BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:08 PM

Yes, Dennis Kucinich can be characterized as a US politician who is genuinely on the "left"...he may be the only one. That's why I like him the best of all of them. I'm very happy to see that he got re-elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 02:40 PM

Much worry about Obama in business circles here-

Worry about re-negotiation of trade agreements with Canada.
Worry about foot-dragging or repudiation of NAFTA.
Worry about dis-incentives on Canadian branches of American-owned businesses- factories, agribusiness, resource affiliates, with consequent loss of jobs and shrinking of Canadian economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 02:36 PM

I tak eit that saying "Rahn Israel Emanuel" is the same kind of coding as saying "Barack Hussein Obama".

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: pdq
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 02:26 PM

Just before the election, Charlie Rose, a liberal talk show host on Public Broadcasting, interviewed Tom Brokaw. This is from his own website:


ROSE: I don't know what Barack Obama's worldview is.

BROKAW: No, I don't either.

ROSE: I don't know how he really sees where China is.

BROKAW: We don't know a lot about Barack Obama and the universe of his thinking about foreign policy.

ROSE: I don't really know. And do we know anything about the people who are advising him?

BROKAW: You know that's an interesting question.

ROSE: He is principally known through his autobiography and through very aspirational (sic) speeches, two of them.

BROKAW: I don't know what books he's read.

ROSE: What do we know about the heroes of Barack Obama?

BROKAW: There's a lot about him we don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:37 PM

By UK standards I would think that the only well known US politician approaching the left position would be the (perennially impressive) Dennis Kucinic. Barack Obama I would put somewhere between Blair and Brown (Blair was always trying to privatise bits of the NHS, Brown I believe (on scant evidence, I admit) wants to preserve it - Obama has a long way to go before unequivocally adopting state funded NHS free at the point of delivery.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:14 PM

Yes, but much, much larger.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: Alice
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

"suburban houses that all look the same, clustered around shopping malls that all look the same"
hey, that sounds like Wasilla!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:56 PM

"people from the GTA think that all that matters in Canada begins and ends in the GTA."

Well, yeah, eh? Doesn't it? (Ha! Ha!...ducking and running...)

Americans won't be aware of this, but the whole rest of the country resents Toronto, while Toronto thinks it's the centre of the Canadian universe...likewise, Ontario thinks it's the centre of Canada...which it sort of is, in a geographical sense. "GTA" means "greater Toronto area"...a conglomeration of urban sprawl that is remorselessly devouring all the fertile farmland in southern Ontario, paving it over, and erecting miles and miles of suburban houses that all look the same, clustered around shopping malls that all look the same. It's horrifying.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: Neil D
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:10 PM

I think Arkie's last post about Mr. Obama sticking to the issues was quite succinct. It seemed like the more McCain's camp made personal attacks and outrageous claims (Socialist?!), the more that the remaining undecideds flocked to Barack Obama. Hopefully this is a sign of the maturation of the American electorate and if the Republicans continue to let their right wing lead the party, they will be increasingly marginallized.
   An example of President-elect Obama's aplomb and humor in dealing with these attacks was when he said "By the end of the week they'll be calling me a closet communist because I shared my toys in kindergarten." I think we as a people have finally , at long last gotten it right. Now, let's give our new President the time and support he needs to build our way out of the dire situations that the past administration has gotten us into.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: GUEST,Concordia poli sci prof
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 11:57 AM

The opening post describes Rosie DiManno as "one of Canada's foremost columnists."

As a Toronto Star columnist, she may be one of Toronto's foremost columnist, but she has no profile beyond the greater Toronto area. But of course, people from the GTA think that all that matters in Canada begins and ends in the GTA.

Defining Obama as conservative or right-of-centre in the Canadian context might have been true in the Trudeau-era, but we're long past that now. Given the the centre's shift over the past 20 years, and particularly in the past 10 years, Obama would be comfortable with policies of the Liberal Party and most of the policies of the NDP.

In the context of today's Canadian politics, when Stephen Harper defines the right, Obama would be slighty left-of-centre.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: bankley
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 11:32 AM

He's a relief after GWB but I remain sceptical. I don't turn my socks inside out and call it 'change'. His choice of Rahn Israel Emanuel for chief of staff is disconcerting to say the least. He'll want to draw Canada into a longer committment in Afghanistan and quite likely Pakistan. He'll be tested early on (Biden's prediction) and will have to hit hard to show resolve.
Time will tell, we won't have to wait that long to see the true colours. Criticizing him will be tricky, much the same way that any critic of Israel's policies is usually smeared as a racist, deserving or not.
I wish him the best, he's inherited a mess and I really hope that in a few years we're not looking back on the Bush-era as the 'good old days'

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: bobad
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 11:20 AM

And don't forget those "u"s youse.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 11:17 AM

We do our best, eh? ;-) It's part of maintaining our distinct identity.

For instance, we call the last letter of the alphabet "zed", not "zee".

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:03 AM

"It's fascinating (and extraordinary) that so many Americans see Obama as a "leftist", because here is how he rates in a Canadian or Western European sense: somewhat to the right of center."

Interesting. You Canadians seem to have different words for everything!!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: Arkie
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:12 PM

One thing that really please me in this election is that Obama stuck to his guns and talked about issues. He listened to McCain's tirades and smiled and went back to issues. He did criticize some of McCain's proposals on the issues but did not attack McCain or Palin though there was plenty he could have said had he chosen to do so. He also trusted the American voters. He trusted that they would listen to him, would evaluate the issues and respond to a positive approach to politics. While McCain and Palin talked maverick, their distortions, unfounded attacks approach to taxes and health care were the same old thing. We had one candidate talking trust and hope and one practicing deceit and promoting fear. Obama's trust in the intelligence and good will of the people paid off. I would like to have seen a greater popular vote majority but I think that the majority Obama had was greater than any Bush campaign. I do not know how much corportate support Obama may have had, but I think a huge portion of the money available to him came from little folk like my self who responded to appeals for $5 with periodic checks for $5 and more.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: MAG
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:25 PM

As a garden variety socialist myself, I understand the difference between radical and liberal, however progressive. Most Americans do not.

With the coming and going of the millenium, I am hoping those who say "liberal" with a sneer will retreat to the frings where they belong, the republicans will return to the center of their range, and a National Health Plan, which we desperately need, will begin to happen.

This creeping socialist wished it would creep a lot faster.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:48 PM

Of course if he does a good job the result will be that millions of people will start thinking of labels like "liberal" and "socialist" (however inappropriate) as favourable.

"If that's being a liberal (or a Socialist), I think I like it."

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:47 PM

"The irony of it all is that the segment of the population that has given the present administration its greatest voter support is the one hurt the most by the direction the government has taken."

It is exactly the same in Canada! The people most hurt by neo-conservative inspired legislation in the last 25 or more years here have been the very constituency who (along with the rich) most strongly supported neo-conservative policy-makers at the polls. And who are those people? They are the most poorly educated and financially disadvantaged members of the white working poor and lower middle class. They are among the people who can least afford the neo-conservative cutbacks, but in their ignorance they are supporting the very people who enact those measures...due to unreal fears of one sort or another.

In Canada, however, this constituency is a good deal smaller than in the USA and they have had far less effect on the political process.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:34 PM

Regarding the first post, there are Americans who consider Obama liberal but most of that comes from political opponents trying to discredit him. When asked about that he smiled and said it must be because he voted against so many of the Bush sponsored legislation efforts. He was labeled during the campaign as the most liberal in Congress. There has been a faction of some sort at work for over a decade trying to brainwash citizens into thinking Liberal is one of the worst labels you can put on a person. And it has worked among a segment of our population. The word "Socialist" was also used a lot in the campaign because that is another term that is being demonized by the radical right. The irony of it all is that the segment of the population that has given the present administration its greatest voter support is the one hurt the most by the direction the government has taken. But the Bush camp has appealed to this group's fears and prejudices and capitalized on strong anti-abortion sentiment by pushing their buttons. A local minister who holds a frightening power over his congregation proclaimed that Obama was the anti-Christ. We have our own version of militant Islamic clerics. I am glad to know how the situation is perceived in Canada and to see our country's young voters responding to issues. Certainly a good sign for the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:41 PM

Ha! ;-) Well, I've heard good things about Newfoundlanders.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:28 PM

I was asking JtS' father (Skipper Bob) what the difference was between a Conservative and a Liberal in Newfoundland (he calls himself a Conservative). He listed a bunch of characteristics of both categories and they were pretty much exactly the same. But he said that he was against Confederation. So I asked him if that was what was different between the Conservatives and Liberals in Newfoundland, and he thought about it a minute, and then said, yes, he believed that was it.

;-)

He still doesn't consider himself to be a Canadian. He says his nationality is Newfoundlander.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:00 PM

I think there is, Carol, but in Canada the issues are not so clearly defined for the most part. There is a profound sense of disillusionment here with ALL the old political parties...a sense that no matter who you elect, the same basic things end up happening.

Older people are still clinging to their longtime party loyalties, while young people are looking for something different. If the high school students had the government they favored, according to national polls, the Green Party would have won the last election! This did not translate into the Green Party winning any seats in the real election.

There is also the peculiar situation here where the conservatives have only about 40% of public support, but they win elections...because their opposition is split into 4 different parties. Imagine what would happen if the Democratic Party were to fracture into 3 or 4 different parties in the USA, and you get the picture.

Given that situation, the conservatives still failed to secure a majority of seats in parliament in the last 3 elections....but they did secure a plurality (more seats than any other single party). That makes them the government.

A bit bizarre, isn't it? ;-) The only part of the country where they have a definite majority of popular support is in Alberta and Saskatchewan (which correspond roughly to your western states in the central part of the USA...and those usually vote Republican).

In a 2 party system here, the Conservatives would have lost the last 3 elections by a very significant margin.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:34 PM

I was just listening to the Mayor of Newark, NJ talking about the direction he sees the country moving in with regard to party politics. He was saying that the younger generations seem to be more issue oriented and less party oriented (I'm not a part of the younger generations, but I feel that way myself, and I'm encouraged to hear him say that). He said in the US today, it's no longer about "right or left", but about "forward or backward". I suspect this would describe Obama as well.

Is there any kind of similar trend in Canada at this point in time?

Subject: BS: Canadian views on Obama's politics....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 04:32 PM

It's fascinating (and extraordinary) that so many Americans see Obama as a "leftist", because here is how he rates in a Canadian or Western European sense: somewhat to the right of center.

Despite this, he is seen as tremendously preferable to McCain or Bush or Cheney, etc! So people in Canada and Europe are delighted that he has been elected. It signals a step in a better direction as far as we are concerned, and we hope for the best.

Here's a great article in today's Toronto Star to demonstrate what I'm talking about:

Canadian view of Barack Obama

The article is written by Rosie DiManno, one of Canada's foremost columnists. I would describe her as a tough "conservative" liberal in Canadian terms. That is, she writes for a liberal newspaper, but she tends to write from a rather conservative "tough love" mindset. For example, she has enthusiastically backed the Iraq war from day 1, while our government chose not to get involved in it and not to support it, and our public in general looked askance at the whole thing. I agree with Rosie DiManno about half the time. She's smart, tough, stubborn, and opinionated. I would not know whether to describe her as "liberal" or "conservative", because she just doesn't fully fit either description.