BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 03:52 PM

"Leftist activists are having an increasingly hard time trying to defend Syriza."
Not my understanding of the situation
He has two alternative - Pay up and put the screws on the poor or refuse to pay and seek to renegotiate.
To his credit, he has chosen the latter and put it to a referendum (isn't describing this as a "betrayal" offensive? It is to me)   
"Instead of the referendum, new elections are needed as soon as possible."
So they allow the E.U. to decide who leads Greece?
As I said earlier, I always believed this was what the E.U. was about.
Having made our positions clear. let's leave it there - you support the E.U. and the bankers, I'll stick with a government which appears to be doing what it was elected to do.
I assume your refusal to comment on the morality of an impoverished nation being forced to pay debts to be paid to two richer ones, is on the grounds it may incriminate you
Bye
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 03:29 PM

Jim, I was stating facts, not my approval of them. I am not defending anybody. Cooperating takes two sides, both failed hitherto. Leftist activists are having an increasingly hard time trying to defend Syriza.

The referendum, as I read today, will be about one particular plan proposed by the Institutions, after the Greek government failed to produce a satisfactory one. Now you may think that is because the Institutions are particularly cruel and greedy, but in fact no plan was published that satisfies anybody at all.

Instead of the referendum, new elections are needed as soon as possible. The new government must have a robust mandate to impose hardships, not only financially (- these will come anyway -), but also mentally. With the Syriza people, this is not possible, not only because they stand for the opposite way of thinking, but mainly because they are not trusted by their own voters.

A functioning Greece will be worth its price, for leftists and conservatives alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 11:57 AM

As far as "creditworthiness" goes - as things stand at present, member states owe The United Nations $3.5bn, the U.S. alone owes $337m
Hands up all those who think the U.N. will send in the bailiffs!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 11:47 AM

Excellent post Mr Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 11:45 AM

I didn't care much for the musical

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 11:16 AM

"Democracy is about a country's own resources, not about foreign money. "
That's a meaningless statement
Th Greeks are in a crisis, the alternatives are to reuse to pay the dbt to the E.C. (still no comment on the morality of taking from a poor nation to reward two rich ones) or to adopt even more stringent austerinty measures - making the poor pay to keep the wealthy wealthy.
Creditworthiness my arse - that's for bankers, not for co-operating nations.
I suggest you look at the shipowners and how they regard their "responsibility" to the Greek people as a whole.
One of the measures proposed is to make them pay a fair whack into the economy - talk about cat and pigeons!!
You are doing a grand job defending the better-off in Greece - me, I prefer the other side, every time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 10:44 AM

There seems to be a fairly agreed consensus in the world press that this is a move to bring Greece to heel politically

I agree, and I also agree that poor Greeks are not always in the focus of the institutions' interest. But, and that is my point, neither is what Syriza does.

placing the interests of the alliance above democracy

That is total nonsense. Democracy is about a country's own resources, not about foreign money. The Greek can mandate their government to refuse repayment of debts (which they did), but cannot decide that foreigners have to give them new money. If understood in the latter sense, it would be a betrayal of their voters - one more. Propaganda goes wild. Fortunately, many Greeks realize the truth and only vote for Syriza because the others seem even worse.

You also have yet to comment on the fact that Greece took out loans in order to pay them back into the E.U. to support France and Germany

What comment do you expect? Trying to pay back one's debts keeps up one's reputation of credit-worthiness, but ruining the debtor is in nobody's true interest. Many things went wrong, as everybody knows. And BTW: The actors of the drama are never whole countries, but governments, companies (such as banks), pressure groups (e.g. of Greek ship owners), and institutions, with their individual considerations and responsibilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 07:31 AM

"The current one seems to offer only a short delay of the inevitable disaster "
It's been asking for two years to put right policies of a Government that went along with the E.U. and borrowed in order to pay debts to the E.U. which were intended to support to of Europe's richest countries, France and Germany.
There seems to be a fairly agreed consensus in the world press that this is a move to bring Greece to heel politically - you have yet to comment on the fact that an E.U. official described the referendum as a "betrayal" - placing the interests of the alliance above democracy.
You also have yet to comment on the fact that Greece took out loans in order to pay them back into the E.U. to support France and Germany    - somewhat "unacceptable face of capitalism" to borrow a phrase.
What is really a "red herring" here is the "little man"
We all know that the smallest debtor stands at the end of the queue to get paid - if there is anything left.
C'mon Grish - show is where you stand on the real issues
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Musket sans Jaffa cake
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 04:28 AM

Greece isn't out on a limb in terms of collecting taxes, just at one end of a scale.

I experienced the differences in many EU countries first hand as when in business, we had companies in The UK, Germany, Italy, Ireland, Sweden and France. (As well as some non EU, Swtizerland, USA, Canada, Singapore and Australia.)

Some tax authorities were quicker to chase and penalise than others. The UK? Get your VAT return in quarterly. The first reminder included a small fine and their collection bailiffs don't need a separate warrant to take goods. Germany was as strict, and their corporation tax collection was just as strict, stricter than The UK.

If you forgot to do your VAT return in Ireland, just do it before the next one is due (although when The UK bailed them out a few years ago, tightening up was part of the deal.). Also, up till fairly recently, weekend working was traditionally cash in hand for many and the revenue allowed for large petty cash withdrawals without paperwork. That has ended of course but you can see the connection with their mini meltdown.

Other countries? Between the two. Oh, except Italy.

Bless them. To this day I don't understand Italian business law and how it is applied, especially in fiscal and revenue terms. I'm still a non executive director of my old firm there but I only get confused if I challenge our finance people.

I got out of business in 2003 but I still see the link between national debt and tightness of tax collection. Greece isn't somewhere we did much but even many years ago, I recall the difficulties in getting letters of credit for the small amounts our agent in Athens bought.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 03:36 AM

Er, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the US of A suffer similar problems to the Euro when it tried to unify the currency of all of the states. And then again after the civil war (civil? - not from what I read).

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Deckman
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 05:09 PM

I saw this coming years ago when the whole phoney system of the EU was in the discussion stages. It's always been a "house of cards." As it continues now to fall apart, and it will, hold on.

To quote a song:

"FOR THE BANKS ARE ALL BROKEN THEY SAY,
AND THE MERCHANTS ARE ALL UP A TREE,
WHEN THE BIGWIGS ARE BROUGHT, TO THE BANKRUPTCY COURT,
WHAT CHANCE FOR A SQUATTER LIKE ME" bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 04:39 PM

Don't agree - the election was not fought on whether or not the dept should be paid - that is the situation nowThis is an emergency and it is only right that the Greek people should be consulted
I thought an 'emergency' was an unforeseeable bad situation.
I'm sure the papers have been saying for a long time that this was all on the cards.

It's all very well for Greece to consider 'welching' on their debts. But those who do so usually find it much harder to raise any form of credit in the future, and face paying higher rates for any credit they can raise.

I remember a Scout camp in the Netherlands in the 70s. This camp was held every five years, and our Scout Troop attended every one. Only once did a Greek troop attend. Their leaders arrived, and went to the bank to change their Drachmae for Guilden. (Greek currency for Dutch)
They had a very good camp, spending freely to give their Scouts a good experience. At the end of the camp their leaders changed their remaining Guilden back to Drachmae, and like the feeding of the 5000 the leftovers were greater than the original input.
While the camp was happening, the Drachma had been devalued. There were rumours that one of their leaders was attached to the Greek Treasury, but we were never sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 01:44 PM

Jim, what I am saying is that the debt as such is not the question at all, since creditors (and this includes many little savers, directly or indirectly via pension funds etc.) must write off most of it anyway.

Before asking who should pay now, not for the debt but for the current expenses, one must specify what to buy. Earlier governments offered "austerity" - not really convincing. The current one seems to offer only a short delay of the inevitable disaster (for the whole Euro zone and beyond). The next government, hopefully to come soon, should offer the revolution that can prevent the worst disaster for Greece and Europe. It will be expensive enough, and we all have to pay, but there will be hope, other than with Tsipras and his desperate voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 11:53 AM

proud football teams rarely protest against the existence of an external referee
No but the managers get pretty close, and the other 22 million referees do.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 10:09 AM

Don't agree - the election was not fought on whether or not the dept should be paid - that is the situation nowThis is an emergency and it is only right that the Greek people should
be consulted (the E.U. bod described it as a "betrayal", which is exactly what it isn't) - almost forces me to reconsider my contempt for (most) politicians
It certainly is not a "red herring" - the idea that once a Government is elected it has a mandate to do as it pleases - doesn't work like that, or where it does, you end up with parliamentary dictatorships, as in Britain
One of the joys of living in Ireland is the number of referenda it is forced to hold rather than leaving decisions in the hands of the establishment.
Can we assume you are not intending to address the points made in the article - the main one being that Greece is being instructed to repay a loan which was used to pay into the E.U. to support France and Germany?
The "moneylenders" in question here are certainly not "the poor" - the Greek elite certainly - but the present threat comes from the European right who are not prepared to accept the result of the last election - it's happened before outside the E.U. when the U.S.has sent in the marines to "stabilise the country".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 08:41 AM

Jim, there is no such alternative as you describe - the whole referendum is simplistic propaganda with a "red herring". The government already has a democratic mandate to default on its debts, of which it makes use.

"Moneylenders" include rich and poor, Greek and foreigners. They now prefer to keep their remaining money as cash under their mattresses.

"Austerity" is not the correct word either; "reform" would be better, or indeed "revolution". If the gvt. has such a recipe, they keep it secret, and their propaganda suggests the opposite. To be fair, there have been some steps in the right direction recently, but much too few and too slow. Herculean efforts are required by all people involved, Greek and others, immediately.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 08:22 AM

Here is an extract from an email I received yesterday from a Greek friend. He lives on one of the islands:

"The majority of the Greek people do not care anymore. We have been financially exchausted, after all the austerity measures that were focusing at the Bank's saviour.
Nobody cares about the people. Everyobe cares about the Banks.

We got to a point were people are not worried anymore. If it was a picture, the Greeks would be in an ocean sinking while the european leaders would point us a finger warning that if we leave Europe we will get wet. I guess that you can get the paradox of this.

So, we are doing the only thing we know, as Greeks. We get to do the best out of it. Live and let live".

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 08:06 AM

"Joseph Stiglitz seems to be the only person in the world who knows what question exactly will be asked on Sunday,"
Really - sorry, however it is worded, the referendum will be on whether the moneylenders should be paid - all sides have made their positions clear - those who support a Yes vote have clearly stated that the debt should be paid and further austerity measures should be put into place - the theme of last night's rally.
What is important about Stiglitz's article is that it points out that past loans have been spent in supporting France and Germany - the moneylender loaning money in orderd to have it paid to the moneylender - and so ad infininitum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:55 AM

another article in the irish times at the weekend stressed the importance of greece to the west in a geopolitical sense, as regards nato, and as regards it being the last european stat bordering on the islamic region, then there are150 thousand dul greek ukranians citizens living in the conflict area of eastern ukraine ,then there is energy, russia is planning a pipelineto transport its gas across the black sea through turkey,greece would like to be its next stop, greece controls transit between mediterranean and black sea and the us military base in crete has played a key role in nato interventions in the middle east.i am guessing the us will not allow greece to leave i reckon pressure will be put on europe to be more accomodating towards greece

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:33 AM

So the Greeks don't like paying taxes? Jeez, that's bad. Almost puts them on a par with Amazon, Starbucks, Boots and all the other major multi-nationals who pay corporate accountants vast sums of money to hide their profits from HM Treasury.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:14 AM

""Well actually the problem with Greece is that you still have an establishment that enriches itself while below it are the average people who have to improvise in order to survive. Businesses are shaken down by corrupt tax officials in a system more suited to a feudal society or an occupation. EU money disappears before it reaches the projects it is meant for. In some million euro projects money is skimmed off by everyone who touches it and in the end maybe there is enough left to hire three Albanians and a donkey. You don't have to be a communist to say that in Greece the people with power and money do whatever they want or that the government collects a lot of money that goes right into their pockets. In the words of a Greek businessman "I would not mind paying taxes if I received something in return. But the government takes our money and then it disappears. The government that steals from its people forces the people to become like criminals to protect themselves ." The people are at war with the government, fighting over their money.""



Greece 

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 06:59 AM

Joseph Stiglitz seems to be the only person in the world who knows what question exactly will be asked on Sunday, let alone all the consequences.

Another important point: the current crisis is not about existing debtors (who, according to most authors, have written off their money long ago), but about potential future lenders and investors, or rather the lack thereof. If it were chiefly a left/right issue, leftists would be happy to lend money to the Greek government - they are not. In fact the government's rhetorics are not left-wing at all, but unashamedly nationalistic. The right-wing coalition partner fits perfectly.

To be sure, many people in many countries are to blame for the crisis. I am not defending the Troika's politics, but one of the problems is that their task is not to tell Greeks what exactly to do internally.

What would be needed world-wide is institutions analogous to the UN Blue Berets, as neutral as possible, who could organize national elections, democratic constitutions, and good governance, when so entrusted by the locals. (Such institutions already exist, but they are not yet "robust" enough.)

For example, we often read that the loser of an election accuses the winner of manipulation, leading to a new civil war. This need not be. As for national pride and dignity: proud football teams rarely protest against the existence of an external referee.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 05:50 AM

Pretty fair analysis of what appears to be happening in Greece; from this morning's Irish Times
Jim Carroll

CALLOUS MANAGEMENT BY EUROPE'S LEADERS REVEALS DECEIT WITHIN DEMOCRATIC PROJECT
Joseph Stiglitz
Analysis
EU Leaders seem to think they can bully the government of Greece out of office

The rising crescendo of bicker¬ing and acrimony within Eu¬rope might seem to outsiders to be the inevitable result of the bitter endgame playing out be¬tween Greece and its creditors.
In fact, European leaders are finally beginning to reveal the true nature of the ongoing debt dispute and the answer is not pleasant: it is about power and democracy much more than money and economics.
Of course, the economics behind the programme that the troika (the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund) foisted on Greece five years ago has been abysmal, resulting in a 25 per cent decline in the country's GDP. I can think of no depression, ever, that has been so deli¬berate and had such catastrophic consequences: Greece's rate of youth unemployment, for example, now exceeds 60 per cent.
It is startling that the troika has refused to accept responsibility for any of this or admit how bad its forecasts and mod¬els have been. What is even more surprising, though, is that Europe's leaders have not even learned. The troika is still demanding that Greece achieve a primary budget surplus (excluding interest payments) of 3. 5 per cent of GDP by 2018.
Economists around the world have condemned that target as punitive, because aiming for it will inevitably result in a deeper downturn. Indeed, even if Greece's debt is restructured beyond anything imaginable, the country will remain in depression if voters there commit to the troika's target in the snap referendum to be held this weekend.
In terms of transforming a large primary deficit into a surplus, few countries have accomplished anything like what the Greeks have achieved in the last five years. Although the cost in terms of human suffering has been extremely high, the Greek government's recent proposals went a long way toward meeting its creditors' demands.
We should be clear: almost none of the huge amount of money lent to Greece has actually gone there. It has gone to pay out private-sector creditors - including. German and French banks.

PAID A HIGH PRICE
Greece has got but a pittance but it has paid a high price to preserve these countries' bank¬ing systems. The IMF and the other "official" creditors do not need the money that is being demanded. Under a business-as- usual scenario, the money received would most likely just be lent out again to Greece.
Again, though, it's not about the money. It's about using "deadlines" to force Greece to knuckle under and to accept the unacceptable - not only austerity measures but also other re¬gressive and punitive policies.
Why would Europe do this? Why are European Union leaders resisting the referendum and why did they refuse even to extend yesterday's deadline for Greece's next IMF payment by a few days? Isn't Europe all about democracy?
In January, Greece's citizens voted for a government commit¬ted to ending austerity. If the government were simply fulfilling its campaign promises, it would already have rejected the proposal, but it wanted to give Greeks a chance to weigh in on this issue, so critical for their country's future wellbeing.
That concern for popular legitimacy is incompatible with the politics of the euro zone, which was never a very democratic project. Most of its members' governments did not seek their people's approval to turn over their monetary sovereignty to the ECB.
When Sweden's did, Swedes said no. They understood that unemployment would rise if the country's monetary policy were
It is startling that the troika has refused to accept responsibility for any of this or admit how bad its forecasts and models have been set by a central bank that focused single-mindedly on inflation (and also that there would be insufficient attention to financial stability). The economy would suffer because the economic model underlying the euro zone was predicated on power relationships that disadvantaged workers.
Sure enough, what we are seeing now, 16 years after the euro zone institutionalised those relationships, is the antithesis of democracy: many European leaders want to see the end of prime minister Alexis Tsipras's leftist government.
After all, it is extremely inconvenient to have in Greece a government that is so opposed to the types of policies that have done so much to increase inequality in so many advanced countries and that is so committed to curbing the unbridled power of wealth. They seem to believe they can eventually bring down the Greek government by bullying it into accepting an agreement that contravenes its mandate.

TROIKA'S TERMS
It is hard to advise Greeks how to vote on Sunday. Neither alternative - approval or rejection of the troika's terms - will be easy and both carry huge risks. A Yes vote would mean depression almost without end.
Perhaps a depleted country - one that has sold off all of its as-
sets and whose bright young people have emigrated - might finally get debt forgiveness; perhaps, having shrivelled into a middle-income economy, Greece might finally be able to get assistance from the World Bank. All of this might happen in the next decade, or perhaps in the decade after that.
By contrast, a No vote would at least open the possibility that Greece, with its strong democratic tradition, might grasp its destiny in its own hands. Greeks might gain the opportunity to shape a future that, al¬though perhaps not as prosperous as the past, is far more hopeful than the unconscionable torture of the present.
I know how I would vote. –
(Guardian service)
Joseph E Stiglitz, a Nobel Laureate in economics, is a professor at Columbia University. His most recent book, co-authored with Bruce Greenwald, is Creating a Learning Society: A New Approach to Growth, Development and Social Progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 04:26 AM

put yer bifocals on PAL!
6 Billion peeps in a world getting hotter. predicted to peak at 9 billion (yea, right!).

All those poorer peeps are gonna want what we have. Which amounts to waste of resources, profligacy, greed.

If that happens slowly, like off-shore employment, then economies like Greece will only have tourism and debt for company.

And we, the enlightened haven't spotted it yet. Well some of have, but don't have effective solutions while the blind are still leading the blind.

Population explosion was a worry once. Now science WILL come to the rescue. Yea right! Science doesn't have a solution to Greed - well none this side of Hitler.

the slogan: "Eat the politicians" will make a healthy return. Mark my words.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 03:57 AM

".I actually remember "the poor"....and there aren't many of them around these days."
Some facts
"More than 80 percent of the world's population lives in countries where income differentials are widening.Source 2
The poorest 40 percent of the world's population accounts for 5 percent of global income. The richest 20 percent accounts for three-quarters of world income.Source 3
According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they "die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death."Source 4"
Number of children in the world
2.2 billion
Number in poverty
1 billion (every second child)
GLOBAL ISSUES
Perhaps Specsavers might be of assistance?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 03:50 AM

We? It has started to happen. California has the water and electricity questions looming. Detroit bankrupt. And Scotland thought it cute to pander to false common hopes and go it alone, but they wanted the crutch that is the "pound" just in case.

The problem is traceable to politicians and a fragmented electorate. Which the UK is heading towards, or was, maybe we (as a nation) saw some glimmer of consequences and went with "the incumbent". Gawd help us.

When there are many "parties" they feel they have to promise ever wilder popularist budgets in order to win and stay winning. Result: they spend more than they earn. Italy is not that far behind - 21 Prime Ministers in 23 years (at one point) then Belusconi!. Spain in deep doodoo. Tourism seems to figure highly in those economies too.

And why must our GDP grow when Moore's Law gives us twice as much in 18 months? (hint) the law was noticed by him, but has existed since before Gutenberg & Caxton (mentioned because they are understandable, but the law holds true since way before that).
Answer: Greed.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 03:01 AM

If folks want a capitalist society....and they obviously do, when are they going to understand about the nature of the beast?

Of course nobody wants austerity, but austerity is part and parcel of the cycle. In a capitalist society we are encouraged to expect an ever increasing standard of living ....in financial terms.

In reality, the minute we stop making a profit, investment goes elsewhere and we start to use tactics like imported labour to prop up a failing system.

In ten years or sooner we will be just like Greece.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 10:49 PM

So who is the biggest loser?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 08:47 PM

"and there aren't many of them around these days"
Whattttt????
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 06:41 PM

"Now, it appears, we have a Government who has cried, "enough is enough - no more austerity measures"
I really do wish there were more such Governments prepared to take a stand."Jim Carroll.
I agree

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 06:28 PM

do we really need them?

Inner cities or the poor.

And yes, I'm plenty old enough.

If you'd like to meet some non inner-city poor folks, who are not on the dole, take a jaunt across the pond and I'll be glad to introduce you to several millions.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 06:14 PM

It's about as "idiotic" as self sufficiency and sustainability Greg.

If you are not to old you may see it making a comeback.

and inner cities are a major part of the problem....do we really need them?

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 05:46 PM

I actually remember "the poor"....and there aren't many of them around these days.

Even more idiotic than usual, difficult tho that may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 05:45 PM

Not many gardens in inner cities,where the poor lived, or should that be existed, one family to a room. You had it soft Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 04:03 PM

Hmmm....I actually remember "the poor"....and there aren't many of them around these days.
There is a whole industry looking after them, a NHS which dispenses carrier bags full of snake oil to make GPs and drug companies rich
Food is dumped by the lorry load, just to keep the tills beeping.

I remember when everyone in our village was an expert gardener, not because they liked a hobby, but because if they did not work a bit of ground, they went hungry.

It was hard, but by God it concentrated the mind....and was good for the environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 03:45 PM

Please distinguish creditors and debtors.

Ake - the poor do not need to be poorer.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 03:17 PM

Its the same the whole world over.....everyone has "something" to lose

The revolution has been cancelled.


When someone has the brains and the guts to convince people that we all need to be poorer to be better off, the "brave new world" will have arrived......

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 01:54 PM

Greece has very little history of Left Wing Governments; can't recall one at least since the colonels.
After the war, Greece fought a civil war over the complexion of governments there - the West backed the right.
My father's brother was a decorated war hero in WW2, yet he was court martialed for refusing to go to Greece to train the Fascist "security battalions" which came into being in support of the Nazis, but later played a key part in the Civil War.
The right and centre have always made the running there, before and after the colonels
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 01:44 PM

Roger has the gist of it.
Consider these statistical facts:
Greece currently has 26% unemployment.
23% of the employed work for the government, so they essentially produce nothing.
Pensions for the retired government workers amount to 18% of the GDP.
Greece is running a debt that is twice their Gross Domestic Product figure.
Greek banks, though still primarily solvent, have no ready funds that can be loaned for business expense and development, at any interest rate.has been allowed to reach this point due to bailouts intended to keep them on the Euro and in the Eurozone
Greece's GDP is 25% lower now than 5 years ago.

This is a recipe for collapse. and no finger-pointing at banks or the tax-dodging rich will change it. Greece has been allowed to reach this point due to bailouts intended to keep them on the Euro and in the Eurozone, certainly not due to any corrective measures adopted by Greece. They will hold a vote of the people on July 4 to see if required austerity measures attached to another bailout are acceptable. Based on previous Greek reactions to imposed austerity, and the fact the current prime minister was elected based on promises to reduce austerity, I think it will be voted down. So Greece will leave the Eurozone, and go back to it's traditional Drachma currency. And what value will that have? They will still be insolvent, and where will the bailout then come from? I am guessing China, whose motives for any bailout are pretty frightening to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 01:00 PM

Whatever complexion government was in power in Greece it practiced nepotism and turned a blind eye to bribery. Greeks milked the available EU funds for all they were worth. Tax evasion was a national sport but people saw the corruption at the top and said"Why should I pay taxes when they don't". A Greek friend who had a baby last year had to take a bribe in a brown envelope to give the doctor if she needed
painkillers which should have been free. When you buy a house you declare a lower figure for tax and pay the balance to the seller in
cash in front of the lawyer at the time of completion! Local and central govt was full of people in non-jobs drawing salaries and then pensions because they or their relatives had contacts in the ruling party. I love the Greek people dearly for their hospitality and general relaxed attitude to life (which is why we've been going there for 30 years) but I couldn't live or work there.
The present crisis was always on the cards but the people are suffering for the faults of the system the politicians created. There has to be some debt write-offf. The burden is unsustainable in an economy that relied heavily on tourism and has few natural resources. People in tourism and agriculture work incredibly hard for small rewards while bureaucrats have lived well off the state.
Athens is a world away from the life on the islands which is often still a hand-to-mouth existence.
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 12:30 PM

"The first thing is to get the state back on its feet, and blaming others (however justified) does not help at all."
It really isn't a mater of "blaming" anybody - the Greek Govenment has been placed in a position by the European Union it feels it cannot accept - the Union hierarchy has described the action the Govenment has taken - letting the people decide by referendum, as "a betrayal", so it is obviously placing it's own decision-making above both the interests of the Greek people and above democracy itself.
What it is demanding is that the mother starves her children in order to pay the debt collector.
An interesting development which has just been announced here in ireland echoes what is happening in Greece.
The Irish Government has just announced that it is passing legislation to allow debtors to collect their debts from the wages of them owing money or from benefit payments.
I don't think that many would argue (other than the usual suspects) that the economic crises faced by the peoples of Ireland and Greece are down to avarice and incompetence of a banking system which encouraged taking out loans unwisely, the result being a worldwide collapse in economies.
Governments rushed in to prop up the banks, which, return, paid the executives massive bonuses to repair the damage they themselves had done.
This has led to a whole trance of austerity measures, forcing the victims of greed, corruption and (at the very least) bad advice, to put right the damage done by those in charge.
Now, it appears, we have a Government who has cried, "enough is enough - no more austerity measures"
I really do wish there were more such Governments prepared to take a stand.
There'll be a pint waiting behind the bat of my local, should any of them be passing this way.
More power to their ****** elbow, I say!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 12:26 PM

Step 1. Impose exchange control (argue about the legality or otherwise) overnight.
Step 2. Require total transparency of assets and income - worldwide - for all living in Greece over 21 days a year and all corporations with incorporated in or doing business in (as distinct from with - a well known point of tax law). Failure to comply - instant confiscation of ALL known assets of the people or the corporations or the management of the corporations (that includes nominees in lawyers' offices).
Step 3. Confiscate stuff from all with over a threshold level - it might be relevant national median (not mean). The degree of haircut can be on a sliding scale - in these days of computers there is no need for a stepped scale.
Step 4. Use that to pay off the IMF and EU.
Step 5. Divide any surplus fairly (lots of room to manoeuvre in that) amongst the poorest N percent of individuals domiciled or ordinarily resident in the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 11:40 AM

The responsibility of any Government is to the people it represents, not to debtors.

Yes, and it is irresponsible towards one's people to tell them they need not do anything themselves. The first thing is to get the state back on its feet, and blaming others (however justified) does not help at all.

BTW, we should never speak on behalf of "the West" or any government.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 11:11 AM

"quite the opposite of a responsible approach."
Not really - the present predicament is down to the E.U. foreclosing on a debt which was taken by the last Government partly to pay their dues to the E.U. - not sure of the details, but something to do with funding France.
The responsibility of any Government is to the people it represents, not to debtors.
The more this develops, the more it becomes obvious that it has more to do with the political leanings of the democratically elected government than it has with the actual debt
This is part of a longer article on the Western reaction to the Greek Coup of 1967:
"In the beginning the reaction to the junta was that it did not have any support, that if everybody showed their disdain by boycotting the regime, then the regime would fall. Some hoped the junta was just a temporary parenthesis, a group of misled patriots who would eventually return the country to democracy. Others believed that once the Great Western Powers saw that the politicians and the intellectuals were against the junta, they would intervene to restore democracy. But nothing happened. The U.S. Government, despite a few gestures of disapproval by isolated Congressmen, not only continued but increased its military aid to Greece, even as the American people were being told that there was an embargo on arms shipments to Greece. The island of Crete is being turned into a NATO nuclear base. Presently the U.S. is trying to secure permanent home port facilities in Piraeus and other major Greek ports. And with troubles in Turkey, Greece is becoming the whorehouse of the Sixth Fleet."
THE GREEK COUP
It seems that democracy is a movable feast as far as the West is concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 10:08 AM

It is all about corruption; once rooted deeply enough it is hard to eradicate, but not impossible. The current Greek government, well-meaning or not, told their voters that it is all the foreigners' fault, and now feel they have to prove it - quite the opposite of a responsible approach.

Good governance, or rather: a much better one than now, is possible, but takes immense willpower. For example, those many civil servants can be sent away from their homes, regrouped every two months, to ensure correct tax payment, public spending, elections, etc.

International institutions like the IMF can help a lot, but their current mandate is too technical and based on an illusion of national sovereignty, so that it often effectively helps the wrong people. New institutions are required. Don't expect the impossible, but demand the possible!

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Martin
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 09:47 AM

Wonder whatd've happened if Ireland had stood up to the bully boys. The UK seem to be pretty good at bullying & they seem to be getting left alone!

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 05:56 AM

"My thoughts and hopes are with the Greek people in their trouble."
Just listened to an interview with one of the Greek right politicians
His alternative - pay the moneylenders and instigate an extreme austerity programme as Greece could not survive outside the Euro.
He avoided replying to what would happen if the referendum returned a "no" vote on Sunday.
The answer, he claimed lies totally in thriving private enterprise - Next step, a return to the Colonel's regime, I imagine!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Jun 15 - 03:17 AM

The catch-cry about Greeks and taxes is, ironically, led by EU bosses with stratospheric salaries - on which these EU bosses are entitled to pay no tax.

It's true that Greece has borrowed enormously. But this has been done in the manner of the kid with his arm twisted up behind his back by the school bully, who's saying "OK, you're going to 'borrow' 50 dollars from me, and then pay it back with interest". The enforced loans are used to pay back the bankers. They don't go into the Greek economy.

Remember when the US was blockading Cuba and the Cubans couldn't get medicine and supplements for sick kids? A lot of doctors went on holiday to Cuba then, bringing cases full of medicine to donate to clinics. Well, that's happening now in Greece. People going on holidays with their carry-on full of inhalers and antibiotics, because Greek hospitals and clinics can't get medicine; it's fine for the rich, but if you're up against it, you can't go to hospital to get your broken leg fixed without getting into major debt.

My thoughts and hopes are with the Greek people in their trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 10:44 PM

IMF dirty MF
Takes away everything it can get
Always making certain that there's one thing left:
Keep them on the hook with insupportable debt
...And they call it democracy

It's not really fair to blame Germany (or any other countries) for all this. The IMF and the World Bank, who for decades have been imposing "austerity" on poor countries around the world, are part of the enforcement arm of multi-national capitalism. It all seems to be part of an overall plan to weaken the middle class and bring the world back to a feudal system.

One day you're going to rise from your habitual feast
To find yourself staring down the throat of the beast
They call the revolution
(Bruce Cockburn)

Subject: RE: BS: Greece in meltdown? What do you think?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 15 - 08:19 PM

The rich find ways not to pay taxes just about anywhere. The trouble with Greece is that if you're not rich you're far too poor to pay more tax, if any tax.

It's pretty daft - the way thing is heading Greece is bound to default, cancel all the debts, and in the process likely set off the collapse of the EU. Much more sensible for the debts to be cancelled. Either way they won't get paid, but that way it'd be a lot less traumatic for everyone.

It's ironic to remember that enormous German debts were written off after the war, very sensibly. Now they are hellbent on driving Greece into the ground. And of course they paid derisory amounts in reparations to Greece and the rest once they became walthy enough to pay up.

As for all that stuff about everyone paying their debts - when it comes to companies and thewealthy that doesn't appy, they just go bankrupt.