The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:03 PM

To my ear, the tune is another slight variant of Youghal Harbour a.k.a. Boolavogue, The Galway Shawl and Sweet Omagh Town!

Regards

p.s. And, of course, Moreton Bay

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:19 PM

In addition to being very similar to one way of "The Galway Shawl", the air is also like that of "[Sweet] Omagh Town". Further to Rapaire's posting just above, I've heard those lines as,

"In the early mornin,
The Screws were bawlin,
'Get up, ye bowsey and clean up your cell'..."

and I think it was a recording of BB himself singing.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:53 PM

Looks like most of that book from Kilmainham was taken from O'Sullivan's biog! One thing it doesn't say tho is that Governor Sean Kavanagh saw a helluva deterioration in Behan's physical appearance and condition between the two 'visits'.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:08 PM

Okay. From: Tim Carey, "Mountjoy: the story of a prison" (Cork: The Collins Press, 2000, 2005).

In March 1942 Behan was in Mountjoy for a few days after his release from borstal in Liverpool. In April he was arrested after a shoot-out with detectives near Glasnevin and sentenced to 14 years; he spent 18 months in the Joy, transferred to Arbour Hill, and released in an amnesty at the end of the War. He was back in Mountjoy twice more: in 1948 for assaulting a Garda and using profane and obscene language and in 1954 for drunk and disorderly. He was one of Governor Kavanagh's favorite prisoners, and Kavanagh arranged fro Behan to meet Sean O'Faolain -- and O'Faolain published Behan's first serious literary effort in "The Bell".

His best known play "The Quare Fellow" is set in Mountjoy at the time of the execution of Bernard Kirwan in 1943....Throughout the play a prisoner in 'the digger' -- the punishment cell -- sings "The Old Triangle".... (pp.228-230)

The triangle (and a bell) was used to signal the times for various functions: at 5:30 a.m. the first bell signaled the warders to assemble and the prisoners to arise: To begin the morning/A warder bawling/"Get up out of bed you/And clean out your cell. Most prisoners were responsible for cleaning their cells prior to starting work for the day -- in their cells in the beginning, about 1850. (p.53)

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Gulliver
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:01 PM

I suppose I should mention that I actually spent time in the 'Joy (for a political offence). I was released after a couple of days. I shared a cell with Dr. John McManus (husband of Liz McManus), who spent the time reading a book by Lenin.

I was amazed that I met so many people I knew there!

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:24 PM

I'm currently reading a book on The Joy, which I bought at Kilmainham. Behan is mentioned in it; I'll try to remember to check when I get home.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 05:16 AM

As an aside:

The song is featured on Bert Jansch's latest album The Black Swan. Bert said that he got his version from hearing Dominic Behan (Brendan's brother, of course) singing it in an Edinburgh pub.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:44 AM

alright, the way it is sung, the first and third lines differ slightly, but I would say there is no disputing that Behan took the melody of "The Galway Shawl" and "adapted" it for "The Ould Triangle"

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Gulliver
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 07:46 PM

Murray MacLeod wrote:

It might be as well at this point to note that the melody is that of the traditional song "The Galway Shawl".

Similar, but not the same.

Don

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 08:58 AM

There is still a women's section at Mountjoy .

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:39 PM

I have info (I think from another thread here) that it was a wing of Mountjoy, not a separate institution.

It's a ways out of town.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:03 PM

I was once in Dublin and walked to the Royal Canal to see if I could find the Prison of the song. It never really occurred to me that there were two prisons involved here; one where the narrator was and the other the "Female prisonW where he longed to be. I only went looking for the female prison, which I think was once there but is now demolished. Must look into this a bit more

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 05:53 PM

There's an interesting & insightful & overlong reminiscence at Clicky

I copied this years back but happily it's still available on the WayBackMachine

Oddly, no mention of Behan singing this song.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 03:15 PM

It might be as well at this point to note that the melody is that of the traditional song "The Galway Shawl".

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 03:08 PM

The song is featured in Behan's play 'The Quare Fellow: a Comedy-Drama', first performed at the Pike Theatre, Dublin, on 19 November 1954. As far as I can trace, the first public performance of the song was given by Behan himself when he sang it on radio in 1952, on 'The Ballad Maker's Saturday Night'. He had been working on The Quare Fellow since around 1945.   

Nowadays, Behan's authorship is seldom questioned, but it is very interesting to note how he introduced the song on radio. "This song was written by a person who will never hear it recorded, because he's not in possession of a gramophone. He's…he's… pretty much of a tramp". Behan was not renowned for his modesty: certainly not to the extent of crediting something successful that he had written to someone else. In addition, his biographer Michael O'Sullivan writes that Behan asked for the radio royalty payment to be made to Dick Shannon, a Dubliner: possibly an old pub or prison acquaintance. O'Sullivan also quotes the show's producer, Micheál Ó hAodha, as stating "he [Behan] never claimed authorship". The 1952 broadcast consisted of only four verses. The balance of probability is that Dick Shannon originated the song and that Behan later added to it

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:33 AM

After opening night, his singing was just tape recorded. Since the singer was supposedly in a cell, out of sight, there was no reason for him to appear every night or to spend money on another singer.

Pretty definitively, the tape has disappeared along with other material & props from the Dublin production.

I can say that in the book of the play, the language used is proper English, not Oirish or bog Irish. Written as "old," not "auld" or any other accent. I've wondered how he actually sang it, though.

The song never occurs as a full song. It's used a verse or just a few lines as curtain raiser & closer. I'm not even sure the tiny, low-budget theater had a real curtain so the distraction of the song would have been very useful.

It _might_ be that MacColl was the first to stitch it together as a regular song. I sign it as close as I can to the play (slightly different from the database) but, as I said, there are 1/2 repeated verses here & there in the book.

I agree that no credit or tune is actually given in the book.

Good song.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:07 AM

Behan was suppose to have ben a terrible shot .I heard that he got fifteen years jail - a year for every yard he missed by

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:50 AM

Behan was drunk when he fired at the guard (policeman). He was lucky that he missed for the Free State government of the day would probably have executed him if he had kiled the guard.

For the reasons for questioning Behan's authorship of the song, see Michael O'Sullivan book 'Brendan Behan: a life', described by Seumas Behan as 'the definitive biography of my brother'. Probably, somebody else wrote the song. Behan didn't originally claim authorship, he just kind grew into it when the real author disappeared off the scene, dead or in jail. The song was featured in 'Quare Fellow' (sung from the wings by Behan himself on opening night) but it wasn't written for the play, being years older.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:12 AM

Thanks for that Curmudgeon - oddly enough I have just digitises 'Bad Lads' but hadn't got round to doing the notes.
My Uncle Pat, who shared many political symapathies with Behan was in Arbour Hill Prison with him and claimed to have witnessed his winning a bet by sprinting naked around the perimeter of the exercise yard in heavy snow.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:58 AM

From the liner notes to the Riverside LP, "Bad Lads and Hard Cases," sung by Ewan MacColl, w. Peggy Seeger:

The Banks of the Royal Canal - I learned this unusual prison song from the singing of Brendan Behan of Dublin. When I asked him where he had learnd it, he answered, "In Mountjoy." And what were you doing thre?", I asked him. "Eight years," he said, "for shooting some detective sergeant or other, but praise be to God he was no countryman of ours."

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:08 AM

'Auld' 'Oul''
The song is referred to as 'The Old Triangle' in published versions and on the sleeve of Behan's own record 'Brendan Behan sings songs from 'The Hostage, and Irish Ballads'.
Mountjoy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 03:17 AM

The song was written by Brendan Behan for his play ' The Quare Fellow '
about an execution in Mountjoy.

eric

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Declan
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:01 PM

By the way - no need to change the thread name again, but I'd say it was the Oul' Triangle myself.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Declan
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:59 PM

It's one of the Clancy's doing the Intro - probably Liam (definitely not Tommy Makem). The Clancy's are from the border of Waterford and Tipperary and would have spent a lot more time in New York than they ever spent in Dublin, so may be a bit challenged when it comes to Dublin geography. Liam always did a good line in patter between songs and I'd say he was never one to let the truth get in the way of a good story. Anyway Kilmainham is nowhere near the Royal Canal, so Liam got it wrong.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:43 PM

obviously Mountjoy gaol.

This is the link to the Clancys' performance of "The Ould Triangle"

I don't know if it is Tommy Makem or Liam Clancy doing the intro, but I find it bizarre that they didn't know which prison was being referred to.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:34 PM

firstly, the song is known variously as "The Old Triangle", "The Ould Triangle" or "The Auld Triangle".

"Ould" seems to me to be a better phonetic representation of the way Irish artists sing it then either "Auld" or "Old"

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM

Definitely Mountjoy.

The real question is, did Behan actually originite 'Old Triangle'? Probably not.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: GUEST,Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:26 PM

The Royal Canal Way in Dublin

with a lovely picture of the statue of Brendan Behan

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:23 PM

Or this one

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:23 PM

Firstly, the song is called 'The Auld Triangle'.

Kilmainham Gaol does not overlook the Royal Canal which runs through Dublin's Northside (Kilmainham is on the Southside). The gaol in question is Mountjoy.

Subject: RE: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:21 PM

I think it was Mountjoy. This site gives a link to a map, and you can see the canal directly behind the prison.

Giok

Subject: The Ould Triangle: which gaol ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:13 PM

not being an expert on the geography of Dublin, I was wondering which gaol is referred to in the song.

I am assuming that Brendan Behan wrote the song (although some say his brother wrote it) and I was intrigued to hear an introduction by the Clancy Brothers which stated that the song was about Kilmainham gaol, which overlooks the Royal Canal, but Behan never spent any time in Kilmainham gaol (he was only a year old when it was closed).

he did however spend time in Mountjoy gaol, so what I would like to know is whether Mountjoy gaol is in close proximity to the Royal Canal as well.