole other realms wind up being delved into, whether they follow the original intent or not. Herding Mudcatters in threads is like trying to herd cats...*cain't* be done.:-)

All the best,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Peg
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:52 AM

Just wanted to say there are some interesting perspectives being expressed in this thread.
Bobert, I particularly liked your discussion of the generational differences between the armed service personnel of today and those who served in Vietnam. Very apt and insightful.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:02 AM

Must the sins of fathers be borne by their children?

Not at all. But the MEMORY of those sins should be kept alive.
Imparts a sense of perspective, cuts down the tendency toward self-righteousness and helps to keep future generations from actiing like complete jackasses.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:30 AM

Lurker: Tsk. Tsk. Not only was acreage but square kilometers were checked again before a statement was put to print in refutation. One must be careful in tossing off facts so disdainfully.

I find dwelling on the sins of those long dead hard to understand in any culture. Must the sins of fathers be borne by their children?

Be very careful discussing a birth of capitalism, referring to your note to Amos in the same breath. This is not the thread to discuss such things, nor is it a thread to get into a fine arts issue, where I will paste you to a wall on your subjective statements.

The subject of this thread is that a father's children, a veteran in his own right, sought to serve their country in their own time. The units with which they were serving were called into harm's way. He shared their youthful poetry with us, with an explanation of why he did so. No more, no less.

To have a daughter in a zone of confict where missiles can reach beyond a front line can only compound his grief and fears.

I am impressed to find a site where so many peaceloving people have gathered with those who have served. I am surprised at the many who admit service to their country, whether happy with their past, or not; or, the unusual number of ground-pounders who sought peace after service. I carried my Hoehner chromatic (the piano didn't fit in the rucksack) as a young man, finding this site so many years later in search of a tune almost forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:45 AM

WolfieVN-I wasn't passing moral judgement, just pointing out the facts. Count acreage and you'll see my point.

Amos-I think that our wealth and freedom are somewhat mutually reinforcing. It's possible for us to be free because we can afford it. Conversely, because we're free, we can create the capitalist market, which encourages large scale spending, boosting the economy a la Keynes. Also, while I'll readily agree that our technological innovation is impressive, I can't say the same for our art. While we are primarily responsible for the rise of good speculative fiction, most of what is actually called art nowadays, whether literary, musical, or visual, far exceeds Sturgeon's Rule, and is entirely composed of crap. Europe at least has the glory days of classical Greece, Shakespeare, and honest traditional music to look back on, even if it did spawn Dadaism.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:08 AM

BRAVO, Amos! I wanted to add that but hit the wrong clicky-thing again

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: DougR
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:08 AM

Lepus: in your response to a messages posted by kat you describe yourself as a "ass-hole."

By God, I think you're right!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:02 AM

Forum Luurker... even the simplest functions of addition and subtraction in geographic terms task your first statement. Historically, of the four continents where trans-continental expansion was possible, technology based socieites prevailed where there was a mixture of societies seeking the same territories. Certainly, crimes against humanity were present in all cases. Not just our own expansion. I or you cannot absolve the sins of others, or change them. I strongly object tasking only our own people when evil is rampant, worldwide today.

I am not pleased with President Bush, but the September 11th attacks on all of us DID take place on his watch. Europe stood silent at the ethnic cleansing in the prior Jugoalavia, but Europe has its own agenda. In an apparently lawless world who will be first to say "enough is enough?" What value to us in any way is Afghanistan? What corporations, what monoliths are there? Maybe we do not trust our government, but who better to trust than the young men and women we raised in our image? Are some of us to say they have not learned from our errors in the past? Have the grace not to laugh up a sleeve at what some think of as an oxymoron, but, whatever its leadership, our American Military is the best trained, most intelligent and capable, available force to begin instituting a rule of law in a nuclear world with weapons of mass destruction. They have pledged their very lives not to Bush, or the past, but to that cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:48 PM

SINSULL, I think those are State owned and operated facilities, not VA/federal ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:21 PM

Well, just to keep things in balance, let me remind you that the people of the United States have also added huge amounts of value to the world in production, intiative, invention, aid by the bilions of dollars, and -- for better or for worse -- music and films. We have also added some truly extraordinary value in literature and art to the net assets of civilization on Earth. Let's just keep this in perspective -- it is just possible that the Grand Experiment of letting people live relatively free lives -- which started here -- might have something to do with the wealth the nation has accumulated. There are other countries with more natural resources, and larger populations, but there aren't any that have shown the spark of innovation and making things happen that the American spirit has brought forth.   I hate to sound like a jingoist but I hate one-sided criticism -- it violates my sense of fair play even when I do it! :>) And as wlel as a huge chain of offenses, they have, collectively, a huge chains of "ways to make life better" to their credit, which many of us are happy to enjoy.

So let's just be a bit balanced when we start upbraiding the nation for all its horrible sins. Its citizens by and large are doing well in life. Despite its natural resources, an Iraqi professional is fortunate to earn $45 a month, if I recall correctly. Just for one example.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:08 PM

And just to reiterate what F.L. has confirmed, wolfieVN, when one gets beyond the boundary lines and into *resources* we find another indisputable reality that the US controls ore than its share of the world's resources. And when we pull out the magnifying glass yet again, we find that it's the upper 1% are those in control...

And if we up the magnification, we find that these 1% not only have control over a large portion of tghe Earth's resources but also the resources of the working class in the US.

Hmmmmmm, Part 897?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:07 PM

WolfieVN-Strictly speaking, though, the U.S. is the country which has seized and kept the largest amount of territory. Neither the Japanese-occupied areas of China nor the Soviet satellites were as large, nor as long-occupied, as the total breadth of the United States, which was almost entirely taken by force. We do also consume more resources per capita than the inhabitants of any other nation in the world.

While Powell is correct that we have never asked land of those people we came to aid, he fails to note that on numerous occasions (Mexican War, Spanish-American War, the entire history of our dealings with the Amerindians) we have seizes the land we wanted by force, and that most of our interventions were done partly if not not entirely for self-preservation. It is no coincidence that we failed to enter either world war until our own citizens were attacked.