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BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: kendall Date: 28 Mar 05 - 08:51 AM So,as far as trolling and flamming go, what is the difference between a Guest and a person who uses a made up name? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Mar 05 - 08:33 AM What complicates things with DNR is that sometimes a response, or a response to a response opens up something you want to discuss. Avoiding geting into threads started with evident flaming or trolling intent is not that hard - but when a good thread gets invaded by someone intent on stirring things up in a damaging way, there still may be a discussion going on you want to join in with. What I try to do these days is, once I have identified someone as a person who is more likely than not to be a troll or a flamer, I try to go right past them, and itnore their existence. And if I ever want to respond in any may to something they have written, for example when it has been picked up by someone else, who has with something to say, I find it's easy enough to avoid making any direct referance to the T or F. Unnamed GUESTs generally go on my list of posts to be scrolled past unread. That may mean I miss some interesting posts that aren't intended as destructive, but if we use the same name as some extremely nasty people, an inevitable consequence is that we are likely to get confused with those extremely nasty people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 28 Mar 05 - 08:27 AM I don't doubt they are fine fellows. They do, however, suck as forum moderators. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 28 Mar 05 - 08:25 AM I've met Mick and Joe. They are both fine fellows, and, the control of personal attacks is probably going to get even more restrictive. (And, about time too) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: jacqui.c Date: 28 Mar 05 - 08:00 AM I am now in the habit of scrolling past the posts of certain contributors without even thinking about reading them. For me those people do not exist. In the real world they are people who I would avoid anyway, in view of their attitude and behaviour and I can see no reason to do anything different here. They have given me no reason to think that they can contribute anything that I might find of benefit to me. As has been said on so many occasions - if these people are shunned by everyone who finds their behaviour unacceptable they will, eventually, moderate their behaviour or leave the forum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 28 Mar 05 - 07:43 AM The worst flamers are Joe and the clones--no, I take that back. Most the clones don't play the flame game anymore. It's pretty much down to Joe and Mick who do the flaming--hell, they even name their favorite targets, right here in this thread. The two of them are the worst forum moderators I've ever encountered in my years online, bar none. Mudcat--one big, miserable, dysfunctional family. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: kendall Date: 28 Mar 05 - 06:21 AM This is a great site. It has become a valued part of my hobby, and I hate to see it degenerate into a pissing contest. For once I agree with with Clinton Hammond; deleting posts will stop the nastiness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: akenaton Date: 28 Mar 05 - 05:52 AM I've been reading these posts, and have coime on a bit of a preoblem. How do I define a troll? There are some members who see every one who disagrees with their point of view as a troll, especially over big subjects like politics, sexuallity, religion ect As far as Martin is concerned, he likes to wind up those he perceives to be pompous or hypocritical. I've been on the receiving end on quite a few occasions, but I dont get angry, in fact if Martin pulls me up about something, I always take another look at what I've written and have often found it to be crap. I think being more understanding of one another rather than banning people who dont behave as we would like them to is the way forward. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Big Mick Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:49 PM The crude dude from Chicago would be making a good point were it not for his personal attacks. It is my opinion that we edit the nastiness out of all his posts, leaving only the content that deals with the issue at hand. That, of course, won't happen. I am prepared to follow the guidelines we have. One of those is to not respond to nastiness, not feed the trolls. I will no longer fight back with any type of namecalling, but I will respond to the substantive parts of the dialogue and refute what I disagree with. As a clone, I am supposed to delete personal attacks. Anytime anyone uses personal attacks in a post, I will delete it. Of course that means that I will honor the same rules, regardless of whether it is Shambles, MG, whomever. One thing does occur to me. We waste no time expressing our righteous anger at MG, GUEST of the great North, and Shambles over their posts. In thinking about this today, it occurs to me that is a waste of bandwidth. Why don't we begin to chastise those who respond, and ignore these people? Seems to me that if we create a culture of ignoring, as has been suggested so many times, and develope a culture of telling folks that we don't respond to trolls here, that we would be far ahead. Just some rambling thoughts.......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:01 PM Someone has to go in and read all of that crap and decide to delete it or not, Clinton. The more trolls decide to inhabit Mudcat, the more work for the clones. SRS Some days I think I'd rather clean sewers than have to go through the junk MG posts here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Clinton Hammond Date: 27 Mar 05 - 10:52 PM "and we have only limited means of dealing with trolls" What's wrong with or so hard about deleting posts and banning IP addys??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Mar 05 - 10:37 PM Yeah, Martin - but for what you say here, you could get arrested if you said it in public. You are not a nice person or a civilized person, and I can't imagine that anybody likes you for behaving the way you do. Sooner or later, you will get what you deserve. As for the rest of you who insist on your "right" to respond to flamers and trolls, you just make the situation worse. As long as there are Mudcatters willing to feed the trolls, the trolls will flock here - and we have only limited means of dealing with trolls if we can't get the cooperation of Mudcatters. OK, now that I've told everybody off, I suppose I can expect to be condemned for speaking the truth. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Once Famous Date: 27 Mar 05 - 04:43 PM Are Shatner threads intentional stupidness, Amos? Or on-going whining about governement? That can be intentional stupidness. Get my point? And "intellectual porno" is also something judgemental. Otherwise, some of what you say makes some sense. There will always be a reason for someone getting pissed off about something or someone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Amos Date: 27 Mar 05 - 04:31 PM I suspect that the self-defined limits of author's responsibility taken on by Max (and Joe) is to build the forum mechanism as best they can. The responsibility fo evolving a culture here is that of each individual. Each of us builds with what he has. Some build with simpering self-pity and some with scathing flames and derogation of others. Some use four-syllable words and some use four letter words. Each of us is branded by the language we post by; once that Submit button is hit, we've added our piece to the commons and it reflects who we are, or at least who we were, whether we like it or not. Demanding more intervention is much less interesting than exploring how each voice can raise the general tone and increase the ratio of harmony to dissonance. Even the Supreme Court believed that redeeming social value was a fair criteria to use in dampening the freedom of speech against what was seen as abuse. I would suggest that the challenge to you is to see how much redeeming social value you can add in every sentence you write, whether through creative humor, compassion, erudition, literary style or anything else that adds value to others in the community. I have an opinion that this excludes intentional stupidness, which strikes me as intellectual porno; but that may be just me. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Once Famous Date: 27 Mar 05 - 04:14 PM Rich M Why not ban all books you don't like, either? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Clinton Hammond Date: 27 Mar 05 - 03:31 PM "it's time that the mudcat owner and his minions get off their collective asses and ban jerks" It'd be a pretty lonely place if that was the only criteria for banning... But yes I agree... any other message board worth its salt out here in the world wide waste is moderated... Why not mudcat? We've read Joe say, time and again, he doesn't want the job of Moderator... So give it to someone who does... What's the point of having rules if they're not going to be enforced? And while yer at it, fix/upgrade/CHANGE the POS chat app! :-P heh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: RichM Date: 27 Mar 05 - 02:30 PM GUEST (27 Mar 05 - 11:06 AM) has expressed it well; it's time that the mudcat owner and his minions get off their collective asses and ban jerks like the foul mouthed Chicago buffoon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 27 Mar 05 - 02:23 PM Now, how did I know he was going to say that? Farewell forever -- Diogenes |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Once Famous Date: 27 Mar 05 - 02:15 PM [bleep] (for antisocial behavior) Don't let the door hit you on the way out Dog-Breath. Anyone know who's going to win in the final four? Go Illinois!! Anyone know who's going to win in the final four? Go Illinois!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: The Shambles Date: 27 Mar 05 - 01:29 PM MUDCAT VOW |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Clinton Hammond Date: 27 Mar 05 - 01:19 PM Blather blather blather... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST,Diogenes Date: 27 Mar 05 - 01:17 PM I suggest that everybody "take the pledge." The main function of the Diogenes persona here has been to gadfly the resident foul-mouthed abuser. This, unfortunately, merely gives him something to respond to, and it obviously gives him great pleasure (attention, any way he can get it). Therefore, to deny him this, and in the hopes that others will henceforth pay him no heed so that he will find himself cut off from that which sustains him, I feel that my existence here is counterproductive. Therefore, I cease to exist. I spread myself upon the wind and fade into the ether. going >}POOF!{<gone. . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 27 Mar 05 - 12:59 PM Let he and she who have not sinned, Georgiansilver. That post of yours is troll bait, pure and simple. See what some of us mean? No, of course you don't. You don't believe you could possibly be part of the problem, do you? The trollers and flamers are always "those people" you assign blame to indiscriminately, without any critical view towards who is truly at fault for the state of the forum today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Georgiansilver Date: 27 Mar 05 - 12:53 PM Hey flamers and trolls...you have a whole thread dedicated to you. Why? Best wishes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:33 AM Here, here Shambles! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: The Shambles Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:29 AM But those people whose goal is to feed on making people dance won't get sustenance from me. If only this was finally going to be true.....*smiles* Censorship on Mudcat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: jacqui.c Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:22 AM I have got into the habit of simply scrolling past posts put up by a certain number of people as I know that it is likely that they will be offensive and will not add anything to the thread discussion. I feel sorry for the type of person who lives such a joyless life that their main form of entertainment appears to be upsetting others anonymously. These people are basically cowards, throwing out insults in an area where they feel safe from retaliation and I agree that DNR is the only sensible way to deal with them. Why give them the recognition that they seek? I would hate to see the Mudcat deteriorate into some sort of pissing contest between idiots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Once Famous Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:22 AM Can't fool a fool, Guest Can't deal with it? DNR. I will still write my opinions anyway and you know you will read them. I've long said that I have no ego for discussion or debate. It's not worth my time here. But ones like you should always know that there is a different opinion that can be stated stronger and with more feeling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:18 AM You fool no one, Martin. No one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Once Famous Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:15 AM Hi Guest. You are right. Most of the problems are caused by the self ordained Royalty here like Big Mick and some others who cannot deal with the fact the others have different opinions than theirs and express them differently. Sometimes the radicals just can't deal with something more radical than themselves. Maybe they set the tone themselves with their philosophies and when they are told that it can come across like bullshit in a way that has impact, they just freak out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:09 AM But high quality judicious moderation works much better, and makes for a high quality discussion forum. Ignoring trolls and flamers doesn't--it just makes the shit you have to wade through to get to the good stuff, deeper and more odious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: katlaughing Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:07 AM Well said, Jooddarlin' and Mick. Thanks gnu. DNR - as a medical acronym ala the recent tragedy in FL or as "do not respond" they both work for the Trolls & Flamers |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: GUEST Date: 27 Mar 05 - 11:06 AM Well said, John Hardly. However, in my experience in this particular forum (and I participate in other much better moderated forums than this one), the responders are a worse problem than the original flamers and trolls. IMO, the forum owner and his proxies (ie Joe Offer & the clones) are the true guilty party here. They are the only ones with the power to change the atmosphere in the forum through forum moderation. Those who post here as members and guests simply don't have that power. So the whole argument of self-control is misleading and manipulative. It rewards the bad behavior of the "in group" while demonizing guests, all in a ploy to make people not notice the man behind the curtain who claims to be the Great and Powerful Oz. No matter how much or often the thinking is reinforced by the forum authorities here that guests are the problem, it has always been the members that have refused to get in line and behave decently, and the forum owner and moderators who have refused to do the job of judicious moderation of those members. That is the dynamic that has dragged this place down into the gutter it has become--protecting and allowing people like Martin Gibson to keep posting here, and protecting and allowing the members to respond to posters like him angrily, just to prove how right on they are in "defending the forum" or "pointing out what a jerk he is" etc ad nauseum. In any other reasonably moderated forum, people like Martin Gibson are simply cut off, along with stupid and idiotic "angry response" posts by people with anger issues (like Big Mick). Of course, the hordes will come crashing in here to flame my post now, because I've named names and criticized the forum owner and his authoritarian proxies. So be it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Alba Date: 27 Mar 05 - 09:59 AM I also was reading the FAQ section that made it clear how to deal with said persons. I too thought about posting it on a Thread but..... I too understand the irresitable urge to go in after Person/s have verbally abused People that over the Years you have come to know and respect and in a lot of cases became very good Friends with. When the target of the venom is yourself and the post is based on Lies it is very hard not to rebuff the slime that created it. Some of things that have been posted lately have been so nasty that I question the mental state of the Poster/s and the cruelty attached is just bewildering! I miss so many of the longtime Members who have just given up trying to start threads that were always truly interesting/hilarious/touching and who now have virtually stopped posting. That to me is the saddest part of all:>( Thankfully though some still do....phew..thank goodness) I am, and will continue to be convinced the DNR is the only way to allow the Mudcat to move beyond the Vicious attacks and the cruel abuse of Membership that certain Person/s find such pleasure in. That is my personal approach but sadly I think that as the times have changed, the need to address certain issues/posts differently on the Forum is here. It goes with the climate in the outside world. The Time are truly changing..(nod to Bob D) That decision, of course, is not mine to make...I am a member not a Moderator and can understand the difficulties attached to this! In my early days on the internet I found myself in a site called "the Fray". I was shocked at the abuse there and quickly left ( keep in mind I am a Glasgow Wumin and it takes quite a bit to raise my heckles.....Honestly). However now, somedays at least, it seems the Cat is even nastier than the worst days on that particular site!!! I will of course keep coming to the Mudcat. There are too many great Musicians, Writers, Friends, kindness, support and freely given Education for me not to. Somedays though it is difficult to see the Woods for the Trees....so to Speak. On those Days....well.......shudder There are too the MANY People on the Cat really to mention that I have come to care about over the Years. To the Friends that have become a part of my daily Life because of this Place...I love Ya... I just hope that any newcomer doesn't take the impression of this place from the Flamers/Trolls that would stop them from joining If I can be base for just a second I say F***k these sad B******s who find pleasure in dishing out S**T and painful remarks to get their mini ego trip. Do Not respond.....regardless......the effort is fruitless and just think of the songs/stories you could be writing by channeling that energy elsewhere:>) Love to all of you that I have had the honor to meet here over the Couple of Years I have been around, may our Friendships grow and flourish and may the negative energy shrivel and die...allowing the Cat to grow into an even stronger Forum than before...I sincerly hope a solution to this is found soon. Sorry to rabbit on but...if it is in your heart let it sing...:>) ..and harm thee none Brightest Blessings Jude |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: John Hardly Date: 27 Mar 05 - 09:31 AM I said it a long time ago, but... I think that the reason it is so easy to fall into the trap of responding to flames and trolls is that it is so hard to develop a mindset, an understanding, that doing nothing is doing something. If you can get your mind around the idea that the worst thing that can happen to anyone posting on a forum is NO RESPONSE (there is even a thread currently -- one of dozens such threads -- lamenting being the death of a thread -- creating threads to which nobody responds)....anyway, if you can get your mind around how much it bothers you when nobody responds to your posts, then you might begin to be able to resist the temptation to respond to a troll. NOT responding is getting revenge. Nothing bothers a troll more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: Big Mick Date: 27 Mar 05 - 09:04 AM Actually that wisdom is found in many threads and posts, gnu. Joe distilled the conventional wisdom down to a very succinct piece of wisdom. Your post and PM speak volumes and I agree. By way of explanation, there are many of us from the really neat days of Mudcat. We get so angry over certain folks that take pleasure in tearing down the thing that we were part of building, the thing that has spawned so much good, and so many friendships. And eventually we break and start attacking. Sometimes I look at my own posts and wonder what the hell I am doing, yet I watch these folks keep up what they do and I get angry and respond. I was thinking about starting a thread like this, but I am glad you did. I have pretty well decided to ignore all provocation and ignorance, and just go on with my normal posting. I am not going to respond to certain posters at all. My wish is that others will quit responding as well, but given how hard this will be for me, I know it is too much to ask of others. I have seen one of these monsters even make light of one of the most personal tragedies that a person can suffer. But they do these unspeakable things in order to receive a response. I am not going to give them what they want. That is not to say that when something is untrue I won't respond. It certainly won't stop me from engaging in debate on issues. But those people whose goal is to feed on making people dance won't get sustenance from me. Mick |
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Subject: BS: Dealing with Flamers and Trolls From: gnu Date: 27 Mar 05 - 08:40 AM The title of this thread is taken directly from the FAQ thread for new members (click on the second button from the right on the nav bar at the top of the page). In the FAQ thread, Joe wrote, "I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it many times more: the best way to deal with both flamers and trolls is to ignore them. Give them silence, and they'll go away. They feed on attention - don't give it to them." When Joe wrote, "...I'm sure I'll say it many times more...", he was understating. I'm not asking for discussion and I won't post to this thread again, except to refresh it so it stays on the board for a few days. |
