BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:10 PM

Some years ago they had an old character on local tv who had a Chevrolet Impala, (not a Vega) and he claimed it had 800,000 miles on it, and he was going for an even million.

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:33 AM

Just a comment on cars in general: If you do long journeys, you burn off the water that gets into the oil from condensation (early mornings and damp conditions) and the cars tend to last to a higher mileage.
If you do short journeys, that moisture will not be dried out, and will shorten the life of the vehicle. You can help by taking occasional longer fast runs to heat up the oil, and making sure that the thermostat is working properly, or perhaps changing it anyway when you top up the antifreeze.
Another place that water will get in is the brake/clutch fluid. All car manuals tell you to change the fluid at intervals, and no-one does. Very short-sighted. I used to test the drums of fluid in a car assemby plant, and I could measure the uptake after a wet weekend. It is expensive to change brake master and wheel cylinders.

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 10:16 PM

Kendall, you beat me to it on the ethical issue.

Lady Hillary and I have 4 cars between us. My Villager has 165K, the Celica has about 150K and may be restored to operating condition; the Toyota MR2 has 120K and the little old lady car, an 88 Mazda has all of 83K.

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:12 PM

Richard, I take it you are in the UK. Yep, there is a cultural difference with regard to vehicles if that is the case.
There are a couple of XC90's in my neighborhood, very fine vehicles but more money than I would spend- in any case Uncle Dave wants a large sedan (saloon in UK-ese?), which the Park Lane is. Very comfortable if one is out on the highway for any length of time, for 6 full size passengers or two kids plus dogs and their gear.

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:49 PM

There is an intersting cultural difference here. Of course when I talk about Volvos I mean the 740 series and the 940 series and previous. I am used to people asking me why I want to drive a car the size of the Ark Royal (or to US readers, the Missouri). Most women refuse to drive it because it is too big. It comes as a shock to have people dismiss a Volvo (at least one of that ilk, not the Fords now badged as Volvos) as "too small".

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: kendall
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:53 PM

, any new car dealer I ever knew had a problem you won't believe. Even though it is all the same company, there are different parts of it. For instance, the sales dept. sells the cars and the service shop repairs whatever needs doing before the car is delivered. But, the service dept. charges the sales dept. for whatever work they do, and they don't get a discount either.
If you trade in an old clunker, the sales dept. puts it on the back lot and when the wholesalers come around looking for stuff they can steal, that old clunker is often lumped into a group of other wholesale pieces, and the wholesaler has to take the junk with the decent ones.
Why is it ok to palm off a dangerous death trap on a dealer when it's not ok to sell it to a private party with a caveat?

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:23 PM

Uncle DaveO mentioned major repairs coming up. This means the car will have little street value unless you trick some sucker- which many of us are too honest to do.
A dealer, with his stall of mechanics, can handle the repairs cheaply (no mark-up, remember how a business handles costs and taxes, etc.) and get the vehicle to his sales lot. For a car needing repair but cosmetically good, a dealer can give a decent allowance.

His choice is, of course dependant on his (wife's) preferences. The Park Avenue is comfortable, roomy, well-built, excellent on the highway, built much like the full-size Cadillac, and has lower maintenance costs than foregn vehicles like Volvo.
A somewhat equivalent Volvo to the Buick Park Lane is costly (S80 about $60,000 new, base price here). Not a common car, so used ones are hard to find.

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:39 PM

McGrath:

Yes, I could have said 80,000, or 120,000--or 200,000 for that matter.

The point of my initial message was the cost/mile approach to cost comparison, not a recommendation of how long to keep a car. My own experience leads me to start getting nervous after 100K, so what I was looking to purchase was the use of a car in the intervening time.

Frankly, in the past I've often kept a car a good bit longer than 100K, as witness the 119,000 on the Caddy I traded in, or the 108K on my B.W.'s LeSabre. I don't put any stock in how many calendar years there may be on a car, but the miles I'll be driving it is what's important to me.

I picked 100K as the earliest I personally would want to change cars next time. YMMV. Literally.

I agree with Q that one needs to pay attention to the condition of each of the candidate vehicles. In my case, the car I bought was a one-owner car, originally bought in Indiana, with the history of consistent regular and frequent service at the same respected dealership where I bought it, with a clear Carfax report. For me, that was convincing enough that I didn't feel the need to take it to my own mechanic. Again, YMMV.

Kendall, yes, selling the Caddy might have produced more than the trade-in. But I knew of a threatening condition in the Caddy, and personally selling to a private buyer would have caused me an ethical problem about disclosing that lurking demon. Adding to that just the hassle of arranging a private sale and so forth, I was happy enough to accept the trade-in offered, which was right on the button of what I expected.

As to Volvos and their ilk, my B.W. was wanting a larger car than those tend to be, and also we emphatically didn't want the center-floorshift-on-an-island format, which was present on so many of the cars I looked at on the web, including Volvos.

Q, I'm in Indianapolis, and the web search found me nine Park Avenues within 25 miles of my ZIP code which might have been acceptable. Whittling away the two most distant got me to seven, and one of those was with a dealership I didn't want to do business with. The cost/mile approach got the remaining six down to three, and we bought the first choice of those.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:34 PM

100,000 miles used to be an automobile's life expectancy. They seem to be making them to last longer these days. European manufacturers like Volvo had been making extrememly durable cars for years, and when the Japanese became serious competitors in the tionernational market, they really upped the ante. I believe that Detroit had to finally come around, just to remain competitive, and nowadays ~ assuming routine maintenance ~ most cars ought to last well beyond one hundred thousand miles.

Of course, if six figures on the odometer is when you're ready to cut loose of one car and start anew with a newer one, so be it.

Regarding the question of whether or not to trade-in: it should be obvious that you can save money by selling the old car and then buying the new one without factoring in a trade-in allowance. But with the trade-in option, you're paying for convenience and liquidity, and many folks consider it worth the cost.

There's no way you can guarantee finding a buyer on the very day that is most convenient for you, and then taking the purchase price to a dealer to buy your replacement auto. You need enough cash in reserve to make your purchase without a trade-in and without the proceeds for your sale of the old car.

Plus which, trying to sell a car is a pain in the ass. Letting a dealer take it off your hands on the day you drive off the lot in your new(er) car is a convenience that many consider to be well worth the loss of however much more money they might have cleared by the sell-and-buy procedure.

Finally, if your old car is really old and worn out, the thousand-dollar credit given as a trade-in (that seems to be the minimum figure these days) may indeed be as much or even more than any private buyer would give you, even after you go to great efforts to sell, extending time and effort, fielding fruitless phone calls, buying classified advertising, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 12:07 PM

Richard--the problem with the "high mileage" cars like the Volvo is that they are all imports, and part and repair costs are high-- when the cost of repairs and parts exceeds its resale value, it's not worth running any more--

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:41 AM

Get a Volvo. A rear wheel drive with the redblock engine will do 200,000 miles without much trouble. The volvo owners clubs tend to have "high mileage" clubs and you don't qualify until your car has done half a million miles. The high pressure turbos are brisk. A pointy-head can make them REALLY quick. Lots of room for the labradors in the back of the estates too.

If you get a later model automatic, don't let bush mechanics work on them. You have to twiddle with a thing on the side of the gearbox underneath before revving the engine in Park or Neutral unless you want to kill the autobox.

The earlier ones with the Borg-Warner box do not drive as well but do not have this problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: kendall
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:38 AM

Don't forget, when you trade cars, they are not giving you anything.They allow you so much off the top, but you are far better off to sell your old car and offer the dealer to reduce the amount you got from the sale.Show them money and they will deal.
Cash, no trade will give you a better deal. Ask yourself, what will he do with my old car? More than likely he will scrap it because he can't resell a used up clunker.

Of course, this mostly applies to old cars with little life left in them.
So, money talks, bullshit walks. Keep this in mind when the dealer asks, "Do you have something to trade"? He doesn't want you to know the true value of either car.In this case he must add in the cost of getting rid of your old trade in.

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:10 AM

Surely the ratios would stay the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:54 AM

So why 100,000 rather than 80,000 or 120,000 was what I meant. Change that figure and all the other figures change too, and you'd be likely to end up with a different car coming out top.

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Newport Boy
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:21 AM

Domestic approval is very important, as evidenced by this advert for a bike from a Johannesburg paper.

"This bike is perfect. Only done 7,000 kms. No faults or scratches. I use it as a cruiser/commuter. I'm selling it because it was purchased without the proper consent of a loving wife. Apparently 'Do what the fuck you want' doesn't mean what I thought."

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 10:57 PM

He plans on trading when the car has hit 100,000 miles.

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 10:32 PM

That diagnosed big expense coming up, I agree, means it is time to get another car. My point is, to be sure a car is 'acceptable,' a mechanics evaluation is a big help. Nothing wrong with costing out which of the acceptable ones is the best buy if you are lucky enough to find more than one.

In 60 years of driving, I have had a variety of cars. All were used, from one year to a few years old, except one I bought new when I made a lucky guess on the stock market (1972 BMW CS, my son still has it). Only one bad one, a smaller Japanese model on which the motor blew after I had it for about a year.
I have an inlaw who has an older Park Avenue, and had one previous to it, and never had any serious problems. She also was able to find good used ones. Her tastes must be similar to yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 10:14 PM

Where did the figure of 100,000 come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 09:56 PM

Q, I agree with what you say about a car you might already have, but in this case the Cadillac had a BIG expense just lurking there, waiting for its time. If it caught up with me, the car wouldn't be worth what it would cost to fix, and I'd suddenly be without that car, without the thousand dollar trade-in, and in a tearing rush to get another. And then there's the fuel usage and cost of premium fuel for the Caddy. And then the big one: My Beautiful Wife wanted a new car!

I told her, "'A new car', meaning 'a new car', is just not in the cards, kid. But we'll get a nice newer car."

That's where the calculation came in, figuring which of several otherwise acceptable cars would be the best deal.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 03:47 PM

An appraisal of condition by a mechanic you trust would, in my mind, trump such calculations.
My mechanic says my 1995 Cherokee is good for more years (I bought it as a lease release in 1996 and had it checked by him). May be by 2012 I might look for a replacement.

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 02:50 PM

YEah. No matter how many engineers come up against the problem, there is none who has figured out an Excel rationale for the "marital-approval units per dollar spent" workbook, or the smiles-per-mile factor.

;>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 02:38 PM

Calculations of that sort can be quite revealing for many different uses.

When I was moved to Seattle some years ago, the realtor I was talking to asked for a detailed description of how I came up with the figure of $840 per mile, for the added amount I could pay for a house, for each mile shorter the commute from its location. At the time, it worked quite accurately, but of course a recalculation would be needed now to account for both interest rates vs fuel costs, etc.

It seemed that simple arithmetic amazes lots of people who should know how to do it - and often is most amazing to the ones who should know how to do it well.

The bottom line though always ends up being "is she happy with it," so sometimes the most accurate calculations falter a bit.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 01:59 PM

That's an interesting way of figuring out the true costs, Dave. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Alice
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 12:57 PM

I was looking online for reasons to lease rather than buy. I may lease my next car. Not sure yet.

Subject: BS: Buying used car-- Cost/mile
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 12:08 PM

I just changed cars, and figured out a system (not necessarily original with me) for comparing the value of cars I was considering buying.

THE BACKGROUND FACTS: My Beautiful Wife and I have for years been great fans of the Buick LeSabre. She is currently driving our fourth LeSabre. We wanted to buy a LeSabre to replace our 14 year-old Cadillac DeVille, which had high fuel/high cost fuel usage and also some incipient front end trouble which would cost more to fix than the vehicle was worth. Trouble is, in 1999 or so the LeSabre was changed, downsized, and we instantly rejected the 2003 LeSabre we test-drove. But the logical successor is the Buick Park Avenue. So off to an online car locator source, in this case Autotrader, where I located six Park Avenue possibilities in the Indianapolis area. I ran Carfax reports on all six, and their histories and reported conditions were all satisfactory.

My plan was (and is) to drive the "new" vehicle until 100,000 miles, and then change again.

The candidate cars I found ranged from a 2000 Park Avenue for $8,977 with only 55,000 miles to a 2003 Park Avenue with 61,000 miles, as I recall, for about $13,700 or so. I didn't really care about what the model year was; I was interested in the miles to be driven between the present and the planned 100K trade-in point.   

So I did the subtraction, 100,000 less present miles, and sorted the cars in descending order of the result, what I'll call "bought miles", the measure of the real use I expected to buy. For this purpose I ignored my present trade-in and the eventual trade-in value when I change again at 100K.

Now I divided the dealer's asking price in each case by the respective bought miles, resulting in a cost-per-bought-mile ranging from 21 cents to 39 cents, and ordered the cars in ascending order of cost-per-bought-mile.

I found that the least costly three cars (by asking price) remained the three least expensive, but that the lowest-price vehicle, the 2000, now moved from number-one to number-two position.

So my B.W. and I looked first to a 2002 Park Avenue with 61,500 miles. We were impressed with it, and decided to look no further. The price had just two days before been dropped from about $13,500 to $10,977. Given the car's ranking on the cost-per-bought-mile test and the recent substantial price cutback, I didn't even try to dicker, but went on to consideration of trade-in of the Cadillac.

Kelley Blue Book and Edmunds both estimated the trade-in value of the Cadillac as about $1,250, based on my describing its condition as "fair". I told the salesman that I had trade-in value reports from those two organizations, and waved the printouts, but didn't disclose
the figures. He looked at whatever reference they use and made a quick airplane guess of $1,500! However, after looking at the Cadillac in detail he cited some body damage which he said would cost around $500 to fix (and I entirely agree with him there), and offered me $1,000. That's fine; that's just the number I had told my B.W. beforehand that I would look for and accept. So we had a deal.

So now we're the proud and pleased owners of a one-owner, well-maintained 2002 Buick Park Avenue Ultra (which means supercharged), with all sorts of bells and whistles, such as multi-CD changer, leather seats, built-in garage door opener, sun roof, rear bumper proximity sensors, and on and on. No longer will I have to buy premium gas, as I did with the Cadillac, and the miles per gallon are A LOT better than the Cadillac's mileage, too. I figure the gas cost alone is going to save me about $25 a month.

But, aside from exulting about my new toy, I wanted to share the cost-per-bought-mile approach, which I merely stumbled upon, and which is novel to me.

Dave Oesterreich