Post-Colorado Frenzy II

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Chet W.
Date: 10 May 99 - 10:52 AM

Leprechaun (and all), Thanks for your answer and for not taking offense, and mostly for enlightening me on some things I didn't know. I, too, have been called a racist by students when I had to seek discipline for one of them (like every prison, most of our inmates are black), and it hurts like hell. I try to consider the origin of the motivation behind it, which is years of experience of real racism but also a large dose of case workers, most of whom probably mean well, telling my students that whatever they did was none of their responsibility, rather it was caused by society, etc. Unfortunately, some of these people do not mean well. We have lately had a social worker and a teacher recruiting for the Five Percenters (a drug gang posing as a religion that preys on young people in prison and when they get out they have them selling drugs on the street, thinking they are doing God's work).I made a report to my principal about it and was shortly transferred to a less desirable teaching position at an isolated facility. The code of silence exists among our administrators as much as in the worst cop movies on the subject. I too have found sensitive, very creative, and very intelligent kids behind their gangsta exteriors. But I always explain that their actions are their responsibility, and it may take a long time and a lot of work to put it behind them and have a life. Unfortunately again, most of them would rather believe the absolutionists. I know that a lot of communities are fractious and, regardless of their rhetoric, have not the slightest interest in fairness. But we have to rise above this. Teachers and cops and the rest of us have to be better people than this, and capable of being held to a higher standard. A code of silence, wherever it takes root, is a terrible thing that causes much hurt and sometimes irreversible damage and it must be opposed. I know that the Rodney King tape, where 20 cops stood and watched 3 or 4 commit a horrible felony, and then said nothing before the charges came, is an extreme example but it is what people see and remember. Got to make this sort of thing stop!

Your colleague, Chet W.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: leprechaun
Date: 10 May 99 - 12:40 AM

Chet - In my locality I have seen police officers get fired on several occasions based on complaints from other police. I can only remember once where the termination was the result of brutality. I can think of two others who were terminated or forced to resign for misconduct, as opposed to incompetence. I heard about a cop who was terminated before I came on some fifteen years ago, who was fired for lying in court. One of the people I went through the academy with was terminated before the end of the academy for breaking a rule and then lying about it. I can recall several other occasions where the complaint, (officer initiated) was a lesser offence which resulted in discipline. I personally have never encountered an abuse so blatant I had to become part of the internal investigative process. I believe there is a code of silence in some places, but there are several former cops, and many more who have had to face discipline in my county, who would have to admit that the police can and do police themselves. In my opinion, we consistently hold ourselves to a higher standard, and much of the discipline currently imposed would not occur if we had a fair and impartial citizen's review board. However, in this fractious community, a fair and impartial citizen's review board would be nearly impossible.

On a few occasions I have expressed concerns individually to other officers when I thought an arrest or citation was "skinny," something likely to lose in court. Generally, we know that every time we lose a civil or criminal case, the criminals only get stronger and bolder. This tends to make us very circumspect, not only with regard to investigation and arrest, but in use of force situations as well.

On several occasions, I have witnessed verbal abuse which could have resulted in discipline if the citizen had complained. For instance, during a traffic stop of a person (he was trolling for hookers) who was on parole for Sodomy, the driver got snotty with the officer who initiated the stop. The officer, normally a fairly well-controlled person, said something like, "You don't tell me how to do police work and I won't tell you how to sodomize people." (Cringe, cringe) It shut the guy up and he never initiated a complaint. Had he done so, I might have been contacted by an investigating supervisor, and I would have had to tell him what the officer said. If there had been a complaint, the officer who made the comment would have admitted to it without reservation.

Several years ago, at an out-of-state training class, my friends met two cops from another state who were blatant racists, and perhaps we have them here too. I'm pleased to be part of a police culture in which racism is something abhorrent. In my department racism is not tolerated by either the brass or the line personnel. If there are racists, they keep their dirty little secret hidden, because it is something to be ashamed of. Still, there are those who never pass up an opportunity to accuse each of us, and the department as a whole, of being racists. I bet katlaughing's daughter is the furthest thing from a racist you could possibly find, but if she becomes a cop, she will regularly, though never in good faith, be called a racist just for doing her job.

I've had the alternative media accuse me of racism, theft, and "arresting people because of the way they look." That last part is true in a way. I have arrested people because of the way they look. I've arrested them because they look exactly like the person who sold us drugs a few days before. Of course they get on the public access channel with the anti-cop group and say they never sold drugs, the cop stole their money, and they were singled out because they have long hair. I suppose I could get on the same channel and show the video I have of them actually selling the drugs. But I prefer not to do that until I have to. You see, we take the video from somebody's house or business, and if this gang knew about it, they would vandalize the places or threaten the people who offer me an observation platform.

There are several officers I work with who have lateraled in from larger departments in big cities. They have horror stories of cops indicted for robbery, extortion, and murder. I don't know any cops who wouldn't jump at the chance to put somebody like that in prison.

In my old dictionary, the definition of demimondaine included "society's fringe," of which I proudly proclaim myself a former member. I grew up in a poor neighborhood, and I had some wild times before I decided to become an adult. It left me with a more rounded perspective, which helps me in my job. I think it makes me more empathetic.

And Tucker, before I became a detective I rode a police bike, and I found it a very effective means of catching "johns" and prostitutes in the act. The people in that poor neighborhood, where I grew up, whose names I know, were very grateful and regularly applauded my team when we arrested the johns and the hookers. The women in that neighborhood got real tired of having men drive up to them and ask them if they were looking to "party." I would estimate that three of the eighty or so prostitutes in my city are cocaine addicts. The rest, every single one of them, are heroin addicts. So every time some guy drives through the neighborhood and picks up a prostitute for twenty dollars worth of sex, (sometimes they even check the prostitute's arms to make sure she has track marks, and therefore, is not an undercover cop) he's contributing twenty dollars to enrich the heroin and cocaine dealers who do everything they can to keep these women ensnared. (that's what I call entrapment) I have many horror stories, and a few, very few, successes with getting some of these women out of that lifestyle.

So Tucker, (and I'll say this hoping we can still be friendly) if you had streetwalkers and drug dealers hanging out in front of your house or business, would you think that was just fine? Maybe you would. But most people don't.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Night Owl
Date: 09 May 99 - 03:56 PM

This is more BS...skip if you choose! Someday, I may learn how to be articulate!... and say what I'm thinking and feeling BRIEFLY and CONCISELY. (So, I apologize for not being there yet.) I've been reading the "Post Colorado" threads with interest as they have been helping me more clearly define for myself, what it is that I think,..about pre-teens, and teenagers, increase in violence etc. Prior to my current profession, I worked intensely with "run-away" teens...at the time known as "street kids". "Running" away from their families, from foster homes, or from institutions in which they had been placed. At the time I was too busy dealing with crises to be reflective, (and too young myself,) but because I wear my "heart on my sleeve" and often got lucky to be in the right places at the right times, I was able to break through some tough bravado exteriors and discover scared, hurting, SENSITIVE, artistic human beings, who had been ostracised/ridiculed/violated.. by family, at schools, whereever.. and they had quickly learned negative ways to protect their basic sensitive,natures. Some of these kids were from "decent, well-respected" homes with "good" parents. I remember thinking at the time, that the poverty of the spirits I was seeing, was worse than the worst of the financial poverty I was working with. Even though the outside influences on these young souls has dramatically changed...become much more violent, videogames, guns readily available...etc. I don't believe the basic instincts of a child's quest for internal identity (and how they fit into the "world" around them) has. I don't know what the answer is, except that there is an age, when we make decisions about what the world around us is....and how best to survive in it. I think the decision may be as simple as, either we decide, at that age,to arm ourselves for defense to the hurt(which includes initiating violence/aggression)...or to remain open, with ALL its risks. I do know that boredom is an enemy, and after dealing with the "hurts" and getting the tears out, it was amazing to me to see what could happen, when time was taken to discover a child's passion and find a positive outlet for its development and exploration. (For kids who had already heard all the words and were too defensive to listen any more, I used music or animals as tools to break through those cold exteriors.) I WISH I knew what it was/is I'm trying to express....but something like....even though the exterior influences have changed....the internal spirit of a human being has not...regardless of which culture/age it finds itself in.

As if I haven't said enough already.....twice as a "mature" adult, I've cried openly at receiving public thank-you's for my work...and even though its more accepted for a woman to cry, I have carried my feelings of embarassment since. After reading the last few posts here, I think I'm proud that I cried in public!!!

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Margo
Date: 09 May 99 - 12:32 PM

I've seen my dear husband cry twice. Once when he got cold feet about getting married (three months after we met) and the other when he had to have his dog put down. I can come to tears fairly easily, but when Jack cries it is significant and precious.

Margarita, who loves her Jolly Jack (no tar)

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: bbc
Date: 09 May 99 - 08:25 AM

Folks,

I've got to step in here w/ spellcheck. Roger, I loved your post, but I don't think it was very nice to wish a "plague" on Chet for his hard work. I feel a new thread coming on--"Mudcat Bloopers"!

love,

bbc

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Tucker
Date: 09 May 99 - 02:30 AM

Rick and kat, Hillary has been Prez,ya just didn't know it.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 May 99 - 01:50 AM

Oh, Rick, I think it might too monumental a task, unless we can interest him in those tiples! At leat it would give him something to do with his hands, besides fumble!

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 May 99 - 12:57 AM

Kat, I think she's got her sights set on eight years from now. By then Bill will be living in a bordello, and playing sax in an "Oldies" band. Maybe he'll become a Mudcatter! You'll have to teach him how to search for songs.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 May 99 - 12:52 AM

Sure, TuckMudder, I agree (now there's a conundrum!). Rick, you're right. Hillary SHOULD have been Prez!

katl

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Tucker
Date: 09 May 99 - 12:50 AM

Kat, you are always my buddy. I don't think we will ever agree about Bloody Bill Clinton, (History will prove me right)but we are mudcatters, friends and lovers of song. We agree to disagree sometimes, ok?

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 May 99 - 12:46 AM

If I can jump in Kat and Tucker. Mr. Bill has at times made me quite sad. I suspect he deals with his erections the way a great many powerful men do (of all political and vocational stripes) but his recklessness has damaged many people, and not just his family. There is no excuse for a man in his position to take those kinds of chances, no matter how exciting it must have seemed. Nor for the agressive nature that some have talked of. I am not a "Clinton basher". I believe he could have made serious strides in bringing some diverse areas of your country together, and being a fine speaker, he inspired trust in a lot of people. When he CHOSE to make his sex life public, through these risky assignations,(cause let's face it, the media can find out ANYTHING today) He broke a lot of hearts. Whoooah! Didn't mean this to get heavy. Just wish Hillary had given him a huge kick in the cojones in 1975!

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 May 99 - 12:34 AM

Oh, TuckMudder, I think blaming him for Yugo is a simplification. Bill is NOT NATO, alone! And, cynic that I am, I have a hard time believing he has done much of anythng, on his own, or that hasn't already been done before. I really don't want to get into a political battle since writing columns about a lot of it is what I do during the week. Politics is all about power and I do not believe any one president ever has so much power with complicity on the parts of others. That, and media manipulation make me wary of any claims I hear. I know that sounds liek a contradiction for me, since I am part of the media. I like to think I try to use it in a positive way, but of course it IS according to my beliefs and "agenda", but HEY! at least I am willing to admit it! Still yer buddee, tew!

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 09 May 99 - 12:32 AM

Chet, I hope there comes a time when you don't feel you have to turn away so they can't see your eyes filling up. Those are tears of joy and gratitude and I hope you can learn to share that with your students (especially your students). There is too much in our society that says "No" to manly tears and I stand against the words that "men don't cry."

I work with the drug users in Baltimore City and they are predominately African American and a group with some horrible records of deeds against society from rape, to robbery, to murder. It all comes with the drugs. They were raised to believe men don't cry. But as they recover from their addictions and make the broad lifestyle changes necessary to maintain that recovery, most find it essential to learn to cry. They also proudly see the ability to cry as an important part of living life on life's terms.

Last year I received a plague from a group of patients for care beyond the job description. I felt very honored and very grateful for the recognition and I cried like a baby. Couldn't of hid it if I wanted to, and I wouldn't have wanted to.

I wish the same to you, Chet, for I know your heart is full when you get blessings from your students.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Tucker
Date: 09 May 99 - 12:18 AM

Kat, with Bloody Bill I wish it were just a zipper problem, I could laugh about that, but people are dying by the neighborhood and bus loads in Yugoslavia by his orders and now the Communist Chinesse have our weapons technology because of his fundraising antics. Talk about gun control, we need Bill control, the man is very dangerous. I believe history will bear me out. Still your lovin buddy, tuckmucker

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 May 99 - 12:01 AM

Oh, TuckMudder, big, big doo-doo! I don't think I'll touch that one. We are too far apart on even what the issue is, I believe. I'd would say the only thing about President Clinton is that he was stupid enough to get caught. Men have been having problems with their zippers, esp. men in power, since gawd knows when; it's nothing new and I think our nation is full of a bunch of political hypocrites. They were all just ecstatic that it was him and not them, who was being , ahem....exposed.

katlaughing, liberally

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Tucker
Date: 08 May 99 - 09:51 PM

Thank you Margarita, God Bless

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Margo
Date: 08 May 99 - 09:43 PM

I'm with you, Tucker. Margarita

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Tucker
Date: 08 May 99 - 09:35 PM

Hi All,ya know I always got something to say. One, my daughter and her beau are teachers. I am concerned for their safety needless to mention. I taught her firearms use and safety as a child and that's enough said. She has one, keeps it locked up, but other wise doesn't care one way or the other about them, like most folks. Heaven help any would be assailant into her home though. The lady can shoot. Second, my heart goes out to all the family at Littleton School/Columbine. Since Columbine is my favorite flower and grows in my garden I think of those children and that coach whenever I am in my yard. If only we could recognize madness in it's infancy. We could have stopped Mao, Stalin, Hitler,McVey and Nichols,Bundy, Manson on and on and on. Sometimes we do see it and do nothing, as is the case of the deputies in Littleton, sometimes we complacently obey laws that are wrong, like the Nazi gun control laws of 1933, and wonder why we find ourselves standing naked on the edge of a ditch facing a machine gun. Decent people don't kill other people. Maniacs can kill people, in masses, a varity of ways. I have avoided going into that for fear some nuts might read our site here. Even if we have total control by government of our every action there will always be nut cases, rebellion,out of sorts reactions. My personal opinion is that it's not gun availability but all the asinine crap available at the video store and in the movies. I saw Air Force One. Folks, I was a soldier, but I was revolted by the portrayal of the villian shooting the young lady point blank in the head. Come On! Our kids are watching this crap! We don't need it. That is not ENTERTAINMENT unless you are a roman and enjoy watching people die in an ampitheather. Let's go beyond this ok? Tell Hollywood we won't accept this, let's enforce our existing laws, let's be civil to everyone and let's show the world that the United States of America doesn't use our armed forces to cover for a man who can't keep his zipper up. See, I promised I'd PO a lot of folks, but that's my opinion

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: bbc
Date: 08 May 99 - 08:48 PM

Chet, I know just what you mean. Often, I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall, trying to communicate things that *I* think the kids need to know, w/ little cooperation or respect. This past week, I had *two* compliments from parents--one, that the woman's daughter was frequently saying good things about me & the second, from a volunteer in my library who says things now are a big improvement over last year (This is my 1st year in the school.). Both really gave me a boost in morale (important w/ the springtime high spirits of the students!). The teaching & the parenting go hand-in-hand. Keep up the good fight!

best regards,

bbc (school librarian in NY)

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Chet W.
Date: 08 May 99 - 07:35 PM

You know I'm a teacher, and where, if you've been reading these. Every once in a while I get a thank you from a student, sometimes written down, sometimes face to face. I'll have to say it breaks me up. I have to turn away so they won't see my eyes watering. Those are the things I'll remember about being a teacher after I've forgotten everything else.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 May 99 - 11:40 PM

Nice to see ya surface, Joe.

My brother substituted at the high school here, yesterday and today. He wishes the media would focus more on the positive things that kids do. Yesterday the student council spent their own money in an appreciation buffet for teachers and counselors. There was a huge spread of all kinds of good foods, plus balloons that said 'thanks, teachers and counselors". This meant a lot to all of the educators.

Today, the advanced Spanish class he taught had a fiesta and at the end of class, made it a point to thank him for being their substitute. It touched his heart and made him feel so much better about himself. These kids need postive reinforcement, not only from parents and educators, but also from the press. If enough kids hear about the good, then perhaps they would want to emulate THAT glory, rather than the glorification of violence they see everyday.

kat

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 99 - 11:27 PM

I have to say that the impact of the killings did not really hit me for the first tow weeks. I was kind of detached from it, and it seemed like just another news story, maybe a bit more sensational than others.
But then I came to Denver this week. The other night, I went to the park next to Columbine High School. This was more than two weeks after the killings, but the park was filled with rows and rows of flowers and notes and signs and stuffed animals that people had left in an attempt to pay tribute to the victims. You could look on it all as a bunch of tacky junk, but it brought me to tears. Thousands and thousands of people had gone to that park and left at least a small token behind, in answer to their feeling that they had to do something to respond to the tragedy.
The killings were an awful thing, and I think I'm now beginning to understand just how awful. The hysteria that has resulted in our schools is also something terrible. The simple memorials that people left behind in the park are a reminder to us all that there is also a lot of good in humanity. I hope that our response to this tragedy will make us all a little better.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 May 99 - 11:06 PM

Bet, if the Blue Jays played in your park, with your altitude, we'd be scoring fifteen runs a game. Oh shit. I forgot about our pitching. We'd be giving up sixteen!

That's good that they did the song. Wonder if some other teams might also open a game with it? It would be a strong gesture.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: bet
Date: 07 May 99 - 09:12 PM

Wow! They just opened the Rockies, Phillie game with the song the family wrote for the Columbine shooting. Columbine, Friends of Mine First home game after the shootings. bet

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 May 99 - 09:00 PM

Dear bbc, if you are feeling that you want to leave this thread because you're just plain tired of it, and don't feel you have anything more to contribute...fair enough, but I'd hate to think your reaction is connected in ANY way by the "bs" comment. As you no doubt have gathered, the vast majority of mudcatters have come out on the side of intelligent discussion on issues that affect ALL of us. We are a community that has come together because of music, but the glue that holds us together is made up of many ingredients, not the least of which is the sharing of personal thoughts and situations. Some are hilarious, and some, trying, to say the least, but they are all valid and make the community strong.

A couple of things to consider: There's always LOTS of music to discuss, and...if you check back a few months you'll find that inevitably the "flame throwers" shoot one blast, and then disappear, leaving cooler (and fuller) heads to douse the flames...and you must admit, it gets interesting!

rick

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Tucker
Date: 07 May 99 - 08:53 PM

Aye folks, and then you see a tv show such as cops where the police seem to actually enjoy breaking in the homes of people and separating children from parents, or setting up "johns" (entrapment, if you ask me). Sorry Leprechan, there's enough real crime out there that needs taken care of. Stupid crap like the Portsmouth Police did the other day (drug bust with battering rams while wearing T shirts that said " we make house calls""). Come on! Let me tell you a few cop things I have seen lately I DO like. I like seeing cops riding bikes in my neighborhood, meeting the people, knowing my name, saying hi once in a while. Everyone on mudcat knows I enjoy my right to own firearms, but I like it when my local police have concelled rather than open carried large caliber firearms. Allow me to tell you why. Many times, as an EMT we arrived to a volitile situation, and diffused it only to have it go helter/skelter when the police walk in screaming with their sidearms in their hands. Our society has to stop being hipocrites. We show children video games of violence and then blame the NRA, our movies are terrible, our radio music tells kids to kill cops. Jesus Christ! I used to watch Zorro and wanted to sword fight. You think that our children are different? But instead of Epee's and Sgt Garcia now there are DC Tech 9's and Propane and fertilizer bombs. Children (and some adults) emulate from this crap. Lep, don't get to hard set that you can't learn from the rest of us ok? I want to respect and like my cops. I know that you guys see the worst part of humanity every day, but remember , when you do it's like working in a complaint department, you're seeing the worst things. You signed on for it, so learn to get out and see the better side of humanity. I know that cops have a heart, pass it on.

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: bbc
Date: 07 May 99 - 08:29 PM

I'm afraid I feel the need to jump in w/ 1 more post on school frenzy in my area of the U.S. Just heard on the news yesterday (Thurs.), that one of the area high schools had put a new policy in effect, in an effort to safeguard against bombs. They have put chain locks through all of the lockers, so that no students can use them for the rest of the year & they are requiring all students to carry their books in see-through bags. I am curious to see how many of these things are just a fear reaction & will blow over in time & how many will stand as policy. Although I have the impression that we enjoy more personal freedoms in the U.S. than, perhaps, in other countries, I think this is a trend which should concern us. The balance between personal freedom & public safety seems to be shifting in rather significant ways.

BTW, I think this will be my last post on this thread. It has been very meaningful & helpful to me & I am honored that it has been made a 2-parter! If this is in the "BS" category, I guess I am not a music purist. Nonetheless, it is not my desire to offend any, so I think I'll back off, at least for awhile.

best to you all, my friends,

bbc

Subject: RE: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Margo
Date: 07 May 99 - 07:36 PM

You know, if you want to relate this to music, you could look at the various sea shantys that depict the captain, mate, bosun in various lights. Some of the ships were hell to work on because there were those in a position of authority who enjoyed lording it over their underlings with physical and verbal abuse.

Then there were the captains who were loved by their crew, kind but firm and fair. It seems that things haven't changed much.

Chet, I love your above sign off: Friends can disagree. I always try to disagree without being disagreeable!

Margarita

Subject: Post-Colorado Frenzy II
From: Chet W.
Date: 07 May 99 - 07:00 PM

Leprechaun, As a teacher in the Juvenile Justice system here, I meet and work with a lot of law-enforcement people, and I do generally sympathize with your feelings and your reaction to some things that were said BUT I think everybody, including you, will admit that there are in fact quite a few "bad apples" that make the big majority of honest decent cops look bad to the public. I also believe that the "code" of never calling down a fellow police officer, even a very bad one, does exist; I've seen it in action. Since you are yourself an experienced police officer, and obviously a thoughtful and decent one, you must have seen or heard about a fellow officer at some time in your career that went too far, maybe way too far. Did you or any of your colleagues do anything about it? Was there a report made, or even a tip to an anonymous hot line? I'm not saying you haven't, but I'd really like to know.

Friends can disagree, Chet W.