BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:10 AM

Well...I do, do my homework........(from great sources, too)

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Genie
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:44 PM

Ya THINK, Richard? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:59 AM

Those seem to me to be loaded questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:08 AM

So: Everybody's dumbed-down except you, then, I suppose?

(Actually, I feel that way myself often enough; I suppose I shouldn't criticize...)

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:40 PM

I guess the moral of the story is, everybody voting is a dummy, and pointing fingers at each other for being one!! What did you all expect?? Why teach stupid things in school, like HISTORY, and reading...let's just make sure the little brats have a good opinion of their 'self esteem' ..What a joke!!!!!
The public has been dumbed down...and this election was not about qualified candidates..but then, who would know it??????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:34 PM

I think the most significant difference between the ignorance displayed by some Obama voters, versus that of some McCain voters, is that only one side actively encouraged such ignorance, willfully promulgated misinformation, and deliberately stirred up hatred based upon half-truths and untruths.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Genie
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:38 AM

Poppagator, you make an excellent point about many McCain supporters being ignorant on a lot of issues too.

For example, I wonder how many McCain supporters would correctly answer questions about:
a) William Ayers's involvement in the killing of any people as part of the Weather Underground
b) the nature of most of Jeremiah Wright's sermons, or the humanitarian work his church was engaged in
c) what the name "Hussein" means and whether having that name implies anything about being Muslim or not
d) whether Obama was in any way implicated in the activities for which Tony Rezko was indicted
e) how Obama's "experience" compared to that of Presidents such as Lincoln, GW Bush, Harry Truman, and Theodore Roosevelt before they became President
f) whether Obama, in answering "Joe The Plumber's" question at that rally talked about "redistributing the wealth."

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Genie
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:27 AM

ETA: I think most of the negative things we said about Bush between Nov. 2000 and Jan. 2001 had to do with the tactics used to stop the vote count in Florida than any policies Bush himself proposed as President.   And the dissent over those tactics was aimed as much at other Republicans (Katherine Harris, Jeb Bush, Ted Olson, and republican operatives who went to Florida to stage 'demonstrations' and try to slow down the vote count) as at Dubya himself.
I, for one, was sadly disappointed when Bush finally announced some of his cabinet choices -- e.g., Gale Norton for Interior - after he took office. And even then, the real disappointment set in once I saw their policy decisions in action.   Norton, for example, could talk a good game re caring about the environment, but her decisions always favored industry with little or no regard to environmental concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:27 AM

From: Genie
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:18 AM

I'd add that I don't think Mudcatters are a representative sample of Obama supporters.

Right you are!!!....at least I'm not! His supporters are rather wemotionally frenetic in their zeal..more noted for their enthusiasm than his abilities warrant....oh well, time will tell...

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Genie
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:18 AM

B. Bruce: [["I will accept no complaints about how I comment on Obama from those that commented in a like fashion about Bush.]]

Are you looking at comments posted here about Bush a month or more before he even took office?
I'd say the vast majority of really negative evaluations of Dubya came after he was well into his first term.

I'd add that I don't think Mudcatters are a representative sample of Obama supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 04:08 PM

Can there be any doubt that supporters of both tickets included a mixutre of the well-informed and the woefully ignorant?

There are a lot of dumb people out there, and no politician of any persuasion would, or should, refuse their votes.

Couldn't a different set of questions be assembled to "prove" that those who voted for McCain/Palin were the more ignorant group?

For example:

Sen. Obama is a Muslim: true or false?

Not only was a significant portion of the GOP voting block ignorant of the correct answer, they were actively persuaded of such untruths by varous robocallers, etc., who may not have had any official connection to the campaign or the party, but who were participating in the contest for their own reasons. The dumb and gullible were, and will continue to be, the ripest targets for such dirty tricks.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:35 PM

IF you really mean to say that fairness requires a parallel treatment of Bush and Obama, given the highly dubious methods of the 2000 election and the vicious extremes of partisan crookery that were involved, compared to Obama's conduct in his campaign, you are being disingenuous, without even going into their platforms and policies.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:20 PM

I refer to the way Bush was talked about after the 2000 election. Before he was in office, as well. Go back and look.

Ain't you sillier.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 02:21 PM

Good God, bb. If Bush had done a half-decent job - even from your own perspective! - we wouldn't have talked about him as we did and do. On the other hand, Obama has not even begun to govern.

Ain't you silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:06 PM

"I think a lot of other Democrats, progressives, etc., did too. "


Not if I judge by the postings here, which is what I was refering to.

I will accept no complaints about how I comment on Obama from those that commented in a like fashion about Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:51 AM

Speaking of "more of the same"...

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:01 AM

Right on rig...except for just one thing.....his will be problematic, unless he undoes the powers heaped on the executive branch(by Bush)...and returns to Constitutional checks and balances, protects the borders, and prosecutes the swindlers on wall street...and that's just for starters!!...He won't, though. He really is, just more of the same.. working toward the changing of our system, to something our founders revolted against!

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Genie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:55 PM

Actually, Bruce, as pissed of as I was about the way Dubya became President (note that I do not say "was elected") in 2000, I gave him the benefit of the doubt at first, with his talk about being "a uniter, not a divider" and caring about education and the environment, etc. I think a lot of other Democrats, progressives, etc., did too.   Some of his early decisions, like choosing Colin Powell as Sec. of State, didn't seem that bad.   I don't think Bush's opponents in their wildest dreams imagined the disaster his Presidency was going to be. We formed our really negative opinions based on the policies and actions we saw AFTER he took office.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:28 PM

"'Rig, why not wait till the guy's sworn in before declaring his Presidency "problematic?'"


                Genie - I don't think his presidency will be problematic, necessarily. I'm just concerned about the informative level of the American electorate.
                         I certainly don't think McCain/Palin would have been a better choice, though there might have been better choices out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:57 PM

More disturbing results:

*Nearly 70% of Republicans did not know which candidate could chug a bottle of beer in 15 seconds.

*Three in five Republicans could not name the candidate who fell asleep during the most roll call votes.

* Neither Democrats nor Republicans knew which of the four candidates had the largest shoe size.

*Most startling, 87% of respondents thought that "Zogby" was the name of a character on "Blues Clues"

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:49 PM

Hopefully, Obama will not follow the example set for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:08 PM

Hey, we just want to treat him the same way the Bush was treated.... Aren't we supposed to look at the example that others have set?

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Genie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:06 PM

Rig, why not wait till the guy's sworn in before declaring his Presidency "problematic?"

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 09:00 PM

And it agreed with the Zogby Poll. That's the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 08:50 PM

Seems to me that there was one pretty definitive poll...........early this November.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 08:18 PM

"Since you are well aware that Obama 'blabs' less than just about any other public [official?] you can name..."


                   And that's what makes a lot of us nervous!

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:31 PM

My Dearest Sweet Ebbie,

    I've called him a lot worse..which he deserves, but to be polite, on here, Oblabbo sufficed well.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:25 PM

"The Obama campaign was relying on the politically disenfranchised(with the Bush regime) and the ignorant!" Guest from Sanity

Well, I'll be damned GfS does know his name. I was charitably prepared to believe that it had escaped his/her mind.

So more slack cut for you, GtS. Since you are well aware that Obama 'blabs' less than just about any other public you can name - certainly you would qualify for the title - you have no excuse left for not calling him by his rightful name.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:19 PM

The Zogby statement says, in part:

We were hired to test public opinion on a particular subject and with no ax to grind, that's exactly what we did. We don't have to agree or disagree with the questions, we simply ask them and provide the client with a fair and accurate set of data reflecting public opinion."

This may be fairly glossed as "We're just hired guns, with no ax to grind. The client gives us a bunch of questions, and it's not our function to agree or disagree with them; we ask the client's questions no matter how slanted they are."

Which I suppose is to be expected. Who would hire an agent to ask their questions if the agent was going to disobey the instructions given and spoil the impression the poll was designed to make?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:44 PM

Horseshit!! The Obama campaign was relying on the politically disenfranchised(with the Bush regime) and the ignorant!

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Genie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 06:13 PM

Poppagator, a push poll is still a push poll, no matter when it's done.   Not very effective as election strategy, granted, if done right after a major election. But it's still an attempt to MOLD opinion instead of just measuring it.   It can also be an attempt to propagate lies and distorted perceptions.

And if you think Obama's opponents are done trying to tear down his image and cripple his effectiveness just because he's the President elect, HA!!

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 04:10 PM

I fail to see the point of all this at all. People vote for many reasons, and this test is obviously geared to a bunch of no-longer relevant issues such as who said what to whom when during a heated campaign. What the hell difference does any of this make? I think it is a granfalloon--a thin skin covering a large volume of warm nothing.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: Genie
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 03:25 PM

Good points, Art.

This "poll" is at worst a "push poll" (attempting to start or validate rumors by imbedding them in a "scientific survey question) and at best a poll attempted by someone not too well informed about the facts.

"Most (56%) were also not able to correctly answer that Obama started his political career at the home of two former members of the Weather Underground."
Obama did not "start his political career" in the Ayers home. Ayers was one of about a dozen people who held coffees in their homes to raise money for Obama's campaign.

"Nearly three quarters (72%) of Obama voters did not correctly identify Biden as the candidate who had to quit a previous campaign for President because he was found to have plagiarized a speech,"
This, too, embeds an inaccuracy in the "question."   I'm not sure Biden "had to quit" any previous campaign; if he did "have to quit," it was no doubt because -- as it almost always is with candidates -- he couldn't afford the $$ to keep going.   The "plagiarism" allegation did contribute to the failure of his campaign, but it did not force him out of that race.
More importantly, Biden was never "found to have plagiarized a speech."   He did quote one source without acknowledging the source, but it was just a few words, not even close to being the whole "speech." The media blew the whole thing way out of proportion.

"... nearly half (47%) did not know that Biden was the one who predicted Obama would be tested by a generated international crisis during his first six months as President."
Well, Biden didn't say McCain would NOT be so tested, did he?
And how much attention did the media pay to John McCain's buddy Joe Liberman's own statement that the next President - whoever won - would be tested by an international crisis? How many McCain supporters would have known that?

" ... the 12-question, multiple-choice survey also included a question asking which political party controlled both houses of Congress leading up to the election -- 57% of Obama voters were unable to correctly answer that Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate."
"... leading up to the election?" During what time frame? The Democrats had the majority in the Senate only since January, 2007, while the Republicans did for 5-6 years before that.
And in an important sense the Democrats still don't "control" the Senate, since Senate Republicans have filibustered an unprecedent # of bills, including those that had bipartisan majority support; when filibuster use is so rampant, the "majority" party can't "control" the Senate when they're only in the majority by 1 member.

An unbiased political survey would have worded things in a less loaded fashion and probably avoided throwing around terms like "scandal" as well.   There's a difference between a verbal gaffe, an unsubstantiated allegation, or the simple use of legal politial hardball, on the one hand, and "scandal" on the other.   There was never any real "scandal" brought to life about Obama, no matter how hard the Karl Rovian Republicans tried to find or make one. (Similarly, some of the "scandals" surrounding the Palin family seem to have been manufactured or at least grossly distorted.)

And has it occurred to anyone that maybe one reason a lot of Obama supporters aren't up on the latest "scandal" charges against the Democrats is that they get their news from sources like the NY Times, C-Span, and perhaps NPR, etc., instead of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh and his ilk?

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 03:02 PM

"...cherry-pick the questions, to select things that were very well known about (or implied about) the Republicans and very old news or very obscure about the Democrats."

Absolutely! The ONLY reason this did not function as a "push poll" is that it took place after the election, when any "push" effect would be essentially moot.

Insofar as exposure to the poll results might prejudice a reader against the already-elected candidate, I think that it definitely does intend a negative effect upon Obama.

Mr Zogby's protestations about this particular poll's "objectivity" and "fairness" simply cannot be taken seriously. If he were dumb enough to actually believe the blather he's mouthing, he would never have achieved his current level of success.

Now, I'll concede this much: a good-size chuck of the pro-Obama voting public consisted of young, first-time voters ~ and many of them are poorly informed citizens. Not all of them ~ some youngsters, particularly those deeply involved as volunteers, have been very knowledgeable. But that's not necessarily true of many young folks whose involvement was limited to showing up one day to cast a ballot.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 02:43 PM

Those who were koo-koo over Oblabbo, remind me of those who were koo-koo over Bush(and some still are). Despite all the evidence that these guys are corrupt, and bought off, as they are, to the naively blind, they seem to walk on water. Meanwhile, the rabid supporters just froth at the mouth, at how wonderful they are. I call it, 'suicidal, and proud of it'!

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:58 PM

Yep, Obama was able to find enough invalid names on petitions in a 1996 election to eliminate 4 other Democratic Party candidates. Big deal - I expect that the other candidates would have eliminated him if any of his signatures were invalid. Why should someone other than a student of Chicago politics ever remember this - or care?   

Yep, Obama said in an interview with the San Francisco Chronicle that anyone who wanted to build a coal-fired plant would find themselves bankrupt under the new cap-and-trade rules, and somehow left out the part that was in his other statements about the basic intent of these rules was to encourage the use of new clean-coal technology. Why should somebody who didn't see that specific interview or who ever saw, heard or read anything else he said on coal associate that statement with him?

Yep, one of many people who hosted community "meet the candidate" forums was a person who, many years before, belonged to the Weather Underground. Guilt by association, with someone who he was never really associated with? Humbug.

It all sounds like sour grapes to me, and is Zogby implying that John Ziegler, a well known right-wing talk show host, didn't help them cherry-pick the questions, to select things that were very well known about (or implied about) the Republicans and very old news or very obscure about the Democrats. Also humbug.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:55 PM

Well that explains it all!!! I wonder if they only polled Mudcatters if the results would have been any better...judging from a lot of the naive crap that was said on here during the elections! Oblabbo was about hype and media attention, more the any real substance. McCain supporters did much better, but who else could they turn to, to vote for??...(Actually there were better people running, but, the paid for media didn't want you to know about them..or the issues they were addressing)... I know, I know....you'll start ragging on me again...just because I told you the truth...AGAIN!!!...WAIT!!..Let's all join in on another chorus of Kumbayah...Amos, got your pitch pipe?? Twe-e-e-e-t.....all together now......Mi Mi MI......

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:21 PM

Zogby has said many times that he is a registered Democrat, of Arab extraction, and that he voted for Obama in the recent election.

He has also claimed that he does not let his personal prejudices affect his objectivity.

"We stand by the results our survey work on behalf of John Ziegler, as we stand by all of our work. We reject the notion that this was a push poll because it very simply wasn't. It was a legitimate effort to test the knowledge of voters who cast ballots for Barack Obama in the Nov. 4 election. Push polls are a malicious effort to sway public opinion one way or the other, while message and knowledge testing is quite another effort of public opinion research that is legitimate inquiry and has value in the public square. In this case, the respondents were given a full range of responses and were not pressured or influenced to respond in one way or another. This poll was not designed to hurt anyone, which is obvious as it was conducted after the election. The client is free to draw his own conclusions about the research, as are bloggers and other members of society. But Zogby International is a neutral party in this matter. We were hired to test public opinion on a particular subject and with no ax to grind, that's exactly what we did. We don't have to agree or disagree with the questions, we simply ask them and provide the client with a fair and accurate set of data reflecting public opinion." - John Zogby

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 01:07 PM

Zogby does surveys for hire, and pickins are pretty lean after an election.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 12:10 PM

"Most (56%) were also not able to correctly answer that Obama started his political career at the home of two former members of the Weather Underground.

I would have "missed" that "correct answer" myself. Of course, I would have easily guessed that the question was being posed by a right-wing sleazemonger, and that the answer that was expected would, indeed, have been Obama.

Whatever Bill Ayers has been doing since his Weatherman days, he's apparently managed to become an acceptable participant in the public life of Chicago, serving on various boards with all kinds of movers and shakers, including plenty of rich folks and more Republicans than Democrats.

If there were ever an example of a "poll" that is intrinsically biased, based upon the selection of questions, this is one. The folks at Zogby need to get a freakin' life, and not be such poor losers. Get over it!!!! And for crying out loud, use your excess energy and your public platform to support the new President in his onerous task of undoing a whole lot of stupidity and malfeasance!

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:54 AM

I would not have gotten a perfect score either.

I assummed that only the blithering idiot Biden could have said "I campaigned in all 57 states".

Nope, it was Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: MarkS
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:32 AM

The numbers would probably be close if asked of the McCain supporters as well. This poll merely reflects the sad state of civic
involvement in this country.

Subject: BS: Zogby poll on Obama fans
From: pdq
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:12 AM

Released: November 18, 2008

Zogby Poll: Almost No Obama Voters Ace Election Test

Survey finds most Obama voters remembered negative coverage of McCain/Palin statements but struggled to correctly answer questions about coverage associated with Obama/Biden

UTICA, New York -- Just 2% of voters who supported Barack Obama on Election Day obtained perfect or near-perfect scores on a post election test which gauged their knowledge of statements and scandals associated with the presidential tickets during the campaign, a new Zogby International telephone poll shows.

Only 54% of Obama voters were able to answer at least half or more of the questions correctly.

The 12-question, multiple-choice survey found questions regarding statements linked to Republican presidential candidate John McCain and his vice-presidential running-mate Sarah Palin were far more likely to be answered correctly by Obama voters than questions about statements associated with Obama and Vice-President–Elect Joe Biden. The telephone survey of 512 Obama voters nationwide was conducted Nov. 13-15, 2008, and carries a margin of error of +/- 4.4 percentage points. The survey was commissioned by John Ziegler, author of The Death of Free Speech, producer of the recently released film "Blocking the Path to 9/11" and producer of the upcoming documentary film, Media Malpractice...How Obama Got Elected.

"After I interviewed Obama voters on Election Day for my documentary, I had a pretty low opinion of what most of them had picked up from the media coverage of the campaign, but this poll really proves beyond any doubt the stunning level of malpractice on the part of the media in not educating the Obama portion of the voting populace," said Ziegler.

Ninety-four percent of Obama voters correctly identified Palin as the candidate with a pregnant teenage daughter, 86% correctly identified Palin as the candidate associated with a $150,000 wardrobe purchased by her political party, and 81% chose McCain as the candidate who was unable to identify the number of houses he owned. When asked which candidate said they could "see Russia from their house," 87% chose Palin, although the quote actually is attributed to Saturday Night Live's Tina Fey during her portrayal of Palin during the campaign. An answer of "none" or "Palin" was counted as a correct answer on the test, given that the statement was associated with a characterization of Palin.

Obama voters did not fare nearly as well overall when asked to answer questions about statements or stories associated with Obama or Biden -- 83% failed to correctly answer that Obama had won his first election by getting all of his opponents removed from the ballot, and 88% did not correctly associate Obama with his statement that his energy policies would likely bankrupt the coal industry. Most (56%) were also not able to correctly answer that Obama started his political career at the home of two former members of the Weather Underground.

Nearly three quarters (72%) of Obama voters did not correctly identify Biden as the candidate who had to quit a previous campaign for President because he was found to have plagiarized a speech, and nearly half (47%) did not know that Biden was the one who predicted Obama would be tested by a generated international crisis during his first six months as President.

In addition to questions regarding statements and scandals associated with the campaigns, the 12-question, multiple-choice survey also included a question asking which political party controlled both houses of Congress leading up to the election -- 57% of Obama voters were unable to correctly answer that Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate.

(11/18/2008)