BS: the big lie behind privatization

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 07:52 PM

Say, PDQ:

Do the words "Gray Davis", "Enron" mean anything to you? Ken Lay?

The entire state of California was held up at gunpoint by a Republican-led privatization of public utilities. The problem was partly, of course, that (a) the privatization of generating sources left the utilities bound to buy from profiteers and (b) the enforcement agencies did nothing to prevent the ripoffs until the Enron scandal materialized.


A

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:58 PM

I studied the California Energy Crisis and watched it happen in real time. I do not care what Wikipoopoo has to say about the subject. Their article is political and rubbish. It is pointless discussing facts with people who are argumentative or do not intend to listen.

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

>>>"...what happened in California under Enron?"

When did that happen?

It was under The Bear Flag Republic as well as Russia, Spain, Mexico, France and the United States of America, but under Enron?<<<

Funny. Its under Oregon and the sky as well. Under Alaska and Alabama in an alphabetical list. Do you realize that "under a flag" is an expression and the place in not actually "under" a flag?

But the energy market there was controlled and manipulated by Enron. You seem to have a habit of changing the subject when you lose a point.

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:32 PM

As I'm sure is abundantly apparent, energy speculators can have a tendency to drive up utility prices if there isn't sufficient regulation. And there wasn't. And Enron did, using fradulent methods.

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM

"...what happened in California under Enron?"

When did that happen?

It was under The Bear Flag Republic as well as Russia, Spain, Mexico, France and the United States of America, but under Enron?

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:20 PM

If the rates in the US are so regulated, what happened in California under Enron?

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:17 PM

What you are all saying is true but none is the whole truth.

There are both advantages and disadvantages to privatizing. Which would depend on the point of view.

From the point of view of the rate payers it is had to imagine how things would improve. But does the government doing the privatizing have constituents who are not rate payers?

The private company would have obligations that the crown company would not have. They either have to pay off investors or the bank for the money raised to make the purchase.

On the other hand, if the government, looking at the projected costs for the utility and knowing that a rate increase was just around the corner might unload it to a private entity so that they would not have to take all the heat for the rate increase.

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:14 PM

Agreed, Leadfingers.

pdq - Hell, it probably is illegal to burn wood in some Canadian municipalities now. ;-) I wouldn't be surprised. But I'm not quite sure about it.

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:10 PM

John on the Sunset Coast,

My statement is not actually in conflict with yours.

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:03 PM

OPG (Ontario Power Generation), a crown corporation, in 2007 provided 70% of all power used in Ontario, from 3 nuclear, 5 fossil and 64 hydroelectric plants. 42% is nuclear.
Bruce Power (private) provides 20% of Ontario's electricity (It leases 2 nuclear generators from OPG).
What are their rates per unit?

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:02 PM

If a public utility is privately owned, isn't it then a...

private utility? :>)

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:50 PM

Public Utilities should NOT be Privately owned (at least in MY not so humble opinion) but should be government controlled with the proviso that the Managers should NOT be left to sit back and do Damn All to keep efficiency as a prioriy .

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: gnu
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM

I clicked back here by mistake... glad I did... pdq... I have misjudged your posts... you are a true card!

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:24 PM

Little Hawk,

I have been told that some parts of Canada have banned firewood as a means of heating one's home. Is that true?

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:17 PM

pdq, I think you are only partly correct. I believe that LADWP charged among the highest rates in reselling power to grid for other utility companies, but not to its own consumers. At least that's the way I, in a neighboring city, remember it.

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: gnu
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:16 PM

But, where did they but the power from and how much did they have to pay for it? Facts and figures eh? Geez... that's it for me... byeeeeee....

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:15 PM

As far as I know, every state is required, by federal statute, to have Public Utilities Commission (aka PUC).

Do a web search and check them out. Here a "mission statement" from Minnesota's PUC:   


Electricity

The Energy Unit reviews all matters relating to natural gas or electricity coming before the Commission. Cases investigated by the Unit fall into several broad categories: rate changes, energy resource planning and certification, service area matters, mergers and acquisitions, and formal complaints. The Unit has also been actively engaged in monitoring the structural changes occurring in these industries.

The primary duties of the Commission regarding the regulation of energy are as follows:

*        Setting rates and regulation of service quality for large electric and natural gas companies
*        Approving resource plans for large electric utilities, including consideration of environmental affects of energy use
*        Granting Certificates of Need for large energy facilities, including power plants and transmission lines
*        Establishing depreciation and accounting procedures for electric and natural gas utilities
*        Approving appropriate financial incentives for energy conservation
*        Serving as board of appeals for the Conservation Improvement Program
*        Setting appropriate incentive for gas purchasing programs
*        Encouragement and approval of co-generation and small power generation resources
*        Handling complaints related to stray voltage and currents in the earth; has included a large study by an independent board of scientific advisors
*        Approving mergers, acquisitions and transactions between affiliates
*        Approving securities issuances, stock purchases and other major financial transactions with rate impacts
*        Administering assigned service areas
*        Administering the Cold Weather Shut-off Rule
*        Mediating consumer complaints regarding energy utility services

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM

All the utilities used to be heavily regulated here too, pdq, but things have changed. We were told that deregulation would accompany the opening up of these public utilities to the private sector and that this would result in cheaper energy costs to the consumer and more efficient servic. That was a bald-faced lie. The services have not improved. The price has doubled.

One thing one can do is switch to a gas furnace, gas being cheaper. Only problem is that to do so costs maybe $20,000 or more...

You can also burn some wood, of course, if it's available. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:02 PM

BTW, which entity set a record for charging the most $$$ for a kilowatt of power during the California energy crisis back in 2001?

ANS: Los Angeles Light & Power, a part of the Los Angeles city government.

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: gnu
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:02 PM

pdq... "In the United States, all utilities are heavily regulated by the government."

Ahhh, I don't think they are, but I am not sure. Can you give us some facts and figures?

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:59 PM

But we're talking about Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:57 PM

I'm not sure what people are talking about here. In the United States, all utilities are heavily regulated by the government. All rate hikes must be applied for and granted in formal hearings that are open to news media (at least) and usually open to the public. Private citizens are often given a short time at the microphone to express opinions

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: Newport Boy
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:45 PM

I'm with Little Hawk. Costs would undoubtedly have gone up with a public utility (increased wages, etc), but prices wouldn't need to double. We're talking hydro here - there's not much element of raw material costs.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:02 PM

No, Q, I don't think so. The reason why? The people in downtown Orillia are still getting their hydro from a public utility, and it's way cheaper per kilowatt than mine. I'm a few miles outside the town, and I have to get my hydro from a private company which took over the public utility I used to get it from.

Look, face facts. A public utility doesn't have to make a profit, it just has to break even. That's cheaper for the consumer than a profit oriented private utility. It has to be. Profit-oriented businesses are not designed to merely break even...they are designed to maximize profit and they will charge whatever they think the market will bear...whatever they can get away with.

Now, hydro is not a mere option in today's society, specially in a cold climate. You've GOT to have it. Therefore the privately-owned utility has you at its mercy and they can raise the price as high as they want to as long as they don't go so far as to create an absolutely unmanageable crisis. The larger privately-owned businesses become, the more they are at liberty to simply charge the public whatever they want to...and you have the development of what amounts to monopolies. That's what we have happening nowadays. Unofficial monopolies and price fixing.

I'm pretty sure that that is what's happening with gasoline prices too.

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: gnu
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:25 PM

Ahhh... I learned to add and subtract before I went to PUBLIC school.

If it's public, it costs a dollar. If it's private, it cost a dollar plus profit.

It ain't a difficult concept.

What is difficult to understand is why people are so stunned and complacent when they allow politicians to line their offshore bank accounts with bribes to screw over the public by selling public property to private enterprise.

Even worse is that these crooks don't get charged with fraud and sent to prison.

Arrrrgggghhhhh... oh, I gotta calm down...

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:11 PM

Prices would have risen had the utility remained public, no doubt, but not nearly as much as they did under private (profiteering) ownership.

Is anyone really naive enough to believe corporations scheme and bribe and lobby to take over public services for no motive other than disinterested civic duty?

JotSC, I am very glad to learn that there are still a few conservatives intelligent and independent enough to perceive actual fact, and not make all their judgements and decisions based upon ideology.

The greedheads who try to sell us the idea that government=incompetancy and private-enterprise=efficiency, always and without exception, are the very ones who, upon taking public office, do everything in their power to demonstrate how poorly government can serve the citizenry.

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

Prices might not have doubled if everyone got their power from public utilities.

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:02 PM

Have to agree with Q. Prices would have doubled for a public utility as well. Sad but true and we are all in for a hell of a winter.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:59 PM

Little Hawk--I'm pretty much in agreement with you here. It ain't for nothing they're called Public Utilities...at least they used to be.

I also am against mega mergers within industies. Does anyone seriously think there will be more choices when the XM/Sirius merger? There used to be 6 or 7 grocery chains otSC; now only 3. Do we have the same choices in brands and types of food. We do not!

Lest you think I am turning in my conservative creditials, Im not. But there does have to be a balance between size and service to the public.

Subject: RE: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:57 PM

The cost would have doubled in any case. There is no cheap electricity anywhere.
Now that grids are connected across the U. S. and Canada, at times your power may be from Georgia or wherever.

Subject: BS: the big lie behind privatization
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM

Here's an interesting little side note on how private industry works...

Our hydro industry in Ontario used to be a public company. Hydro was sold to the public at cost. Thus the public's monthly hydro payments were sufficient to maintain the system and employ its personnel.

A series of neo-conservative policymakers in the Ontario government decided that they would do us all "a favour" by deregulating and privatizing the hydro industry. This would supposedly reduce the cost of hydro and increase efficiency... ha! ha! ha!

Well, it is now 2 or 3 years later, and guess what? The price of hydro has DOUBLED in that time! Yes. Naturally...they have to make a profit now, don't they? And isn't it normal for a profit-making business to sell its product at around twice the cost of production? And efficiency is now indistiguishable from what it was before. And our overall taxes have not been reduced.

My, my. Does anyone see what all this privatization of former public services is really about? I do. It's about further enriching a business elite...the same business elite which funds the campaigns of the major political parties. It's about gouging the helpless public to pad the pockets of the business elite.

It's the BIG LIE when they tell the public that privatization of their social services will reduce costs and increase efficiency. The truth is, it will do the exact opposite in both cases. And your overall taxes will not go down either...your tax dollars will just be shifted somewhere else...maybe to finance a warmaking operation of some kind. Maybe to build some more prisons. Be sure of this...they will find a way to keep spending your money, but it won't be on your behalf.