BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:12 PM

That's not been my experience, Richard, talking about real people, and not politicians. I've met a fair number of people who'd describe themselves as "pro-life" and I can't remember a single one who fits that description.

Perhaps that's because my contacts have been more with people involved in "Life", who tend to reflect current mainstream Catholic views on capital punishment (against), military conflict (generally against, notably in the case of Iraq) and social policy (in favour of adequate suppport sytems).

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: curmudgeon
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:29 PM

Richard, I think that your UK experience would apply to some, if not most "pro-lifers" in the US as well. Tom Hall

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:43 PM

McGrath is there a verbal oops in your post of 0750?

I disagree with your view at 0146. In my experience in the UK most opponents of abortion want pregnancy and the raising of a child to punish those who do not sign up to sexual repression. The embryo is just a pawn in the game. Chattel breeder status is a key plank of keeping women subservient. And those who want that usually like capital punishment to keep the disadvantaged subservient, and war to punish foreigners who do not know their place.

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:46 PM

True enough the tem "pro-life" appears to have been quite unjustifiably appropriated in the USA by some people who might more fittingly be called "death eaters".

However it is worth noting that this is pretty atypical. In other part on the world opponents of abortion also tend to be opposed to capital punishment and war.

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 03:41 AM

Lieberman didn't turn his coat, he turned his tale!

I don't mind the religious fruits that much I can pit up with them, it's the nuts that I hate!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 11:47 PM

Try it again, bb.

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: GUEST,Beardedbruce
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:42 PM

last was me

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:13 PM

"pro-life" is a disengenuous term in the first place. That side grabbed the label to designate one single issue- when it comes to capital punishment, for instance, they've never heard of the term. Not to mention the life-sustaining social programs that many people who do not use the term to describe their own beliefs work assiduously for. There are 'pro-life' advocates whose mantra is bootstrap economics ("If I made it, so can they")and who consider gliving a helping hand a sign of weakness.

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:50 PM

If your coat's on the wrong way round you look a bit silly if you don't turn it the right way.

It has long seemed pretty clear to me that if anyone who is sincerely against pro-life they would want policies that reduce the economic and social pressures on women to have abortions when they don't want them. And for anyone who is sincerely pro-choice the same should be true.

All too often when people argue about these matters they seem to ignore this elementary principle.

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:50 PM

Turning a coat isn't necessarily bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:11 PM

All it seems to take to prompt a turning of the coat is a single-minded dedication to just one issue. Witness Lieberman.

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:21 PM

Thanks Ebbie,

Nice piece. it gives me hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 03:33 PM

I only hope that people not already "in the choir" get a chance to read or hear, and seriously ponder, what Schaffer has to say.

"The unborn like everyone else will do better in a country that puts people, the earth, and our future ahead of greed, oil company profits and jingoistic rule by fear.
"

Amen!

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM

Thanks, John H. Would that more conservatives were more like you.

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:15 PM

Jim Leach sounds like a wonderful man. People like that make me realize all over again that there are principled, statesmanlike people out there, and always will be. No matter how dark the prospect.

A Blogged (sic) Response to Jim Leach's Address

"I point these examples out because Jim has always been both a Republican (in the Theodore Roosevelt sense of the word) and an independent person. I always admired those traits in him and they help explain why he spoke at a Democratic convention to embrace their party's nominee. To him, it was the right thing to do.

"There's a side of me that wished Jim had not spoken to the Democratic convention. He opens himself up to being used by Democratic partisans, just like Republican partisans use Democrats who speak out for them. It will be very easy for Democratic true-believers to trot him out, make hay out of his appearance and forget him. Meanwhile, he's burned his bridges with his party -- this time for good.

"But tonight doesn't surprise me. It was different seeing Jim at a Democratic convention. But this was Jim being Jim. Principled, gutsy and independent."

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

Tremendous opinion piece. I've read Franky Schaeffer since I was in my teens (I think the first book I read was "Addicted to Mediocrity") and think he represents a very interesting point of view. He certainly puts his finger directly down on some irrational thinking that has become part of evangelical Christianity. He's converted to Catholicism, but NOBODY understands evangelicalism better that Schaeffer. Exept maybe Fischer. Or Horton.

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:35 PM

Good article, Ebbie. Thanks for linking to it. And to Kat for linking to the Jim Leach address.

One of my wife's cousins runs a day care center, taking care of infants of working mothers. Pammy adores babies, and she's one of the sweetest, most caring, and most generally benevolent people I know.

She is very pro-life, anti-abortion. And therein lies the problem. She voted for Bush, not because she liked his policies all that much, but because he said he was pro-life, anti-abortion. I tried to point out to her that despite what he says, and even if he is anti-abortion, he is not pro-life—and I'm sure you can reconstruct all the reasons I gave her:   his willingness—eagerness to start an illegal war in which tens or hundreds of thousands of people would be killed and maimed, and his cutting of social programs that fail to acknowledge that there is life after birth! This, along with his opposition to sex education in schools, which could go a long way toward preventing unwanted pregnancies.

She acknowledged that all this was true. Nevertheless, she voted for Bush anyway. He was anti-abortion.

Sweet woman. But she is a one-issue voter and she voted with her emotional responses to that issue without any interference whatsoever from her brain.

I heave a weary sigh when I think of the number of people who vote that way; one issue, oblivious to everything else.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 12:59 PM

Jim Leach was my Representative for many years. He is the only Republican I have ever voted for for a national level office. Very intelligent and principled fellow. I was still surprised when he endorsed Obama, did not win him a lot of friends in the state R party. He is done running for office though so he probably isn't too worried about that.

I remember watching him on a local political talk show one time. I was amazed at his performance because he was actually answering the questions that he had been asked. He did not use the questions as a starting point from which to veer off into his talking points.

Subject: RE: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

Jim Leach speaking last night!

Subject: BS: Born Again Turn Coats - Political
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 12:31 PM

Here is a hard-hitting expository of how a Republican-Pro-Life-Leader turned Independent. I'd like to get this kind of message circulated farther and wider.

"I will be voting for Senator Obama and am fighting for his election because I am pro-life."

Why He Supports Obama


Anyone else have stories to post?