Dick Miles jazz singer

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:01 PM

Oh bother. I wrote a carefully considered response to the Captain's 11 Feb 08 - 11:58 AM posting but it seems to have got lost. I wonder what I said. I'm not sure that I care anymore.

Anybody heard Whalley and Fletcher's version of Dylan's Lay down your weary Tune? Wonderful.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:47 PM

As for the wee drummer we tempered his pow
And made a football o his row-didi-dow
And kicket it in to the ocean to row
And take a bit bathe in the morning.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:55 PM

As Rod Steiger said in No Way to Treat a Lady, its doesn't mean you're not a nice person sweetie!

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:15 PM

I would be Happy to pay money to see in a folk club the Original Carter Family ,Leadbelly,Jimmie Rodgers,Blind Lemon Jefferson,Roscoe Holcomb,Clarence Ashley,but not John Lennon.
I may not be able to define what is folk music,but I have my own ideas[Subjective] ,as to what it is in a performer ,and his performance of songs, that makes him a Folk Singer and I do not see/hear that in Lennons work.
Lennon was a skilled songwriter and performer,so was Nat King Cole.
I have never been moved to sing any of their songs,and dont regard them as Folksingers ,neither do I regard myself as a Rock OR Jazz or Reggae singer.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 04:37 PM

Mr Guest-Silence, I think it is up to you to provide us with something more diverting than Dick's insights into the validity of John Lennon as a folk singer. Until then, Dick holds us spellbound.

I always thought John Lennon was a folksinger. Played a guitar, sang through his nose, they sing his songs in folk clubs.....he could easily have been mistaken for one - without Dick's timely reminders!

Just because you don't really care about how the folk revival develops! You monster of indifference! Ask yourself - did Ewan MacColl die in vain? Do you want to see Martin Carthy's family without a job?

Show a sense a of proportion! A cottage industry is at stake.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 12:09 PM

'I dont think JohnLennon is a folk singer and I wouldnt cross the road to see him'

It must be nice to be a psychic. You could sort of 'cross the road' and see all sorts of people unavailable to the rest of us. I'd 'cross the road' to meet Miles Davis.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:58 AM

that is not my position,
my position is that John Lennon is not a FOLKSINGER [Subjective opinion],I have never said that I object to anyone singing a JohnLennon song,in fact I said,that if I was booked at a club I would applaud,Iwould only give my opinion if I was asked.
I said I would not pay an entrance fee at a folk club to hear an evening of John Lennon songs[that is what a JohnLennon [Tribute /Impersonator IS]
a floor singer normally has two or three songs,IF he /she sings a Ray Davis song,a John Lennon,and a BobDylan song,how can they be aJohnLennon IMPERSONATOR.
they are probably not very interested in traditional music,which I think is sad., considering the wealth of tradional music that there is.
Please stop trying to twist my words

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:30 AM

no,I am not prepared to pay to sit ,through an evening of JohnLennon songs ,different thing all together .

Indeed it is, and something nobody but you has suggested.

I dont think anyone visitng my site could seriously call me a Ewan Maccoll impersonator

Of course you aren't Dick. I was just trying to point out the absurdity of your position that anyone who sings a John Lennon song is a John Lennon impersonator and that someone who sings one John Lennon is going to spend the entire evening doing nothing else.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 10:44 AM

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail - PM
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:57 AM

very funny.

Just following your own logic about anyone who has the temerity to sing a John Lennon song in a folk club.
no,I am not prepared to pay to sit ,through an evening of JohnLennon songs ,different thing all together .
http://www.dickmiles.com I dont think anyone visitng my site could seriously call me a Ewan Maccoll impersonator,My style is my own,my repertoire is ninety five per cent traditional. DickMiles

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:57 AM

very funny.

Just following your own logic about anyone who has the temerity to sing a John Lennon song in a folk club.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:06 AM

haSubject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail - PM
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:16 AM

Dick, I see that you say you have said that you have sung Ewan MacColl's "Sweet Thames". We don't book Ewan MacColl impersonators. I wouldn't want to listen to a Ewan MacColl tribute performer all evening so no booking I'm afraid.
very funny.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:16 AM

Dick, I see that you say you have said that you have sung Ewan MacColl's "Sweet Thames". We don't book Ewan MacColl impersonators. I wouldn't want to listen to a Ewan MacColl tribute performer all evening so no booking I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 02:02 PM

Everybody is very welcome to sing my songs.
I keep making it quite clear that I would never stop anyone from singing a song.[my own included].
Legally,PRS forms should be filled in either by the organisers or the performer when performing other peoples material,be it.[I am sure Lewes folk club is aware of this] Lennon/Maccartney or Dick Miles.
personally, I am only concerned about being given credit for the songs I have written.
when I refer to impersonators, Iam talking about tribute performers /bands.
as I havent died and am still performing,Ithink it doubtful if there are any.
there are plenty of Beatles/Elvis tribute bands,I would not turn up to see them at a folk club,nor would I turn up to see someone singing an evening of John Lennon songs.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 07:14 AM

Pavarotti,Westlife. BritneySpears ,John Lennon impersonators are absent.

So are Dick Miles impersonators, which, under tha Captains's definition, is anyone who sings a Dick Miles song.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:13 AM

Sussex Carole.
Lewes has two folk clubs both of which are successful,which would indicate that Folkclubs when run efficiently, will be well supported [,both of their music programmes are what most people expect at folk clubs] . Pavarotti,Westlife. BritneySpears ,John Lennon impersonators are absent.
however it is impossible to avoid labels altogether.
here are another few examples.Cotswold morris side,youwould expect to do Cotswold Morris not american line dancing ,or Rapper.
now If I turned up and they were doing Rapper,I probably wouldnt have minded because I like both,but I do not like American Line dancing,so in those circumstances Iwould be pissed off.
the problem is that despite everything[the 1954 definition etc] how we define Folk music involves a considerable amount of subjectivity.
that is why I dont feel I can answer your question Snail.Iknow what I think is folk music ,but I cant define it.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 09:35 PM

Oh dear, I really can't be bothered.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:33 AM

missing line, should read I do believe I am a FolkSinger.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM

my music is not normally classified as Popular

That makes it folk music?,the material I sing is generally considered by most as folk music because:
95 PERCENT of the songs are classified as Traditional.[and fall within the 1954 definition]
when I do a gig ,there are a small proportion,perhaps two songs that may occupy a grey area as regards classification,that if I think are appropriate I might include.
That is different from doing a whole evening of my own songs,.
I consider that the material I do best is traditional material.
if someone requests a self penned song, I might do it.
but you cant escape labels,the label Martin Carthy means something,as does the label Cleo Laine,neither one is really an acceptable substitute for the other[although they are both [imo]very good],should one be not available through illness to do a gig.
if Ihave bought a ticket to see Pavarotti it is not unreasonable for me to ask for my money back if the organiser has substituted Westlife or Britney Spears.
I am not concerned about what anyone else does in a folk club,but if I dont think it is folkmusic [subjective] I will not go.
I dont think JohnLennon is a folk singer and I wouldnt cross the road to see him [subjective opinion]
I am not a Jazz Singer I do not sing Jazz material neither do I sing in a JAZZ STYLE .iDO BELIEVE
when I am employed to perform at a folk club. I try and listen to every singer regardless of their material,for many different reasons

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 08:47 AM

Just sing as & what you will, enjoy what you do and stuff the people who insist on putting labels on who we are & what we sing.
Thanks Carole.
I do enjoy what I do,and I never attempt to stop anyone else singing what they want.
I reserve the right to decide what I will pay for at a Folk Festival/ club.
and I would not be prepared to listen to a whole evening of John Lennon songs at a Folk club.
Nor would I pay to see Westlife at Ronnie Scotts JAZZ CLUB.
Its a question of degree,And thereare always grey areas with labelling,
CarterFamily, Jimmie Rodgers,are they country are they folk,probably both[but maybe to someone else they are one or the other]
Iwould find acceptable at afolk club,
Britney Spears no.
I do not expect a rap singer if Ihave paid to go to a classical concert.we cant escape the necessity for some labelling.
if you dont like labelling stop calling Folk clubs Folk clubs call them Acoustic Miusic clubs.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: SussexCarole
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 09:47 PM

I think I've lost the will to live after trying to follow this thread! So here's my support to the clubs & singers (especially the Lewes Arms) who share the music I enjoy. Folk/jazz/whatever music would be suffocated and die if purists have their way! Just sing as & what you will, enjoy what you do and stuff the people who insist on putting labels on who we are & what we sing.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 09:03 PM

my music is not normally classified as Popular

That makes it folk music?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 06:50 AM

It's a pity that we (or you for that matter) won't be able to sing any of your songs in folk clubs because they aren't folk songs.
   The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.
I know for a fact Battle of Bosworth Field has been changed.
2.my music is not normally classified as Popular,although some people in Folk clubs might like it[that does not mean it is popular music].
you can sing what you like ,but dont expect me to pay to see it,
although I suspect that if your repertoire is similiar to the guests you have booked ,I wouldnt have a problem.
by the way it is a fair while since I have been booked at your club.
I also do Concertina workshops[song accompaniment,ornamentation]must be 10 years since I have been booked at Lewes.[Faint heart never won fair lady].Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 05:07 AM

Dick, you seem to be in denial about the things you said earlier in this thread and there's no point in reminding you again. You don't seem to have taken in much of what I've said either.

It's a pity that we (or you for that matter) won't be able to sing any of your songs in folk clubs because they aren't folk songs.

Good post Rowan.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 04:30 AM

We may not know much about folk music but we know what we like.Quote Snail.
Exactly
And as I said before I have never stopped anyone singing anything in a folk club.
we know what we like,I know what I like,and what I want to hear in a folkclub.
and that determines who I go to see at a folk club,I pays my money. I choose.
I do not choose to go and see any one singing John Lennon songs,nor would I choose to see Pavarotti,Westlife,Britney Spears,.
That is my choice BECAUSE I would not enjoy myself.
Folk Festival /club organisers determine who is booked and who is not.,
this may or may not take into account audience requests,depends on the organiser[I have never been booked at a certain club despite various people requesting me]Thats life.
By no stroke of the imagination could I be described as a Jazz Or a Rap performer,or an Opera Singer.and in my opinion[SUBJECTIVE]John Lennon is not a Folksinger,but a rock singer, and I would not pay money to see him[Ifhe were alive] or an impersonator, in a folk club.
40 years ago,maybe,but these days,other people excite me more.
now I am off to play some music[not rock].Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Rowan
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 11:32 PM

Definition of Folk Music ,decided by the International Folk Music Council in 1954.
Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.

I'm a bit wary of getting caught in the crossfire here and Mudcat is littered with uncountable (and often unprofitable) threads and comments on this topic. But the 1954 definition is succinct and relatively objective (groan!) so a couple of swift bits addressing it might be worthwhile.

The first part of the definition (in italics above) seem to excite no particular dissension in most discussions, although there are comments about media which do. Leaving them aside;

The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.

Notions of "rudimentary" that might have been acceptable in 1954 are unlikely to be so regarded now that most cultures have demonstrated that none of them is correctly describable as "rudimentary" or primitive. Nobody can securely describe "beginnings" where authorship is unknown and no author is likely to accept description of them as "rudimentary". Given the progression of literacy in most communities (especially those communicating in various forms of English) I suspect it would be increasingly difficult to find examples of living traditions that remain unwritten. They might be more frequent in communities with less reliance on English in its various forms but anthropologists and ethnographers are working to minimise even these by writing them down and recording them.

The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."

This para seems to be the one that most exercises Mudcatters and (to me) appear to be at the root of the 'back & forth' between our two protagonists. None of the critical terms in this para ("popular", "community", "re-fashioning", "re-creation", "folk" or "character") has an objective definition that is widely accepted even in Mudcat, let alone elsewhere. These days, its inclusion creates more heat than light and I seem to recall various stories about the 1954 conference participants that suggest it created more heat than light even then.

Deleting it is no worthy answer and I can't think of anything to modify it that is not similarly subjective; I'd reckon nobody else could either. Like almost any classification system I've ever come across in various disciplines, the form of the classification is largely determined by its function. Many of us have such widely divergent functions for putative classifications that no one system will be acceptable for most, let alone all.

C'est la vie! Vive la difference!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 07:41 PM

Is this, then, the only music that can be performed in Folk Clubs?that is for fok club organisers[like yourself] to decide,
and you do this through your booking policy,and also through your choice of residents[,youchoose your residents upon the material they sing and how they perform it]

I could quibble over the details of that but one thing I'm damn sure of, we never ask ourselves or our guests, "Does this material conform to the 1954 Sao Paulo International Folk Music Council definition of folk music?". We may not know much about folk music but we know what we like.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:32 AM

Is this, then, the only music that can be performed in Folk Clubs?that is for fok club organisers[like yourself] to decide,
and you do this through your booking policy,and also through your choice of residents[,youchoose your residents upon the material they sing and how they perform it]
Acoustic music clubs are different again,so are Jazz clubs.
I will respond later to your second question,as I have to dash.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: GUEST,Darowyn
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:27 AM

I would simply remove the last sentence.
"The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."
A lot of songs enirely suitable for performance in Folk Clubs have been written since 1954, and they work just as well whether performed in a 'Stars in Their Eyes', 'tonight I'm going to be Ewan McColl', style or thoroughly folk processed , usually by failing memory inmy case, into new style. Removing the last sentence would remove the cause for the preceeding argument.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:17 AM

Is this, then, the only music that can be performed in Folk Clubs?

Quoting myself -

My question is, how does it apply differently to songs by John Lennon from how it applies to songs by, for instance, you.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:03 AM

Subject: Isthe1954defining,improvable
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:51 AM

Definition of Folk Music ,decided by the International Folk Music Council in 1954.
Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.
The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.
The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."
Is this definition open to improvement,and do you have any suggestions as to how it can be improved.Dick Miles
Snail,voici, mon escargot.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 08:55 AM

Oh Dick, I can't keep quoting your own post back at you. Go and read them for yourself. You made authorative statements about what is or is not folk music, about what should be played in folk clubs and what audiences (not just you) expect to hear.

if you provide the 1954 definition

You invoked it not me. It seems that it is only freely available to academics not the hoi-paloi -
Definition of Folk Music - Maud Karpeles

My question is, how does it apply differently to songs by John Lennon from how it applies to songs by, for instance, you.

Toothpaste?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 08:16 AM

what I am prepared to discuss,if you provide the 1954 definition is how it can be applied to modern songs such as John Lennons,with the proviso that the 1954 definition[has flaws and is not perfect]but is the best definition that is not subjective.
This is Different from, What I expect to see,when I go to a Folkclub as a paying visitor[because thats my subjective feeling],which does not have to be logical but can be emotional.
An example of illogicality, but emotional gut feeling,is the use of Traditional music for toothpaste adverts.It could be argued that getting traditional music to people who have never heard it before must be agood thing,.
but in my opinion using it as an advert for toothpaste demeans it.
logically this argument can be defeated,but it still doesnt alter how I feel[subjective emotional],in the same way turning up to pay to see someone at a folk club is subjective[emotional],not necessarily logical.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 07:16 AM

It's a long, long way from Cork to here.

Why raise subjects you don't want to discuss?

Enough!

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 06:41 AM

I tell you what,I would be happy to discuss the matter over a pint somewhere,but not here and now.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 06:34 AM

From your second post to this thread Captain -

However if John Lennon can be described as a folksinger,then I can decribe myself quite inaccurately as a Jazz singer.
when I go to a jazz club I expect to hear Jazz,not Dick Miles singing Tam Linn,or Paul Maccartney singing Yesterday,or Sharon Shannon.
when I go to a Folk Festival, I do not expect to hear Westlife.

which sows the seeds of what we are talking about.

Why are you so reluctant to answer simple questions?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 04:47 AM

Subject: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:51 PM

here is my jazz cyberspace version,of John Cages 4 minutes 33.
you are off topic, Snail.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 07:25 PM

Captain Birdseye

being pursued by a belligerent Snail, is rather like being savaged by a dead sheep.

You started this thread Dick. Just asking simple questions. Can't understand why you won't answer them.

Andy Caven performs Buddy Holly material.

So?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 07:00 PM

being pursued by a belligerent Snail, is rather like being savaged by a dead sheep.
Andy Caven performs Buddy Holly material.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:04 PM

What the £@%$&*%£$ has Andy Caven got to do with this discussion?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 05:36 PM

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 10:12 AM

Iam not laying down the law,
I am telling you what I am prepared to pay for at a folkclub or Festival,and that if you book, JohnLennon/BritneySpears impersonators.I will not be there.
If I happen to be booked at a folk club I would not stop anyone singing anything.IF I heard someone sing a Beatles song I would clap politely,If they asked my opinion on their performance,and they had performed it well,I would say so,
If they asked my opinion on their material.I would suggest tactfully investigating traditional material[simply because there is such a wealth of good songs amongst it].that is very different from stopping people singing songs,this is indeed Ironic to be thus accused ,because it is the very reason I never went to the Singers Club ,
I have a book entitled the Sailors Dream,self penned modern songs available from my website. http://www.dickmiles .com
Andy Caven is pretty busy[last I heard],plenty of gigs,I doubt if he has the time to do a floor spot at Lewes,I think he lives in the midlands[bit far really?]

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 04:15 PM

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 03:21 PM

Bryan Creer - short, fat and hairy!

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 03:15 PM

Andy Caven - slim, blond and athletic!

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 03:15 PM

If he'd like to come and do a floor spot I'm sure we would consider him although it sounds as if he might be a bit dependant on PA and we're a pretty crustily acoustic club with honourable exceptions such as Carly Blain's electric piano and Bill Whaley's midi concertina.

By the way, what IS your meaning of a "contemporary folk song" in a formal, Sao Paulo 1954 style definition rather than just your subjective opinion?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 02:47 PM

Andy Caven - singer, guitarist, songwriter, entertainerAndy Caven - singer, guitarist, songwriter, entertainer. Available solo or duo for parties, pubs, festivals... Rock 'n' roll, blues, folk, love songs.
www.kidmenthal.co.uk/andy_caven/index.php - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

RMC (Riley, Marfleet & Caven)Picture of Andy Caven, Paul Riley and Paul Marfleet. RMC are currently undergoing an operation to remove their new album from their collective grasp and ...
www.kidmenthal.co.uk/rmc/index.php - 11k - Cached - Similar pages
More results from www.kidmenthal.co.uk »

Snadbach Folk Club, Andy Caven, John James, Rod Eccersley ...Andy Caven. Andy Caven. Andy was one of the first guests ever to be booked unseen and proved to be worth the risk as he entertained with a lively set of ...
Google him,and find out,hes been on the folk club scene for over 30 years,and you have never heard of him.typical.,that says it all.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 01:56 PM

P.S. Who's Andy Caven?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 01:53 PM

Captain Birdseye

I am telling you what I am prepared to pay for at a folkclub or Festival,

No you aren't, you are telling us what you think the audience want -

my point is that we have to have accurate labels,so that an audience knows what to expect

They were Folk Music lovers they paid money to get into a Folk club

and what is or is not folk music -

it may or may not be the case that Lennon Macartney will be sung outside pubs in 60 years time,that will still not make them
folksongs unless they have been altered in the folk process.

Lennons songs may/may not be good but because they havent been folkprocessed,and until they are they will not be folksongs

Someone who sings a John Lennon song is no more a John Lennon impersonator than someone who sings a Ewan MacColl song is a Ewan MacColl impersonator or someone who sings a Dick Miles song is a Dick Miles impersonator. They absorb and adapt and make the songs their own.

If I happen to be booked at a folk club I would not stop anyone singing anything.

I should hope not, it would be a bit embarrassing to get thrown out of a club when you were the guest.

If they asked my opinion on their material.I would suggest tactfully investigating traditional material[simply because there is such a wealth of good songs amongst it].

I'd love to see the response. How would you react if someone said that to you after you'd sung one of your own songs?

Thanks for the free plug for the Lewes Arms Folk Club. I think we have a programme to be proud of. I don't know if any of them will sing John Lennon songs but I can guarrantee that quite a lot of them will not be traditional and some will not have gone through the folk process because they will be sung by the writer.

allowing a floorsinger to sing a Beatles number

What? "allowing"? We don't demand playlists or give auditions to our floorsingers.

actually booking for 90 minutes someone singing that material,which clearly you dont do.

I have never suggested we would, not least because nobody is doing it.

the power to decide what music is performed lies with the organisers

No it doesn't. If I may borrow a line from you, you have some nerve,trying to portray me as some kind of musical dictator. Our only power is to choose who we book. We cannot dictate to them what they will do nor can we control who is going to ask for a floorspot. (We allways try and get as many on as possible.)

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 11:27 AM

FEB 2 TOM & BARBARA BROWN (www.umbermusic.co.uk/default.htm) (£5)
Deeply rooted in Cornwall and Wiltshire, Tom & Barbara sing with wonderful warmth in harmony, unaccompanied & with concertina, melodeon & guitar.

FEB 9 ZOOX (www.zoox.co.uk/) (£5)
Linda Game's dazzling fiddle, Jo May's intelligent percussion & Becky Menday's bassoon, whistles & saxophone infuse energy & invention into new melodies, traditional tunes & songs.

FEB 16 MERIDIAN (www.walshaw.plus.com/meridian/about.htm) (£5)
Richard Jones (accordion) Chris Walshaw (bagpipes, whistles, flutes) & the beautiful singing & fiddle playing of Anna Tabbush combine to make an evening of fine songs & lively dance music.

FEB 23 DON & DIANE MORGAN (£4)
Traditional & new songs, including some of their own, solo & in rich vocal harmony. A few readings & a dash of humour make a warm & stimulating evening.

MAR 1 BOB & GILL BERRY (www.wiltshirefolkarts.org.uk/bobandgill/aboutus.htm) (£5)
Traditional & contemporary songs in close harmony & also with concertina & guitar accompaniment from the organisers of the Chippenham Folk Festival, Wiltshire Folk Arts & the Devizes Folk Club.

MAR 8 CAPELLA plus MIKE NICHOLSON (£5)
at THE ROYAL OAK, STATION STREET, LEWES BN7 2DA
Tony & Lesley's distinctive vocal harmonies blend with Mike Nicholson's 99% cocoa solids voice to produce a glorious sound. They haven't decided what to call themselves yet.

MAR 15 Lewes Arms Workshop No 91
ALISTAIR ANDERSON
NORTHUMBRIAN MUSIC FOR ANY INSTRUMENT
Booking forms available from the club & the website
10.45 a.m. - 4.45 p.m. Places £30
Alistair Anderson plays English concertina & Northumbrian smallpipes. He has played with The High Level Ranters, Will Atkinson, Richard Thompson, Kate Bush & the Lindsay String Quartet; he is a respected composer, tutor & academic, founding both Folkworks & the University of Newcastle's traditional music degree course.
IN THE EVENING ALISTAIR ANDERSON PERFORMS AT THE LEWES ARMS
(£6, advance tickets available from the club & the website)

MAR 22 SONGS FOR SPRING (£3)
This is Easter Saturday, so we'll serve traditional Easter biscuits. Bring songs & tunes on the general subject of spring.

MAR 29 ADAM & DIRK CAMPBELL (www.dirkcampbell.co.uk/home.html ) (£4)
Young Adam & his father play keyboard, guitar, & a huge variety of wind instruments & bagpipes from round the world.
This is the the Lewes Arms FOLKCLUB programme[the club the Snail is involved with].
it looks fairly conventional folk music fare,I see no John Lennon /Britney Spears /Buddy Holly impersonators.
There is a world of difference between allowing a floorsinger to sing a Beatles number,To actually booking for 90 minutes someone singing that material,which clearly you dont do.
I bet you dont book Andy Caven very often.
It is Folk Festival/Club Organisers like yourself[not me,I am a musician and perforner]who decide what is sung at venues as a result of their/your booking policies.
you have some nerve,trying to portray me as some kind of musical dictator, when the power to decide what music is performed lies with the organisers.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 10:12 AM

Iam not laying down the law,
I am telling you what I am prepared to pay for at a folkclub or Festival,and that if you book, JohnLennon/BritneySpears impersonators.I will not be there.
If I happen to be booked at a folk club I would not stop anyone singing anything.IF I heard someone sing a Beatles song I would clap politely,If they asked my opinion on their performance,and they had performed it well,I would say so,
If they asked my opinion on their material.I would suggest tactfully investigating traditional material[simply because there is such a wealth of good songs amongst it].that is very different from stopping people singing songs,this is indeed Ironic to be thus accused ,because it is the very reason I never went to the Singers Club ,
I have a book entitled the Sailors Dream,self penned modern songs available from my website.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 10:00 AM

They're only his ideas, which he has a right to. Its not like Dick has executive power over you.

I think the trouble lies not with artists, but rather when Lloyd George Knew my father types (for Lloyd George, read Ewan MacColl) worm their ways into local committees. You end up looking down the bill of fare at most folk festivals and you think, I wouldn't be feeling very festive after seeing that lot for the umpteenth time.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 09:40 AM

weelittledrummer

With all respect, Snail - I do think you miss the point. Dick has a head full of ideas and they define him as an artist. He has a perfect right to those ideas.

Of course, on both counts. I have been a great admirer of Dick for over thirty years and have several of his records. I am particularly fond of "There's no one with endurance like the man who sells insurance".

His ideas seem a little confused and contradictory, for instance -

most people who have seen me perform know that I sing traditional and contemporary folk songs.

as a matter of fact I sing Sweet Thames, I introduce it as a song written by Ewan Maccoll.
no need to say whether it is a Folksong.
neither do I introduce any traditional songs as folksongs.

but that's his problem.

The trouble comes when he starts laying down the law on what can and can't be performed in folk clubs. You must not sing Beatles songs because the audience have paid to hear folk music.

At the Lewes Arms, which is pretty well towards the traditional end of the spectrum, you will hear songs by Graeme Miles, Ewan MacColl, Brian Bedford, Barry Temple, Dave Webber, Sylvia Watts, Lennon/McCartney, Sting.... and poems by Cicely Fox Smith and Rudyard Kipling set to music. You will probably not here Streets of London or The Fields of Athenry.

I expect we would like to sing some of his songs as well but we will never be able to because, until they have been folk processed, nobody is allowed to sing them in folk clubs and if nobody is going to sing them then they never will get processed.

P.S. Sorry, but if Britney insists on the pipe, we can't book her. We had a no smoking policy even before the ban.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 04:53 AM

I have a book at my website, of my own songs.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 01:46 AM

With all respect, Snail - I do think you miss the point. Dick has a head full of ideas and they define him as an artist. He has a perfect right to those ideas.

he has a website, you can the general drift of his thoughts from a quick look there.

Where we differ is that I have always been the weird shit vaguely tolerated in folk clubs. I know what I would have to do to be inside the tradition, but for various reasons choose not to conform. so I am probably seen in the same light as people totally unaware of the tradition who come along and sing Oasis, Damien Rice etc.

Strangely enough by calling himself a jazz singer, I think Dick has had a quick glimpse of life outside the tradition - where the validity of one's work and working ideas are relentlessly called into question and challenged.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 08:17 PM

So it seems I never will find out what the Captain means by a "contemporary folk song".

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:39 PM

Whatever I choose is good enough,because the issue is subjective.
you have more than caused offence, you have put words into my mouth that I have not uttered,.
I find you extremely offensive,and I choose not to discuss with you.Goodnight.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 02:26 PM

Captain Birdseye

I have never stopped anyone from singing anything in a folk club,so please dont try and make me into some kind of folk police.

Dick, read your own posts. You have laid the law down in no uncertain terms several times in this thread that the only music that should be performed in folk clubs is folk music. You have stated clearly that Lennon/McCartney songs are not folk songs and should not be performed in folk clubs because they are not what the audience expect.

what you have written is a personal attack on my reputation.

I am sorry to have caused offence. Put it down to my frustration at your continued evasiveness and refusal to give a clear answer to an honest question.

You said earlier -

my point is that we have to have accurate labels,so that an audience knows what to expect.

I agree nothing is black and white but somewhere there has to be demarcation lines.

Give me accurate labels for contemporary folk songs. Show me the demarcation lines between folk and non-folk contemporary songs.

whatever I choose isn't good enough.

John Connolly is a friend of mine, I consider him to be a good songwriter,and a polished performer.

I heartily agree. We are more than happy to book him (we have) to sing his songs the way he wants to sing them rather than how they've been folk processed by anyone else.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 01:50 PM

John sometimes does some gigs with a bloke who was in the same class as me at scholl - Dave Fletcher. Do you know Dave as well, Captain? You'd like him - he does gigs with a guy playing midi-ed up concertina.

I saw John at the Fylde festival last year, and I got a chance to ask him something I always wondered. I always wondered seeing as he was a librarian in Grimsby, if he's ever met the poet, Philip Larkin who was the university librarian at Hull - just over the water.

Apparently not - although he'd once found a letter on file from the great man. Apparently he signed himself - just with his surname - Larkin.

Sorry, thread drift! Okay teabreaks over - heads down!

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 12:16 PM

So if John Connelly sings Fiddler's Green as he wrote it, it's an art song and he shouldn't sing it in a folk club but if someone else sings it and changes a few words it's contemporary folk and permissible?Quote from Snail.
I did not say this.
What I am saying is that if I decide to go to a folk club or festival,and pay an entrance fee,I expect to hear what in my opinion is folk music ,If I dont like it I would not return again,that would be the case,If Pavarotti or Britney Spears,or a John Lennon/Elvis impersonator were the booked guest.
likewise if Iwent to a JAZZ CLUB,I do not expect to see Westlife
However I would not try and stop anyone from singing.
John Connolly is a friend of mine, I consider him to be a good songwriter,and a polished performer.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 11:48 AM

Snail, his name is John Connolly,
[There you have it folks. If you want to sing a contemporary song in a folk club, check with Dick first to make sure it's on the permitted list.]Quote from Snail.
I have never stopped anyone from singing anything in a folk club,so please dont try and make me into some kind of folk police.
I have my own ideas as to what is a folksong, as I am sure you do.
   I make my living from playing music,you organise or help to organise a folk club.
It is in fact Folk Festival /club organisers who decide who gets booked and who doesnt,it is they who decide what kind of music is available at Folk festivals/ clubs.
what you have written is a personal attack on my reputation.
.I repeat I have never stopped anyone from singing anything,and the suggestion that anyone needs to ask my permission is unpleasant and untrue.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 11:23 AM

Captain Birdseye

Fiddlers Green,has been folk processed words have been changed

So if John Connelly sings Fiddler's Green as he wrote it, it's an art song and he shouldn't sing it in a folk club but if someone else sings it and changes a few words it's contemporary folk and permissible?

Snail.Simple direct answer,whatever I choose

There you have it folks. If you want to sing a contemporary song in a folk club, check with Dick first to make sure it's on the permitted list.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 10:23 AM

Robin,Fiddlers Green,has been folk processed words have been changed jumpers [to blankets].Gentle Annie[StephenFoster]is asong thathasbeen folk processed.
Snail.Simple direct answer,whatever I choose ,and that does not include Norwegian Wood,or any other song written by John Lennon,purely subjective.,
presumably like the booking policy at your folk club,which looks pretty conventional,I see no Britney Spears,Don Partridge[hes local to you]orPaul Macartney.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 08:45 AM

Captain Birdseye

most people who have seen me perform know that I sing traditional and contemporary folk songs

Simple direct question Dick. What do you mean by "contemporary folk songs"?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 08:29 AM

What people generally perceive as folk music is what ends up being labeled as folk music.
Fiddler's Green, for example, is labeled as folk and most people not in the know call it traditional and attribute it as such. Now what would you label it as Dick? It hasn't really had the "Folk process" happen to it but it slips in amongst the 100 per cent traditional items without a murmer from the audience.

Robin

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 02:12 PM

The whole point is that this particular truth is subjective. If thinking you are producing folkmusic helps the creative process - you are entitled to think what you want.

If thinking that Ewan MacColl's composition, or anybody else's song isn't folkmusic helps Dick get on with what he does - he's entitled to think what he likes.

What anybody else thinks is irrelevant. I have noticed that the actual people kicking ass and getting things done creatively, like Carthy and MacColl are actually very broad minded when you talk t o them.

I suppose if you think imposing your beliefs on others will help your vision forward, you are omnce again entitled to think that. But I really do see no possible advantage.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 01:54 PM

as a matter of fact I sing Sweet Thames, I introduce it as a song written by Ewan Maccoll.
no need to say whether it is a Folksong.
neither do I introduce any traditional songs as folksongs.
Snail,I am talking about performers though.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 01:34 PM

Captain Birdseye

Try booking Britney Spears at the Folk club you are involved with,see what the reaction of your regular audience is.
They expect Folk music, and dont pretend you dont know what that is.

I'm not talking about performers, I'm talking about songs. I'd just like to be clear on what you think Folk music is. Given Stringsinger's post, there is no such thing as a contemporary folk song as you claim to sing.

I have heard all the following sung in folk clubs by people who I would consider to be folk singers -

When The Snows Of Winter Fall - Graeme Miles
Norwegian Wood - Lennon/McCartney
Sweet Thames Flow Softly - Ewan MacColl
Fields of Gold - Sting
Fields of Athenry - Pete St. John
Streets of London - Ralph McTell

Which of them would you classify as contemporary folk songs and which not?

Conversley, I have heard Arthur Brown sing The Great Silkie in a folk club (and bloody good he was too) but does that mean that, for the moment at least, it wasn't a folk song because he is not a folk singer?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 10:57 AM

very good WlD,you made me laugh.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 09:04 AM

'Try booking Britney Spears at the Folk club you are involved with,see what the reaction of your regular audience is.
They expect Folk music, and dont pretend you dont know what that is .
I bet not one of your regular audience would turn up.,and furthermore the rest of your committee would say she is not suitable for the Folk club,why?because she doesnt sing folk music and is not a folksinger.Dick Miles'

I'd like to correct you on that Dick. Last time we booked Britney, she gave a terrific show. She was respectful of the dress code (arran sweater, carpet slippers and a pipe); listened to all the floorsingers and gave us a cd for the raffle.

True she was relying on the stuff from her first album; The Weaver and the Factory Maid, Verdant Braes of Skreen, The Trimdon Grange Explosion and Hit Me Baby One More Time. But having said that, she'd agreed to do it for the door and seemed well contented with three quid and a bag of tomatoes. And at least she didn't do any Kate Rusby or Seth Lakeman numbers.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 08:13 AM

Snail,
I will direct you to stringsingers answer on the JohnLennon folksinger thread,If you read that thread you will see that I have already given my opinion and answer[see folk process]Lennons songs may/may not be good but because they havent been folkprocessed,and until they are they will not be folksongs.,this combined with Stringsingers answer,explains why they are just popular songs.
Try booking Britney Spears at the Folk club you are involved with,see what the reaction of your regular audience is.
They expect Folk music, and dont pretend you dont know what that is .
I bet not one of your regular audience would turn up.,and furthermore the rest of your committee would say she is not suitable for the Folk club,why?because she doesnt sing folk music and is not a folksinger.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:43 PM

No, guys, it wasn't a version of a known song! I would have recognised any of those. I don't think this even WAS a song at all - it wasn't metrical enough. Hazy recollections lead me to believe it (at least the opening part) was based on a Gaelic air, which are often quite free in rhythm - and whatever it is the announcer said when introducing it reinforced this impression. So I don't think song titles are going to unearth it because it wasn't that sort of music. It's probably locked away in perfect digital clarity somewhere in my subconscious memory-vaults, just tantalisingly out of reach.

The other thing is, I think this was some very old track from an early recording. It was broadcast on BBC Radio 3, and they often used to play specialist things like that. I have a feeling it was from the 78-RPM era.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: curmudgeon
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:03 PM

Bonnie, the piece you're thinking of may well have been Leadbelly's "Kisses Sweeter Than Wine," which he claimed to have derived fro an Irish song. The original was probably in dorian mode, which being an unfamiliar form, he moved to a minor key.

Pete Seeger has recorded this with the Weavers also - Tom

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 07:44 PM

Captain Birdseye

most people who have seen me perform know that I sing traditional and contemporary folk songs

What's the 1954 definition of a "contemporary folk song" and why couldn't anything by John Lennon, Britney Spears, Barack Obama... qualify?

Bach and Mozart were acoustic in their day and probably still are in most performances.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:08 PM

Was it Simon & Garfunkel?

;-)

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Rowan
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:01 PM

Be careful Dick! I forget the details but I recall someone else issued some recorded silence and Cage's representatives sued, successfully, for breach of copyright. And Happy Birthday!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 04:14 PM

No, it was some music that was actually original Irish or Scottish, IIRC, which is what blew me so away. They played a minor-key air which started slow, and later went upbeat and morphed into something else, perhaps in a major key - I'm not now sure. You can recognise a standard blues format, and this wasn't one! I also don't think it was symmetrical enough to be a song of the type that SJI is (which I would have known anyway).

This was before 1987 (I remember where I was living) so time has done its usual trick of erasing while you're not looking. Wish I could be more use -

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 03:30 PM

Best of luck with all this labelling.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: MartinRyan
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 03:27 PM

Bonnie: St. James Infirmary?

Regards

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 03:01 PM

My thread was interrupted should read, They were Folk Music lovers they paid money to get into a Folk club,they did not expect to hear me sing, Doggy In the Window,or a Mozart Opera .

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 02:55 PM

they are all people.They wereFolk
C and W Clubs are called just that[youdont expect to find Pavarotti performing],so are Jazz Clubs[would BritneySpears be performing there No],Classical music concerts are not described as Reggae and neither would you find Reggae being performed there.
Acoustic music clubs,are just that,and anyone that plays acoustic music should be welcome.
when I open a tin of Baked Beans that is what I expect to find,I do not expect to find tinned Strawberries.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 02:19 PM

I always feel its that confluence of c and w and folk that makes Irish music that much stronger and more people based. You do get a fair bit of country songs in folk clubs. And after all Doc Watson sings I recall a a gypsy woman.

Also, I recall and Irish lady country singer singing that Peggy Seeger song about the mother singing to her child, about the Dad who's away from home digging up motorways in England. And given the number of Irish people who worked on the motorway - the song actually had more resonance being sung by an Irish lady, than when Peggy sung it.

I accept that all these demarcations do matter to you, but I don't know why. I've always loved folk music, but I never made a living from singing it - I had to play music people liked and they could connect with easily.

At the end of my career, I do wonder now. Why were your people folk; and the people I was singing to, just people?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 12:55 PM

yeah of course blues [which is a form of American folk music],is one of the mothers/fathers of jazz.
I agree nothing is black and white but somewhere there has to be demarcation lines.
My kind of music would not be acceptable to most of the punters in a Country Western club,they want C/W,not folk,not jazz[possiblywestern swing excepted].and in folk clubs and folk festivals,we dont expect Opera or CW,Although Bluegrass might be acceptable now and again.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 07:12 AM

LOL !!

I once heard - on Radio 3 of all places, back in the old days - a Dixieland trad jazz band playing something that the announcer said had been influenced by traditional Celtic (think that's the word he used) sources. And damn me, it WAS too. Fascinating sound, minor key, started slow and then wound it up. I can't remember much more about it except that it really, really worked. And they were a straight New Orleans trad outfit, not a "fusion" band.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:50 AM

Cage stole the tune from a traditional source.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:35 AM

Bonnie.I asked Joe Offer that one.At first I thought it had been deleted.
Its his forum[so I will make no further comment].
WLD,I like Yesterday,in fact I recorded it on one of my lps [without the words,as a concertina piece,but as I said earlier, I consider it an art song.
my point is that we have to have accurate labels,so that an audience knows what to expect.
If you went to Ronnie Scotts jazz club,you would not expect to see Pavarotti,Westlife,or Geoff Wesley.
it may or may not be the case that Lennon Macartney will be sung outside pubs in 60 years time,that will still not make them folksongs unless they have been altered in the folk process.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 02:57 AM

Sharon Shannon sings Yesterday, you reckon. And Westlife and Paul MaCartney.

You know that's a great song. In a few years time, it'll be a folksong. Mark my words, I know about these things. That's how Slow Boat to China started out.

I remember the reviewer of Revolver when it first come out said, when you hear Yellow Submarine - you suddenly realise this is the song they'll be still be singing at slinging out time in the pubs sixty years from now.

Perhaps not your folk music Dick, but the music of the folk.....

Good luck with the jazz mate! Keep it up! A great start.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM

Hey, how come this thread got moved to the non-music section? (Is someone taking Cage literally?)

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:21 PM

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:00 PM

Folkie Dave,lentement.
I have always liked Jazz.Last year I helped to organise the Ballydehob Jazz Festival.
the point of this thread is a joke,since most people who have seen me perform know that I sing traditional and contemporary folk songs.
However if John Lennon can be described as a folksinger,then I can decribe myself quite inaccurately as a Jazz singer.
when I go to a jazz club I expect to hear Jazz,not Dick Miles singing Tam Linn,or Paul Maccartney singing Yesterday,or Sharon Shannon.
when I go to a Folk Festival, I do not expect to hear Westlife.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:31 PM

The conductor Sir Thomas Beecham was once asked whether he had conducted any Stockhausen. He replied: "No, but I once trod in some."

Incidentally Dick - when did you become enamoured with Jazz? There will be those on here who will be delighted. Not me of course I am far too polite, And how's the French coming on!!?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:12 PM

That was mine!

Stravinsky is supposed to have said that he looked forward to a full concert-length work. LOL!

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:11 PM

Subject: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:51 PM

here is my jazz cyberspace version,of John Cages 4 minutes 33.