BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 09:26 AM

There is a big difference between being forced at all times to carry an ID card with tons of data on its strip and carrying a simple means of identifying yourself in circumstances where you may be asked to confirm who you are. I can use the bus for free - as long as I show my bus pass (which has my fizzog beaming from it). When I go to the Eden Project, if I don't want to pay the entry fee I have to show my annual Locals' Pass. If I want a third off my rail fare I have to show my Senior Railcard. It should not be beyond the wit of the powers that be to devise a cheap, simple and discreet way for asylum seekers to show that they are entitled, without stigmatising them into the bargain. Yes a compulsory ID card is an affront to civil liberties. The non-removable wristband is much more akin to that than anything Backwoodsman suggested.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 08:53 AM

"On the subject of identification of certain classes of UK immigrant who may be entitled to certain benefits, would it not be acceptable to issue such persons with a 'credit-style' card, along the lines of the Driving Licence Photocard? Clearly, such people might need to be able to prove their entitlements from time to time, what would the problem be with such a card?"

Ah an I.D. Card no-less - Didn't the "liberal-left" find those objectionable too and an affront to civil liberties?

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 08:45 AM

Jim, I started to re-read the whole thread to try to find where your nemesis had claimed specifically that UK hotels use wrist-bands in order to differentiate between classes of customer, or earmark customers who are more- or less worthy than others, but I began to lose the will to live, such is the level of bollocks, bullshit and plain, straightforward Terry-Fuckwittedness flying around.

Could you point me to the post in which he made that claim please, as my perception has been throughout that he was referring to **some** hotels of which he has experience, but which are not necessarily in the UK. Even though you may not have come across wrist-bands issued by hotels to denote specific classes of guest, you have my absolute, firm assurance that I have - although these have been in hotels in Mediterranean holiday resorts, not in the UK.

On the subject of identification of certain classes of UK immigrant who may be entitled to certain benefits, would it not be acceptable to issue such persons with a 'credit-style' card, along the lines of the Driving Licence Photocard? Clearly, such people might need to be able to prove their entitlements from time to time, what would the problem be with such a card?

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 07:44 AM

"No, you had it right, Jim --"
Must brush up on the classics {mind you the present series of 'War and Peace' has saved me a large slice of my life! Probably would never have managed it)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 06:59 AM

No, you had it right, Jim -- it was the Queen of Hearts in Wonderland, not the Red Queen in Looking-Glass Land. She was the one who declared, when Alice said she had lost her way, "I don't know what you mean by your way. All the ways round here belong to me": which, if has ingeniously been suggested (see Wikipedia &c) is a reference to the fact that the Queens are the only chess pieces that can move as far as possible in a straight line in any direction.

≈M≈

One must beware of over-interpreting the 'Alice' books; OTOH, Dodgson/Carroll had something of the same reputation of my o-so-humble self, as being something of an

Official Legendary Pedant

≈M≈ OLP

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 06:48 AM

"Jim, wristands are the standard way hotels identify AI guests."
Not in Britain they're not - in any circumstances
If there is any doubt of what you are entitled to you are politely asked to identify yourself by your room number, which is checked by your name.
"Everything I said on the subject was true."
No it wasn't - it was total fantasy and had it been true, has nothing to do with yte attempted identification of impoverished asylum seekers (unless you are suggesting they should be housed at The Ritz!!)
"Your pm quoted me describing an over-representation of a demographic in a certain crime,"
Your response to a tiny number of crimes against underage girls was to describe it as due to a "cultural implant"
No here Keith - happy to provide the whole kit and kaboodle to anybody interested.
Don't call me a liar again or I will put up more.
Address the points made - no your Alice in Wonderland fantasies.
Off with his head!!! (whoops sorry Mike - wasn't that Alice Through the Looking Glass?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 06:27 AM

"UK hotels do not offer such holidays"

Wrong Again

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 05:39 AM

Jim, wristands are the standard way hotels identify AI guests.
UK hotels do not offer such holidays.
Everything I said on the subject was true.

Your pm quoted me describing an over-representation of a demographic in a certain crime, which is well established and not a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 04:54 AM

"I've stayed in in the Mediterranean, to issue non-removable WRIST-bands (not ARM-bands, Jim "
We're not talking about the Med, this is about Cardiff - about as far away as you can get from Crete.
At no time have we encountered the practice of asking guests to wear wristbands at anytime, at the bar or anywhere in a British or Irish hotel - never - and this includes the few highly starred hotels like the Shelbourne in Dublin or the Hilton at Stanstead, we have stayed in.
I agree with your final sentence wholeheartedly but would add that the act of forcing asylum seekers to wear identification tags of any form, openly or covered by clothing places them at risk.
Sure - if they need to produce identification for official purposes or to obtain services - no problem - we are all in this situation, but this is different.
These people are already open to abuse and attacks, and many have been traumatised by recent experiences, without adding to their problems.
There have been cases of actual and threatened abuse taking place, the pracices of marking homes with plaques, same-colour front doors and the forcible wearing of identification at all times has been abandoned as an obvious thread - it seems sheer, bloody-minded inhumanity to continue to defend those practices.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 04:18 AM

It is common practice in hotels, certainly those I've stayed in in the Mediterranean, to issue non-removable WRIST-bands (not ARM-bands, Jim - stop pretending to be thick) to guests who are staying with them on an 'All-Inclusive' basis. They are similar to the wrist-bands which UK hospitals put on in-patients. They denote the entitlement of the wearer to the benefits of 'All-Inclusive' terms, which are not available to guests who are staying on other bases. They can't be removed and replaced for reasons which are obvious but, since some seem incapable of understanding, I'll explain - it's to stop A-I guests 'lending' them to non-A-I guests in order for the non-A-I guests to avail themselves of benefits to which they are not entitled. At the end of the wearer's stay, the wrist-band is easily removed by cutting with scissors.

This is fact - I have witnessed it, and discussed the purpose and use of these wrist-bands with A-I hotel guests many times in the (mostly Greek/Cyprus/Corfu) hotels I've stayed in.

Using any kind of visible indicator, be it a badge, wrist-band, arm-band or a fucking tattoo on the forehead, to indicate membership of any social or socio-economic group, and evidencing entitlement to benefits allocated to those groups clearly would lay the wearer open to abuse by those who resent those groups and, IMO, the very idea is to be deplored.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 03:51 AM

"The argument/ discussion has long since been won by Keith and others who support his views on the matter."
No it has most certainly not been - nobody other than your gang has bothered to stay around and none but you band of brothers has expressed support for this vile and now abandoned practice - that's the way these arguments go.
Neither of you has addressed the compulsory nature of these non-electronic identification tags, and you have ignored the
and neither have you even bothered to acknowledge the affect they had on the people forced to wear them.
You appear to be claiming victory on peoples' silence here as Keith has done elsewhere on other subjects.
The practice, along with that of putting identification plaques and painting doors a single colour has been universally condemned by all but the extreme right (such as yourselves).
You, at leas, have made it clear that your sympathy lies with the racist vandals rather than the asylum seekers
"The truth of the matter is, that in pooper areas it is almost impossible for a young couple to get a house, when they see houses being specially refurbished and given to AS for free; they rightly or wrongly come to the conclusion that they are being victimised to serve a political agenda.....this has been happening for a number of years.   the present charade is a media smokescreen to divert public opinion from the real problem."
Keith has yet to come out of his closet and blame the Asylum seekers for their predicament.
Hi La-La world of hoteliers forcing their customers to wear armbands that have to be cut off, in order to be fed is the only defence he has put up for this disgusting practice - it has been shown to be both dehumanising and dangerous for the wearers, it has been abandoned and is only defended now by those who have defended similar examples of abuses of human rights in the past.
You want to argue Ake - address the reality of the situation.
These Asylum Seekers have fled regimes who routinely persecute and threaten only to be met with the similar persecution and threats from our own home-grown thugs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Feb 16 - 03:11 AM

The argument/ discussion has long since been won by Keith and others who support his views on the matter.
Pointless to keep repeating what should be obvious.
I presume Keith only persists to refute the distortions.

The main point of the thread was to prove a conspiracy theory, all sensible people reading this thread will have come to the conclusion that such a stance is nonsensical.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:07 PM

Question.

Am I alone in noting that certain members are not participating in the defence of the undefendable.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 03:29 PM

I have done Keith - read what I have put up
"I look forward to seeing the quotes Jim, but I will not hold my breath!"
I will PM your quote for fear of having this thread closed,
You have denied making it a dozen times, then, when it is put up, you have blamed somebody else for putting it up to you
If anybody else here would like copies of our PMs, I will be happy to supply them
This goes with anything I P.M. to Keith.
I'm doing this in order to avoid our arguments closing or interrupting this or future discussion - there is no reason, as far as I'm concerned that anybody interested should not see them - if curious, P.M. me.
"Wristbands not armbands."
Makes no difference to a gang of racist thugs wandering the streets looking for victims
Either are identifying markers singling out asylum seekers, which is basically why they were re removed (no forgetting public indignation, of course.
"Lies Jim"
Chapter one
"Wristbands are a very common way of identifying which people are entitled to which perks.
You wear them in 5* all inclusive hotels!"
"All the well known Hotels, e.g. Hilton, use wrist bands.
There would be long queues at the bars if anyone who turned up was given free drink."
!"Yes it was. The bands were not given to all immigrants, only those with an entitlement.
Some form of identification is necessary.
IT WAS COMPULSORY TO WEAR THEM AT ALL TIMES, INSIDE AND OUT - IT WAS A FORM OF TAGGING - NOTHING MORE
That is the point of wristbands.
They stay on.
At hotels they cut them off when you check out.
No-one else can use them because cutting invalidates them.
They can not be lost or stolen, unlike cards."
NO HOTEL HAS EVER INSISTED THAT GUESTS WEAR ARMBANDS AT ALL TIMES WITHIN OR OUTSIDE THE PREMISES - EVER; NO HOTEL WOULD DARE - NO CUSTOMER WOULD CONTEMPLATE BEING FORCED TO WEAR AN ARMBAND THAT HAD TO BE CUT OFF - EVER
These claims are all made up la-la fantasy - can you provide links to examples of this compulsion ever being used in hotels in Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 02:25 PM

you have claimed, first all hotels in Britain, then all 4 star hotels in Britain, .... , force customers to wear armbands

Lies Jim. Why not quote me?

WW1, Israel, Ireland, Homs, "all British male Pakistanis"........ all full of untruths and distortions.

I look forward to seeing the quotes Jim, but I will not hold my breath!

the practice of FORCING, asylum Seekers to wear armbands

Wristbands not armbands.

AI hotels that use wristbands do remove them on checkout. (See the link on the holiday thread)
No-one is forced to wear them, but you would not be able to access your entitlement very easily without one.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 02:12 PM

Told youi I'd be back
First an apology to all
On Tuesday Feb 2nd I wrote
"The Yellow Star comparison is not mine, in fact a Jewish speaker on last week's Question Time made exactly the same comparison - she raised the question of it being a 'pilot scheme' also".
It transpires that though I saw the lady say what she said, it is quite likely it was not on Question Time – I was TV surfing while the ads were on and assumed it was Question Time – it was possibly another programme – five days had elapsed between seeing and posting.
1 I apologise for my mistake on two counts:
That it might have created confusion in the minds of people who have difficulties with long postings and big words.
2 That my mistake has given Keith a reason for avoiding the subject of this thread by accusing me of lying.
I don't lie, make things up or distort facts – I see no point in doing so and Keith's and any of his few friends' inept idiocy makes such effort entirely unnecessary anyway
My mistake makes little difference – it was said and I was delighted that a Jewish person empathised with a group of asylum seekers, comparing their position to that of her own family in 1930s Europe; which was basically why I put it up in the first place.
I have since scoured the net to see if any other members of the Jewish community have done likewise– either to give support to the asylum seekers, or to object to the comparison – sadly, they haven't.
A warning for the future to all concerned (no names, you understand);
If you call me or anybody a liar again – ever – I will systematically sort out every lie you have told and every distortion you have made and put them up in full – would probably take me up to Monday to go through the number of times you have claimed, first all hotels in Britain, then all 4 star hotels in Britain, then Hotels in Shark Bay and Sharm el Sheik.... et al, force customers to wear armbands which have to be cut off when leaving.
After that, my choice is endless – WW1, Israel, Ireland, Homs, "all British male Pakistanis"........ all full of untruths and distortions.
May as well start as I meant to continue:
Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 12:59 PM
" Keith A did not lie Fact"
Yes he did - he claimed 4 star hotels made their customers wear armbands that need ed to be cut off on leaving - any takers on that one?Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:46 AM
"No I did not."
Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:46 AM
"That is the point of wristbands
They stay on. ."
At hotels they cut them off when you check out.
No-one else can use them because cutting invalidates them."
Right – teatime
I'll be back – as Arnie was heard to remark – though he probably doesn't watch Casualty!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 12:48 PM

"Shaw does love to argue no matter how ridiculous he makes himself look."

Here is what Shaw thinks represents the norm in the UK as he spins in ever decreasing circles to support his rather dubious claim that Armbands are the same as Wristbands:

"I do not possess a single long-sleeved shirt of any description. In cool weather I wear a sleeveless gilet (Mountain Warehouse) over a short-sleeve shirt. In cold weather I chuck a waterproof on top. I live in a place where the daytime maximum rarely fails to reach 10°C, even in mid-winter. I estimate that, when I'm out and about, any wristband attached to my person would be visible for all to see on at least 320 days of the year."

Only one word comes to mind - PRAT.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 10:20 AM

Steve, some form of id is needed for people receive what they are entitled to.
Wristbands are usually considered a cheap and effective option.
The alternative is cards.

If that is what they prefer, they should have them, but why assume as Jim does that wristbands were deliberately chosen by the government to persecute these people?

That is his whole argument, and you seem to be cheering him on however many falsehoods he states as facts to back his case.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 09:30 AM

Why don't you tell me what you really think? :-)

I do not possess a single long-sleeved shirt of any description. In cool weather I wear a sleeveless gilet (Mountain Warehouse) over a short-sleeve shirt. In cold weather I chuck a waterproof on top. I live in a place where the daytime maximum rarely fails to reach 10°C, even in mid-winter. I estimate that, when I'm out and about, any wristband attached to my person would be visible for all to see on at least 320 days of the year. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 06:26 AM

For Shaw's benefit:

"An armband is a piece of material worn around the arm over the sleeve of other clothing if present. They may be worn for pure ornamentation to mark the wearer as belonging to group, having a certain rank or role, or being in a particular state or condition. Spring armbands have been used by men to keep overlong sleeves from dropping over the hands and thereby interfering with their use.[1] Armbands may also refer to inflatable armbands used to assist floatation for swimmers."

An Armband (Infamous)

Now here are wristbands:

Event and security wristbands

No comparison or equivalence at all really but Shaw knows that as does everyone else reading this thread, but Shaw does love to argue no matter how ridiculous he makes himself look. His ethics seem to be based on double standards and hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 06:11 AM

" Insubstantial errors of that kind made in haste are hardly earth-shattering."

Well for most of the time Shaw you and your pals DtG, GUEST Raggytash; Musket and Carroll seem to think so. But as stated previously - There is one law for the Goose and another for the Gander.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 06:09 AM

Yes I suppose I am wrong with that last comment. You can convince yourself of anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:59 AM

Wrong again Rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:22 AM

I suspect you're not even convincing yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:17 AM

I am sure that the tips are excellent.
I do not espouse their use, but it was relevant to point out that bands are not impervious to abuse.

No mistake, like confusing arm bands with wrist bands, or claiming the wrong programme, or claiming I said UK hotels require wrist bands, or claiming that I requested posts be deleted or that mods would take any notice if I did!

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:12 AM

There is a significant difference between wrist and armbands, armbands are not an issue in this case, and it was dishonestly misleading for Jim to keep describing them as arm bands when they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:11 AM

I suppose that's why you said there were some EXCELLENT tips on how to TAKE ADVANTAGE and BEAT the wristband system.




Incidentally this demonstrates my first point which was you do not acknowledge you have made a mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 05:02 AM

I did not espouse the virtues of fraud.
I said there were some tips on how it might be done, especially suited for Texans in Mexico.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 04:50 AM

"Rag, not one thing in your last post is true" Hmmm OK Keith how's about the following:

Subject: RE: BS: All inclusive holidays
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 16 - 03:19 AM

Some excellent tips here on how to take advantage and beat the wristband system in all inclusive hotels.

http://thetravelingwizard.com/cancun-and-the-wristband-economy/

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Feb 16 - 04:38 AM

Steve, most of the year you must get very cold outside with just a short sleeve shirt on.
Wristbands are much smaller and more discreet than armbands whatever you wear.

Rag, not one thing in your last post is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 05:09 PM

"Armbands are worn outside the sleeve and mark you out unmistakeably.
A wristband is hidden by the sleeve, and without a sleeve is easily concealed by a watch, bracelet or charity band."

This is turning into a laugh a minute. I only ever wear short-sleeve shirts. I do not possess bracelets or charity bands (whatever they are - can't see asylum seekers making them a top priority somehow). My watch is a five-quid eBay cheapie that has a narrow plastic band. I suppose that, were I an asylum seeker, I'd have to insist on a subsidised trip to Next and a good jeweller before my wristband was fitted, just so that I could hide it.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 04:50 PM

Keith, have you ever acknowledged you have made a mistake unless you have been browbeaten into such a situation... I, and I suspect many others, would answer in the negative to that question.

For instance on another recent thread you espoused the virtues of using a wristband to take advantage of the offers available to those people who had paid for the "privilege" of having a wristband without actually paying for one yourself.

I also suspect you asked for several post to be deleted when this was mentioned. I have no proof of this but I'm sure if I asked the right people the right questions I would get an answer.

I don't know if you have ever defrauded organisations by taking advantage of fraudulently using a wristband in this way, only you and your God know that. But I suspect that someone who would promote such fraud as you did may be susceptible to the possibility.

The bottom line is you are not above condemnation yourself. So before you start casting aspidistras at other people you may, as someone else has already said, want to look carefully in the mirror.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 04:16 PM

There is a very significant difference.
Armbands are worn outside the sleeve and mark you out unmistakeably.
A wristband is hidden by the sleeve, and without a sleeve is easily concealed by a watch, bracelet or charity band.

No one was offended by by misspellings.
Mr. Ban and Ms. Alibhai-Brown have made no objection so why should you.
Also, I have been known to misspell Western names too.
Just a spurious excuse to criticise me personally.

And Keith, if someone makes a mistake here it's nice if they just acknowledge it.

He tried to deny he had made a mistake until he was forced to admit it, and even then suggested I might be lying about it!

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 02:31 PM

Well I suppose your wrist is a part of your arm. You're clutching at straws, dear boy. Insubstantial errors of that kind made in haste are hardly earth-shattering. In the end, though, explicit lack of respect for people not of your own culture or ethnicity ("it doesn't matter because they don't read Mudcat anyway" sort of thing) has caused endless trouble for this planet.

And Keith, if someone makes a mistake here it's nice if they just acknowledge it. We don't expect grovelling, dirt-eating apologies, so give over being such a big baby and stop demanding one from Jim. And cast ye out the plank while you're at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 02:02 PM

Good heavens Shaw - Jim Carroll said that some "comared" something - that might be hurtful and offend sensibilities.

He said that people were wearing "armbands" when they were wearing "WRISTBANDS".

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 01:54 PM

Yes he did - he claimed 4 star hotels made their customers wear armbands that need ed to be cut off on leaving -

No I did not.

He comared the enforced wearing of armbands at all times to 4 star hotels making customers their customers wear armbands to buy drinks

No I did not.

nobody has argued in favour of this practivce of identifying asylum seekers

Neither have I.

Keith has supported it and claimed it to be common practice elsewhere

Ity is common practice elsewhere, but I acknowledged it might not be appropriate in this case.

Jim, you were wrong to claim that you saw it on Question Time, and again when you repeated the claim, waiting a week from the programme when many are deleted.
No apology.
You ask us to believe that it was on some other programme, but offer no substantiation.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 01:48 PM

Well, hateful Guest-coward, 'twas Keith, rightly in my view, who was first accused of pedantry. I'm not aware of anyone going to town on the little mistakes and typos that crop up in most people's posts (I've even had Michael bang to rights once or twice!) Dammit all, the typing in the little white box is so titchy for old peepers like mine. If your English grammar and spelling is a bit below-par you are still entitled to post as long as you try hard, and no-one should have a go at you, as that would be bad form, and pedantic to boot. Insisting on getting people's names right is not pedantry, it's a demand for respect. And, as was so predictable, Jim has fully acknowledged his error. Now, Guest, perhaps you'd care to turn your fire on those who make errors, often repeatedly, then go into denial. Keith shall remain nameless. You should like that.

And this: "On the subject of Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Keith A only copied how the Lady describes herself"

... is not true. Here's the whole post from Keith that prompted me to correct him.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 02 Feb 16 - 06:13 AM

Jim,
"The Yellow Star comparison is not mine, in fact a Jewish speaker on last week's Question Time made exactly the same comparison"

Not true.
The bands were only referred to by Jasmin Aibhai-Brown [sic], 28 minutes in.

She is Pakistani not Jewish and she did not compare them to yellow stars.
She never mentioned yellow stars at all.

Keith back-pedalled on the bald and highly-inaccurate statement "She is Pakistani..." only after I'd challenged him. He would never had essayed his bungled "corrections" at all had I not done so. Honesty is the best policy, chips.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 12:59 PM

" Keith A did not lie Fact"
Yes he did - he claimed 4 star hotels made their customers wear armbands that need ed to be cut off on leaving - any takers on that one?
He comared the enforced wearing of armbands at all times to 4 star hotels making customers their customers wear armbands to buy drinks - any comparison from anyone here other than Keith.
I say what I saw - I accept that I may have the programme wrong but that's what I saw
If Keith saw the programme - perhaps he might explain who defended the practice, who they were and why?
As I said, I have no neen to lie - nobody has argued in favour of this practivce of identifying asylum seekers - at best, they say it was a mistake - but most oppose it
Keith has supported it and claimed it to be common practice elsewhere - that is a lie and it is a lie in order to identify asylum seekers and the Jews once were.
My mistake is now eing used as a diversion from that fact as I knew it would be.
"he'll check but there will be no apology."
I always apologise when a mistake is pointed out - please show when that has not been the case - won't hold my breath
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 12:50 PM

But I must remind Guest that I was long ago declared the Official Legendary Pedant...

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 12:49 PM

The mind boggles, GrengF!

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 12:33 PM

our Pendant-General

Precisely which part of Steve is hanging down, Bearded Fred?

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 12:27 PM

" Jim made a mistake. It's clear from his last post he's receptive to that possibility and he says he'll check (I can save you the effort, Jim). In contrast, you made a mistake about Yasmin Alibhai-Brown (not only concerning the spelling of her name, which you insultingly dismissed as unimportant, but also in getting her nationality wrong), but you've dug in your heels and won't back down." - So says Steve Shaw President of the Mudcat Forum Pedants Circle.

He made a mistake and accused Keith A of deliberately lying - Keith A did not lie Fact

Jim Carroll made an error which may/may not have caused offence and hurt sensibilities - he'll check but there will be no apology.

Trouble with Arab/Muslim names there are many ways to spell them - Yet still our resident pedant jumps right in and shakes the incident like a terrier shaking a rat - God help you Shaw if you ever do the same, then we'll hear you squeal if handed the treatment you are now dishing out.

One law for the Gander and another for the Goose is Shaw's way of doing things - His pals can get names, details, facts wrong right, left and centre and not a peep from our Pendant-General.

On the subject of Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Keith A only copied how the Lady describes herself and if memory serves the Ugandan-Asians expelled by Amin were stripped of any entitlement to call themselves Ugandan the second they were deported. Now as Yasmin's father was born in India before Pakistan was created and Yasmin was born in 1949 just after the creation of Pakistan - she describes herself, in her opinion as being "part Pakistani".

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 09:11 AM

pedantic
pɪˈdantɪk/
adjective
adjective: pedantic

    excessively concerned with minor details or rules.

Looked in the mirror lately Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 09:09 AM

I've contributed a good number of opinions about wristbands in this thread, Keith, as anyone can see. At last count, ten posts entirely on topic, five slightly sarcastic ones and a good few now about your erroneous characterisations. Ten is not a bad haul, Keith. It makes me one of the biggest on-topic contributors in this thread. It is egregiously ridiculous to claim that I have had nothing to contribute, whether you agree with it or not. What beats me is why you think you can get away with saying such nonsensically untrue things when the thread is here before us for anyone to check. You seem to think we're all stupid or something. As I keep saying, the more you behave like this the less trustworthy it makes all your other assertions on this forum seem. If that's what you're aiming for, fine. Don't let me stop you.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 08:40 AM

Pathetic.
Neither Mr. Ban nor Ms. Alibhai-Brown use Mudcat.
She describes herself as a "leftie liberal, anti-racist, feminist, Shia Muslim, part-Pakistani, "

The threads were not about spellings but issues.
You had nothing to contribute on the issues so resorted to pedantic, nit picking attacks on me personally.
Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 07:32 AM

You misspelled her surname too. Then you claimed that it didn't matter because at least we all know who we're talking about. Well it does matter. We need to be sensitive about name spellings in a country with diverse cultures and ethnicities. It's called being respectful. When you were corrected over the form of address for Mr Ban, you ignored it and went on to commit the same error in a subsequent post. You said, without any qualification, that Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is Pakistani, full stop, period, end of. She is a Brit who was born in Uganda. An unqualified assertion that she is Pakistani is laughably wide of the mark. As you were using this to criticise someone else's inaccuracies, it makes it all the more offensive. You clearly don't do irony. Your circumlocutions after I'd challenged you are irrelevant with regard to the fact that you refused to say oops, got that wrong, it was a misleading characterisation. You're a silly man in these matters and it wastes a lot of energy. If you're wrong, own up. Once you've done that, everyone understands and no-one mentions it ever again. Happened to me loads of times. The trouble is, you have form, so this makes all your other assertions appear untrustworthy too. Not the way to carry on, but I suppose you won't be told.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 07:01 AM

but also in getting her nationality wrong)

I never referred to her nationality which we all know is British.
I described her as she describes herself.
I pasted in her self description.

That and the spelling of Yasmin were irrelevant to the issues under discussion and just the latest example of you attacking me over spurious claims because you have no reply to my points on the issue.

If the bands could be taken off without invalidating them they could be lost or stolen like cards can be.
They are needed to access daily needs of food and welfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 06:19 AM

If it's only removable by destroying it, yes it is. There are good reasons for that in hospitals, but not anywhere else. To me, whether you can easily slip the thing off and stick it in your pocket is crucial. If you can't, it's repressive.

I checked that programme too, and Jim made a mistake. It's clear from his last post he's receptive to that possibility and he says he'll check (I can save you the effort, Jim). In contrast, you made a mistake about Yasmin Alibhai-Brown (not only concerning the spelling of her name, which you insultingly dismissed as unimportant, but also in getting her nationality wrong), but you've dug in your heels and won't back down. Keith can never be wrong. That's the difference, Keith. I think you need to stop calling Jim a liar right now, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 05:39 AM

They are not arm bands they are wrist bands.
Some form of ID is needed to access entitlements.
Wristbands are how it is done in most other circumstances.
They are hidden by sleeves and without sleeves a bracelet, watch or charity band would conceal them.
They can not be lost or stolen, unlike cards which might take days to get replaced.

If people really object, then let them have something different but do not use it as evidence of persecution.
It is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Beats yellow stars, I suppose!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Feb 16 - 04:08 AM

Were you hoping that the programme would be taken down after a week?
It stays for eleven months. Bad luck.