BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 12:46 PM

How can all you liberal fascists be so blind as not to see the obvious merits of itchymickey's argument. For cryin' out loud, most folk performance has been blatently biased for decades, at least. Bob Dylan never invited anyone to come up and sing a song favorable to the man who caned Hatty Carol. The Chad Mitchell Trio mocked both the KKK and John Birch Society outright, and never invited anyone onstage to sing anything favorable to either group. Tom Paxton has yet to invite anyone onstage to sing a song from the viewpoint that Tinky Winky the Tellatubby is, in fact, designed to convert young people to homosexuality.
But, in comparison: You'll never go to a Southern Gospel convention, without hearing someone who has been invited to sing material with an atheistic slant. You'll never hear Hank Williams Jr., or Toby Keith, perform, without inviting up someone to sing something with a leftist message. The whole situation is indefensible!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 12:42 PM

Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree is there?
You are a step ahead.

those with differing opinions need to get together before they can work out compromises.

So first you agree to disagree then you modify each other's beliefs so that compromise can be reached.

Seeger and the leftys just sung with and to people they agreed with-their view or the highway. Ethnocentric-narrow.....pie in the sky utopia- end war- peace now= love everyone.....(except I guess people you disagree with)

These are good good goals however you can not operationalize them without taking first step of inclusion, sharing the media, the stage, the dance.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 09:41 AM

"Ron either you are a uniter of the people or one who stays appart. "

Conrad, once again, you are wrong.

Your definition of "uniting" also needs work. It is not as cut and dry as you are trying to believe.

Uniting is not simply agreeing to disagree. Uniting is removing obstacles that prevent people from having the opportunity to unite. Acceptance of an obstacle and allowing it to fester does not unite.

Your narrow view of the world is just that - a narrow view. All you have been doing in your posts is proving that your position is hypocritical. If you were truly honest with yourself you would step back and re-read these posts and realize the smarmy tact you have taken.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 07:07 AM

Ron either you are a uniter of the people or one who stays appart. Uniting people who are all the same already is not uniting anything.
No you dont have to agree with people to hold their hand or be nice to them. Sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 12:03 AM

Enough of responding to this troll. His mind is as closed as his mouth is open.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 10:22 PM

Ron,
Right on!!
Art

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 10:15 PM

"Seeger et. al. seem to get the reputation for uniting people. I don't think so. Uniting them to his own way of thinking is not uniting anything and brainwashing using the only available channel for one point of view is not good."

Do you keep putting your foot in your mouth on purpose?

What is with you and hand holding?   YOU are the one who seems to be brainwashed with only one available channel for thinking and one point of view.

Sorry Conrad, but our version of "uniting" seems to be very different from yours. No one needs to sit down and hold hands with fascists, murders, racists or other thugs to create a better world. The outcome is not to "unite" but rather create a world in which we can hold hands without having to worry that they will take your hand and not give it back. Peace and love does not mean acceptance of what is wrong, it is defeating it. Pete is a fighter who fights the good fight.   Can you honestly say you do the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 09:50 PM

Sadly, a main reason what went down THEN hasn't been taken to and replicated now, is THE DRAFT. --- And that has made all the difference!

As far as Peasant is concerned, his main problem seems to be that he is anti-SEMANTIC!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 09:41 PM

No wrong!

When did pete seeger hold hands with anyone he did not agree with.

Not that he had to but it would have been the right thing to do.

Have him contact me and I will ask the relevant questions and get back.

It does need some more research.

But when you want to hold hands holding hands with those who agree with you is easy . Seeking out and holding hands on the same stage or same programme now that is achievement.

Seeger et. al. seem to get the reputation for uniting people. I don't think so. Uniting them to his own way of thinking is not uniting anything and brainwashing using the only available channel for one point of view is not good.

Seeger did many fine things and its a long list. But political bridge building was not one of them although he talked about it. So far no evidence he actually did it himself. But I am no expert. Let the experts find a time when he joined hands with people he disagreed with patched things up and shared the stage equally.

Now that is the ethical thing to do. No I dont know where the oppostion was however I did meet a researcher at loc recently who could cite chapter and verse on a few of them.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 12:41 PM

Conrad, you are adding your voice to the growing attack on anything that isn't associated with right-wing politics by your accusations. You claim to be neutral but in fact by your politicizing you are enabling these kinds of attacks. You are beginning to sound like
Joe McCarthy.

You are generalizing without a real knowledge of the relationship between folk music,
the left-wing movement, the Southern reaction, the folk revival in the popular music field
because the blanket statements that you are making are simplistic at best and false at worst.

If it wasn't for Pete Seeger introducing Earl Scruggs style of banjo playing in New York,
the devotees of bluegrass would not have grown so fast. Pete did more to celebrate the
Southern banjo styles in the rest of the country than almost anyone except for his late half brother Mike. Pete has never been partisan when it came to American folk music. That idea is just plain wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 01:08 AM

Conrad, I believe Stringsinger knows Pete Seeger personally.

You're just guessing, and you're wa-a-a-ay off base.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 12:08 AM

Sorry Conrad, you are coming across as a real hypocrite with your statements about politics and music. You certainly aren't practicing what you expect others to do based on your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:08 PM

Conrad, go back to my definition of political speech way above. If you have an opinion, you are making a political statement. Do you maintain that all music should be amoral and unopinionated? Booring!

The questions you never answered include mine: Can you cite any examples of right wing venues which have included left-wing or even neutral speech? Please be concrete and cite more than one example if you can. After all, everyone should present balanced shows, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 08:41 PM

dont think so I am convinced that as well as being a great folklorist he is a very calculating politico. He used song better than anyone else imho.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:31 PM

The lefty-hippie is a myth as Reagan's welfare queen.

The left employed a kind of discipline that hippies ignored. Many on the left emerged
as conservatives in their left-ness. This was true of the CPUSA.

Conrad, one of the reasons Pete Seeger was so attacked was that he was popular
with people of different political persuasions and thus considered dangerous by
right-wingers of his time. He could reach out beyond his perceived ideology which was
magnified by his detractors for political reasons. Pete never sang to just his own tribe.
He reached many people. And guess what, he still does.

One of his big fans was Nelson Rockefeller.

Conrad, Nixon and Bush were politicians. Pete is an artist/performer/songwriter.
He transcends a narrow ideology that you attribute to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:25 AM

No fan blowing on it- natural wind....nope- boxwoods aren't tall enough yet but some day. Oh well thats 500 in support just this last week and one against. No accounting for taste but it takes all types to sing in the choir.

The happyness that comes from my artcars just driving the streets is truly amazing. The horn clothing sounds really wondrous when it plays.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 08:34 PM

Wow....A tuba in a tree with a fan blowing on it. That's real art. Maybe you could hang a trumpet in a boxwood with a personal fan blowing on it and you'd have Bonsai representation as well! Yeah....Just like those piece of shit hulks you cover in tin cans and leftover paint you call artcars. That takes a real genius........Or those horn coats.....sewing a baritone horn or something into a coat....I am in aw...........................Like aw hell or aw shit or aw ain't this trash real fuckin stupid?

Seriously Man, that "art" you do is just some really dumbass stuff, just ignorant as all hell. But I guess you're happy huh? I mean if ignorance is bliss, you are probably fuckin' orgasmic!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Bettynh
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 08:31 PM

LOL Don!

Another thing we haven't mentioned is the reason all those guys were in school and hanging around coffee houses in 1968. The draft. Young men of that era were in school, in jail, underground, or in the armed forces. The Tet offensive had just happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 08:20 PM

Hey, Bettynh, you know what a lefty hippy looks like today?

He or she looks like middle or upper management and works for Microsoft!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 08:13 PM

Conrad, the "lefty hippie folk singer" is a stereotype that never really existed, except in the minds of people who hadn't a clue as to what was really going on in the world. I was there, and I know.

True, there were the so-called "flower children," and the "If you go to San Francisco, be sure to wear some flowers in your hair" things, but this didn't really last all that long, and it was not especially an aspect of the folk music revival. And Pete Seeger and the Smothers Brothers didn't have anything to do with that—except in the simple minds of people who like to stuff several disparate factors that they feel characterize an era into one sack, so they can reduce them to proportions that they can comprehend.

I was (am) a singer of folk songs. I got interested in folk music a couple of years before you were born, and by the time you were born, I was starting to get paid for singing engagements. Many of these were regular, long-term engagements in clubs and coffeehouses.

Ah, coffeehouses! Those infamous hippie hangouts!

Well, Conrad, let me clue you in. Most of the people I saw in coffeehouses were university students. They tended to dress casually, but not sloppily. Most of them (including me and the other singers) got regular haircuts and were clean-shaven. In some of the coffeehouses, especially late in the evening, it was not unusual to see a few patrons there wearing tuxedos and formal gowns. They were dropping in after attending an opera, a symphony, or a ballet.

Not exactly the stereotyped "lefty hippie folkie" hangouts that you, and a lot of other people who were never actually there, are picturing in your mind. No, Conrad, the image you have of that era bears very little relationship to what was actually going on at the time. We weren't all standing around holding hands, dancing the hora, and singing "Kumbaya," and "Michael, Row the Boat Ashore." Nor were we all singing labor songs and anti-war songs.

If you want to get an idea of the kind of songs that were being sung, take a look at books like Carl Sandburg's American Songbag or Lomax's Folk Song U. S. A. or Cecil Sharp's English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians. Or listen to the early records of Burl Ives, Susan Reed, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Ed McCurdy, Cynthia Gooding, and Joan Baez (when she was singing ballads). Later, some of the younger singers were learning songs from records by The Kingston Trio, Peter Paul and Mary, and the more commercial folk groups.

Remember, I was there, saw it, heard it, participated in it.

And as I have said several times here, I have heard Pete Seeger live, in concert, several times, and out of, maybe, thirty or more songs, some three or four at most might be what one would call "songs of social protest." And most often those would be historical in nature (pre-Civil War anti-slavery song or a union organizing song from the 1920s or 1930s).

And I remember watching the Smothers Brothers television show. I don't recall them doing much, if any, in the way of political material. I do recall the brouhaha over CBS trying to censor Pete Seeger's singing of "Waste Deep in the Big Muddy," which your whole thesis seems to be based on.

You're tilting at windmills, Conrad. And remember, the Knight of the Rueful Countenance, the original tilter at windmills, was delusional.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Bettynh
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 08:08 PM

::::waving little fan over both of Conrad's brain cells...have a cup of chamomile tea:::

What are some fascist or at least very right-wing folk songs of the 1940-1970 period?

What does a lefty hippy look like today?

Do you think THE MEDIA is biased?

What right-wing event featured left-wing personalities on their stage?

How much sugar should be in a good cornbread recipe?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:38 PM

Kumbayah= seeger did sing that but when you sing it only with your own tribe then what good is it? Seeger called himself a lefty several times in the fore mentioned documentary hippy maybe not....but close.

cant remember what questions I have not answered refresh the brain cells.

Busy with art today attached a turbine fan to a 12 food tall tree stump branch- on the other side hangs a tuba spinning in the wind....

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 05:55 PM

Spaw, I just ran across this thread last night--and I thought your first post to it was over the top even for you. Then as I continued to read *"#1 PISSANT*'s continued lame-ass restatements of his original post I realized that--as usual, behind your masque of moronity, you were dead on again.

Charles (seed)

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: olddude
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 03:54 PM

- Sunny Side Of Life -        

There's a dark and a troubled side of life
There's a bright and a sunny side, too
Though we meet with the darkness and strife
The sunny side we also may view.

   Keep on the sunny side always on the sunny side
   Keep on the sunny side of life
   It will help us every day it will brighten all the way
   If we keep on the sunny side of life.

The storm and its fury broke today
Brushing hopes that we've cherished so dear
Cloud and storm will in time pass away
The sun again will shine bright and clear.

Let us breathe with a song of hope each day
Though the moments be cloudy or fair
Let us trust in our Saviour away
He keepeth everyone in his care.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Bettynh
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 03:02 PM

Oops, that was me imagining Pete. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 02:59 PM

I'm trying to imagine Pete Seeger calling himself a lefty hippy...and I can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:41 PM

"You can't have unity or even seriously think about it until the other side is invited to the party.

No they don't have to do it but if it turns out they never invited the other side well then.....called monopoly.....and it shows that they were not entirely fair with their out front statements about world peace unity, cultural understanding."


You continue to skirt reality and suggest a dream world wear everyone sings Kumbayah, flowers are always blooming, everyone is healthy, and the sun always shines.

No one in their right mind would expect an artist to implement to their art and forum as you are suggesting, the idea is that there should be multiple forums to allow all viewpoints to be shared. That my friend, is the reality everyone else is working for.

Your claim about their stance on what they should do to prove their belief in unity is about as sound as the line in Monty Python that "if she weighs less than a duck, she is not a witch."   

In every conflict there are two sides and the solution is both sides coming to resolution. Your methods for achieving resolution would only work if both sides operated under the same terms, but we both know that was not the reality. The Smothers Brothers and Seeger were trying to find a forum that was denied to them.   It also seems that you are in denial of that FACT as well, Conrad.

They do work toward reaching compromise and achieving the unity that you describe, but compromise does not equate to capitulation of the ideals for which they are fighting.

Sorry Conrad, you keep skirting around the issue and you are still refusing to answer questions posed to you. Rhetoric does not win arguements.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 11:24 AM

yes they means the lefties etc...self described as such.

lefty hippy is still a useful term- and those described would not mind you using it about them.

I am called a hippy frequently although I have not much to do with the definition.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: frogprince
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 10:31 AM

I love the concept(if concept is an applicable word) of folk singers promoting "world peace on their terms".
I was finishing college in Arkansas during the later days of the Vietnam "Police Action". A few students took part in an anti-war march; there was at least one sign that said "Pray for Peace"; A larger number of students countered with a pro-war demonstration; there was at least one sign that said "Pray for Peace, but Like an American". Forty years later, I can still only speculate as to exactly what in hell that was supposed to mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Bettynh
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 10:18 AM

"Then they went and branded the entire folk community as lefty hippy as well"

The English language can be such a trial. In particular, please define the word "they" above. In your current post, you seem to use this word to mean "people like seeger and smothers", "all politicos" and the final reference, unlabelled, above. Who did this "branding"? What does a "left hippy" look like in this day and age? And of course the ultimate question on this forum:




What is the entire folk community?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 08:46 AM

If people like seeger and smothers suggest that everyone get together and hold hands they should do it.

Seems like they only wanted to hold hands with themselves.

You can't have unity or even seriously think about it until the other side is invited to the party.

No they don't have to do it but if it turns out they never invited the other side well then.....called monopoly.....and it shows that they were not entirely fair with their out front statements about world peace unity, cultural understanding.

Yes- world peace on their terms. Don't ya think that puts them on exactly the same level as george W Bush and nixon. Remember all politicos tell you that they are right and good patriots etc. But to be fair with the other side is another thing.

Then they went and branded the entire folk community as lefty hippy as well..

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:43 AM

Don, Very impressive. As a statistician, I was familiar with Tukey's work. I did not know that Lanczos had gotten there first.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 02:47 AM

I get it, Conrad. You think Pete and the Smothers Bros. should have invited pro war, pro segregation, anti-union, singers onto their shows, maybe like country music groups in the Sixties invited pro-integration singers into The Grand Old Opry or like their successors in 2003 and 2004 welcomed The Dixie Chicks? Or maybe like the Tea Party folkies welcome Barney Frank and Dennis Kucinich to their shindigs.

I'll bet you believe that THE MEDIA has a liberal bias, too, don't you?

Charles

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:07 AM

Thread drift:

EB, my friend was Elmar Lanczos. His father was Cornelius Lanczos. [PHOTO] But I would be very surprised if Cornelius Lanczos and Leó Szilárd were not acquainted. [BRIEF BIOGRAPHY]

The bio doesn't say anything about his getting his family out of Hungary, but I got the story—as well as he could remember it, because he was pretty young when it happened—from Elmar.

I met Dr. Lanczos on two occasions. Rather small in physical stature (maybe 5'6" or so), he was still very impressive. He looked like a falcon. And I had the impression that his brain emitted a 60-cycle hum!

Elmar told me that in Hungary, the name is pronounced "LAHN-tsosh." But to make it a bit easier on English speakers, they now pronounced it "LAHN-choss" ("choss" with a long "o").

Elmar was an important part of the folk music scene in Seattle in the late Fifties and on. He couldn't sing for sour applesauce, but he had no particular ambitions along that line. He owned a house north of the University of Washington, and on weekends, it was almost always fine with him for folk song enthusiasts to gather in his living room and sing until the wee small hours of the morning. He also had a monumental record collection of folk music, which he was willing to lend to various singers to learn songs from (provided he knew they would handle the records carefully).

He was a writer, and the hoots in his living room came to a halt for a year or two when he went to studied at Trinity College in Dublin, but resumed when he returned.

He died a few years ago from bone cancer. He left two sons:   Andrew, who lived in England for awhile and now lives in Tel Aviv;   and Ely, who lives in Seattle. His widow, Alice, is a very good friend of Barbara's and mine, and we get together often.

A picture of Cornelius Lanczos sits on Alice's mantelpiece.

People like Elmar Lanczos are the salt of the earth.

Don Firth

P. S. Elmar recounted an incident about his father. Dr. Lanczos was to deliver a lecture in a college auditorium, and when he walked out before the crowd of scientists and students, someone handed him a lavalier microphone that hung on a ribbon around the neck. Dr. Lanczos fumbled with it a bit and couldn't figure out how to put it on. So the fellow who handed it to him came out and helped him with it. The mic was on, and Dr. Lanczos was heard—loud and clear—to say to the fellow helping him with the mic, "I'm only a theoretical physicist."

Big roar of laughter!

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: emjay
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 10:30 PM

I'm sure I should read every post on this thread before I get all worked up and write something, but I'll read 'em all later. this is an interesting one.
And the recipe looks good. i printed it.
Some thoughts,
the victors write the history books,
the losers write the songs

I've always thought people who like and sing folk music are more liberal because of the social history in the songs
And anyway, folk musicians are just generally smarter than average
Martie

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 09:55 PM

OK, Conrad, let's put the shoe on the other foot. Since you are not willing to answer concretely on the left side of the ledger, who on the right side of the ledger has allowed leftist opinions at their events?

Don, was that Leo Szilard by chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 09:13 PM

Ok folks- public information- I have a resume page out there but here fore you.

Age 56
Married
one child
republican (US which does not mean I support anyone)
Student of history
Folk musician- professional
storyteller- professional

Focus- revival of FOLK MUSIC that is revival via lifeway with professional folk music appreciated but in second place.

Simply because FOLK MUSIC is the best way to safeguard the legacy.

Art Car Artist- Nationally Recognized

Horn Hatter- Developed the horn hat and the horn coat and the horn jacket not as costumes but as instruments.

Visionary Artist

Author

Publisher

Folk song transcriber- see my various collections

Ron- the next wassail book is nearing I think, completion and as at about 900 Pages.

I am Us Citizen but lived in the UK London 60s went to College there Durham, Van Mildert,70s and in munich 70s....

Specialist in music of the North East, Uk. Orange, Unionist Songs, St. Brigid of Kildare, the Gunpowder plot celeberations, Wassail....

Strong believer in folks having an academic interest celebrating what tey write about or dont do it at all.

So a bit of background and by the way....

Not a Racist
Not a fascist
No political side in Irish politics just advocate for the under represneted.

Pro fare price beer
Anti- commercialism

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 05:42 PM

Well said Don. Everyone is allowed free speech, but we cannot allow ourselves to tolerate hate. It scares the hell out of me that there are young people joining these hate groups, and we need to understand why they are doing it and remind ourselves of the dangers of not fighting fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 05:25 PM

No worries about my blood pressure, Bettynh. I'm fine.

I would, coolly and calmly, fight any attempt at a resurgence of fascism in the world, because being an old geezer, I remember WW II. Being too young at the time, I didn't know the history of what led up to it, but back in the days of antiquity (my youth), history classes were well taught and thorough, which, apparently, is not the case anymore.

When British and American troops discovered the death camps, I recall seeing photos of the kind I linked to above in Life Magazine (large format photo journal, weekly, 10¢ an issue). Everybody I know was shocked and horrified at what they saw. We all knew that the Nazis were brutes, but until those pictures appeared, we had little idea of the magnitude that brutality could reach. And the idea that this sort of cold, systematic, industrialize mass murder was done by intelligent and supposedly civilized human beings was more appalling still!

I had a friend, the son of a prominent theoretical physicist who was a friend of Albert Einstein, whose family managed to get out of Hungary just hours before the Gestapo came to haul them off to a concentration camp. Reason? They were Jewish.

But they had other plans for my friend's father. They intended to force him to help them in their efforts to develop an atomic bomb. But fortunately for the future of the world, my friend's father managed to escape along with his family.

And there is no doubt that if the Germans had succeeded in the development of the A-bomb (and they were chillingly close when the war ended), they would have used it. And undoubtedly one of the first targets (possibly combined with their V-2 rockets, or more likely, the A-9 A-10 multistage intercontinental ballistic missile they were developing) would have been London. You can imagine what course the war would have taken then, if Germany actually had such a weapon, along with an ICBM delivery system.

If the war had lasted a few months longer. . . .

And now we seem to have people who want to see it happen all over again. Or want us to tolerate those who want to see it happen all over again.

In practical terms, I, personally, don't need to worry about it much. As I said, I'm an old geezer and one by one a lot of my contemporaries (such as actor Robert Culp, with whom I had a nodding acquaintance as we were both students at the University of Washington, and who was a year older than I am) are toppling off the twig, so although my health is good (and my blood pressure reads about 120 over 70), I am aware that the lead horse of Time's Wingèd Chariot is snapping at my rear end. So if a Fourth Reich comes into existence, growing, say, out of the BNP or the American Nazi Party or the Aryan Nations (or all three!), I probably won't be around.

But I have a son. And nieces and nephews. And friends with children. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 04:52 PM

"Conrad seems to be a troll, although of the folk persuasion. I'm betting he's a} young and b} not from this country. In any event, he's woefully ignorant of the history of this country during the 60s and that PBS special didn't help"

I don't think that is the case at all. I cannot recall meeting Conrad, but if memory serves me correct, I did a phone interview with him on my radio program. We discussed the tradition of "wassail" and he was very eloquent and fun to talk with.

While I seriously question some of the statements he has made in this thread, and I do not agree with his politics (as I am perceiving from his notes), I will say that he knows history, even though his interpretation may be different from ours.

He certainly is pulling our strings with this thread, but if you read between the lines, this whole discusssion does give us cause to think - whether that makes us uncomfortable or not. Perhaps that is the true purpose of his actions?

I would certainly never expect any artist to give anything other than their opinion. I host a radio program, and I will be the first to tell you that I am not aiming to be fair and balanced. I give a stage to the artists I choose, and while I will try to play both sides of an issue - if it makes artistic sense to do so - I am not out to do anything other than promote the artist that make up the folk community.

There are several factions to that folk community, and the fact that there is a liberal lean to the point is just another aspect to that community.

If I want a debate, I will go to a debate. If I want to attend a Pete Seeger concert, I will attend. At either event, I know what I am getting.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Bettynh
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 03:48 PM

Don, I worry for your blood pressure. Conrad seems to be a troll, although of the folk persuasion. I'm betting he's a} young and b} not from this country. In any event, he's woefully ignorant of the history of this country during the 60s and that PBS special didn't help. I had to explain to a recent college graduate that the USA didn't win the war in Vietnam. She'd avoided all history in college, and the US history teacher in high school "ran out of time" to teach any history after WW2.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 01:42 PM

You haven't answered my question, Conrad, so I'll ask it again:

Can you give me some examples of fascist folk songs?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Bettynh
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:45 AM

"They did not invite others of opposing viewpoints because it seems they wanted to use their power of the media to dominate the discussion"

What exact power did comedy show hosts and a man who had been banned from national media for 10 years, and whose one song was chopped short, have? The power of history, perhaps, but not a lot at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:18 AM

No EB....You don't understand! Conrad wanted them to issue engraved invitations to share the program and perform all the music that shows anothere side. Indeed if there are 4 or 5 other viewpoints, all of them must be given equal time and cosideration because all have a voice in the choir.

Now the fact that you do not understand this is because you are sane and rational and living here in the real world whereas Conrad is a fuckin' moron with all the deductive powers of a concussed aardvark and lives in the land of the Terminally Screwed.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 10:48 AM

Conrad, answer the question. What concrete examples have Pete, et al, excluded or prevented from being performed, played over the air, sung, etc?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 10:45 AM

"Ron- once again seeger and smothers projected only one view unless you can demonstrate otherwise. They may have operated their own programs and concerts but they were also ambassadors of the folk movememnt at large as they were the only folk stages and outlets. Therefore they should have been more responsible and projected a wider range of opinion so that the folk movement would not have been branded as it was."

Conrad, that makes absolutely no sense. You have expectations that have no basis in reality. Art is subjective, it is not all encompassing. I don't care what song you are listening to, you are hearing the viewpoint of the singer and or writer.

"Did seeger and smothers et all turn down material or refuse artists the ability to share the stage."

Again, that makes no sense at all. It is their stage at that point in time and they are entitled to do as they choose.   THEY DO NOT OWN THAT STAGE - IT WAS SIMPLY THEIR TURN TO BE ON IT!!! Capish?

Freedom of speech does not require the artist to make such conditions as you are seeking. Your suggestion actually flies in the face of what freedom of speech is all about.

The responsibility for obtaining diverse opinions belongs to the audience, not the artist. It has always been so, it will always be so. If that ever changes, we are all in trouble.

You cannot regulate art.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 09:31 AM

They did not invite others of opposing viewpoints because it seems they wanted to use their power of the media to dominate the discussion.

It is a bit different when you are the only show in town.

If you are truly open and fair and sharing and want peoples to get together as proclaimed by seeger and others then you will invite diversity even if you have to do it yourself.

Remember we dont really know. Did seeger and smothers et all turn down material or refuse artists the ability to share the stage. And if that would not work did they find songs to sing themselves.

Of course they did not have to do this but it might have helped keep the entire folk scene from being branded which most likely hampered its growth.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM

Obviously you couldn't find a mirror.

If you really don't understand why Pete or anyone else didn't invite the "opposition" to perform then you truly are a fuckin' mental case.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:17 AM

Ron- once again seeger and smothers projected only one view unless you can demonstrate otherwise. They may have operated their own programs and concerts but they were also ambassadors of the folk movememnt at large as they were the only folk stages and outlets. Therefore they should have been more responsible and projected a wider range of opinion so that the folk movement would not have been branded as it was.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:15 PM

Again, Conrad, could you name some folk songs, ballads and such, that you feel are being excluded because of the "left-wing" bias of the singers? What songs would you like to hear sung?

Don Firth