BS: History in Mississippi Today

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:12 PM

After the February Super Tuesday primary in 1988, Jesse Jackson led in the delegate count. He was the Democratic frontrunner. He finished second to Dukakis for the entire primary season.

Sorry to burst that bubble AGAIN, but that's the facts, Jack.

This whole 'Obama is the first African American...' is a load of pig manure.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Kent Davis
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:07 PM

Riginslinger, you need wonder no longer. Virginia's population of about 7,643,000 is about 20% black. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/51000.html


Kent

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:35 PM

You have a good point there, McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 07:44 PM

Obama is from Illinois,

So they know him up there, and if he's not as good as people are making out they'd be more likely to be aware of that, and that'd be a reason to vote against him. "No man is a prophet in his own land."

"Favourite sons" don't always walk it. Al Gore didn't carry his own state Tennessee, did he, when he ran for President?

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:28 AM

I am proud of Barack Obama.

His showing in Mississippi, while not overwhelming by any means, is strong. And it shows a number of things that are hopeful. As Patty points out, this would never have happened in 1963!! His showing in the country at large is a hopeful sign that the deep, urgent need to rethink our "business as usual" methods as a nation is being felt and recognized widely. This fact alone actually restores some measure of long-abraded confidence in the vision of a constitutional democracy surviving the depradations of greed and clique and claque that has been so well orchestrated by rich good old boy networks over the last two centuries.

Rig, if you are trying to argue that Obama's supporters are operating on racial bias, I have to disagree. It is more likely, to me, that the people who are turning out to vote for him are responding to who he is and what he says, rather than his epidermal melanine ratio.

A

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:23 AM

Bobert has made the point I wanted to....does anyone remember the polls shortly after Obama entered the campaign? He was not at that time getting automatic and heavy support from blacks. The African-American community has been burned too many times to feel safe in supporting someone just because they had some ethnic identity.

Obama gradually picked up support as he said the right things and showed that he understood not only black concerns, but also basic issues which MANY Democrats shared.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:58 AM

"Obviously, Rig, you have not noted Iowa, Illinois, Vermont, Virginia etc, etc..."

                   Obama is from Illinois, and Iowa and Vermont are caucus states, so that leaves Virginia. I wonder what the black population of Virginia is?

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:51 AM

pattyClink you've made me think! Start off with poetry 'cause this gets worse.

I saw this thread yesterday morning before the second response came up and I thought about it all day. I was an active radical in the late 60's and although I missed out on some things there was still plenty of ways to be involved from '67 on and many were. Tuesday was a great day in Mississippi and for all the fun I've had poking at them as patty and khandu well know, they have a right and a duty to take pride in what has happened over these years. There is still more to do as there is more to do all across the country.

Thanks for the thread as it also made me realize why I feel so bad not really supporting Obama. I don't feel racist, I feel a hypocrite to my past. I was happy to feel the joy for what has happened and encouraged by the vote in Mississippi without guilt. This thread brought all that together......Thanks patty.......

I will of course vote for Obama if he's the candidate but I still fear he lacks the horsepower to beat the Republican machine when it gets cranked up. He's still way too long on rhetoric. Once again, Jimmy Carter sounded better than any candidate had a right to with what were reasonable, workable, goals and ideas............Didn't work out though.

As I've stated repeatedly though, we are in need of not just modifications to our political system but a revolution. By the time someone reaches higher offices they have sold their souls. Ron Davies' zealotry to the contrary, Obam is no different.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:02 AM

What we still have are two strong contenders for the Democratic Presidential nomination and the voters in the remaining state primaries and caucuses will have a tougher job than usual making up their mind. I would hope that race or gender will not be a deciding factor but it will for some people. I would much rather see the nomination decided on issues and capability, and there are enough differences there to keep voters thinking for weeks. Both candidates (and their aides) need to do more to get the voters to focus there.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:17 AM

I don't see this as "all about race"...

If Mike Tyson was the black candidate and Charles Manson the white candidate I don't think we'd see the voting going the way it is going...

I think, however, it is fair to say that race does play a ***part*** into folks decision making...

I will admit that I give ***extra credit*** to Obama for being black but my decision to support him is based more on my dislike of the Clintons and more for the freshness that Obama brings...

It is neither helpfill nor correct for people to accept the misconception that this election is "all about race"... Those are the thoughts of folks who are steeped in racism and not thoughts of the general public... Yes, the right wing would love for this misconceptiion to gain traction becuase then they could make the election about race... It isn't and I, for one, will call out anyone who promotes this right wing misconception...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:02 AM

I shouldn't post till I look over the numbers more closely, but I was glad to see everybody check in and wanted to report in.

What little I saw of the coverage is that the 'white vote' was a very strange bag in this election. As I said, in MY precinct most were going Republican; they are conservative evangelicals and Jesus incarnate couldn't get them to vote Democrat for a President. And there were NO other races on the ballot.   

However, in the northeast part of the state and in other districts there were three races to replace congressmen where there were free-for-all primaries on both sides. This brought out a LOT of gamesmanship; you had died in the wool Republicans grabbing a Democrat ballot to cast a choice in their Congress slot. Then, what to do about the pesky Prez slot? Well, vote for Hillary because she'll be the weaker candidate in the general election.   

Yeah, I was disappointed Barack didn't sweep the whole Democrat vote, but I really don't know how much of that was 'real' and not crossover tinkering. And, I don't know how many blue haired white ladies who remember not being able to get into law school were gonna by God vote for a woman, and good for them. Or how many conscientious Democrats just really don't think the guy is ready, and good for them.   On the black side, you had a lot of conservative voters who might have gone with McCain deep down, but when faced with this historic chance, said, hey, Obama's a good guy, I'll go with him out of brotherhood, and get my 2 cents in on the Democrat congress primary while I'm at it.   And yeah, there's some 'hell, no, I don't want an affirmative action President.'

We were the reddest state in the Union last time, so let's not expect miracles from a half-didn't-count primary.    There was almost NO campaigning done in this state, it's not like Iowa where every warm body over 21 was harangued and hustled to the polls---it was a light turnout 'special election' basically, with no hype.   Our household got not one piece of mail nor one phone call.

Guest-guest, didn't mean to slight the historic runs made by Jesse Jackson, or Shirley Chisolm (sp?).    Lord knows they paved the way and got little credit for it.

I don't agree with Obama on everything, but how cool that most people are looking at him for 'the content of his character' and finding him worthy. And that's all Dr. King asked.

I wish Clinton would get behind this new generation instead of trying to derail it. I fear what a combination of Clinton attacks and Karl Rove attacks will do.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 08:50 AM

Obviously, Rig, you have not noted Iowa, Illinois, Vermont, Virginia etc, etc.

It is patently obvious that Obama's appeal is far beyond just black voters---obvious to anyone who wants to see it--which doesn't include you, it appears.

And those who refuse on a racial basis to vote for Obama are also not likely to vote in the fall for a woman. I've already read interviews with Democratic voters--not Naderites--who say that there is "nobody for me" left on the Democratic side.

All the more reason the Democrats would be unbelievably foolish not to harness the enthusiasm generated by Obama--among many new voters, independents, and even some Republicans. With Hillary it would be a pale shadow.

And the vast majority of her supporters will in fact vote for him--just to keep a Republican from naming another Supreme Court justice.

Whereas, by her vile campaign--which continues--she has thoroughly alienated a huge number of his supporters--and is not likely to get them back by the fall, even if she were to be the nominee. With her, turnout will be way down from the primary season.

I have seen precisely no evidence, backed up by logic, to contradict this reading of the political scene.

I hope you can tell the difference between logic and smearing. Your track record does not give much hope on this score.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 08:18 AM

I actually think it's big progress in Mississippi that even 25% of white Democrats have voted for a black man for president of the US. Imagine the chances of that, say, in 1963.

And most of the rest of the country is way ahead.

It is in large part due to the contrast the campaigns have run. Clinton: almost entirely negative, against Obama. Obama, as he puts it, has indeed responded in a measured way.

Perfect example: how he showed the internal inconsistency in Clinton's argument that he is not ready as Commander in Chief (as if she has one iota of better readiness).   It's well known that the #1 function of the VP is to take over if the president is incapacitated. She thinks he would be a great VP--therefore she must think he is ready to take over from the president--including as Commander in Chief, an absolutely vital function of the president. So, he points out, she has contradicted herself.

He has destroyed her argument with her own words.

This man can think on his feet.

A very pleasant change from recent history.

She can also think--but hasn't shown much evidence of it lately. And we don't need a vindictive harridan as Commander in Chief.

We've had enough instability at the top for the last 7 years. Another helping? No thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 08:16 AM

Ron - Here's why it's scary: In Mississippi Obama wins 90% of the black vote and Hillary wins 75% of the white vote. So if Obama is the candidate in the general election, and you spread that same ratio out over the entire country, it becomes a shoo-in for President McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 08:14 AM

I don't care what Ron Davies or the commentators say--it is all about race with African American voters this year, even though it ain't PC to say it. It is the truth.

How many African American voters will vote for Clinton if Obama doesn't get the nod? Hard to say. I think Clinton getting the nomination will suppress African American voter turnout. However, there is a possibility that will also change the Democratic party voting demographics this year. It could be this year would be the first year we see the Latino voting bloc become more important than the African American voting bloc. And I've been saying that for some time now.

There is a lot of tension between Latino and African American communities in places like Texas, New Orleans, LA. Sure the Obama Love Fest brings in some young Latino voters, but he has had an extremely difficult time winning over that community.

If Clinton wins the nomination, she will do it without her husband's most historically significant and loyal voting bloc: African Americans, and by winning back a bloc of voters her husband did marginally well with: working class whites, also known as the Reagan Democrats.

If Obama wins the nomination, it will be because he is able to win the rural white vote & Pittsburgh's working class white voters than have been going to Clinton. That doesn't seem very likely at this point, but stranger things have happened in this election cycle.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: mg
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 02:31 AM

I see nothing whatsoever wrong with proudly and preferentially voting for a member of your race, provided he/she is a decent, competent candidate who will also serve people of other races fair and square. What in the world is wrong with it? Especially when there are not huge policy differences and he is in many (except militarily) an exceptional candidate...same if women want to vote for a decent woman candidate..would that we had one..As long as they reach a baseline of honesty, competency etc., why should we care? Why is it a problem? It is time. mg

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:51 PM

" previously VERY popular white candidate"....   And as several black voters--and other commentators--have noted, the reason she is not as popular now has nothing to do with her race---but rather the unadulteratedly despicable campaign she and Team Clinton have run. And I don't think I have to detail the aspects of it yet again. Anybody who even read Mudcat threads would have a rather lengthy list---and it continues--now dear old Geraldine Ferraro is carrying on the good work of the Clinton campaign.

Face it, Hillary has indeed poisoned the well she intended to drink from in the fall. It was totally avoidable, totally stupid, and totally Clinton---win at any cost. An attitude which, it doesn't seem they will ever learn, has a sizable downside.

And Rig--

"kind of scary..."   You mean that a black man might possibly win the presidency?   Was it also "'kind of scary" when Obama won the primaries and caucuses in Wisconsin, Virginia, Maryland, Vermont, Iowa, Washington State, etc., etc?

And if you think Hillary would have any better chance to win the Deep South than Obama does, you're sadly deluded. But he does have a better chance than she does elsewhere--for reasons we've gone into before.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 10:55 PM

There is no doubt there has been racial progress--more than there has been for women, if we are to judge by this race.

But looking at the race through those sorts of lenses is just playing the hierarchy of suffering game, IMO, and is really not helpful.

My point is--the African Americans Obama is winning with are very, very conservative voters. Which makes sense, because he is conservative too.

But when 9 out of 10 black voters go for the black candidate over a previously VERY popular white candidate, well. It is very hard to make a cogent argument they aren't voting race, IMO.

The Obama campaign keeps saying it doesn't matter they haven't won in the big urban areas and states, because all those Clinton voters will go to him in the general. Clinton campaign claims mostly the same thing, except they add that Obama's ability to win the red states won't matter in the general because those states will likely go Republican anyway.

Time will tell. Too much unknown right now to call it either way. But if I were a betting man, my chips would still be on Clinton to take PA, and enough of the superdelegates at the convention to win it. Eventually. After god only knows how many ballots.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 10:48 PM

Yes, the ethnic divide still exists, but the numbers do indicate progress.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 10:47 PM

How are the votes breaking down? I am at work and can't look too hard...I know they reported an Obama victory when 5% of the votes were in and Clinton was ahead, which I found unsettling. mg

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 10:36 PM

Obama got 90% of the black vote, and Hillary got 75% of the white vote. This whole thing is beginning to look kind of scary to me.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 10:07 PM

It did take a while for us to see some things clearly didn't it? Those of us trying to stand proud while explaining in various threads here at Mudcat how inspiring, and, yes, grand, the 1960s were when we lived through the elation and the trauma of it.----
Patty, you put some of it into needed perspective. Indeed, Patty Clink, thanks for doing that.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 07:08 PM

I actually had that 'mist up' moment (actually, I was crying pretty good) in 1988 with Jesse Jackson. Now, before everyone decides to start screaming how 'it wasn't the same' (it was actually, but history always has it's revisionists.

The moment for me was the night Jesse Jackson was scheduled to address the convention (look up and listen to the speech sometime, it is in the top 100 American speeches of all time). He arrived at the convention center in a black limosine with none other than Rosa Parks. He personally got out of the limo and made a point of going around to the other side of the car, to open her door and help her step out. It was a 'behind the scenes' shot of them arriving, but I tell you, I doubt there was a dry eye in the newsrooms when it happened that night.

From the back of the bus...

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:53 PM

Here's a story about - that airman, with some pictures. Looking good at 84.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:33 PM

One of the Tuskeegee Airmen said he hoped he could stay alive long enough to vote in this election. mg

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:24 PM

Been a long time coming, man, gonna be a long time gone.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:22 PM

I don't know how proud the ol' hippies are but the ol' radicals, like myself, are very proud...

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:09 PM

patty...this old agitator (not hippie) wishes he could see again the courthouse in Hattiesburg, and find the young black girl who marched ahead of me in the picket line for voting rights in 1964. She defied the rules and started singing "Let My People Go" and it sounded GOOD for 5-6 minutes until the sheriff threatened to arrest us!
I'd like to know that she voted, and that she is still singing! I was there for ONE WEEK, and later in McComb for a week....she lived there and endured and likely is still there. She deserves the toast and I hope she has some idea of how pleased we 'agitators' are that we made a bit of a difference.

I do hope that most of those folks vote for Obama because he is good, rather than just because he has some black heritage...but it is SO important that they have the opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:28 PM

Patty-

Nice to hear the on the ground report from Mississippi.

Please provide us a round-up report as well when the results come in.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 10:35 AM

I was out working in my garage this morning and, for some unknown reason, I thought of my battalion commander in Vietnam in 1971, Lt. Colonel Ernest Johnson. LTC Johnson was a Black American and one of the first (but hardly the first) of his ethnicity (have I mentioned that I hate the word "race"?) to reach that rank. He was also a marker, like Medgar Evers, Dr. King and Senator Obama, on that path that (I hope) will lead to the place where people of color will be acknowledged for their accomplishments first and for their skin tone never.

Subject: RE: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 09:57 AM

Aw. Patty, ya got me misted up on that fine post.

Thanks.


A

Subject: BS: History in Mississippi Today
From: pattyClink
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 09:43 AM

I just came from the polling place.   I went to cast my little protest vote for Ron Paul and I'll switch to Obama for the general.

I was the 5th name to sign the Republican list, because most of the Republicans stayed home since McCain has been Chosen.

So everyone else there was voting Democrat, and it was a brisk traffic and it was predominantly black folks participating. Several black people cheerfully wished me good morning on the way in. This is when I started to realize something was different today. These voters could barely contain their pride and glee on this historic day. Three generations were there, proudly casting a vote for one of their own to be President of the United States.

I suddenly found myself choked up, not just from pride but from wishing Medgar Evers could have been there, grandkids tagging behind, to cast his vote. It seemed so wrong that he couldn't be there.   Then I realized, this is what he died for. This day. A good man runs for President who happens to be black and he is the front runner and people have pride in their country and hope for the future.   

This is also what all you old hippies worked for. So to all you freedom riders and 'agitators': lift a glass and toast yourself tonight and all your lost companions who did their bit to make this happen. History has turned a page, turned a chapter, has turned the book over.