BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Lanfranc
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:35 PM

Cain slew Abel Seth knew not why
For if the children of Israel were to multiply
Why must any of the children die?
So he asked the Lord
And the Lord said:

"Man means nothing he means less to me
Than the lowliest cactus flower
Or the humblest yucca tree
He chases round this desert
'Cause he thinks that's where I'll be
That's why I love mankind"

Randy Newman's "God's Song"

If only they could take God out of the equation...

How ironic that two faiths whose greeting is "Peace be with you" seem incapable of co-existence. The Muslims managed to live peacefully alongside Jews and Christians in Spain during their rule there, and someone will have to find a way to achieve it in Palestine, and sooner rather than later.

There is stupidity and cruelty on both sides of this conflict, but the parallels between the recent conduct and consequent excuses of the Israelis and those of Hitler's Germany are stark.

A British Jewish MP, Gerald Kaufman, has something to say that is worth listening to - see BBC Parliament broadcast

I despair of either side ever coming to their senses.

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:31 PM

You do not determine "righteousness" by lieing about the people killed, either.

Very true indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:09 PM

But God is on our side, ain't He???

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:05 AM

The United Nations Relief Agency has suspended all humanitarian relief operations in Gaza after one of its aid convoys was strafed and an UNRA worker killed by Israeli fire.
This on top of UN schools and facilites attacked and wrecked by the invading Israeli military.
An UNRA spokesman said earlier today that aid work will only resume after Israel gives full assurances that it will not attack UNRA or its workers.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:53 AM

You do not determine "righteousness" by lieing about the people killed, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:44 AM

"You do not determine "righteousness" by counting the number of casualties!!!"

"You do not determine "righteousness" by counting the number of casualties!!!"

"You do not determine "righteousness" by counting the number of casualties!!!"


Ok....I give up. You will continue to count, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:38 AM

"From the reports I have seen across the networks the majority seem to be women and children."

Then the networks are telling you a lie, since the UN, using the PALESTINIAN statistics, says otherwise.





"Israel has so far lost about 11 people killed the majority are soldiers killed during the invasion some by friendly fire."

True- but the "majority" of Gazans killed have been Hamas militants or other combatants- 30% OF BOTH SIDES casualties have been civilians.



"Nearly a third of the deaths -- 30 percent -- are women and children, according to the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, citing statistics released Tuesday by the Palestinian Ministry of Health."

Seven Israeli soldiers and three civilians have been killed since the operation began, the Israeli military reported"

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:31 AM

To BeardedBruce

Some 600 plus Palestinians have been killed so far in the bombibg and shelling.From the reports I have seen across the networks the majority seem to be women and children.There are some ghastly,horrific, photographs of slaughtered   children on numerous websites so obviously the Israeli war secret is out and across the world.

Around 3000 people have been seriously wounded or maimed .The morgues and hospitals are overflowing.

Israel stands accused of breaking international laws against the collective punishment of civilians.Its reputation is plunging.

Israel has so far lost about 11 people killed the majority are soldiers killed during the invasion some by friendly fire.

Gaza is a city of one and a half million people ..you obviously know about the power plants,roads clinics , university,bridges ,schools,sewage plants apartment blocks and market that have been destroyed by artillery shells or missiles.

It is a sick joke to claim ,as some do, that this is a battle between Israel and Hamas.This is an all out war waged against the Palestinian people of Gaza.

Most Gazans are eiher refugees directly from what is now Israel or the children or grandchildren of refugees.Some have seen their homes blown up several times over by the Israelis [most of whom were either born outside Israel or are the children or grandchildren of settlers who were born outside Israel ].

On saturday there will be a demonstration in support of Gaza and the Palestinians in central London.It will be massive. There are anti war people in Israel who are speaking out in the face of much intimidation by the pro war zionists and I greatly admire their courage in going up against the pro war murder lobby.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:25 AM

"Mommy! He hit me BACK harder than I hit him!"

Cynical? Me?....naawwwwwww

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardebruce
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 09:41 AM

"Nearly a third of the deaths -- 30 percent -- are women and children, according to the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, citing statistics released Tuesday by the Palestinian Ministry of Health."

Seven Israeli soldiers and three civilians have been killed since the operation began, the Israeli military reported"


So, the Gazans have killed 30% civilians? Sounds like they have to be deliberatly targeting them, since when Israeli forces kill 30% civilians it is proof that they are....

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:48 AM

Me thinks that Israel is in the midst of winning every battle but in a real danger of loosing this war...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 04:50 AM

The intended attack on the houses at Rafeh was quoted by avery concerned BBC correspondent on the Gaza /Rafeh border last night.
The BBC reporter whose house was blown up, informed his colleagues outside Gaza about his house and the leaflets and the intention to attack the neighbourhood today.
Furthermore, a charity worker for Care International was also killed along with his son yesterday when their house was blown up by an Israeli shell.This was reported by the charity and printed in the Guardian.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:19 PM

So farr ten IDF personnel have been killed in this invasion. Four of these were killed by Israeli weaponry meticulously targetted at Hamas militants...

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 05:06 PM

I could suggest a new definition/example of ∞ (that's an infinity symbol for those who can't see it)

My mother used to quote a Cajun neighbor lady in New Orleans.."Iffn somebody does me somethin', I'll stay up all night thinkin' of somethin' to do 'em back!"

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 04:03 PM

Perhaps you could suggest a method by which the military targets hiding in heavily populated areas, hiding behind civilians, can be destroyed without hitting some civilians?   


Or are IDF forces supposed to die from morter attacks, without firing back, until the "right" number of them have been killed to be fair? And how many would that be?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:58 PM

" Except that those rockets are so inaccurate that wouldn't work. Which is why they are so much less effective at killing people than the IDF's weaponry."


Which is why, as terrorist weapons aimed at civilians they are outlawed by civilized nations. They serve no military purpose, and are only used for terror. Strictly forbidden by the Geneva conventions.




"Rocket fire has fallen off somewhat as Israeli troops tighten their hold on Gaza, taking over open areas used to launch rockets, but Gaza residents say militants are still launching from heavily populated areas. "

Also a violation, to use heavily populated areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

Perhaps you could suggest a method by which leaflets about incoming rockets could be delivered, bruce.   By a preliminary rocket perhaps? Except that those rockets are so inaccurate that wouldn't work. Which is why they are so much less effective at killing people than the IDF's weaponry.

Even during the ceasefire more Palestinians were killed by Israeli attacks than Israelis were killed by Hamas rockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

ifor,

The raffah crossing point- into Egypt, where the tunnels are?

Are you claiming that the tunnels that Hamas uses to bring in rockets and explosives are "civilian targets"?


Show me the leaflets that Hamas has dropped on Israel warning where their rockets were going to hit, please.

If not, your comments are not worth the effort of reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 02:53 PM

The BBC s Gaza correspondent who lives near the Raffeh crossing point has learnt that his house along with several others has been destroyed by Israeli bombs or shells.
Even more alarmingly the Israeli have dropped thousands of leafletts in that area of southern Gaza ordering the residents out of their homes by tomorrow because they are to be attacked by the Israeli military.
Israel has used a wide range of deadly weapons including tank shells,one tonne bombs and white phospherous against civilian targets and there is speculation that it may be considering using a giant thermobaric bomb against the Raffeh neighbourhood.
Israel seems to be going for broke with its war crimes against the people of Gaza with several hundred children killed and many others maimed and mutilated through rocket,bomb and artillery attacks by the Israeli Defence Force.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:34 AM

Still waiting.



http://www.adl.org/terrorism/listofattacks.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 08:31 AM

NOTE THE DATE!

Israel allowing rocket attacks on Jews?
Olmert restricts military from stopping missile onslaughts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 04, 2006
11:55 am Eastern


By Aaron Klein
© 2009 WorldNetDaily.com


JERUSALEM – The Israeli Defense Forces has been instructed by the government here not to open fire or take any action against militants who are discovered launching rockets into the Jewish state, senior military officials told WND today.

The officials said Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's security cabinet changed the IDF's rules of engagement after a cease-fire went into effect Nov. 26. Now, if Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are caught launching rockets at Jewish cities, the Israeli military is forbidden to respond, the military officials said.

Previously, the IDF used artillery units and aerial strikes against militants discovered in the process of launching rockets.

Since the truce was agreed to last week, about 20 rockets have been launched from Gaza into Jewish cities nearby.

IDF sources told WND the Israeli army several times the past few days identified militants about to launch rockets into Israel, but due to changed rules of engagement in response to the cease-fire, IDF forces were prohibited from taking out the rocket crews. For example, hours after the cease-fire was imposed, IDF units spotted seven Palestinians in Gaza setting up rocket launchers. Three rockets were then fired into Israel.

"There is nothing we can do about the rocket attacks. It's only a matter of time before an Israeli is killed," said an IDF official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to media.

Olmert today told the Knesset his government would react with restraint to continuing Qassam attacks, saying Israel was hoping to give the cease-fire a chance to develop into further steps toward what he called a "peace process."

"We will fully explore every possibility that can lead to momentum to begin a diplomatic process, and so we are now giving the truce a chance," Olmert told the Knesset parliament's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53219



How long were they SUPPOSED to wait for the rockets to stop?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:48 AM

Have you noticed how this dreadful carnage going on in Gaza and Israel has put MUGABE on the back pages. Lucky him!!
Also, unless I am mistaken, I do not hear the voice of China and other far Asian nations expressing their desire to see a cessation.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 07:34 AM

If you want the support of the United Nations, most of the world, and the Western media, the formula is quite simple. All you have to do is as follows:

1. Start by having a founding document that has as its central purpose the perpetration of genocide.

2. Then attack your neighboring country by firing rockets at the civilian population, in violation of international law.

3. Hide your rockets and other terrorist equipment in homes and other location where there are many civilians, to maximize the death and injury count when lawful and necessary defensive measures are taken to neutralize your illegal activity, another violation of international law. When your own people are thus murdered by your own acts, you can use it for propaganda purposes.

You can be sure the Western media will run as many pictures of the dead and injured (for which you are responsible) in a fashion designed to generate sympathy for your position, and that same Western media will be largely uninterested in the civilian casualties caused in the neighboring country by your terrorism.

4. Exaggerate and lie at every opportunity to inflate the number of civilian casualties in your own land (for which you are responsible by hiding military facilities in civilian locations). That's for the benefit of the Western media, which will of course publish and eat up any exaggeration or fabrication you care to pass along. Even if you have a long history of exaggerating and lying on such matters as civilian casualties, the Western media will continue to take your claims at face value.

5. When your neighbor responds to your illegal, genocidal attacks, appeal to the U.N. and world opinion for a cease-fire so you can rearm and get ready to slaughter and murder civilians in new ways and with greater ferocity, as soon as you want to end the cease-fire.

6. Instead of building your own economy and helping your own people, put all your resources into terrorist attacks against your neighbor and divert the humanitarian aid that flows into your land to your own program for genocide, aggression and terror.

7. When your economy turns sour — which it will do inevitably because your first priority is war and terror and not nation building, which is your last priority — and when it is further damaged by the measures of self-defense taken by your neighbor, claim there is a "humanitarian crisis" and a cease fire and more aid is urgently required.

8. Continue your endless attempts to slaughter and butcher civilians, including those of your neighbor and even those of your own people for propaganda purposes, and then claim any self-defense measures taken by your neighbor are "disproportionate."

9. Continue to violate every international law on the books, making a mockery not only of law but also of the most basic precepts of humanity and civilization, and then claim your neighbor, who is compelled to act in self-defense, is committing "war crimes."

By now, I'm sure you know this memo was a precise description of Hamas and its genocidal campaign against Israel, and the reaction of the United Nations, of much of world opinion and of the nations of the world, and of the Western media. To say what is happening is outrageous is a gross understatement, and stronger terms must be resorted to, such as an outbreak of international insanity. The world and the media seem to be on the side of genocide and terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 03:59 AM

Simon Assaf has an excellent article in this week's Socialist Worker [UK ]explaining Israel's recent terror tactics against Palestine.It can be read online.
He shows how time and time again Israel broke the recent ceasefire and rejected proposals from the Palestinians for a more lasting settlement.
The siege of Gaza even before the air attack and ground invasion meant terrible suffering for its poulation with power stations destroyed,food in scarce supply [some families reduced to eating grass ] manutrition,physchological damage ,water shortages and raw sewage in the street from collapsed pipes and damaged pumping stations.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:56 PM

I sure do miss scenes like this.

Sadat learned to be practical & reasonable.... look what it got him.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:47 PM

I wanta tell a little story here...

I was in the 8th grade and like 14 years old... Clarkie Crumbar was 17 and still in the 8th grade... In English class Clarkie Crumbar sucker puched me and blood went all over...

Ya' see, Clarkie Crumbar was 3 years older than any kid in the school and so he was the top bully...

So two weeks after he hit me I decided that ity was my turn so right there in gym class, where I figured that the gym tewachers would bust up a fight, I walked up to Clarkie and hit him as hard as I could in his face...

Well, he beat the crud outta me before the gym taechers could get him off me but guess what???

From then on I had the respect of the entire school, from teachers on down...

I am afraid that Israel has become the Clarkie Crumbar on the world's stage... Yeah, it can beat up folks but is that really serving it's interests???

I think not...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:00 PM

Well, heather...

Be that fact or fiction doesn't much matter 'cause Israel has all but lost the PR war here and Hamas is infinately stronger and better supported than before this...

Like I said, "stupid people"...

Israel clearly doesn't get it and will pay a price for what they are doing...

Stupid people...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:40 PM

Israel is a deeply racist state.Not only does it almost permanently attack the Palestinian refugees in all kinds of ways it is also discriminatory to those they call "Israeli arabs"who are Palestinians who live "legally" [and i use that in a guarded way ] in Israel.These Palestinian citizens make up 20 percent of the population but are kept in line by the Israeli state.

Moreover, the pre zionist Jewish community in Israel is also looked on in disfavour by those running the state who are often far more recent migrants [or the sons of migrants ] to Israel.

It must be very galling and indeed humiliating for a Palestinian grandad to be told to get out of his farm which his family have worked for generations , by some jumped up thug with an uzi who was born and raised in New York.

On the West Bank where tonight an Israeli spokesman claimed the Palestinians were being treated fairly we have seen Palestinians assassinated without warning by secret death squads. We have heard about Palestinian teenagers shot dead by rubber coated steel bullets.We have seen Palestinian villagers attacked in their homes by armed Israeli settlers while troops look on doing next to nothing. We have seen protestors against the Apartheid Wall being brutally beaten or attacked with staves and tear gas. We have see the Palestinian population of Hebron terrorised by armed thugs and so on.All this on the supposedly moderate West Bank.

However, even these awful crimes pale in comparison to the mass murder being committed in Gaza as a deliberate act of terror by the Israeli state.

The UN representatives are quite right to call for an INDEPENDENT investigation   into the killing of so many babies,children and civilians in the killing zone of Gaza.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:33 PM

Hey, folks lets get real here on what is happening and what ain't...

Are any of you folks watchin' what ahppens when when of these Iranian built rockets land in Israel??? Well, I'd ussgest you look at the TV pictures... Nor much at all happens... Might of fact, so little happens that the Israeli's are able to collect them and show them off...

Hmmmmmmmmm???

I mean, these things are like somethin; from the 1800's... Sure, if you got hits by one that wouldn't be all that good but they don't knock sown buildings and they don't kill many folks at all...

That is reality...

Should Hamas shoot off these primitive things??? Well, heck no they shouldn't...

Now faat forward to the TV pictures of entire building bombed to the ground in Gaza... Now that, my friens, is fire power... No junior high school kids science experiement here...

And what is the current score??? Israel 650 Hamas 8???

This is the real story so now for:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

                         The Conclusion

Israel has over reacted and it is costing Israel dearly in a PR campaign that Hamas seems now to be winning... Israel'sa ctions ahve made it neither more safe or more trusted around the world... Hamas has played Israel like dupes and Israel is acting like dupes... This will bnot help Israel in the long run but is a major setback for Israel and jews throughout the world...

Stupid people...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM

Why has Israel spent the last 8 months removing the cameras from the area?

What do they have to hide?

BBC journalists are reporting that the news blackout is a deliberate long term policy.

They have no doubt in their minds that this is part of a deliberate preparation for these events, which were planned long ago.


I am inclined to agree.


And as Israeli policy has been so deliberate in preventing access to information, it leaves me wonddering whether the Army's official line is true.


There is no need for a news blackout unless you have something to hide.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM

None of the Jews who left their countries of origin in the Middle East have any desire to return to those countries. If anyone can find some who do want to return, and they are not being allowed to by the governments of those countries, show me some documentation of their existence, and then we'll talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:02 PM

BTW, it should be noted that in the Mandate, it was never intended that the part that was to include the Jewish homeland should be a Jewish state with a permanent Jewish majority. It was only intended for that part of the mandated territory to be a place where Jews would have a home. European Jews were supposed to be able to live there with the indigenous inhabitants, but as equals and not as rulers. So if we're going by the Mandate plan, Israel has no right to exist whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 05:01 PM

CarolC,

The 1947 borders were REJECTED by the Arab league, and a war fought.


Should I now claim the boundaries of the CSA as of 1860, and insist that the US give up that land?

There were Arab Moslims who did NOT flee as refugees: Israel welcomed them. Were are the Arab Jews that were driven out of the Arab Moslim nations?


Like Pakistan and India, the intent of the British Empire was for the population exchange to balance out the individual losses: If the Arab Moslims want to have their original property, there must be equity: Thaos Jews driven out must be restored and THEIR rights respected. How many troops are you willing to support to insure that?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:56 PM

People whose minds are open to the concept of apartheid.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:35 PM

bb,

the site you linked to at "Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM" is excellent. Anyone with an open mind should check it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM

Israel currently occupies a much larger area than what it was given in the partition plan, and that's even before 1967...

http://www.mideastweb.org/palestine_partition_detail_map1947.jpg

Changing the subject of the rights of people to remain in their homes now will not work with me. What is needed is for Israel to complete the annexation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and give everyone currently living in those places, as well as in the rest of Israel, and their offspring, the same rights of citizenship and the exact same civil rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp


Waiting on more statements that black is white, bad is good, and reality is not important to the discussion.


The Mandate Palestine was part of the same treatieas that formed Iran, Syria, Turkey, and other countries in that region- Yet the Jewish state is the only one that is supposed to keep giving away its land to others.


Again, I ask you to look at the Moslim population of Israel, and the Jewuish population of the other nations- then tell me about how the present Palestinian refugees have rights that you have denied to the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:00 PM

My whole point in what I said about the targeting of Jews outside of Israel as opposed to the targeting of Palestinians outside of Palestine is that THE BEHAVIOR AND EVEN THE EXISTANCE OF ISRAEL AS A JEWISH STATE DOES NOT MAKE JEWS SAFER THAN THEY WOULD BE WITHOUT IT. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:58 PM

The people of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem do not have a state of their own on their own land, and the land that they are on is as much legally theirs as the land that Israel is on is legally Israel's. If Israel can use the United Nations as it's legal justification, so can the Palestinians, on top of the fact that those areas are also the Palestinians' by birthright.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:50 PM

To Bearded Bruce

The Israeli military command have always said a great deal of guff after committing the most terrible of war crimes.

They have blown up several schools during the past week or so but I remember other Israeli attacks and massacres from Qana to the refugee camps of Shatilla and Sabra.

Time and time again in other invasions the Israelis have dropped their massive bombs on women and children or have strafed fleeing refugees with missiles or have stood guard while their fascist allies have gone in to do the wet work with knives and bayonets and grenades.
I dont know how you can begin to defend or justify this crew of well armed,well funded and ever so well spoken baby killers.

This time around the mass murder is coming into our homes via non Israeli channels and no wonder that the Israeli military is so keen to keep coverage controlled and sanitised. The world is seeing picture after picture of scores of babies,infants,young kids , teenagers and old ladies maimed and murdered bu US made and Israeli delivered bombs,shells and missiles.

Let us not forget that these civilians are being penned in like cattle to be slaughtered .They do not have anywhere to go.Israel even controls the sea and beaches and is more than prepared to drop a shell or two onto civilians on the beaches of Gaza.And only last week an Israeli gunboat rammed a cabin cruiser the size of my bathroom laden with...yes wait for it, medical supplies for the victims of the Israeli Defence Force [by the way that in itself is a bit of a misnomerisn't it].

Gaza is a giant prison of over a million people and its borders are sealed ,and have been sealed for 18 months by Israel contrary to international law.Israel has been waging collective punishment against a civilian population.

Hey, but this is nothing new! The state of Israel was founded on the ethnic clearances of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people many of whom ended up in Gaza .They're still killing these refugees and their children and grandchildren.It was founded on stolen land,stolen farms,erased villages and the theft of whole cities.

In the process Palestinians were murdered en masse in places like Deir Yassin.


I recount these things not to convince you Bearded Bruce but to remind other Mudcatters of the terrible fate that has befallen the Palestinian people since their exile in 1948.
Free Palestine!
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:27 PM

"I haven't heard any reports of Palestinians being targeted outside of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem, "

Yet the attacks on Jews ????


Seems like there is a slight bias being shown in the rest of the world, since it is claimed that Hamas is being criticised as well- Just very quietly, without any violence or demonstrations as seem to be appropriate against Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:23 PM

hetherblether,

you missed part of the report:

"The Israeli army said its soldiers came under fire from militants hiding in the school and responded. It accused Gaza's Hamas rulers of "cynically" using civilians as human shields."


Using the school as a military armed post is in violation of the Geneva Conventions, aned is a WAR CRIME.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:19 PM

"In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had THEIR homeland... the remaining 25% of the original Palestinian territory (west of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland."

Are you claiming this is not true? Please provide some evidence that Jordan does not exist: I have seem enough evidence that it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:16 PM

"I don't make that point because it's not true."

It is as true as YOUR statement- so YOU must be lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:15 PM

"They need a state of their own because that's the only way they will have any rights on their own land. "


They ( the Palestinians) HAVE had a state of their own, since 1923, when the ARAB MOSLIM HOMELAND was split off from Mandate Palestine, and Jews were forbidden to settle there.

ANd Jordan offered the Arab Moslims who fled Israel ( a small part of the total Moslim population) citizenship IF THEY RENOUNCED VIOLENCE.

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

Israel gets scolded once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:18 PM

And the whole reason I made that point to begin with is that people say the reason Jews need to have a Jewish state is because that's the only thing that will guarantee their safety. We know that not only does the Jewish state not guarantee anyone's safety, but it actually makes Jews less safe everywhere in the entire world. Nobody is making the argument that the Palestinians need a state of their own because it will make them safer. They need a state of their own because that's the only way they will have any rights on their own land.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM

LH,

You, and others here, seem to miss the point. When it was Israeli civilians being killed, there were no demonstrations, no sense of outrage, no comment that a cease-fire was needed, no attacks upon random Moslims in other countries.

If a Jew dares to defend himself, he becomes a criminal and guilty, but no like effect is put upon those killing Jews.


Reality, not a dream. Look at the Lebenon Ceasefire terms- what parts have been implemented- and what parts ignored because they did not apply to Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:13 PM

I don't make that point because it's not true. I haven't heard any reports of Palestinians being targeted outside of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem, and I haven't heard any reports about them being targeted by anyone except Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:09 PM

The attacks on Palestinians in Gaza prove that the actions of the government of Gaza make Palestinians, both in Gaza as well as worldwide LESS safe rather than more safe.


Just as true- but I notice you don't bother making THAT point.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:18 PM

'spose as they had the map reference,?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:16 PM

LH, Zionism hardly exists anymore, and hasn't since 1949, except as a pejorative used against Israeli policies. Even when it did, its primary purpose was to encourage emigration to land purchased in Palestine rather than the eviction of local residents. It is rather like calling any right-wing government or politician "fascist", whether or not what they advocate has any resemblance to the economic and political theories of fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:00 PM

I heard on BBC news that the UN gave Israel the GPS co-ordinates to prevent them attacking the school

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:57 AM

Nothing like an exaggerated sense of their own past martyrdom to blind people to their present inhumanity to others, is there? Just focus on your own pain, BB, just focus on how everyone supposedly "hates the Jews" (which is not the case at all), the paranoid dream of persecution that keeps rolling around in your head, and you will never get it in your head why people are presently getting very angry about Zionist actions and policies in the last few decades in the Middle East.

Hitler felt that way too. He only saw the historical pain, humiliation, and suffering of Germans, supposedly at the hands of almost everyone else, and he couldn't grasp or relate to the pain and suffering of anyone else but his own people. You see where it led him. He brought the world down on his head eventually.

You won't see me here much at all on these threads, because it's a waste of my time. There's no use talking about it, and I know it. It's a futile endeavour. I'd rather focus on something positive. So don't expect me to hang around here and fight with you about it, because I am not going to.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:47 AM

" and the rockets red glare, the bombs bursting in air
gave proof through the night that our flag was still there"

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:46 AM

The attacks on Jews in Europe prove that the actions of the government of Israel make Jews, both in Israel as well as worldwide LESS safe rather than more safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:42 AM

40 Palestinian civilians, including women and children ,were killed today when the school they were sheltering in was hit by Israeli shells.Yet another disgusting outrage commited by an occupying power that is specialising in blowing up schools,clinics, ambulances and apartment blocks.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:21 AM

Gaza conflict spreads to Europe with Jews attacked
      
John Leicester, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 18 mins ago

PARIS – Signs are mounting that the conflict in Gaza is starting to spill over into violence in Europe's towns and cities, with assaults against Jews and arson attacks on Jewish congregations in France, Sweden and Britain.

Assailants rammed a burning car into the gates of a synagogue in Toulouse, in southwest France, on Monday night. A Jewish congregation in Helsingborg, in southern Sweden, also was attacked Monday night by someone who "broke a window and threw in something that was burning," said police spokesman Leif Nilsson. Neighbors alerted rescue services before the fire took hold.

Someone also started a blaze outside the premises last week. And on Sunday slogans including "murderers ... You broke the cease-fire" and "don't subject Palestine to ethnic cleansing" were daubed on Israel's embassy in Stockholm.

In Denmark, a 27-year-old Dane born in Lebanon of Palestinian parents is alleged to have injured two young Israelis last week, opening fire with a handgun in a shooting that police suspect could be linked to the Gaza crisis.

France has Western Europe's largest Jewish and Muslim communities and a history of anti-Semitic violence flaring when tensions in the Middle East are high. In 2002, some 2,300 Jews left France for Israel because they felt unsafe.

President Nicolas Sarkozy warned in a statement Tuesday that France would not tolerate violence linked to the Gaza crisis. A day earlier, his interior minister said she was concerned about the prospect of contagion and met with the heads of the two main Muslim and Jewish groups and police officials to stress the need to "preserve national unity."

Damage to the synagogue in Toulouse was limited to a blackened gate, and there were no injuries even though a rabbi was giving a course to adults inside, authorities said. They said unlighted gasoline bombs were also found in a car nearby and in the synagogue's yard. A local Jewish leader, Armand Partouche, said he believed the assailants had planned to torch the synagogue, but fled when the building's alarm went off.

"It could have been very, very serious," Partouche said in a telephone interview. "There were people inside; there could have been deaths."

He said Jewish leaders are asking Toulouse authorities for reinforced security for the city's synagogues.

"We really fear that anti-Semitism will spring up again and that the current conflict will be transposed to our beautiful French republic," he said.

In Britain, the Community Security Trust, a Jewish defense group, said it had seen a rise in anti-Semitic incidents since the start of Israel's offensive against Gaza. The group said it had recorded 20-25 incidents across the country in the past week that it believed were connected with Gaza, including an arson attempt on a synagogue in north London on Sunday.

London police are investigating the attack, in which suspects splashed flammable liquid on the door and set it on fire.

Community Security Trust spokesman Mark Gardner said that in another incident last week a gang of 15-20 youths walked along the main street in Golders Green, a largely Jewish neighborhood in north London, shouting "Jew" and "Free Palestine" at passers-by.

"It could get worse," Gardner said. "We tend to see these things happen in waves."

The government in Belgium on Tuesday ordered police in Antwerp and Brussels to be on increased alert after recent pro-Palestinian protests ended in violence and dozens of arrests. Police said burning rags were shoved through the mailbox of a Jewish home in Antwerp last weekend. Damage was limited and no arrests were made.

In the Danish shooting, one Israeli man was shot in the arm and another in the leg as they were selling hair care products in a shopping mall. Eli Ruvio, who owns the company that operated the stands, said his employees have been harassed by Muslim youths since they set up three kiosks in the shopping center in August.

"They kept cursing and shouting at us," Ruvio told The Associated Press. He added that the Muslim youths also threw mud and firecrackers at the employees and spat at them.

Ruvio recalled an episode Dec. 27 when some of the youths shouted "slaughter all the Jews."

"I told my employees not to speak in Hebrew and lie about where they come from, they should say there were from Spain or somewhere else. If people ask you where you are from, never say you're from Israel," he said.

----------------------------------------------------------------


Still waiting for the UN to enforce the terms of the 2006 Lebenon Ceasefire on the Arabs- or anyone other than the Israelis, for that matter.

Where are the kidnapped Israeli soldiers?

When will Hezboallah be disarmed? When will the weapons supply to Hezboallah be stopped?

And the UN wants to have another ceasefire, that only the Israelis are supposed to stop attacks, or give up anything?




Waiting to see articles of Moslims being assulted, and mosques in Europe being burned in protest over the Hamas rockets...

Oh, yeah, that only kills Jews, so we don't need to have any protests or reaction to them. And all Jews are to be assulted when Israel does anything you don't like, but no Moslims anywhere, including Gaza, have any responsibility for the actions of Hamas, the government of Gaza.

And if Hamas makes a military target in the middle of civilians, or a mosque, it is a crime to attack it, while the targetiing of an entire civilian population is fine as long as they are only Jews.


"In 2002, some 2,300 Jews left France for Israel because they felt unsafe."

Where are the demands for THESE people to get thier homes back?

Oh, yeah. Jews are not really fully human: they don't have any rights to life or property.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:25 AM

I am to understand that John d'Kemsing scoffs at the proposed solution. Understandable but not constructive.

personal respondsibility is key. Like an oath one must accept the blame and respndsibility for war.
Some say act locally but think globally or that small is beautiful. When all moderates of all the religions respondsible today or historicly for religous combat unite in non violence protest, I believe only then can some good come.


Some are respondsible for rushing to war saying that it is best to attack now while the Bush administration gives its tacit support.

Some are respondsible for condemning Barak's silence while deferring to the current administration.

Some think they are right when everyone else are wrong.

We are all to blame. Perhaps you are to blame by six degrees of separation or a single act of peace deferred.

Personal respondsibility may only be a concept now but when embraced it offers unity and change.

Some of you may also see a parrallel in ancient religious teachings.
A peace process will be accelerated by a personification of the non violent protest similar to Ghandi but respected by every religion.

Perhaps it is you in some small way everyday. If it is, soon all of us can own the respondsibility for the wrong and work for what is right.

UTOPIAN words? Yes, assurdly they are. Yet it is better than accepting disoptia as the normal outcome and allow war to continue to spread and infect every person on the Earth unto death.

all i know is that this idea has defied bullets before.
It takes more than guns to kill a man, woman and child, the idea didn't die.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:56 AM

......3000 miles.....

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 06:51 AM

What can nearly everyone agree upon?

An humanitarian cease fire to save the innocent?

That this is a religious war in a turf war uniform?

That when you ravage, kill and starve a people as you would ravage dogs, they will become mean killers, not out of revenge but out of survivial?

That if you take a side, you are more of the problem than a solution?

That US arms makers are happy that new orders are coming in?



Be it for my one time silence and failure to act meaningfuly or my taking a vehement side in religious political turf wars, I am guilty of perpetuating savage murder and theft of the most horrible slaughter.

Would someone ask me for an answer or a solution they would scoff at my response. I believe ony a non violent protest of ALL the practicing relgious people of western and middle eastern religions can end this suffering.
Ghandi would be more eloquent and believable than i.

I am respondsibele.
Yes the 3rd Rich Germany is respondsible. YesYes even the Catholic religion which sought to end Judaism with the 700 year inquisions in horrid brutal tortures Protestants are respondsible. The Muslims are respondsible. The Jews worldwide are respondsible.

We have tried the predictable violent answers to conflict for millenia after millenia. We must now try the unpredictable but peaceful answer.




I repeat



What can nearly everyone agree upon?

An humanitarian cease fire to save the innocent?

That this is a religious war in a turf war uniform?

That when you ravage, kill and starve a people as you would ravage dogs, they will become mean killers, not out of revenge but out of survivial?

That if you take a side, you are more of the problem than a solution?

That US arms makers are happy that new orders are coming in?



Be it for my one time silence and failure to act meaningfully or my taking a vehement side in religious political turf wars, I am guilty of perpetuating savage murder and theft of the most horrible slaughter.

Would someone ask me for an answer or a solution they would scoff at my response. I believe ony a non violent protest of ALL the practicing relgious people of western and middle eastern religions can end this suffering.
Ghandi would be more eloquent and believable than i.

I am respondsible.
Yes the 3rd Rich Germany is respondsible. YesYes even the Catholic religion which sought to end Judaism with the 700 year inquisions in horrid brutal tortures Protestants are respondsible. The Muslims are respondsible. The Jews worldwide are respondsible.

We have tried the predictable violent answers to conflict for millenia after millenia. We must now try the unpredictable but peaceful answer.

Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:26 AM

All of the Arab countries have recognized Israel's right to exist... within the pre-1967 borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: DougR
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:54 AM

Boppie: Again, you miss my point. NO Arab country recognizes Israel's right to exist. Do you accept that? If not, which Arab country
does? If you cannot come up with one, you are only blowing smoke in this thread.

There will never be peace until either Israel or Hamas no longer exists.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:37 PM

Lox, it really has nothing to do with revenge for "European Antisemitism". Look at a picture of any group of Israelis, and you will see very few European faces. Modern Israelis are an amalgam of people descended from Eastern and Western European, African and Semitic roots, and what happened to some of their ancestors in the 1930s and 1040s is important to them but not all-pervasive. What they want is the freedom to live in peace today, but it seems to most of them that a "measured response" accomplishes nothing. What is happening now, unfortunately, will also, in the final analysis, accomplish nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:53 PM

It doesn't help that the supposedly squeaky clean Fatah government of the west bank seems to be tacitly legitimizing the beatings, arrests and murders of members of Hamas.

Hamas don't represent a policy of any sort.

They represent the irrational, wild, wanton, destructive nature of Grief and Anger.


Until those children are listened to and given time to heal, their faces will scowl with hatred and their ears will not open.

Israel is dishing out revenge for 1000 years of european anti semitism on the palestinians and seems to know no mercy.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:38 PM

Well, Dougie, because if I have it right Israel has enjoyed a peacful existence with many of it's former foes, Egypt being one... Israel doesn't need any to loose any of it's friends...

BTW, Dougie, word on the street is that Hamas was loosing support in Gaza before this occupation and Hamas has never had much support from the West Banl Palestinians... But everyday that Israel pounds away is another day where Hmas is gaining support and sympathy not only with Plaestinaians but with other peaceful Arab neigbors of Israel...

But back to your question... Rejoice???... I think that is too strong a sentiment if one thinks of human destruction that would occur if Israel were blown on the face of the earth... Me thinks that you are sterotyping people here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: DougR
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

Bobert: why in the world would Israel give a "rat's you know what" about what the Arab countries think? There isn't a Arab country in the world that would not rejoice were Israel be blown out of existence.

I've said this before, and have seen, read or heard nothing that causes me to change my mind: "Peace" of some sort between Israel and Palestine MIGHT come when either Hamas has eradicated Israel or Israel has eradicated Hamas. Sad, but I think it is true.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:15 PM

A couple of interesting perspectives, from different angles of the spectrum:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/01/post.html

http://www.defenceandstrategy.eu/cs/aktualni-cislo-1-2008/clanky/ethics-war-and-human-rights.html

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM

The question here isn't about "justification" as much as security in the long run... The perception is that Israel, while perhaps justified in some response, has over responded... This is not good for Israel in the long run because this perception by moderate Arab nations as well as non-Arab nations will not serve Israels in the long run... Yes, it will get votes for some hardliner candidtates but at what cost...

Israel needs to rethink its repsonse beyond "Well, Hamas is sending rockets at us"... Israel may very well be in midst of being sucked into a bad-PR trap here that may prove most costly than it can see...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

I completely agree with you Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:52 PM

It seems to me that when there is an armed conflict between a strong power and a weak power, the weak power turns to terrorism and the strong power to massive retaliation. This was true of the Americans government and the Indians, the Nazis and the resistance, the English and the Irish....
It's certainly a lousy system, but I really can't see that either side is justified in its actions. And, sadly, the only way I can see of stopping it is through a force superior to both parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:41 PM

When Hamas with its inaccurate rockets kills civilians that is clearly what they are trying to do. When Israel with its state of the art weaponry kills civilians, that is obviously completely accidental and undesired.

That's clear enough...

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:26 PM

Bruce, you started the thread saying that "if Israeli rockets had done this, there would be loud screams of protest: I hear a lot of silence...."

You only need to read the national Israeli paper Haaretz to see the range of conflicting views from within Israel about the current war.

Israeli historian Tom Segev argued that a flawed assumption has accompanied the Zionist movement since its inception, and that is the belief that military strikes against the Palestinians will "teach them a lesson". He describes the flawed assumptions behind military policy this way "We are the representatives of progress and enlightenment, sophisticated rationality and morality, while the Arabs are a primitive, violent rabble; ignorant children who must be educated and taught wisdom … The bombing of Gaza is also supposed to 'liquidate the Hamas regime', in line with another [Zionist] assumption: that it is possible to impose a 'moderate' leadership on the Palestinians, one that will abandon their national aspirations."

Yossi Alpher, a former Mossad operative turned commentator, has commented that the treatment of Gaza has not manipulated the Palestinians into hating Hamas, but has probably been counter-productive. It is just useless collective punishment.

it took a week of relentless air attacks and the death of about 400 Gazans before Israel could name a single Hamas victim of standing.

Within Israel, there is despair, exhaustion, anger, but there is debate. The former head of the Mossad intelligence service, Ephraim Halevy, argues that it is in Israel's interest to negotiate with Hamas. Yossi Alpher agrees that as a strategic approach to Hamas, the offer to talk and recognise is a viable option which has not been taken.

But the hardline Binyamin Netanyahu wants a second stint as prime minister, and there's an election coming up. Netanyahu says that not only will he not talk to Hamas, but that the present military operation should be expanded to wipe it out of existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:43 PM

And the demonstration to protest the Hamas rockets targeting civilians???????

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:40 PM

The siege of Gaza has been going on for around 18 months.Before the air attack was launched two weeks ago life was already intolerable for the Palestinian population of Gaza.

The air,sea borne and land invasion of Gaza has compounded the very many crimes the Israeli politicians and military have committed against civilians.Large numbers of women and children blown up or shot down.
Clinics,ambulances,hospitals and mosques attacked with missiles and shells.Apartment blocks flattened.

President Bush was recently described accurately as a" bloodthirsty moron". The same description can be applied to the Israeli foreign minister,a nonentity called Tzipi Livni, who said a few days ago
"There is no humanitarian crisis in the [Gaza] strip and therefore no need for a humanitarian truce".

Israel is an illegal occupying power in Gaza and the West Bank. For decades it has imprisoned,humiliated,oppressed and massacred Palestinians.

Its behaviour these past few weeks reeks of racisism, barbarism and criminality....and mass murder.

Actually the behaviour of the Israeli state will come as no surprise to anyone who has followed events in the Middle East.

Israel has consistently portrayed the Palestinians as savage beasts.They have used laws,the military,education and the media to dehumanise the Palestinian people.

You have to ask the question what rights do Palestinians have under the rule of Israel? The answer is as far as I can see is the right to be kicked around,bullied and blown up.

Israel has kept international reporters out of Gaza for good reason.It will not allow international peacekeepers in Gaza for similar reasons.War crimes are being committed against a civilian population by the Israeli war machine and it is less embarrassing for the criminals to have no witnesses.

"The executioners face is always well hidden"

There will be a huge national demonstration in London on saturday the 10th January to protest at the slaughter in Gaza.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

"Abu Obeida, a spokesman for Hamas' military wing, warned Israel that Izzedine al Qassam Brigades will continue rocket strikes "for many months" and vowed to strike deeper into Israeli territory. He spoke on Hamas' Al-Aqsa TV."


Not some group of extremists, but HAMAS, the elected government of Gaza...

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:58 PM

"Israel has three main demands: an end to Palestinian attacks, international supervision of any truce and a halt to Hamas rearming.

Hamas demands a cessation of Israeli attacks and the opening of vital Gaza-Israel cargo crossings, Gaza's main lifeline."



BTW, where are the two Israeli soldiers that the last UN truce (Lebenon) said should be returned?

And why was Hezboallah allowed to rearm after the UN Truce, in violation OF THOSE TRUCE TERMS?

Or is it only Israel that should bother to comply with UN truce terms, again and again?



"Militants, defying the attacks, fired more than two dozen rockets by midday, and Hamas' strongman urged Palestinians to "crush" the invading Israeli forces and target Israeli civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:55 PM

Shout all you want- I am listening to a number of sources, demonstrators, and national representatives- and there are far more telling Israel to stop than telling Hamas to stop.

something like 95%, from the reports I am seeing.



Israel has stated they would stop when Hamas stopped fireing rockets at civilians.

"Senior Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar says rocket attacks on Israel will continue. "



Hardly "Most commentators have called for both sides to stop, and Hamas' behaviour has been condemned by virtually everyone."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM

I SAID YOU MUST BE DEAF, BRUCE!
CAN YOU HEAR ME THROUGH ALL THE FROTH?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM

updated 43 minutes ago
   Hamas won't stop rocket attacks on Israel

Story Highlights
NEW: Israeli military reports heavy fighting around Gaza City

Hamas military spokesman says rocket attacks won't stop

Israeli military reports 40 rocket strikes in Israel on Monday

Gaza death toll since airstrikes began is above 500, Palestinian sources say
   
GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Hamas militants fired dozens of rockets into southern Israel on Monday despite a 10-day Israeli military campaign that reportedly has left more than 500 Palestinians dead.

Senior Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar says rocket attacks on Israel will continue.

1 of 2 more photos »

Neither Israel nor the Hamas leaders in Gaza showed any sign of considering a cease-fire in the face of continuing international pressure to do so.

"I can understand the eagerness of the international community to see the return to calm," Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told European foreign ministers in Jerusalem. "This is our dream as well. This is what we are looking for. Unfortunately, there are those who cannot accept the idea of living in peace in this region."

Abu Obeida, a spokesman for Hamas' military wing, warned Israel that Izzedine al Qassam Brigades will continue rocket strikes "for many months" and vowed to strike deeper into Israeli territory. He spoke on Hamas' Al-Aqsa TV.

Senior Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar also gave a televised address Monday, saying that the leadership in Gaza salutes "the resistance men" and that their actions were justified because of what Israel has done.

"They [Israeli forces] shelled everyone in Gaza. ... They shelled children and hospitals and mosques," he said. "And in doing so, they gave us legitimacy to strike them in the same way."

Israel on Monday continued its military assault on Gaza from the air and the ground. Heavy fighting erupted Monday night around Gaza City, the Israel Defense Forces said. Earlier in the day, Israeli forces took "tens of Hamas militants" into custody, the military said. IDF also said that fighting between Hamas militants and Israeli troops left several of the militants injured, but it did not say how many. Watch a report on the continued fighting »

Eight Israeli soldiers were lightly wounded during battles with Hamas militants Monday afternoon, IDF said. On Sunday, an Israeli soldier was killed, marking the first military death since the ground operation was launched Saturday night.


'AC360°' live in Israel
CNN's Anderson Cooper reports on the Gaza incursion live from Israel.
Tonight, 10 ET

see full schedule »
The military campaign has not stopped militants in Gaza from firing on southern Israel: 47 rockets and mortars struck Israel on Sunday and at least another 40 on Monday, the Israeli military said.

One of the rockets hit a kindergarten in Ashdod, the military said. The school, like all Israeli educational facilities near the Gaza border, was closed.

The Israeli military said the ground assault -- which was launched Saturday night -- is the second phase of the operation to stop militants from firing rockets and mortars into southern Israel.

Israel began its air assault on Gaza on December 27 to stop the rocket attacks that have killed four Israelis since the military campaign began.

"Before the military operation, the equation was that Hamas targets Israelis whenever it likes, and Israel shows restraint," Livni told foreign ministers from the European Union on Monday.

"This is not going to be [any] longer the equation in this region. When Israel is targeted, Israel is going to retaliate."

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Thousands of Israeli troops, backed by tanks, artillery and helicopters, have pushed deep into Gaza, essentially splitting it into the south and north.

"Every couple of minutes we hear an explosion," Gaza City resident Safa Joudeh said Monday. "We can see tanks coming closer and closer into Gaza."

She said most residents are confined to their homes and are without electricity and running out of food and water.

The ground war has resulted in mounting casualties in Gaza. More than 530 Palestinians have been killed since Israel launched its operation, including at least 100 women and children, according to Palestinian medical sources. That number includes 82 Palestinians killed since the ground invasion -- 30 of them children and 20 women, the sources said. In addition, 2,750 Palestinians have been injured, most of them civilians, the sources said. iReport.com: Share reactions to "all-out war" in Gaza

Israel also stepped up its psychological campaign Monday, trying to turn Gazans against Hamas.

"Urgent message, warning to the citizens of Gaza," said a recorded phone call to Gaza resident Moussa El-Hadad. "Hamas is using you as human shields. Do not listen to them. Hamas has abandoned you and are hiding in their shelters."

The Israeli military also dropped leaflets into the streets of Gaza warning residents that the IDF will continue using "full force against Hamas." It also warned that the military "also has other means to deal with Hamas."

"If the army uses them, the toll will be very painful," said the leaflet, signed by IDF command.


A delegation of EU foreign ministers is in Jerusalem to push for a truce, while Egypt is putting pressure on Hamas leaders in Gaza.

Israel on Monday allowed 80 trucks filled with humanitarian supplies to pass into Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:31 PM

Must be deaf then, Bruce. Most commentators have called for both sides to stop, and Hamas' behaviour has been condemned by virtually everyone. They're nasty jihadist thugs who came to power in a similar fashion to the way the Nazis came to power in the Thirties.
That doesn't make Israel's 'asymmetrical' campaign right, however.
In the light of that, should Britain have bulldozed the Divis Flats, demolished the Creggan Estate, razed large parts of Derry and launched 'surgical' air strikes against Dublin in the Seventies?
Sadly Israel has about as much subtlety as the USA when it comes to counter-insurgency.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:29 PM

Sara Roy, a Senior Research Scholar at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard University, discusses the economic reality in Gaza and the West Bank and its effect on Palestinian behavior...

http://fora.tv/2008/10/14/Sara_Roy_Beyond_Occupation

Dr. Roy explodes the myth that Israel pulling the settlers and troops out of Gaza ended Israel's imprisonment of the people of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

A new meaning for the term "surgical strikes"...

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:07 AM

A Palestinian hospital [Al Awdi ] has been shelled today by the Israeli military.Two shells landed, one only a few metres from the emergency admissions front door which was understandably crowded at the time.
In addition four Palestinian paramedics were killed while trying to reach civilian wounded.
Moreover the Israeli military killed seven members of the same family when a shell hit their home yesterday.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:57 AM

"Israel has three main demands: an end to Palestinian attacks, international supervision of any truce and a halt to Hamas rearming.

Hamas demands a cessation of Israeli attacks and the opening of vital Gaza-Israel cargo crossings, Gaza's main lifeline."





"Militants, defying the attacks, fired more than two dozen rockets by midday, and Hamas' strongman urged Palestinians to "crush" the invading Israeli forces and target Israeli civilians."



AND TARGET ISRAELI CIVILIANS.

"If the rocket fire came from Gaza (no one is taking credit, so I don't think we can say for sure that it did), and if the people who were responsible were targeting civilians in Israel, then I condemn their actions. "

CarolC

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090105/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:45 AM

To be truely fair, the only thing to do is for Israel to treat the Moslims just like the Moslims in surrounding countries have ( from 1948 to present) treated Jews.



So why is anyone complaing about anything that Israel does? ALL that they have done has been a lot better than Jews have received in the Moslim nations.


Oh, that's right- Jews are not human beings, like the Palestinians. It is ok to treat Jews in ways that warrent protest and international condemnation if "real people" are treated that way.

Since there was NO complaints about killing Jews, I have to assume that some of those here prostesting Israel that kept quiet about Hamas rockets actually feel that way.


I started this thread with the following:


--------------------------------------------------------------------
If Israeli rockets had done this, there would be loud screams of protest: I hear a lot of silence....





Palestinian rocket misfires, kills 2 girls in Gaza
   
By IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer Ibrahim Barzak,

Associated Press Writer – GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – A crude rocket fired by Palestinian militants fell short of its target in Israel on Friday, striking a house in the northern Gaza Strip and killing two schoolgirls.

The attack came as Israel sent mixed signals over its plans to respond to continuing Palestinian rocket fire. Israeli defense officials say politicians have approved a large-scale incursion into the territory once rainy conditions clear. But at the same time, Israel appeared receptive to international pressure against an invasion, opening the Gaza border Friday to allow in deliveries of humanitarian aid.

None of Gaza's militant factions claimed responsibility for the deadly attack on the house in Beit Lahiya. Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moiaya Hassanain said the two victims, ages 5 and 12, were cousins. Three other children were wounded, he said.

The girls were the first Palestinian civilians inadvertently killed by militants since their truce with Israel began collapsing six weeks ago. Family members and medics said they were killed by rocket fire.

Israel's crossings with Gaza have been largely clamped tight since Islamic Hamas militants seized control of the coastal strip in June 2007, with only the barest essentials allowed in since a June 19 truce with Gaza gunmen began unraveling six weeks ago.

On Thursday, however, Israel's Defense Ministry said it agreed to open its cargo crossings into Gaza to avoid a humanitarian crisis there. Defense Minister Ehud Barak said the decision followed consultations with defense officials and calls from the international community, suggesting Israel might be open to international pressure to resume the truce.

A total of 106 trucks carried medicine, fuel, cooking gas and other vital goods into Gaza, including a small donation from Egypt, the military said.

Cabinet Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer said the humanitarian shipment was meant to be a message to the people of Gaza that they were not Israel's enemy.

"We are sending them a message that the Hamas leadership has turned them into a punching bag for everyone," he told Israel Radio. "It is a leadership that has turned school yards into rocket-launching pads. This a leadership that does not care that the blood of its people will run in the streets."

Ben-Eliezer echoed the message Prime Minister Ehud Olmert tried to deliver a day earlier in an interview with the Arabic language Al-Arabiya TV station: that Gaza's Islamic Hamas militant rulers were to blame for the suffering in Gaza, home to 1.4 million Palestinians.

But, as with similar cases involving unintended civilian casualties in the past, there were no immediate signs of backlash against the militants after the girls' death.

The militants kept up their fire on Israeli border areas despite Israel's agreement to open its crossings Friday. In all, 13 rockets and mortars were fired toward Israel by Friday evening, the military said. One home was struck but no injuries were reported.

Israel had originally agreed to open the cargo crossings with Gaza on Wednesday, but shut the passages after militants began pounding southern Israel with rockets and mortars.

Pressure has been mounting in Israel for the military to crush Gaza militants, and Israeli leaders have been voicing strong threats in recent days. But on Friday, military officials said the army was planning a routine rotation of its troops along the Gaza border in the coming week. That, coupled with winter weather, made an imminent operation seem unlikely, they said.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not permitted to discuss military strategy publicly.

Israel left Gaza in 2005 after a 38-year occupation and has been reluctant to press ahead with a campaign likely to exact heavy casualties on both sides. Past incursions have not halted the barrages, and officials fear anything short of a reoccupation of Gaza would fail to achieve the desired results.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


And I still hear only claims that Israel HAS to stop its attacks on military targets, and NO demand or demonstrations demading that Hamas stop the rocket attacks on civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:07 PM

Safed - 1834

"This pogrom is known in Jewish history as 'The great plunder of Safed' and it lasted from the 15 of June 1834 to the 17 of July of that year. This pogrom had been forgotten because this whole era of pre – Zionist Palestine, (or the Land of Israel prior to the emergence of the Zionist movement) has been cast aside by more powerful events that happened later, namely the beginning of the Zionist enterprise..."

"The Palestinian Arabs of the Eastern Galilee took advantage of a regional crisis, the war between Egypt and Turkey, to attack their Jewish neighbors and strip them of everything they had: clothes, properties, houses, and the like. In the process people were beaten in the streets, many times to death, synagogues destroyed and holy books desecrated. An entire community of 2,000 souls (Kinglake says 4,000) was forced into hiding for 33 days, in caves, ruins, inhospitable mountaintops, and basements. In that mayhem there were good Arabs who saved lives, like the people of the village of Ein Zeitim and a few individuals, Muslims and Christians from the city itself, but there were also the double crossers who promised to help for a large sum of money, only to hand over the Jews to the rioting mob outside the hideout. For 33 days the lives of the Jews of Safed had practically no value, and anyone of them who showed his or her face in public was at risk of been beaten to death, sometimes by people they knew as neighbors or business associates.
As with all cases of mass racial violence, there were inciters and a government unwilling to do anything about them. In this case, an inciter, a self-proclaimed prophet by the name of Muhammed Damoor who, according to the English traveler Alexander William Kinglake, 'prophesied' the plunder for which he agitated.

Like all other pogroms, it demonstrates the helplessness of the Jewish condition prior to the formation of the state of Israel. Without it, Jews could not defend themselves, and cound not demand treatment as equals, thus the life of a Jew had no actual value. It may have been inevitable that the first Zionist settlers were not immigrants but natives of the land. People like Yoel Moshe Salomon from Jerusalem and Elazar Rokach of Safed and their followers, who saw the answer to their people's plight outside their walled cities and founded Petah Tikvah and Rosh – Pinah in 1878, beginning what is known as practical Zionism."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

'Innocents Abroad' Revisited: 1867-2007

(6 September 07) by Levi Chazen

"The latter generations will say: Your children who will come after you, and the foreigner who will come from a distant land - when they see the plagues of the Land and its illnesses with which HaShem has afflicted it...."

One of the most famous of these "foreigners" to visit the Holy Land, some 150 years ago, was Mark Twain, who wrote about his experiences in his book Innocents Abroad. Twain traveled throughout Europe, worked his way down to Greece and Turkey, then through Syria and finally to the Holy Land. What awaited him in the Holy Land was unlike anything that he had seen before in any other place.

Twain wrote: "Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its field and fettered its energies. Where Sodom and Gomorrah reared their domes and towers, that solemn sea now floods the plain, in whose bitter waters no living thing exists, over whose borders nothing grows but weeds and scattering tufts of cane, and that treacherous fruit that promises refreshment to parching lips, but turns to ashes at the touch."

Could this be the Promised Land, the same land that the Torah tells us is flowing with milk and honey? A land that, the Talmud teaches us, flourished so greatly that when Rami the son of Yechezkel traveled to B'nei Brak, he saw goats eating under big trees, and honey flowed from the figs while milk dripped from the goats and they mixed together, and he exclaimed: "This is it - a land flowing with milk and honey"?

How, then, did the Holy Land, which so flourished in ancient times, turn into a dry and barren land where "even the olive tree and the sabra, those faithful friends of barren lands, were almost completely missing from the land"?

The Torah tells us: "And they will say, because they forsook the covenant of HaShem, the G-d of their forefathers, which He had sealed with them when He took them out of the land of Egypt, and they went and they served the gods of others, and they prostrated themselves to gods that they knew not, and He did not apportion to them."

So great was the desolation of the Land that all who saw her knew that this could only be the hand of G-d: "Sulphur and salt, a conflagration of its entire land, it cannot be sown and it cannot sprout, and no grass shall rise up on it."

Twain writes: "The spell of a curse hovers over her, which has blighted her fields and imprisoned the might of her power with shackles. The Land of Israel is a wasteland and devoid of delight. The Land of Israel is no longer to be considered part of the actual world. We did not see a soul during the entire journey, everywhere we went there was no tree or shrub." (Funny, though, that Twain did not see all of those millions of "Palestinians," the same ones that have been here from time immemorial.)

If Mark Twain would arise today, some 150 years after his historical visit to Israel, he would not believe that he is in the same place, the place that he called "not part of the actual world." Today, the Land of Israel flourishes beyond anyone's wildest imagination; with the return of the Jewish people, we have turned the desert into the Garden of Eden.

Still, this should come as no surprise, as the Talmud already told us: "Rabbi Abba said: There is no clearer sign that the Redemption is at hand than when the trees in the Land of Israel once again give of their fruits."

Looking back at this historical event, who can not stand in wonder at seeing the hand of G-d over the past 150 years in the return of the Jewish people to its land? How could it be that Jews still continue to live in the exile, seeing with their own eyes that the living G-d of Israel is bringing back His people, and that this is His will?

Not forever will the gates remain open. Do not find yourself on the other side, for what will you answer on the Day of Judgment: "I did not see; I did not notice G-d's great hand in history"?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:41 PM

"Almost half its population are young people or children..."

"Birth rate declines only after an area has been rendered miserable by overpopulation." ~ me

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:37 PM

Israel closed access from and to Israel. I'm afraid that someone else has to take responsibility for closing access from and to Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:06 PM

It is untrue to claim that Hamas were the first to break the truce.
Firstly Israel never gave up on its economic and military stranglehold of Gaza.This resulted in a city slowly being starved of food,power and medical supplies.Almost half its population are young people or children .The economic and business life of the city was broken as it was denied access to the outside world.
Also Israel continued to kill Palestinians in Gaza.
This was obviously intolerable to Hamas and the wider population.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM

Arabs turn against 'megalomaniac' Hamas

ANALYSIS: Abraham Rabinovich | January 01, 2009
Article from: The Australian

THE bitter Israel-Hamas conflict has touched off Arab-Arab conflicts almost as bitter.

Responsibility for the war in Gaza, and for the Palestinian fatalities there, was placed squarely on Hamas by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

"We called the leaders of Hamas and told them, 'Please, do not end the truce'," he said. Hamas ended a six-month truce with Israel two weeks before the Israeli attack.

An Abbas aide, Nimr Hammad, termed the rocket fire into Israel reckless. "The one responsible for the massacre is Hamas," he said. "Hamas should not have given the Israelis a pretext."

Bassam Abu-Sumayyah, a columnist for the daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, accused Hamas of megalomania and said it had acted without even a little bit of political and security sense. It had behaved like a superpower.

"They thought they have a number of missiles and can therefore prevail in a war of such size," he wrote.

A columnist for the PA daily Al-Ayyam, Abdallah Awwad, said that Hamas had made a major mistake in trying to be both a government operating in the open and a resistance organisation that operated underground. "We are paying the price of stupidity and the maniacal

love of being rulers," he said.

Beyond intra-Palestinian disputes, the eruption in Gaza has widened the rift between Egypt, supported by other moderate Arab states, and the Hamas-Iran-Syria-Hezbollah alignment.

Cairo has long feared the radical influence of Hamas on its own Islamist parties. It regards Hamas as a proxy for Iran, which it sees attempting to wrest Muslim leadership in the Middle East from Egypt, even though Iran is not an Arab country.

However, Egypt attempted to broker a reconciliation between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority that would permit a leadership acceptable to all Palestinians to emerge in new elections. Hamas derailed the proposal, to Egypt's fury.

Egypt, in turn, refused to open the border crossing between Gaza and Egypt to Gaza residents, even during the Israeli attack when many Gazans were clamouring to get out. This infuriated Hamas and caused anti-Egyptian protests in much of the Arab world.

For Egypt, the most annoying criticism came from Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, the formidable leader of the Hezbollah in Lebanon. Addressing Egyptian citizens, particularly army officers, Nasrallah called on them to protest at Cairo's lack of response to the Israeli attack.

Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said of Nasrallah's speech: "(He) practically declared war on us." As for Nasrallah's appeal to Egyptian officers, Mr Gheit said of Egypt's army: "They will also protect Egypt against people like you."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:10 AM

10000Israeli anti war protestors demonstarted today in Tel Aviv with placards calling for an end to the siege of Gaza and an end to the occupation. They also called the Israeli leaders mass murders for their role in the attack on Gaza.
As the demonstartion peacefully broke up the last few to leave were attacked by right wing thugs who threatened to finish them off.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:52 AM

Tony Benn ,president of the Stop The War Coalition,does have a few concrete suggestions...and incidentally as a man who fought in uniform in WW2 he does know something about the foul reality of warfare.His brother was killed in that conflict.
He has called for an end to the bombing of Gazaas a first step towards defusing the on going carnage between Israel and carnage.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:56 AM

I `ad this bloke in my cab the other day with a dirty great empty cardboard box.
`e said, " `ere Jim, could you take me up to The Mall and drop me at Downing Street please?"
I said, " Yeah, no problem. You going up there to demonstrate or something?"
`e said, "Nah. I run a shoe shop for one-legged people in `ackney. I`m just going up there to re-stock!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:42 AM

.....3000 miles......

Tony Benn ( Lord Stansgate)? He`s got loads of words but no solutions!

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:33 AM

What is the difference in this and 1939-45 ? The Gamekeeper has become the poucher.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:18 AM

Five Palestinian sisters killed in their beds when an Israeli missile exploded next to their house. They were aged between four and seventeen.
Would these girls have been Hamas?
A sixth sister survived.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:07 PM

... its still murder ...

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:06 PM

It is no longer a wait, they went in and intend to kill and move these poor people of their own land while Americans watch and support it.

The Jews have short memories.

This is a sad day.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:59 PM

Palestinians Speak Out Against Hamas

January 2, 2009

(ChattahBox) - President Mahmoud Abbas, leader of the Palestinian National Authority, spoke out today against the actions of Hamas, claiming that their ending of the truce with Israel, and the following bombings that led to Israel's airstrikes, were a ridiculous move that are to be blamed for the most recent conflict.

There has also been a cry of protest from the local media, and according to columnist Abdallah Awwad of the PA Daily, "They thought they have a number of missiles and can therefore prevail in a war of such size. We are paying the price of stupidity and the maniacal love of being rulers."

The attacks from Hamas began two weeks before Israel's counterstrikes, after a six month truce that had been shakily maintained was abruptly dropped by the fanatical group. The PNA had previously begged Hamas not to do this, knowing the consequences of the move would be sereve. The resulting conflict has led to the death of hundreds of citizens of the Gaza Strip, many of which were members of the militant faction.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

I would like to offer my wholehearted support and admiration for these Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: paula t
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:11 PM

I feel for the ordinary people on both sides here. They are completely at the mercy of others who have their own agendas and their own reasons for being unable to compromise.
Having been on the receiving end of a rocket attack on a Kibbutz in 1980, I can assure anyone that it is the most terrifying experience imaginable - no matter how "outdated "or "weak" the rockets are deemed to be.There is nothing so terrifying as hearing rockets being launched and hearing them coming through the sky and waiting to find out where they fall.
I hope that someone, somewhere will be brave enough to risk the wrath of his peers and make the first move to peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:04 PM

No Sweat Bobad ...

I'll put it in my own words to make it really clear.

Hamas has no right to bombard or to sanction the bombardment of Israeli civilians with Rockets or any other weapons because -

"I don't care who started what - Murder is Murder."


Now - about that blindspot ...


Why don't you "try real hard, say it:"

"sorry lox - I made assumptions about you that are entirely baseless and without any foundation and I unreservedly retract them"


In the meanttime, Israel is going about dealing with this crisis in the wrong way and as we are discussing Israels current policy on this thread, I will offer my opinion of it - sickening.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM

I do, but the remedy is even worse.


LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:46 PM

Go ahead lox, try real hard, say it:


"I unreservedly consider current Hamas Government policy in Gaza to be wholly and unacceptable and audacious in the extreme."



There, that wasn't so hard now, was it?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:40 PM

To clarify ...

"I don't care who started what - Murder is Murder."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:38 PM

I was on that march this afternoon in London. It was peaceful if vociferous. I wasn't involved in the aftermath in Kensington and if more violence is on the cards then I'm not going to be involved tomorrow either.

Tony Benn said all that needed to be said in about 2 minutes... and summed it up in 9 words (of which I only remember 8); Stop the bombing, stop the slaughter, stop the war.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:36 PM

Bobad,

If you wipe the blind spot on your eye and reread my post you will see that my position is extremely clearly stated.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:35 PM

"Next saturday [10th Jan ] there will be a national demonstration against the attack on Gaza also in central London.Starts at 2pm."

If I'm late, start without me.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:25 PM

Carnage in Gaza...protest in london
An emergency demonstration agaoinst the attack on Gaza will take place on sunday 4th January outside the Israeli Embassy in Kensington,London at 2pm

In addition there will be nightly weekday protest outside the embassy from 5.30pm to 7.30pm also outside the Israeli embassy.

Next saturday [10th Jan ] there will be a national demonstration against the attack on Gaza also in central London.Starts at 2pm.

This evening some 5000 demonstrators have been protesting outside the Embassy .

Further information can be obtained from the Stop The War Coalition website.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:22 PM

And how do you feel about the policy of the government of Gaza, lox?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:19 PM

It's interesting how quick some posters here have been to make a significant leap from "critical of Israeli policy" to "Israel Hater" in their synopsis of posters who feel that this current phase of Israeli policy is unacceptable.

Readers may find it interesting to note that many Chinese nationals respond in a similar way to criticism of Chinese official policy in Tibet.

You disagree with our governments policy? therefore you hate us.

I don't hate anyone.

I unreservedly consider current Israeli Government policy in Gaza to be wholly and unacceptable and audacious in the extreme.

I don't care who started what - Murder is Murder.

Please don't anyone try to explain to me that my distaste of its stench is somehow the fault of my palate.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:07 PM

It seems to that the Zionists on Mudcat do not like their pro Israeli stance being challenged in any way at all.

Mass murder is being committed by the Israeli state in Gaza and across the world Israel stands condemned.


But this mass murder is nothing new.Israel was founded on the massacre of Palestinians at places like Deir Yassin in 1948. It was founded on the forced expulsion of Palestinian people from their homeland.The people of Gaza and their parents and grandparents came originally from what is now Israel. Many probably came from the areas just to the north of Gaza.

Massacre,theft and ethnic cleansing has been the reality of the Palestinian experience.They have been bombed,murdered and assassinated not only in Gaza but in refugee camps like Sabra and Shatilla where that old killer Ariel Sharon [who went on to lead the state of Israel ] was held to be responsible for the slaughter of thousands of Palestinian women, children and old people at the hands of fascist death squads despite American gurantees that their lives woild be protected.

So the slaughter is nothing new for the Palestinians.What has changed is the image of "plucky little Israel".That has gone for ever.Gone for good.Now the world can see that it is little more than a terrorist state ,heavily armed with the latest US technology for killing large numbers of civilians .If it is not wrecking Lebanon it is flattening Gaza.

Innocent women and children and others are being killed and maimed in Gaza so that Israeli politicians can look macho when elections come by next month.

These are the truths that the defenders of Israel find hard to hear.

The media ,owned by big business, is on their side.Charlatans like Bush support Israel but increasingly alternative forms of independent media are revealing the truth about the horror unfolding in Gaza and the trail of slaughter that goes back to the earliest days of founding of Israel.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

Here is a little bit of history you will not get from the Arab propaganda machine:



"PALESTINE?"

  The term "Palestine" came from the name that the conquering Roman Empire gave the ancient Land of Israel in an attempt to obliterate and de-legitimize the Jewish presence in the Holy Land. The name "Palestine" was invented in the year 135 C.E.  Before it was known as Judea, which was the southern kingdom of ancient Israel. The Roman Procurator in charge of the Judean-Israel territories was so angry at the Jews for revolting that he called for his historians and asked them who were the worst enemies of the Jews in their past history. The scribes said, "the Philistines."  Thus, the Procurator declared that Land of Israel would from then forward be called "Philistia" [further bastardized into "Palaistina"] to dishonor the Jews and obliterate their history. Hence the name "Palestine." 

  One more thing. Very often one hears the revisionists and propagandists finding ancient historical links between the "Philistines" ("Invaders" in Hebrew) and the Arab "Palestinians."  There is no truth to this claim! The Philistines were one of a number of Sea Peoples who reached the eastern Mediterranean region approximately 1250-1100 B.C.E.  They were actually an amalgamation of various ethnic groups, primarily of Aegean and south-east European origin [Greece, Crete and Western Turkey] and they died out over 2500 years ago!  Those Philistines were not Arab... and neither was Goliath! The Arabs of "Palestine" are just that... Arabs!  And these Arabs of "Palestine" have about as much historical roots to the ancient Philistines as Yasser Arafat has to the Eskimos! 

  The ancient, indigenous inhabitants of Palestine are long perished from the earth. Canaanites, Phoencians, and then Philistines, all were dominated by the Israelites before 1060 B.C.E.  Most of these cultural identities dissolved completely by the neo-Babylonian age, or, the 6th century B.C.E.  Arabs weren't even in Palestine until the mid-7th century C.E., over a thousand years later, after Palestine's 1,300-year Jewish history. Arabs later living in Palestine never developed themselves or the land, but remained nomadic and quasi-primitive

  Even the word "Palestine" has no meaning in Arabic - every word in Arabic has some meaning deriving from the Koran, but the word "Palestine" does not. If anything, the name "Palestine" was associated with Jews. In the years leading up to the rebirth of Israel in 1948, those who spoke of "Palestinians" were nearly always referring to the region's Jewish residents. For example, the "Palestine Post" [forerunner of today's Jerusalem Post] newspaper and the Palestine Symphony Orchestra were all-Jewish. The "Palestine Brigade Regiment" was composed exclusively of Jewish volunteers in the British World War II Army. In fact, Arab leaders rejected the notion of a unique "Palestinian Arab" identity, insisting that Palestine was merely a part of "Greater Syria."  

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:01 PM

"Israel's latest attack on Gaza is only going to further stoke up hatreds ."

Israel can respond with force to Hamas and Hebullah to end terror bombings, kidnappings and and general havoc and be hated by folks like Heatherblether.

Or

Israel can allow Hamas, Hezbullah or another terrorist group to bomb, kidnap and generally create havoc with impunity, and be hated by folks like Heatherblether.

Either way, Heatherblether, there are so many Israel haters like you in the world that your opinion no longer matters, a few more or less, to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:37 PM

Reply to heatherblether:

ifor,

You are ignoring that the Moslim Palestinians GOT their 75% of Mandate Palestine as a homeland in 1923, and NO Jews were allowed to settle there. Now, Israel is willing to give up the West Band (Part of the Mandate Jewish Homeland) for peace, and there are no takers: The offer of peace is met with rocket bombardment of the civilians in Israel. Israel has a population of how many Moslims? And how many Jews were driven out of Moslim countries? And how many Jews did the Moslim countries allow to remain?

If you protest for rights of the 640,000 Moslims who fled from what is now Israel ( that moslim nations refused to settle, even when they had the possession of the West Bank), what do you say about the 820,000 Jews driven from Arab nations ( that Israel resettled)? Or do Jews not have any rights in your worldview?

As I said after the UN failed to enforce the ceasefire terms on anyone but Israel re Lebenon 2007, the international community has thrown away any chance to solve this problem: Israel would be foolish to trust ANY promises that the UN would do anything.


Thus, the actions ( lack of, actually) of the UN and others after September of 2007 have led directly to there being nothing that they can do.

As for fault,

Who unilaterally terminated the cease fire?

Who (continued to) target the civilian population with area mass bombardment weapons, illegal under tha Geneva conventions?

Who now protests the targeting of their military and givernmental superstructure, the legitimate targets in a war?

Still waiting on the UN to enforce the Lebenon ceasefire terms on Hezboallh... Israel compled quite a while ago- WHERE ARE THE KIDNAPPED ISRAELIS????

And you want Israel to let Hamas continue to attack the civilian population????? Or shall I assume as McGrath insists, that you are actually protesting the Hamas actions as well, deep inside where no-one can hear you?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:10 PM

Folks may detect that something is missing from this map...

                     The Arab World

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:49 PM

Reply to beardedbruce

I have already tried to explain that the illegal Israeli paramilitary settlements on stolen land on the West Bank is increasingly making a two state solution to the crisis impossible.

This is because the hundreds of thousands of armed settlers have built their hilltop fortress settlements on Palestinian land and are increasingly encroaching further, grubbing up orchards,olive groves and farmland. They are demolishing Palestinian homes ,building Israeli only roads and setting up roadblocks and checkpoints across the West Bank holding up Palestinians for hours,isolating towns from their hinterlands and destroying Palestinian businesses. The Israeli government has actively encouraged this land grab in defiance of international law.

Now if that is its response to a two state solution what about a one state solution in which Israelis and Palestinians live together in one democratic state?

That is not even on the political horizion and if it is ever put forward is scoffed at and mocked at by Zionists.

The Israeli government seeks nothing less than the complete surrender of the Palestinian people with the palestinian organisations policing the population on behalf of the Israelis like some tame and timid puppets.

I don't think it is going to work.The illegal occupation has been a disaster for the Palestinians but has also been deeply corrupting and corrosive for Israel itself with Israeli policies being increasingly compared to the hated nazis.

Every night we see more of Gaza being destroyed with mosques and schools blown up,children being killed in growing numbers, indiscriminate shelling and bombing of densely populated city buildings, a hospital being hit and a city blockaded.

The USA is guilty accomplice to these acts of barbarism.And who can believe the liar and bully Bush ,the man who launched that murderous war in Iraq,when he predictably blames Hamas for the carnage in Gaza?

Israel's latest attack on Gaza is only going to further stoke up hatreds .

It needs to radically change course but that is doubtful in such a highly militarisic theocratic regime .

Gideon Levy, a writer for the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, makes many insightful comments about the dehumanising of the Palestinian people and his website is well worth reading.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:15 PM

"Israel really does not want a peaceful and just settlement with the Palestinians."


Is there some reason to assume that THIS has some grounds??? Not from what I see.

When I see you take exception to claims such as this, I will no longer make such comments- your quote is the first I have seen asking that Hamas stop the rockets, except for Abbas.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:07 PM

You keep on accusing critics of Israel of wanting Hamas to keep on firing rockets, bruce. You have no grounds for assuming that whatsoever.

From a report today about a demonstration in the town of Sahknin in norhern Israel, where tens of thousands of Israeli Arabs gathered to protest against the attacks on Gaza:

"...Demonstrators waved Palestinian flags, and chanted slogans denouncing Israeli leaders, including 'Gaza will not surrender to the tanks and bulldozers' and 'Don't fear, Gaza, we are with you'.

Following a minute's silence, Sakhnin mayor Mazen Ghanaim said the Israeli military was 'committing crimes in Gaza before the eyes of the international community', but also called on militants to stop firing rockets into Israel..."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 12:21 PM

......3000 miles.....

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 12:08 PM

And how many protesters were demanding that Hamas stop the rocket attacks???

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:24 AM

Some 50,000 people marched through the centre of London this afternoon to demand that the Israeli attack on Gaza be stopped.

Around 1000 pairs of shoes were thrown by the demonstarators into Downing Street to show their disgust at the spinelessness of the UK government's response to the slaughter.

In addition there were many other sizeable demonstartions in UK towns and cities to protest at the attack on Gaza.

Tony Benn ,the president of the Stop The War Coalition was among those who addressed the huge crowd calling for an end to the violence and a just settlement.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:03 AM

Looking at the RECENT history, from 1923 onward, the Palestinian Moslims have had a state (Transjordan), which just happened to be in control of the West Bank and Gaza from 1948 until 1967- AND made no effort to settle the refugees from the "Jewish State"- While Israel settled those Arab Jews that had been forced out of Moslim nations.

Like Pakistan and India, the mass transfer of populations occurred. Unlike that case, Israel still has a large Moslim population.

Pray tell where the large Jewish population of Jordan is?

Oh, yeah- it is not permitted for Jews to live in Jordan.

http://masada2000.org/historical.html

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:01 AM

The BBC website has just reported that a mosque in Gaza [Beit Lahia ] has been struck and ten people including women and children killed.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:43 AM

Hamas really does not want a peaceful and just settlement with the Israelis.



Hamas Charter:

Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:38 AM

Israel really does not want a peaceful and just settlement with the Palestinians.

It seeks the total capitulation of the Palestinians so that they can either be driven into further exile or live in small bantustans on the West Bank or in the overcrowded and heavily controlled and locked down refugee city of Gaza.

Israel has been in existence for 60 years. For 40 years Israel has illegally occupied the West Bank and controlled its indiginous Palestinian population.

In the 40 years of occupation successive governments have encouraged or allowed the building of paramilitary settlements on the occupied territories. These settlers have stolen land,intimidated and humiliated the Palestinian inhabitants and taken water supplies for their own use.The giant Apartheid Wall is only the latest aspect of this land grab.

The Israeli staTe has imprisoned large numbers of Palestinian males [and women and children ] often without trial and allegations of prison beatings,torture and maltreatment are rife.

The settling of hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens on the West Bank has made the whole notion of a just and lasting two state solution completely unworkable.Incidentally, many of these armed settlers come from Russia or the USA...and they have the chutzpah to tell the Palestinians to get out of their homes.

If the two state solution is unworkable then what about a one state solution?

The Israeli government would not even consider that idea for one minute because it would have to concede voting and civil rights to the Palestinian people which would lead to the end of the zionist state.

Instead Israel seeks to dehumanise the Palestinian people as if they have no human right to dignity or even life itself.What else explains its readiness to flatten apartment blocks with huge bombs and kill hundreds of civilians ?

These massacres and mass murders are not some by product of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians they are state policy.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:21 AM

"heatherblether " vs "hatherblather", Art-

This has been done before. As long as the name is different, it seems allowable- although I would use "anti-name" instead.


Both have the right to express their opinions- and be criticised for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:19 AM

The only basis on which it ever can be possible to seek to justify actions that kill innocent people is that somehow these will reduce the harm done by the people you are directing those actions against.

That applies just as much to dropping bombs and carrying out "air strikes" as it does to planting bombs or firing rockets. It applies both to actions aimed at killing political opponents, or seeking to terrorise a civilian population into ceasing to support them.

That basis does not exist in this conflict. The only outcome of the killing is more killing in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:24 AM

this is for people on both sides of the 'war' in Gaza

what kind of man by Eric Bogle

What kind of man is he and which cause did he use
When he placed the bomb, when he set the fuse
did he walk away crying liberty
and if he did what kind of man was he

did he sleep well the night deft to to dying last screams
did no bloody ghosts walk through his dreams
does he shed innocent blood as part of a grand strategy
and if does what kind of man is he

ch
for all the tears and mourning
for all those you've maimed and killed
for all the murdered children
god damn your soul to hell

is he a family man does he any kids
will they ever understand what their father did
does he use noble words like freedom form tyranny
and if he does what kind of man is he

are you out tonight wearing your everyman's face
do you still see yourself as part of the human race
in spite of the murder you've done and the killing that you've yet to do
and that's why I ask what kind of man are you

from Gethsemane to Auschwitz the man with the gun
has stood between us and what we could of become
shall we be dragged once again into barbarity
if we let them do that what kind of men are we

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:47 AM

The BBC news website reported this morning that the american school in northern Gaza has been largely destroyed by the Israeli military and one person killed in the attack.
Would this have been a Hamas facility?

Far more likely is that the Israeli warplanners have deliberately planned to saturate Gaza with a variety of missiles ,shells and one tonne bombs as a form of overkill in order to break the will of the Palestinian population of Gaza.

They tried this terror tactic in the suburbs of Beirut and elsewhere in the Lebanon during its 2006 attack which cost the lives of thousands of civilians and destroyed much of the civilian infrastructure of that country.

The tactic failed then both in military and political terms and there is every possibility that it will fail in Gaza.

Israel is keeping the world's media out of Gaza but there are enough independent journalists inside the city for the world to see the appalling carnage being waged on its citizens. These pictures,videos etc are being shown across the world and there are growing protests at what is being perpetrated by the Israeli military machine there in a planned way.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:53 PM

Isn't there a rule about people signing in under members' names and expressing contrary opinions? Joe Clones? You out there?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,hatherblather
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:38 PM

There is only ONE side that has committed indiscriminate aggression against civilians for a period of months with negligible counterforce until recently- THe HAMAS with rocket after rocket and the only reason they didn't kill a lot of school children is that the school they hit was closed due to, wait for it, FEAR OF ROCKET ATTACK.

The Arabs and the Jew-haters are playing an old old game: They see the blood shed by Arabs as blood, and the blood shed by Jews as: paint. It is unfortunate that so many bystanders are sucked into the similarly old game of bitching at the side that shows more civilization because that's the one more likely to respond to humanitarian concerns.

The HAMAS are showing inhumanity not only to the Israelis, but to the Palestinians who hve been ruled by a terror organization that does not hesitate to quell dissent in their own ranks by unlimited violence. That is how they took over Gaza, by murdering anyone from Fatah who opposed them. They are sheltering among fellow Palestinians on purpose in order to make the most of their countryman's bloodshed.

If the Palestinians protest being forced to harbor militiamen and rocket brigades among their houses, they are going to be shot by Hamas and presto! More civilian victims for the cameras!

They are beneath contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:54 PM

But the USA has refused to ban "anti-personnel weapons" such as cluster bombs, which most other countries have at last outlawed. As I indicated, there is a good hope that there will be a change in this policy with the new administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:05 PM

McGrath, the US has banned the use of chemical and biological weapons, and destroyed its stockpile of chemical weapons many years ago...it never had any biological weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:48 PM

"If Israel invades Gaza, we will declare open warfare without limits..."

That is what Hamas have been trying to provoke for several years.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:47 PM

Nasty things - but they don't even begin to compare with the horrifying stuff our lot have persisted in using. Except at least the UK is one of the mass of countries that have now outlawed such weapons). The USA and Israel, along with a few other significant rogue states, such as Russia and China, have refused to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:42 PM

[Planned Chemical Warhead for Qassam Missile]


In February 2002, Middle East Newsline reported that Palestinian terrorist elements were developing a chemical warhead for the Qassam-class missile. In December 2005, media reports indicated that Palestinian terrorists were preparing Qassam missiles with chemical warheads.

In June 2006, Fatah announced the development of chemical and biological weapons and claimed to possess 20 biological warheads for Qassam rockets.

"With the help of Allah, we are pleased to say that we succeeded in developing over 20 different types of biological and chemical weapons, this after a three-year effort...We say to (Prime Minister Ehud) Olmert and (Defense Minister Amir) Peretz: Your threats of invasion do not frighten us. We will surprise you with new weapons you have not faced until now. As soon as an IDF soldier sets foot on Gazan land, we will respond with a new weapon."



The organization noted it would not hesitate to use the substances, adding they could be placed on rockets similar to those fired at Israeli communities surrounding Gaza.

"If Israel invades Gaza, we will declare open warfare without limits..."

Fatah also claimed to have fired one rocket with a checmical warhead at southern Israel. However, the IDF did not detect the launch of such a rocket. 3

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:42 PM

There is only one side committing mass murder in Gaza ...Israel.In the past few days alone 19 Palestinian children have been killed by Israel bombs and missiles fired from F16 warplanes and helicopter gunships.
I don't know how the Israeli media representatives can keep a straight face when they talk about targetting Hamas members and facilities.
Gaza is one of the most densely packed cities in the world built by Palestinian refugees from what is now Israel. Their homes and apartment blocks are being bombed and strafed by the most sophisticated US made killing machines in the world.
Streets, clinics and even a children's hospital have been attacked.
Some 2000 Gazans have been injured by shrapnel,collapsing walls,bomb blast etc
One young Downs Syndrome boy is now lying in a hospital with severe spinal injuries .His parents have been killed in the same explosion that injured him.
All this after a siege of Gaza which has lasted the best part of two years with goods and movement controlled and halted by Israel. Only a few days ago the Israeli attacked a small cabin cruiser bringing medical supplies from Cyprus to Gaza.The small boat was carrying international observers but was rammed and turned away although the attack was filmed.
Gaza is struggling to survive in ghetto like conditions with sewage flooding the streets,apartment blocks collapsed across roads and barely any power for lighting or heating.Needless to say the hospitals are also under attack and have barely survived the carnage being imposed by the Israeli war planners.
Major war crimes are being committed in Gaza and indeed across the whole of the occupied territories which are being illegally controlled and subdued by Israel. A test of the international law system is whether these criminals will be brought to trial and made to answer for the barbarism they continue to inflict on the million plus people living in Gaza.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:17 PM

http://arizona.indymedia.org/print.php?id=46855

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:16 PM

http://feraljundi.com/2008/12/29/weapons-the-9k132-grad-p-rocket/

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:16 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:14 PM

The rockets are fired largely at civilian populations. Although they rarely kill, they are designed to do so, are indiscriminate, and have on occasion been fired at times coinciding with children's journeys to school.[

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:51 PM

"I have not read of any material (nuts and bolts) being loaded in these specific missiles. "

Then you have made an effort to avoid that information, since many reports have been available from June 2006 onward. The effects have been shown on numerous TV reports, and fragments have been displayed showing the construction.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:18 PM

"where would you take shelter in a reasonable time frame?"
"Under the car or on the side away from the missile, with the bulk of the car as protection".

From what I have seen, the liklihood of thse missles hitting you is very remote (how many are shot off and what has been the causalities).

I have not read of any material (nuts and bolts) being loaded in these specific missiles. Since they are not too sophisticated, and already have a limited range, I would be surprised if they were packed with heavy nuts and bolts. The missiles I have seen on TV come pretty much straight down, (and you not get much notice), so rushing to hide under your car seems like more of a PR exercise, as was the 1950's advice to get under a table to protect yourself during a nuclear bomb strike.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: The Barden of England
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:27 PM

As always, the politicians will fight to the last civilian

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 04:44 PM

I'm sure that everyone would wish that there would be no further killing, bruce. But some people do appear to think that Israel should continue with what it is doing, and that this will achieve some good result. I would hope that Hamas could cut out the rockets, regardless of what Israel does, and I haven't seen any critic of Israel here who seems to disagree with that.

The point is, from whichever side it comes, the violence is self-defeating, and will inevitably lead to many more people on both sides being killed.

..........................

"In addition, the militants often pack them with nuts, bolts, ball- bearings and even bullets, so as to cause maximum harm."

Cluster bombs in other words - disgusting weapons whoever makes and uses them. Let us hope that the new government in Washington will at last take the USA into the treaty which outlaws these, and put effective pressure on Israel to do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

....
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice accused Hamas' leaders of holding the people of Gaza hostage and said an end to violence would only be possible once Hamas stopped firing rockets into Israel. She said the United States continues to seek a "durable and sustainable" cease-fire.

"The Hamas has used Gaza as a launching pad for rockets against Israeli cities, and has contributed deeply to a very bad daily life for the Palestinian people in Gaza and to a humanitarian situation that we have all been trying to address," she said. "We are working toward a cease-fire that would not allow a re-establishment of the status quo."

International calls for a cease-fire have been growing, and French President Nicolas Sarkozy is expected in the region next week. Rice said she had no plans to come to the region.

Israel has targeted Hamas leaders in the past but halted the practice during a six-month truce that expired last month. Most of Hamas' leaders went into hiding at the start of the Israeli offensive on Dec. 27.

Israeli troops in bases in southern Israel are awaiting orders to invade Gaza. But Israel also appears to be open to the intense diplomatic efforts by Arab and European leaders, saying it would consider stopping its punishing aerial assaults if international monitors were brought in to track compliance with any truce with Hamas.

Israel began its campaign to try to halt weeks of intensifying Palestinian rocket fire from Gaza. The offensive has dealt a heavy blow to Hamas but has not stopped the rockets, which continue to strike deeper and deeper into Israel. Three Israeli civilians and one soldier have been killed in the rocket attacks.

More than 30 rockets were fired into southern Israel on Friday, slightly injuring four. Sirens warning Israelis to take cover when military radar picks up an incoming rocket have helped reduce casualties in recent days.

.......

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM

"where would you take shelter in a reasonable time frame?"

Under the car or on the side away from the missile, with the bulk of the car as protection.


"In addition, the militants often pack them with nuts, bolts, ball- bearings and even bullets, so as to cause maximum harm."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 02:58 PM

Have you any reason to think those here who support Israel wouldn't wish that no civilians ion either side were killed or hurt, and haven't expressed that wish, in common with all the people on this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 02:11 PM

So, if you are driving in a car....where would you take shelter in a reasonable time frame? In most cases, seems like the car may be the best shelter you have?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 02:07 PM

Have they asked Hamas to stop launching rockets?

Have you any reason to think they wouldn't wish that to happen, and haven't expressed that wish, in common with all the people on this thread who have been critical of Israel's actions?

...........................
"...told...not to wear seatbelts so as to be able to take shelter quickly if necessary>..."/I>

That doesn't sound very sensible advice. The number of people killed in road accidents in Israel in the last year is far higher than the number killed by Hamas rockets. Several hundred times higher, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:41 AM

Khaleej Times Online >> News >> REGION Palestinian missile attacks on Israel(DPA)

31 December 2008   

TEL AVIV - Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip first fired a missile at Israel on October 27, 2001. Since then, around 10,300 rockets and mortar shells have been launched at southern Israel, the non-profit Sderot Media Centre, which keeps a toll, said.

The projectiles have killed 32 Israelis, including four since Hamas and other militant groups responded to the current Israeli air offensive in the Gaza Strip by showering Israel with missiles.

Prior to the Israeli attacks, which began on Saturday, at least 600 people have been wounded by the rockets, and hundreds more treated for shock and hysteria.

The first rockets were relatively improvised, locally-manufactured affairs, with ranges not exceeding 10 kilometres. But the militant groups have since been increasing the range of the weapons in their arsenal, acquiring for example long-range Grad missiles.

They are now able to hit targets 40 kilometres from the Gaza Strip, placing around 1,000,000 Israelis in danger, police spokesman Mickey Rosenfeld said.

The Grad missiles apart, the rockets are usually between 1.6 and 2 metres in length, and can carry up to six kilogrammes of explosives.

In addition, the militants often pack them with nuts, bolts, ball- bearings and even bullets, so as to cause maximum harm.

The relatively small number of casualties, compared to the number of missiles fired, has to do with lack of precision, which causes many to land in open areas. Israeli Foreign Ministry Official Andy David says the small number of Israeli casualties is due to the fact that most people take shelter once alerted to incoming missiles. All the Israeli fatalities, he notes, were caught out in the open when the rockets struck.

The issue, he says, is not the number of Israeli fatalities, but the number of rockets fired with the intention of causing harm and panic.

Israeli law makes the country the only one in the world where every building is required to have a bomb shelter and in Sderot and other Israeli communities close to the Gaza border, many people have constructed shelters, usually of metal, inside their homes.

Residents have been told to huddle in the stairwell of their building in apartment blocks where there may not be enough time to take shelter from the missiles. Sderot residents, for example, have only 15 seconds from the time a missile alert is broadcast.

In addition, many concrete 'umbrellas' have been erected over schools in locations on the firing line.

Since the current Israeli air offensive and Palestinian rocket offensive began, Israelis living close to the Gaza Strip have been told to remain at home, not to congregate in public places and, when driving, to leave the window open, to reduce the risk of flying glass should a missile land, and not to wear seatbelts so as to be able to take shelter quickly if necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:33 AM

"Care to show me any reports of synagogues with armories and explosives stored in them?"

They don't need to hide their armouries though do they? After all the US is busy supplying them.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:29 AM

Why?




Have they asked Hamas to stop launching rockets?




Or is it Ok to kill Jews and Israeli Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM

Twenty one members of the "Anarchists Against The Wall" organisation have been arrested outside a North Tel Aviv airbase after trying to block the entrance by lying across the road.
They were trying to show the Israeli bomber pilots the carnage they were causing on the ground while they [the pilots ] were flying far removed from the slaughter in their planes high above the ruined city of Gaza.
Respect to them!
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:39 AM

McGrath,

Care to show me any reports of synagogues with armories and explosives stored in them?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:35 AM

And when Hamas issues a statement saying "Hamas will not hesitate to strike those involved in terrorism against the Palestinian people, even if they deliberately choose to operate from locations of religious or cultural significance" that will, quite correctly, be taken as a commitment to further terrorist violence.

The people making the decisions on both sides share a common mind-set, not surprisingly. The regimes on both sides were born out of terrorist activity.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:15 AM

"The mosque was used as a storage site for a large amount of Grad missiles, Qassam rockets and additional weaponry," an Israel Defense Forces spokesman said. "The strike set off a lengthy series of secondary explosions and a large fire, caused by the ammunitions stockpiled in the mosque."

An IDF statement said it "will not hesitate to strike those involved in terrorism against the citizens of the state of Israel, even if they deliberately choose to operate from locations of religious or cultural significance."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:09 AM

Yup, keep using those Mosques as military headquaters, armories, and launch sites- best way I know to add to the violations of the Geneva Conventios that area mass bombardmant of civilians provides.



"Israel launched the offensive Saturday after more than a week of intense Palestinian rocket fire that followed the expiration of a six-month truce, which Hamas refused to extend because Israel kept up its blockade of Gaza. "

And the blockade was because of continuous rocket firings from 2007 onward.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 09:49 AM

Yup, keep bombing those Mosques back into the stone age!- best wayI know to win hearts and minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:44 AM

Cold-eze, John... And keep the heck away from Karl...

*grin*...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:59 PM

Israel have short memories. The Government of Israel attacked an American ship in international waters on June 8, 1967. On this bright, sunny day the ship had been positively identified as American and friendly. This very fact has been repeated by the attackers, Israel. They knew we were there but around 1:00 they forgot about us. This was the excuse given, that they accidentally took us off their war table, like they just vanished into thin air.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:58 PM

Hey Bobert, I caught cold today. I sure wish Karl Rove wouldn't cause me to get one.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:49 PM

Bobert, I agree, hope can re-emerge under the right circumstances. a friend gave me a silver talisman at Christmas, with a dove on one side and the word hope on the other. I keep it in my wallet to remind myself, it is a powerful concept.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:14 PM

BINGO! Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 10:46 PM

What hope is there when political parties that seek compromise are seen as corrupt or selling out. And when the poeple who support them are marginalised, assassinated, detained or executed.

To me, the real problem is those who seek only a military solution - on both sides. And the keyboard generals who propagate further violence as a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 07:40 PM

You have it all wrong, pdq...

Sticks alone have never worked and they won't work here...

If you want the Palestinians to quit supporting Hamas in Gaza, yer gonna have to give them something to "hope" for... Not to "fear"... These people know all about fear and look where it has gotten everyone... Terrorism is what you are advocating and terrorism is one thing that every man, woman and chile in Gaza understands very, very well...

Terroism hasn't worked for either side...

Brinf on some "carrots", please...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM

Here is the difference: if Hamas stops bombing Israel the fighting will stop. If Israel stops bombing Gaza, the Hamas millitants will buy more bombs and keep their unproved attacks going.

Israel cannot remove the Hamas terrorists from power. Israel has targeted their houses and businesses in recent days, but Hamas is still in power. The people of Gaza must do their own house cleaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 07:17 PM

"If the people of Gaza want it badly enough, it will happen.

That is the pourpose of the current bombing campiagn. Make it painful enough and the people will throw out the troublemakers"

A concise definition of terrorism!

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 07:11 PM

The method chosen by Israel for changing the minds of Palestinians in Gaza is through bombing and destruction.

One side has far more powerful weapons - but both are relying on the same method. Terror.

On both sides the civilian population have placed their trust in organisations which are engaged in terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 07:08 PM

If the people of Gaza want it badly enough, it will happen.

That is the pourpose of the current bombing campiagn. Make it painful enough and the people will throw out the troublemakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:59 PM

Be nice, pdq... How ya' gonna achieve that???

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:34 PM

"Fear of the rockets pervades Israeli border towns, constantly sending residents dashing to bomb shelters, hampering businesses, disrupting schools and causing stress-related disorders..."

That is exactly what a terrorist group is supposed to do. Hamas is a terrorist group. Gaza must be returned to Fatah and the Hamas leadership must be made to face serious consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:29 PM

I agree, Freda, that the Sauid Proposal is not a panecia for the Middle East... Nothin' could be that... But it does put some pressure on the Arab states to police their own behaviors... That would give Israel some level of security and if that occured then and the rest of the worls tried to re-engage the Palestianians, especially in Gaza, then the paradym would have a chnace to change where people in Gaza wouldn't feel so helpless and thereby not vote for radicals...

It's going to be a long process but it isn't impossible... Getting the basic's of the Saudi Proposal into the discussion is a great first step...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM

The state of Israel was born 60 years ago through the massacre and exiling of Palestinians....many of whom fled to Gaza.Today they and their children and grandchildren are still being massacred and maimed in their hundreds including many women and children. The horror of the air bombardment can be seen on many news channels including Al Jazeera.
There is a difference however between 1948 and today...now the Palestinians are penned in with Israel controlling the air ,land and sea routes in and out of Gaza while its bombers and helicopter gunships fire off their shells and bombs with almost total impunity.The Palestinians cannot escape even if they want to.
The bitter irony is that many of these Gazan Palestinians actually come from just north of Gaza in what is now Israel.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:26 PM

"Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 04:50 PM

At this point, what is desperately needed is good old fashioned diplomacy..."





"Even as it pursued its bombing campaign, Israel kept the way open for intense efforts by leaders in the Middle East and Europe to arrange a cease-fire. Israel said it would consider a halt to fighting if international monitors were brought in to track compliance with any truce."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090101/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians




Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."


Hamas Charter

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:20 PM

Fatah have always been notoriously corrupt...they are to the Palestinian cause as Tony Blair was to Socialism.

A fair settlment will never be achieved by negotiations, compromise will mean an end to Palestinian aspirations..... and they know it only too well,having been forced to live and bring up their families in the worlds biggest prison. Sometimes people have no option but to fight to the death.....as in the warsaw ghetto....ironically!

A settlment must be imposed by the major world powers in tandem with the United Nations, but agreement for this will be nigh impossible while American policy is determined by Jewish interests..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM

The Saudi suggestion is just as unlikely to be accepted by Hamas as by Israel. Hamas' covenant states that "so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences" are "in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement", stating "there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad".

Hamas targets Palestinian "moderates" as harshly as it targets Israelis. Hamas regards Fatah members as its enemies once Fatah moved towards a position of being prepared to negotiate with Israel. Hamas has been detaining Fatar supporters as it detains Israelis. There have been allegations of torture of unarmed Palestinian protesters who object to Hamas methods. In October 2008, Hamas announced it would release all political prisoners in their custody in Gaza. Several hours after the announcement, 17 Fatah members were released.( Hamas frees Fatah prisoners, Al-Jazeera, October 30, 2008.)

Human Rights Watch has cited a number of summary executions of Palestinians by Hamas, including the case of Muhammad Swairki, 28, a cook for Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's presidential guard, who was thrown to his death, with his hands and legs tied, from a 15-story apartment building in Gaza City.

Tensions between Hamas and Fatah is called Wakseh among Palestinians, meaning humiliation, ruin, and collapse as a result of self-inflicted damage.

On November 12 2007, a large demonstration dedicated to the memory of late Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat was organized by Fatah in Gaza City. With over 200,000 participants, this was the largest Fatah demonstration in the Gaza strip since the Hamas takeover. The demonstration was forcibly dispersed by Hamas gunmen, who fired into the crowd. At least six civilians were killed and over 80 people were injured, some from being trampled in the resulting stampede.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 04:50 PM

I don't think you'll find much arguement that Hamas ain't like a menatlly ill next door neighbor.... Firing rockets against unknown populations is a purdy screwed up thing to do...

What bothers me is how Hamas came into power and it's kinda like we're having to eat our own cooking here... Turning our backs on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and then trying to starve out innocent Palestinians will get ya' some rather messed up folks any day of the week...

There seems less desperation and less radicalism in the West Bank and whereas the West Bank is no model for how to create any level of justice and equality in the region it is an example of what happens when people aren't starved out...

We will not see any progress in Gaza until we realize that poverty isn't the greatest motivator to act right... Just pisses people off...

So, I am looking forward to seeing a return to diplomacy and more carrots and less sticks.... Seems it has been forever since we've had a more pragmatic approach...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 04:05 PM

..."Hamas' homemade rocket, known informally as the Qassam, is grossly imprecise, carries a small warhead of about 22 pounds of explosives. They have caused casualties but more often just spark panic.

The imported missiles, Katyushas, are better guided, travel farther and cause more damage because they have a warhead of up to 44 pounds, roughly the weight of a cannon shell from one of Israel's Merkava tanks.

Such rockets were at the heart of the monthlong war between Hezbollah and Israel in 2006. Hezbollah fired up to 4,000 rockets at Israeli towns even as Israel's warplanes pounded launch sites and its troops took large swaths of southern Lebanon.

Now, it's the turn of the Palestinian militants of Hamas. Israel's air assault in the Gaza Strip, which began Saturday, will be a major test of the military's ability to stop Hamas rocket fire into southern Israel.

Israel vowed to destroy Hezbollah's rocket capabilities in the 2006 war, but while it inflicted heavy losses on the movement's fighters, it couldn't stop missile firing. And Hezbollah's leaders boast the group has rebuilt its arsenal to some 30,000 rockets."

-------------------------------------------------------------

And the UN ceasefire terms were that Hezboallah would not be allowed to get more rockets- is there any reason Israel should stop before it destroys Hamas, since it knows the UN will not enforce any ceasefire terms on anyone other than Israel???

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

..."Hamas has taken up rockets as its main weapon because they make such walls irrelevant and enable it to cause casualties without sacrificing fighters in ground raids. Also, while rockets cannot match the firepower of Israel's military, they are highly effective in spreading fear among residents of Israel's southern cities.

Hamas has fired at least 5,500 rockets since seizing Gaza in 2007, killing four Israelis before the air campaign was launched, according to the Israeli military.

But the impact goes far beyond casualties. Fear of the rockets pervades Israeli border towns, constantly sending residents dashing to bomb shelters, hampering businesses, disrupting schools and causing stress-related disorders, like anxiety and bed-wetting. Experts say industries in Israel's south have lost up to $2 million a day because of disruptions from rockets.

Since Israel launched its Gaza offensive, the Hamas barrages have intensified, with hundreds fired, killing four more Israelis, including a soldier.

More significantly, the range of Hamas' rockets has increased, with Katyushas reaching as far as Beersheba, 22 miles from Gaza, nearly twice the range of the Qassams. Israeli officials say at least a tenth of the country's 7 million people and some of its largest cities are now in range of the missiles.

Even more of Israel is within reach of Hezbollah's rockets, but so far that group has stayed out of the conflict. It is widely thought to be reluctant to start hostilities with Israel because it does not want a repeat of the widespread damage to Lebanon from the 2006 war and because of its new place in Lebanon's unity government.

Israeli defense officials estimate that Hamas had 3,000 rockets before the fighting began Saturday and that around 1,000 of those have been either fired or destroyed by Israeli airstrikes.

"Rockets have come to symbolize asymmetrical warfare, but they are more about just symbolism in the Arab world," said Amal Saad-Ghorayeb, a Hezbollah expert in Lebanon. "They are not designed to defeat the enemy, just to wear it down." "

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:58 PM

There are no grounds for thinking that Palestinians would be any less or any more humane in their treatment of their opponents than Israelis, if their situations were somehow switched around.

Typically medical staff in all circumstances will treat whoever they are in a position to treat.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM

Well, John...

Seein' as the Palestinan hospitals are allready overflowin' I doubt very much that an injured Israeli would get poster-boy status in those over-packed hospitals...

And, yeah, I do put alot of this blame on the Bush/Rove administration... Thay made their choices in 2001 to not be part of a continued effort that goes back to Jimmy Carter of every administartion, including other Republican ones, to abandon trying to broker peace between the Israelis and the Palistinians...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 12:52 PM

When the facts don't fit your perception, Bobert, mention the ubiquitous Republican. That's a really cogent argument.

I notice you ignored the other comment I made in that post....hmmm!

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 12:45 PM

The fact that it is being reported that 12 Palestians are being treated in Israeli hospitals sounds to me like some PR stuff on the part of the Israelis... Like how did these Palestinians get injured in the first place???

Well, I'll tell ya' how... The guy shootin' at 'um missed the shot an' accidently wounded them rather than killing them....

Hmmmmmmmm???

Me sniffs a little Karl Rove at work here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 12:27 PM

The following is the lead from "Haaretz", from a story, today, in the liberal, left (you choose your adjective) daily Israeli newspaper. You can read the whole article at Haaretz.com:

One wonders how many wounded Israelis would be so treated in Gaza, or southern Lebanon,by Hamas and Hezbullah respectively, if such an opportunity arose.


"Last update - 18:00 01/01/2009                         
12 Palestinians hurt in Gaza fighting being treated in Israeli hopsitals
By Fadi Eyadat and Dana Viler-Pollak
Tags: Gaza Strip, Israel News, IDF

Twelve Palestinians have been evacuated to Israel for medical treatment since Operation "Cast Lead" began last Saturday in the Gaza Strip, as the hospitals in Gaza strain to accommodate the hundreds of wounded. For one Gaza boy, being treated in an Israeli hospital should increase his chances of making a full recovery."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:49 AM

So, Peace, we are agreed that firing rockets at Israel is the wrong thing to do, and that bombing Gaza is the wrong thing to do.

And also, I hope, that the people doing those things are not particularly wicked people, but sincerely, though mistakenly, think they have no alternative, and that their actions will somehow make things better or stop them getting worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 10:37 AM

That really wasn't the point I was trying to make, Bobert.

The Israeli's are letting aid through. Per Reuters earlier today: Israel has allowed in around 100 trucks loaded with humanitarian supplies on each of the past two days, but that comes after months of severe economic blockade and big shortfalls in Gaza of food and medical supplies. The UN said it was still well short of what was needed and described the humanitarian situation in Gaza, home to 1.5 million Palestinians, as "alarming".

Yes, it is insufficient, without question - but why is the "enemy" helping rather than the Palestinians' fellow Arabs? Why can't Syria, Iran, the Saudis and so forth land massive levels of supplies, not only for the crisis but on an ongoing basis, at Port Sa'id and move these along the coast road (Route 30) along with Egypt's own contribution? Why is Israel responsible for the economic support of Gaza rather than anyone else? The answer, by all reports, is that the mainstream Arab nations are just about as unhappy with Hamas as the Israelis are, but are perfectly willing to sit back and let them take the rap for the deplorable situation there.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 10:14 AM

"the operation would not end until Hamas militants quit firing rockets into the Jewish state."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 10:03 AM

I don't recalll where Eqypt bombed Palestianians or drove tanks thru anyones house...

But I recalll that last time this happened, it was the Egyptians who opened the barracades and provided humanitarian aid to the Palestians...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 09:45 AM

I always find it interesting that no one ever mentions the Egyptian blockade of Gaza, which is just as tight as the Israeli one, and which is imposed by a nation with which Hamas is not at eternal war.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 03:11 AM

It is completely untrue to say that Israel "evacuated" Gaza two years ago.
While the Israeli state pulled out the zionist paramilitary settler groups Israel kept control of the land,sea and air borders in and out of Gaza and started to impose a military and economic stranglehold on the city with the most terrible consequences for the civilian population which has been reduced to hunger,poverty and terror.

Palestinian fishing boats have been prevented from fishing in coastal waters,power stations have been blown up so that there is scarcely any electricity,The sewage system has been destroyed by Israeli shelling so that raw sewage is flooding streets and the mediterranean itself,hospitals and clinics are operating with only the barest of necessities,children on the beaches have been blown up by Israeli shells fired from a naval warship,women and children have been massacred in their homes by huge bombs.

Israel stands accused of collective punishment against the Palestinian people in Gaza.The UN representative, denied entry by Israel into Gaza, has accused Israel of war crimes against its civilian residents.

But "collective punishment" is not a new strategy.Only two years ago in Lebanon the Israeli military set out to destroy the infrastructure of the country and flattened apartment blocks,bridges,town centres,markets,roads.car convoys of refugees etc. In the process it killed and maimed thousands of civilians.Israel got a bloody nose then from Hezbollah despite its overwhelmingly superior military firepower.

In Israel itself there have been very brave demonstrations opposing the carnage which shows that there there are some in Israel itself who see the criminality of the actions of the Israeli state towards the people of Gaza.

On saturday the Palestine Solidarity Campaign has called a major demonstration against the bombing of Gaza in central London.Assemble at 12.30 outside the Embankment tube .
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Peace
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 11:38 PM

I do NOT think it is a good idea to bomb Gaza. (And I have registered my protest--which has never done any good in the past as I expect it won't in future. However, the usuals seem to nail Israel yet they do not nail the violence that has been carried out by Hamas. Strange, huh? These people like Israeli blood I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 09:00 PM

Hey, if ya' ain't into getting blowed up then don't pick gettin' born in the Middle East...

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 08:58 PM

Same place it always is. I'm against doing stuff like that. But I don't actually think there are many people around here who think that it is a good idea to do that kind of thing.

Unfortunately it's not quite the same when it comes to blowing up people in Gaza - there always seem to be a few who think that is a good idea...

Happy New Year anyway - I hope it will turn out a better one than it looks like being for the various people who have got themselves tangled up in the Holy Land through no fault of their own. On both sides and in the middle.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,hatherblather
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 08:57 PM

If you don't want peace,

You won't get it.

Israel evacuated Gaza not two years past, left some developed areas and commercial developments. Israel had to use Israeli police and soldiers to remove unwilling Israeli civilians.

Arabs living in Gaza have concentrated on activities that are less civilian and more sanguine (bloody). And have elected a government where one part took over by force, killing more fellow Arabs than Israel.

Violence begets violence

If you don't want peace,

You won't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Peace
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 08:39 PM

Or your voice, Ifor.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 08:16 PM

"There's an analogy with something like domestic violence or child abuse. It's always happened - but now we are more aware of it, and feel a responsibility to do something about it."

And where was YOUR voice when Hamas was pounding Israel with rockets?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 07:28 PM

A letter from "Jews For Justice For Palestine" to Gordon Brown the Prime Minister of the UK condemning the attack on Palestinian Gaza can be read on Indymedia UK.The letter condemns the carnage inflicted on the residents of Gaza who are being killed in their hundreds and wounded in their thousands as apartment blocks ,streets ,mosques and markets are targetted by F16 bombers and Apache helicopter gunships flying above this city of a million plus people.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 07:16 PM

To Artbrooks
The Palestinian people have experienced the "reality" that you mention.
They have been experiencing it for decades and it is an ugly and desperate reality...and that has nothing to do with my grammar or lack of it.
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 07:13 PM

FALSE RELIGION

Those who in the name of Faith embrace illusion,
Kill and are killed.
Even the atheist gets God's blessings –
Does not boast of his religion;
With reverence he lights the lamp of Reason
And pays his homage not to scriptures,
But to the good in man.

The bigot insults his own religion
When he slays a man of another faith.
Conduct he judges not in the light of Reason;
In the temple he raises the blood-stained banner
And worships the devil in the name of God.

All that is shameful and barbarous through the Ages,
Has found a shelter in their temples –
Those they turn into prisons;
O, I hear the trumpet call of Destruction!
Time comes with her great broom
Sweeping all refuse away.

That which should make man free,
They turn into fetters;
That which should unite,
They turn into a sword;
That which should bring love
From the fountain of the Eternal,
They turn into poison
And with its waves they flood the world.
They try to cross the river
In a bark riddled with holes;
And yet, in their anguish, whom do they blame?

O Lord, breaking false religion,
Save the blind!
Break! O break
The altar that is drowned in blood.
Let your thunder strike
Into the prison of false religion,
And bring to this unhappy land
The light of Knowledge.

Rabindranath Tagore (1861-1941)

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 06:08 PM

Well, Art, is is a "proposal", not a final product... I've never said that it should agreed upon point by point... What I have siad, however, is that it provides a framework for progress in the Middle East, which BTW there seems to be an absence of these days...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 05:36 PM

Bobert, I've never heard anyone say that the Arab states, much less either of the main Palestinian factions, think that the Saudi proposal is at all negotiable. If they would float it, or something like it, as the starting point for discussions there might be some chance for it.

Heatherblather, I'm afraid that you have no appreciation for reality, not to mention grammar, spelling or punctuation.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 04:50 PM

At this point, what is desperately needed is good old fashioned diplomacy...

I hate to keep harping on the "Saudi Proposal" but it was a good working framework for an end to most of the conflicts but the problem was that at the time the Saudis put it out in 2002 it would have gotten in the way of the Bush War Machine....

It still has all the makings of being possibly the only plan that has any chance of working for both the short and long run...

And the beauty is that it is regional... The Isreali/Palestianian conflict is just part of a larger agreement that would put alot of responsibilty for making it work on Arab nations as well as Isreal...

At some point something like this plan will get a second look... Right now, the upcoming elections in Isreal are playing into the equation... Sound familiar???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 04:19 PM

olddude..Amen!

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: olddude
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 03:59 PM

When will any of them learn
and eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth
and the whole fucking world ends up blind and toothless
and another generation of kids grows up to learn a path of hate, death and violence.

shame on both sides .... until someone has the courage to change it all nothing will change ... and generations both sides die

We need a statesman on both sides to say enough. Someone needs to stand up and say this doesn't work ... and the people in Gaza. They fire rockets because they cannot feed their kids, cannot have a good school or decent way of life. That is no excuse to abject killing, but it fosters hate ...

build a fucking wall ... that serves a great purpose ...

Nothing changes and the body count just goes on

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 03:57 PM

Israel has never sought peace with the Palestinians. Ever since the state of Israel was founded in 1948 on land stolen from the Palestinians it has sought to drive them out of the physical and political arena.
It expelled some 700000 Palestinians from the new state in 1948 and then subsequently harried these refugees in their camps and in neighbouring countries.
They have been slaughtered in their dozens,their hundreds and in their thousands at places like Sabra and Shatilla,Qana ,Jenin and now in Gaza.
Israeli assassination squads have ranged with impunity on the West Bank, mosques have been desecrated,tens of thousands of Palestinian homes have been demolished, international observers have been shot dead, children rounded up and beaten until their limbs have been broken and hundreds of thousands of Palestinian men along with women and children imprisoned and mistreated in the dozens of Israeli prisons built for them.
The Israeli military are serving up more of the same barbarity in Gaza with the smug connivance of the USA and Britain....but it isnt going to work.
The original ideals of the Zionists have long gone and what the workld is increasingly seeing are the brutal, thuggish and short sighted actions of a government that knows nothing except "to send good boys from good homes to do bad things".
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: DougR
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 03:43 PM

Peace: your post dated December 31, 2008, 1:15AM. Excellent.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 02:00 PM

....and there you have it. Serving as background to all the political rhetoric and 'historical' claims from BOTH sides is the religious 'justification' of three different factions.

   "God TOLD us we have the right to be here"...or variations on that theme.

1) since God surely would not have 'told' all factions that THEY are 'favored' over the others.
2)then most likely, no 'God' told anyone anything of the sort!
3)therefore some of the basic premises fueling this conflict are likely false, but still easy to believe, since no one can 'prove' otherwise, and folks want to believe what supports their personal & political interests.
4)** from false premises, ANYTHING follows!**


...and thus, it seems, nothing will change unless one side obliterates the other. (the obvious solution...'share the damned place'... is never even considered, because like two little kids, someone will always be yelling "No fair! You gave him the best share!"

some of you JUST-DON'T-GET-IT, and will continue micro-arguing teeny details about dates and demographics forever!
And because of my points above, I guess you just really can't do otherwise.

......further, deponent sayeth not.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 01:43 PM

"And yet the historical record shows the complete opposite"

Actually, the historical record shows that the Moslim population has increased, along with the Jewish one. It is in the Moslim nations that one group has been removed, not in Israel.

Hamas has demonstrated it would rather kill Israelis than have it's own children live.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 01:28 PM

Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 01:13 PM

"If we give them any more they will eat us alive."
Gabi Aronov

There we have it summed up.Here is an Israeli citizen who appears to think that the Israeli state has been over generous to the Palestinian people.
And yet the historical record shows the complete opposite.
In the 1880s the Zionists arrived in Palestine with a plan to create a Jewish state at the expense of the majority population ...the Palestinian population which had lived in that land for countless generations.
Everything the zionists did from then on was designed to separate themselves from the rest of the people of Palestine.
And of course as time has past the oppression ,the state terror,the bombings, the camp massacres and the theft of land has become ever more stark and ever more barbaric culminating with the slaughtering of the women and children in their homes and on their streets.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 01:05 PM

Olmert says Gaza operation will continue
Posted: 12:14 PM ET

JERUSALEM (CNN) — On the fifth day of airstrikes on Gaza, Israel's prime minister vowed Wednesday the operation would not end until Hamas militants quit firing rockets into the Jewish state.
"We did not enter this operation in order to end it with the firing still continuing," Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said in a security cabinet meeting, according to a senior government official.
"Hamas broke this cease-fire," Olmert said. "If the conditions ripen" and if there is a solution "that promises a better security … we will consider it, but we are not there yet," he said, according to the official.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 08:44 AM

"Staring at the debris was Gabi Aronov, a 25-year-old factory worker, who was sent reeling in his apartment from the force of the blast. He said the Gaza withdrawal had brought his enemies closer to his doorstep.

"If we give them any more, they will eat us alive," he said.

School was canceled in large swaths of southern Israel on Tuesday, many businesses shut and traffic thinned. Newspapers and TV stations displayed color-coded maps informing Israelis that they had 15, 30 or 45 seconds to reach cover after the siren goes off. In Ashdod malls, directions to the nearest shelters were posted.

Israeli hard-liners maintain that every withdrawal brings Israel's enemies closer: They say the Oslo accords negotiated in the Norwegian capital in the 1990s turned parts of the West Bank into breeding grounds for suicide bombers; the 2000 pullback from south Lebanon brought Hezbollah closer to Israel.

In 2006 Hezbollah rockets reached Hadera, a city 27 miles north of Tel Aviv, and Israeli intelligence believes the Lebanese militia now has rockets that can reach 125 miles, far beyond Tel Aviv — meaning the vast majority of Israelis are in range.

"The historical lesson of Oslo, of Lebanon and of Gaza proves that with every concession, every territory we leave is used for attacks against us," said Yaakov Amidror, a former general now with the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs.

"

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 08:37 AM

Vulnerable Israeli homefront rethinks withdrawals

       Associated Press Writers Aron Heller And Matti Friedman, Associated Press Writers –

13 mins ago AP –

ASHDOD, Israel – As Arab rockets reach ever deeper into Israel, they may be weakening what for years has been a cornerstone of Mideast peace efforts — an exchange of land for peace.

Israeli hard-liners have long warned that any territories Israel vacates will be used to attack it. They can now point to the Hamas missile that slammed into a bus stop in this port city Monday, killing a 39-year-old woman. It was fired from the Gaza Strip, which Israel gave up in 2005 and is now ruled by Hamas militants who reject the very existence of the Jewish state.

....

"Tel Aviv is the safest place we have," said Ben-Yosef, who works at a clothing store. "But it is starting to feel as if there are no safe places anymore."

At least one-tenth of the country's 7 million citizens and some of its largest cities are now in range of Gaza missiles, and millions more live within reach of Hezbollah rockets from Lebanon.

This has implications for the West Bank, where U.S.-led diplomacy long focused on a withdrawal that would make way for a Palestinian state at peace with Israel.

Israeli opponents of this strategy argue that such a peace would be too fragile to survive, and would bring Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and the nation's international airport within rocket range.

Orna Levy, 41, runs a jewelry store in Ashdod. She said she supported the withdrawal from Gaza and used to favor trading the West Bank for peace, even though she has a brother living in a Jewish settlement there.

"If we give them the West Bank too, who knows what will happen," she said.

Cities under missiles are nothing new to Israelis. Tel Aviv, the metropolitan heartland, was bombarded by Saddam Hussein's rockets in the 1991 Gulf War. Haifa, the third biggest city, was hit by Hezbollah in its 2006 war with Israel, and after Hamas took over Gaza, rocket fire at nearby towns promptly increased.

Israeli historian Michael Oren, a Georgetown University professor and fellow at the Shalem Center think tank in Jerusalem, said the events of recent days, and especially the international criticism of Israel's response, are likely to "compound Israelis' reluctance" to support further withdrawals.

"This has become a recurring nightmare for Israelis and has made them reluctant to give up strategically vital territory," Oren said.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 08:20 AM

I don't think that the Palestinian people will be very impressed by their constitutional rights in Israel or the occupied territories.
They have been hounded,oppressed,humiliated,imprisoned in large numbers,exiled,murdered,beaten up,had their houses demolished,collectively punished,orchards ripped up and an apartheid wall built through their land.
The barbaric air attack on Palestinian Gaza is only going to ensure further conflict and hatred.
Israel has trampled on the humanitarian ,international and civic rights of the Palestinians for several decades and I see no signs of that changing.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 07:27 AM

"what happens when a new people take over a country and displace the people who were there before. "

This is the part of what you say that I take exception to. The Jews that were in the West Bank, from biblical times, were driven out or killed in 1948- and the world thought that was ok, since the Jewish Homeland ( from 1923, the 25% of British Mandate Palestine that Jews were permitted to live in) was there to take them in- And Jordan ( the Arab Moslim Homeland 75% of British Mandate Palestine) took those Moslim Palestinians that were willing to live in peace.

Israel settled the 820,000 Arab Jews driven out of Arab Moslim nations: Why did the Arab Moslim nations not settle the 640,000 Palestinian Moslims who fled Israel? And why are there so many Arb Moslims who stayed in Israel, and so few Jews that were allowed to stay in the Moslim nations? As for displaced people, the Jews have a greater claim than the present residents of Gaza.

Israel has been trying to trade land for peace- Yet when they give up land, they get no peace. Seems like the world cannot expect Israel to keep giving up safty, and NOT take action against armed attacks on it's citizens, both Jewish and Moslim.




See my post of 30 Dec 08 - 09:40 AM for the Hamas Charter. Now look at the Israeli constitution: Which is a better protection of the "minority " rights of the people of the other religion living in the respective territories?

Oh, thats right- Jews are not allowed to live ( in Moslim Territories).

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 07:06 AM

The problem with seeing this attack as a desperate effort to stop Israelis being killed by these rockets runs up against the probability that the number of Israelis killed as a consequence of this attack will be very much higher than the number killed by these rockets.

Basically that rationale is spin. The rockets provide a cover for an attack that is founded far more on political considerations to do with the impending Israeli elections, and the lame duck presidency in the USA.
.................
There is no point in trying to demonise the other side in this tragic situation, whichever side that may be.

Ehud Barak when asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian said in a press interview "I would have joined a terrorist organization." The founders of Israel carried out actions that clearly fall within the definition of "terrorism" - and the same is arguably (at least) true of many of the actions carried out more recently.

If it were Israelis trapped in the Gaza strip, with a Palestinian state penning them in, there can be little doubt that they would be doing stuff like firing those rockets, futile gesture though it be. And it would be the Palestinians who would be carrying out a turkey shoot in Gaza.

This isn't about one lot of people being worse than the other, it about what happens when a new people take over a country and displace the people who were there before. It's happened before in all parts of the world, in ancient times as well as more recently across the whole of America. The difference here is that it's happening in a world where we know what is happening, and can see it as something that ought not to happen.

There's an analogy with something like domestic violence or child abuse. It's always happened - but now we are more aware of it, and feel a responsibility to do something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 04:40 AM

The Israeli state has been butchering the Palestinian people long before Hamas became a political force.
And the attack on Gaza has been quite indiscriminate in that the Israeli leadership has set out to kill,injure and terrorise the Palestinian civilian population in Gaza.
For example the first wave of the Israeli air attack started at 11.30am when the morning and afternoon school shifts of children were either heading to school or going home.
The Israeli political and military leadership with all its intelligence and months of planning for the attack knew that large numbers of Palestinian children would be out on the streets and vulnerable but went ahead with the attack and the slaughter anyway.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 01:15 AM

BTW, Kevin, if you think I am trying to paint Israel as being 'pure as the driven snow', think again. However, listening to the same claptrap over and over that Israel should just disappear is NOT part of my thinking. That is Hamas' philosophy. They avoid peace talks because their agenda is hatred and the destruction of the State of Israel. I am aware there is an election in February.

Estimates are that between 2002 and now, over 7000 rockets have been fired into Israel by various factions. Has has allowed it to happen over the last few years. SO, that said, what would YOU propose that would ensure the State of Israel its safety? Greeting cards won't cut it. Nor will 'passive resistance'. Does Israel play the game too? Indeed it does. But are we to assume that Hamas was working hard at getting the rockets OUT of Gaza? The mortars?

And if you were in striking distance of those rockets, would you ask the Israeli government to allow the attacks to continue so that Hamas "security forces" could sharpen their aim?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 01:02 AM

By Nidal al-Mughrabi

GAZA (Reuters) - Gaza was largely quiet on Wednesday with just two air strikes reported, a stark contrast with the previous four days of heavy aerial bombardment by Israeli warplanes against the Islamist Hamas-led enclave.

Foreign powers have increased pressure on both sides to halt hostilities and the falloff in military activity may be a sign the Jewish state might be inclined to lessen its assault, although both sides have been cool to the idea of a truce.

The Israeli cabinet on Wednesday will debate a French proposal for a 48-hour truce to allow aid into the enclave. Israeli media said ministers were divided over the idea.

The Haaretz daily reported Olmert was in favor of a ground operation while Defense Minister Ehud Barak wanted a 48-hour truce to test Hamas's readiness for a durable ceasefire.

Israel began attacking Gaza on December 27 against militants firing rockets.

An Israeli army spokesman said two air strikes, one on smuggling tunnels under the border with Egypt and another on government offices in Gaza City, were carried out on Wednesday. There were no reports of casualties.

Hamas said the onus was on Israel to stop the assaults while Israeli media quoted Prime Minister Ehud Olmert as saying the offensive was in the first of many stages.

Israeli media reported that cabinet ministers approved the mobilization of 2,500 army reservists, consolidating an earlier call-up of 6,500 soldiers for the garrison on the Gaza border.

Olmert's centrist government launched the military offensive six weeks before a February 10 election that opinion polls predict the opposition right-wing Likud party will win, with the goal of halting rocket attacks by militants in Gaza.

Medical officials put Palestinian casualties at 384 dead and more than 800 wounded. A United Nations agency said at least 62 of the dead were civilians. Four Israelis have been killed.

France said it would host Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni on Thursday and an Israeli official said French President Nicolas Sarkozy might visit Jerusalem next Monday.

In Gaza, basic food supplies were running low and power cuts were affecting much of the territory. Hospitals were struggling to cope with the high number of casualties from the offensive.

Israel says its air campaign is aimed at ending rocket fire from Gaza, which intensified after Hamas declared the end of an Egyptian-brokered truce with the Jewish state on December 19.

Previous military campaigns failed to halt the salvoes, which rarely cause casualties but often sow panic in southern Israel where one-eighth of the country's population lives.

Hamas seized the Gaza Strip in 2007 from rival Fatah forces loyal to President Mahmoud Abbas. It has balked at demands by Western powers that it recognize Israel and renounce violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:01 PM

McGrath, you are, of course, writing about the mosques around which they hide and/or store munitions to use in their indiscriminate shelling of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:08 PM

Carol, Semites of different religions have lived in the area known as Palestine for thousands of years. Many languages have evolved and then been superceded in and around this area, including various dialects of Aramaic (spoken by Jesus), Canaanite languages, the Moabite language, Hebrew, and Phoenician languages. By the time Jesus was born, the Jews used either the Jewish dialectical version of Aramaic or Greek for most of their writings and in daily life.

The Arabic and Amharic languages emerged in the mid-fourth century C.E. Arabic completely displaced its predecessors after only a few hundred years in the area where Arabic speakers had become politically dominant. Thus all the South Arabian languages and Aramaic, in all its varied dialectical forms, became to all intents and purposes "dead" languages very soon after the emergence of Islam in the seventh century C.E. More info here rise of Arabic

This area has a diverse religious, cultural and linguistic history. It's political problems can not be solved by either party denying the other's historical rights to live there.

They have gone through a painful process in Northern Ireland, a lot of which comprised getting angry, devastated Protestants and Catholics to listen to each other. Change has happened slowly and carefully. I hope it can happen in Israel and Palestine too.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:55 PM

"...arguments stating that killing civilians used as shields is the same as deliberately targeting and killing civilians indiscriminately..."

When police stations and mosques in cities are targetted by aerial bombardment, the civilians inevitably killed are not being killed because they are "used as shields". They are killed because police stations and places of worship are normally sited in residential areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:14 PM

To John on the sunset coast..........
According to the Palestine Ministry of Prison Affairs in a July 2006 statement some 700,000 Palestinians have been arrested since 1967 by Israeli military forces in the illegally occupied territories.
Many have died in prison through torture or medical neglect. Many others have been tortured,beaten,crammed into small cells, hooded ,given inadequate food and kept in confinement without trial...young children are included in this general imprisonment of the Palestinian people who are being illegally occupied by an invading power.
For further information Mudcat readers should google Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons... a wealth of pretty horrible information awaits you. We all know the name of the Israeli soldier captured in Gaza but do we know the names of any Palestinian prisoners incarcerated in one of a number of Israeli jails?
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 05:35 PM

The problem, as I see it, is that Isreal insists on pre-conditions before negotiating... This has been a stumbling block all along...

The Saudi Proposal calls for a mutual agreement...

At some point in time this is what will happen if there is ever to be peace, for as lack of a better word, between Isreal and the Palestianians...

I think it is very childish to expect one side or the other to have to meet pre-conditions when it is apparent that this one point has been the stickler going back decades...

Both side are going to have to give a little...

Or not... Maybe because of complete stubborness on both side they will just fight for the next million, no make that gazillion, years...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 04:05 PM

I really had planned on staying out of this discussion…even PMed that I was. I know that there is no changing the opinion on the rightness or efficacy of the Israeli attacks in Jordan. But when I read unsupported statements such as nearly all Palestinian adult males in the West Bank have been imprisoned by Israelis, I need a source.

When pro-Palestinian arguments are made that Gaza has been under constant attack from Israel, I question the credibility of the writer, because I know that not to be true.

When I read moral equivalence arguments stating that killing civilians used as shields is the same as deliberately targeting and killing civilians indiscriminately, then I wonder at the writer's ability to reason coherently.

And when I read deliberate distortions of the history of the area, I wonder if there is more than philo-Palestinian humanitarian feelings at work here.

Lastly, to those of you who blame the imposition of post-Holocaust European Jewry for the problems in the area, perhaps there is a bit of Karma at work:

Read   "Icon of Evil: Hitler's Mufti and the Rise of Radical Islam"
               by David G. Dalin, John F. Rothmann

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, while in exile, and as the guest of Nazi Germany, is shown to be complicit in the 'Final Solution.' Perhaps Israel is a fact, in part, because of the Mufti's actions. Probably such heavy immigration wouldn't have later occurred without Husseini's input and encouragement. His younger cousin, Yassir Arafat, later the head of the PLO, would not live up to the Oslo Accords to which he was a signatory.

The book is heavily sourced, and copies or transcripts of supporting, original documents are provided.

JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 02:33 PM

The apologists for Hamas make strange reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 02:09 PM

The apologists for Israel make grisly reading . Israeli leaders and their supporters seem to think that the Palestinians can be slaughtered and massacred to the peace table where their land can be further dismembered and their lives further bound and shackled and humiliated in "bantustans" and enclosed behind apartheid walls.

Yet the history of the Palestinian people shows that they will resist the F16 bombers, the giant tanks and the helicopter gunships together with the Israeli assassination squads,prison camps and roadblocks etc.

Israel is an armed and illegal occupier of the West Bank,the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem.

Its paramilitary settlers on the West Bank are nothing more than armed thugs who have been terrorising the Palestinians ever since they began to build their hilltop fortified settlements in the aftermath of the 1967 invasion. Their work has been aided and abetted by the Israeli military itself with its numerous checkpoints,roadblocks,Apartheid Wall, rubber coated bullets and all the other paraphenalia of a barbaric occupation.

The majority of Palestinian men in the West Bank have at one time or another been inside the huge prisons operated by the Israeli state.

And Gaza one of the most densely populated places in the world has been occupied,surrounded,threatened and attacked for years by the Israeli military which is of course well armed and funded by the USA and other countries including the UK.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:48 PM

Israel mulls truce offer on Day 4 of Gaza assault
    By IBRAHIM BARZAK and AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writers Ibrahim Barzak And Amy Teibel, Associated Press Writers – 48 mins ago

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israel is considering suspending its Gaza offensive for 48 hours to give Hamas militants an opening to halt their rocket fire, but the threat of a ground offensive remains if the truce does not hold, Israeli officials said Tuesday.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak is to raise the proposal during a meeting Tuesday night with the prime minister, said two senior officials in Barak's office who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not allowed to make the information public.

Talk of a truce seemed to be the outcome of a strong diplomatic push, particularly from Europe and the United Nations. European Union foreign ministers were scheduled to gather in Paris on Tuesday evening for an urgent meeting on the crisis in Gaza, with France and Germany both seeking a cease-fire.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081230/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians


Since all here seem to agree that a political solution is required, what are opinions if Israel DOES stop, and Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israel ( as they have done on previous "ceasefires")?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:41 PM

"Since the blockade only prevented necessities from getting to the civilians in Gaza, but not weapons to Hamas, then the blockade can only be described as a deliberate attack on civilians, rather than a defensive measure,"

The blockade has been effective in reducing the flow of material to Gaza. Since it is the Gazans themselves that have decided what material to smuggle in ( using those tunnels from Egypt that Israel had no control over, and has now destroyed) the decision to bring in war material instead of that required for civilians ( food, medicine, etc) is entirely one by Gazans. If I choose to go out and buy a rocket to kill you with, it is hardly fair for me to then claim that you prevented me from buying food for my children with that money.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:10 PM

CarolC,

Please see my post here of
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:40 AM


THAT is the Hamas charter. Sorry if you have been misinformed as to their willingness to accpet a Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:26 PM

There are terrorists on both sides of that war. The Israeli government and armed forces are the much better armed terrorists who enjoy the luxury of a high tech army, navy, and air force to do their acts of terrorism, unlike their Muslim terrorist opponents who are reduced to using primitive weapons such as suicide bombers and inacurrate rockets.

Like all the wealthier terrorists throughout history...people who can afford to field modern armies...the Israelis feel morally superior to their impoverished foes. I can't agree with them on that account. They are not morally superior at all, they're just much better armed and capable of doing much more damage and killing more people. They use the means they have at hand: jet fighters, tanks, a navy, an army. Hamas uses the means it has at hand: guerilla fighters, inaccurate rockets, suicide bombers. Israel kills about a hundred Arabs for every person they lose, but the fight goes on because the only real solution to this fight is a political one, and it will not end until honest political solutions are both sought and accomplished by both sides.

An honest political solution involves the genuine desire for peaceful coexistence. I don't see any real will out there at the top levels to achieve that, because the only rule presently governing their decisions appears to be rule by brute force, fueled by the arrogance that arises out of imagining oneself to be a power that is undefeatable on the field of battle.

The English imagined themselves so once too, when they were occupying and pillaging half of France back in the 1400s. After decades of one-sided victories, they thought they could do as they pleased in France wherever and whenever they pleased, but eventually they got a surprise or two from the French, and they are no longer occupying half of France. This should be remembered by all who enjoy a temporary military supremacy over a conquered and colonized region.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: C. Ham
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:01 PM

I'm also going to point out one more time that Hamas has said that they are willing to recognize Israel's right to exist if Israel will recognize Palestine's right to exist.

Well there's the whopper of the year.

Israel has long been in negotiations with the Palestinian Authority. Successive Israeli and Palestinian leaders have long been meeting at the highest levels to achieve that. A two-state solution has long been the policy of all Israeli governments going back many years.

What Israel does not recognize is Hamas, a terrorist organization that is also not recognized by the U.S., Canada, Great Britain, France, the E.U., etc.

Most Arab governments -- Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc. also do not recognize Hamas.

Hamas' stated goals -- you can find their charter online -- is to destroy Israel and to impose strict Islamic law on every man, woman and child.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:41 AM

It should also be pointed out that Israel was already blockading Gaza before Hamas took power.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:39 AM

I'm also going to point out one more time that Hamas has said that they are willing to recognize Israel's right to exist if Israel will recognize Palestine's right to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:36 AM

Israel has been ethnically cleansing the Palestinian people from their homeland since 1948.
The Israeli military has spent that time burning villages, demolishing homes , erasing farmland and orchards and massacring the Palestinian people.
It has illegally occupied the West Bank and allowed a bunch of rabid right wing fundamentalist thugs to terrorise the Palestinians.
Gaza itself was little more than sand dunes until the Palestinians were expelled from their homes. Gaza was occupied in the 1967 war and has been,as one of the previous commentator shas pointed out,turned into one giant prison for its million plus inhabitants with Israel controlling its land,sea and air borders [except for its southern crossing point which is controlled by Egypt ].
Yesterday, a small cabin cruiser loaded with medical supplies was attacked , damaged and turned away by Israeli warships way out at sea because it had the effrontery to sail for Gaza with its much needed medical supplies.
In Gaza dozens of women and children have been killed in the past few dayss by Israeli bombs .....hospitals lack anasthetics and other basic necessities and over 1000 have been injured as well as 300 plus killed in the air attacks.
All this on top of the strangling of the city during the past few years.
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:31 AM

I have to rephrase this part...

"Since the blockade only prevented necessities from getting to the civilians in Gaza, but not weapons to Hamas, then the blockade can only be described as a deliberate attack on civilians, rather than a defensive measure, which is a war crime. It is a war crime to target civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:30 AM

Since the blockade only prevented necessities from getting to the civilians in Gaza, but not weapons, then the blockade can only be described as a deliberate attack on civilians, rather than a defensive measure, which is a war crime. It is a war crime to target civilians.

Had the Israeli government honored its part of the ceasefire agreement, whether or not weapons were brought into Gaza would have been irrelevant, since Hamas would not have ended the ceasefire and the weapons would not have been used. So bringing weapons into Gaza has nothing whatever to do with whether or not Israel honored its part of the agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:21 AM

It's not accurate to talk about the migration of Jews and Arabs into the area that is now Israel and Palestine. The indigenous Palestinians were Semites whose ancestry was mixed with that of people who were traveling through the area from other parts of the world, and over time they became what we now know of as Jews, Christians, and Muslims. They all became "Arabs" when the Arab language spread to the area that is now known as Israel and Palestine. It is inaccurate to separate the indigenous Jews from the indigenous Christians and Muslims into "Arabs" and "Jews". They all became Arabs when the Arab language spread to that area, and they all came from the same genetic background.

The Jews who were not "Arabs" were the ones who migrated to the Middle East from Spain during recent centuries, and those who migrated to the Middle East from Europe during the 19th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:41 AM

hmmm...


"Peace between Israelis and Palestinians cannot result from daily barrages of rocket and mortar fire from Hamas-controlled Gaza," U.S.
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), Speaker of the House of Representatives, said in a statement. "Hamas and its supporters must understand that Gaza cannot and will not be allowed to be a sanctuary for attacks on Israel. "

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:38 AM

"Yet Olmert, Livni and Barak are united in hopes of keeping Benjamin Netanyahu, the leader of the opposition Likud Party who has vowed to bring talks with the Palestinian to a halt, from coming to power; the first post-assault polls show their chances of doing that substantially improving."

Interesting little tidbit about Israel's internal political struggles. Netanyahu holds the same beliefs that have enabled Israel to survive for the last 60 years: fight back. However, but to block his election, his opponents have teamed-up and taken the same hardline policy that Netanyhayu has been advocating.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: C. Ham
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:19 AM

Is Gaza conflict a crisis or an opportunity for Obama?

NEWS ANALYSIS

By Ron Kampeas

WASHINGTON (JTA) -- Does the mini-war underway between Israel and Hamas in and around the Gaza Strip present President-elect Barack Obama's incoming administration with a crisis or an opportunity?

Israel's aerial bombardment, the most intensive in the Gaza Strip in the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, has killed at least 320 people, most of them militants belonging to the terrorist group Hamas, although tens of children were reported dead in surprise attacks on the crowded strip.

The assault, which started Saturday, came after days of intensified rocket attacks launched from Gaza on Israel's southern towns and farms.
The Palestinian rocket fire, launched even before a Hamas-Israel ceasefire formally lapsed Dec. 19, has killed at least four Israelis and is emptying the south of its residents. Ehud Barak, Israel's defense minister, warned of "all-out war," possibly including a land invasion

Buried beneath the fretting over whether the renewed conflict would kill talks between Israel and the relatively moderate leadership of the Palestinian Authority were hints that it could in fact bolster the negotiations, if only by marginalizing Hamas. That, in turn, could help Obama clear the ground for a breakthrough, a prospect Obama's team seemed to recognize by limiting its reactions to expressions of support for Israel.

"He's going to work closely with the Israelis," David Axelrod, Obama's senior adviser, told CBS' Face the Nation on Sunday when asked about the outbreak. "They're a great ally of ours, the most important ally in the region. And that is a fundamental principle from which he'll work."

Washington pundits and officials in European capitals are casting the flare up as a crisis that could scuttle Obama's stated intention of developing talks -- first launched a year ago by the Bush administration
-- into a final status agreement.

Jackson Diehl, the deputy editor of the Washington Post's editorial page, said the war was the final failure for Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister who is to leave office by March to face corruption charges. "His failure represents another missed opportunity for Middle East peace -- and probably means that the incoming Obama administration, like the incoming Bush administration of 2001, will inherit both a new round of Israeli-Palestinian bloodshed and a new Israeli government indisposed to compromise," Diehl wrote in Monday's Post.

Meanwhile, Israel is casting the war first of all as one of necessity:
The bombardment of Israel's south, in the days before Israel launched its aerial counter attacks, at times reached 70 rockets a day. The effect has been to devastate the region's economy and to create levels of anxiety that Israelis regard as intolerable; the retaliatory strikes earned the support of the vast majority of Israelis in weekend polling.

Sallai Meridor, the Israeli envoy to Washingtons, cautioned that the action was not undertaken with the peace process in mind. "The direct reason for these activities is to remove a threat over the head of 500,000 Israelis -- not a theoretical threat, a real one," Meridor told JTA. "Three were killed only today. No country would sacrifice its citizens to terror."

Meridor added, however, that an Israeli success could have salutary effects on the peace process. "Indirectly, the chances for peace are dependent on the weakening of the enemies of peace. If Hamas strengthens, the chances of peace weaken; if Hamas weakens, it contributes to the chances of peace."

In remarks Sunday to his Cabinet, Olmert said the aim was to "restore normal life and quiet to residents of the south who -- for many years -- have suffered from unceasing rocket and mortar fire and terrorism designed to disrupt their lives and prevent them from enjoying a normal, relaxed and quiet life, as the citizen of any country is entitled to."

Another factor might be political calculation. Little love is lost between Olmert and his government partners: Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, who has assumed control of his Kadima Party, and Barak, who heads the Labor Party. Yet Olmert, Livni and Barak are united in hopes of keeping Benjamin Netanyahu, the leader of the opposition Likud Party who has vowed to bring talks with the Palestinian to a halt, from coming to power; the first post-assault polls show their chances of doing that substantially improving.

The effect Israel's current leadership sought was not simply to remind the public that doves are capable of defending Israel, but that the onslaught would help reinforce the current round of talks. The aim, Director of the Shin Bet security service Yuval Diskin suggested at the weekly Cabinet meeting, is to isolate Hamas. "The mood among a not unsubstantial part of the Palestinian population understands that the operation is against Hamas, which has inflicted great suffering on the residents of Gaza," Diskin said in remarks relayed by Oved Yehezkel, the Cabinet secretary.

That approach was echoed by Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority president, in remarks Monday on P.A. television.

"I say in all honesty, we made contact with leaders of the Hamas movement in the Gaza Strip," Abbas said in a translation made available by Palestinian Media Watch. "We spoke with them in all honesty and directly, and after that we spoke with them indirectly, through more than one Arab and non-Arab side ... We spoke with them on the telephone and we said to them: We ask of you, don't stop the ceasefire, the ceasefire must continue and not stop, in order to avoid what has happened, and if only we had avoided it."

Ziad Asali, an Abbas ally who founded the American Task Force on Palestine, said it was notable that Abbas and other Arab leaders were muted in their calls on Israel to draw back.

"There is a certain withholding of outright support" for Hamas "that usually would accrue to any party in active conflict with Israel," he said.

Arab frustration with Hamas stemmed from its refusal until now to defer to Abbas as the lead negotiator in peace talks and its insistence on armed conflict as the only way to confront Israel, Asali said.

"There is no military solution to this conflict," he said. "At the end of the day there has to be a negotiating process, and the people who are clearly authorized to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians are the P.A. folks."

He warned, however, that there was a limited window to exploit Hamas'
marginalization, and joined a number of dovish pro-Israel groups -- including J Street, Americans for Peace Now, Brit Tzedek v'Shalom and the Israel Policy Forum -- in calling for an immediate cease-fire.

"We don't know how the parties on the ground will react," Asali said.
"We see ever increasing human suffering in Gaza that would add to the pressure to bring about some kind of ceasefire."

Should the bloodshed intensify, the sufferings of ordinary Palestinians, joined with public outrage on the "Arab street" with Israel's actions and the chaotic nature of the conflict, could turn an opportunity into a crisis -- and an Obama administration faced with a crisis on Jan. 21 might not be equipped to respond.

"The issue is how urgently they would prioritize this conflict," Asali said.

Hamas' responsibility for re-launching hostilities, coupled with a desire to corner the terrorist group into deferring to Abbas'
negotiations with Israel, was likely behind the near unanimous backing in Washington for Israel's actions.

Most significant was the Obama transition team's steadfast commitment to Israel's right to respond, albeit expressed with the requisite deference to George W. Bush as the sitting president.

"The president-elect recognizes the special relationship between the United States and Israel," Axelord, Obama's adviser, said on CBS. "It's an important bond, an important relationship. He's going to honor it.
And he wants to be a constructive force in helping to bring about the peace and security that both the Israelis and the Palestinians want and deserve. And obviously, this situation has become even more complicated in the last couple of days and weeks as Hamas began its shelling and Israel responded."

Pressed, Axelrod suggested Obama's strategy would be shaped by his own visit over the summer to Israel's frontlines.

"He said then that when the bombs are raining down on your citizens, there is an urge to respond and act and try and put an end to that,"
Axelrod said. "You know, that's what he said then, and I think that's what he believes."

The Bush administration and congressional leaders of both parties also issued statements squarely blaming Hamas, followed up with pleas to Israel to curb civilian casualties.

"Peace between Israelis and Palestinians cannot result from daily barrages of rocket and mortar fire from Hamas-controlled Gaza," U.S.
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), Speaker of the House of Representatives, said in a statement. "Hamas and its supporters must understand that Gaza cannot and will not be allowed to be a sanctuary for attacks on Israel. "

The White House sounded a similar note: "Hamas' continued rocket attacks into Israel must cease if the violence is to stop. Hamas must end its terrorist activities if it wishes to play a role in the future of the Palestinian people. The United States urges Israel to avoid civilian casualties as it targets Hamas in Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Stu
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:09 AM

"Any solution to these problems must look forward, not backward. What is the best, most equitable, resolution? Damned if I know."

Small steps. To stop fighting would be a good start.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: C. Ham
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:58 AM

Below is a blog, well worth reading, written from Israel yesterday, by Rabbi Andy Bachman, of Congregation Beth Elohim, a Reform synagogue in Brooklyn, NY.

Rabbi Bachman's blog


*****

Just the Nasty Business
December 29th, 2008

Every time conflict breaks out among Israelis and Palestinians, the whole world watches, everyone's an expert, opinions and righteous condemnation abounds from all directions, we start the damn thing all over again.

So on my last night here for this leg of the journey in life, I leave Jerusalem with a few impressions.

1. I am not forgetting that when Israel pulled out of Gaza a few years ago, Hamas made the insane decision to destroy and burn the greenhouse facilities that the Israelis left for them, cursed as they were by the Zionist entity. We have still today in the Israeli papers stories of the disengagement, the claims of unjust treatment of Israeli citizens by their own army and their own government, and, in the extreme, ludicrous statements that the architect of this disengagement, Ariel Sharon, is three years into his stroke precisely because the Jewish God punished him for making Jews give up the Jewish land. (So we have our outlandish theories, too.) But Hamas burned greenhouses, whose soul crime was in serving as a tool for the production of food, sustenance and life due to Israeli scientific ingenuity. To add to that: hundreds upon hundreds of rockets have been launched over the borders in varying temperatures of cease-fires–hot, warm and cold–these last few years.

So Israel pulls out, even leaves you with homes and facilities, secured and guaranteed by American dollars (remember James Wolfson's making sure that millions would go to aid Gaza after the pullout?) and it all went up in flames because Hamas took the position that despite the withdrawal, this algebra would be all or nothing. Bombs, bombs, bombs. No acceptance, no peace.

Summer two years ago; Gilad Shalit; the predictable calls for the death of Israel.

What did the paper say today? Nearly 90% of the country says 'enough is enough?' You don't get to those numbers by yourself.

2. We were safe traveling around but went through a few checkpoints. At least from what I could see around Jerusalem, everyone was being VERY cooperative. I saw lots of Palestinians get checked, cooperate, and saw the civil interactions between young Israeli soldiers–male and female–and Palestinians, go off without a hitch. It was just a slice of life–I fully admit–but one had the sense watching that beyond the dramas that are ready like tried and true one act shows (the burning tires, the hurling of stones, the demonstrations) there is a palpable seriousness to this campaign and if you follow Egypt and Jordan and many others, Hamas doesn't seem to have a whole lot of support.

When Ehud Barak stands in the Knesset and invokes the name of Barack Obama

From Haaretz today: Barak also cited a comment made by U.S. President-elect Barack Obama, who visited Sderot during his election campaign earlier this year.

"Obama said that if rockets were being fired at his home while his two daughters were sleeping, he would do everything he could to prevent it," Barack told the plenum.

it made for an interesting moment to say the least.

3. Israelis I spoke to throughout the day conveyed that same unified feeling mentioned above. No other country would tolerate the rocket attacks and just in the last few hours, two Israelis have been killed by attacks in the south. Those attacks, unlike the Israeli aerial assault since Sunday, have been going on for three years. Far be it from the world to jump to any meaningful condemnation of those attacks, or have any real solution for convincing Hamas to stop. Instead, the lack of progress has emboldened Hamas, allied them further with Hezbollah, al Qaeda, and Iran, and only made things worse.

I did not hear from the Israelis I spoke to today, "Kill the Arabs," or "get rid of them all." Rather, I hear, "What are you going to do?" with the typical shrug of the shoulders. As if to say, "We are usually alone in this and we have to defend ourselves."

I will leave for others to debate for now questions of history, rightful and unrightful claims, legitimacy and illegitimacy. Instead, I leave Israel this morning as I usually do: sad to have to say goodbye, despite the mess. Worried deeply for its safety and future and pained deeply that Palestinians and Israelis have yet to make peace.

But no great pronouncements. Just the nasty business of what one must do, and what one must sometimes sacrifice, in order to live.

===

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:41 AM

well said, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:40 AM

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm


Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:34 AM

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp


"In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had THEIR homeland... the remaining 25% of the original Palestinian territory (west of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:17 AM

Art,

It also ignores the 820,000 Jews that were driven from Arab nations. ( vice the 640,000 Arab Palestinians who fled from Israel. No mention of any compensation is there for them.

And why are the 1967 borders the ones to be used? How about the 1927 "Jewish Homeland" Mandate lines?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:59 AM

There are two core problems with the Saudi peace proposal. First, it calls for full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967. This includes not only the Golan Heights, from which the Syrian army once fired artillery into the Israeli towns on the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee/Lake Kinneret, but also the Old City of Jerusalem. There is no provision for the security of Jewish residents in Jerusalem, some of whom have moved in since 1967 and some of whom (or their families) have been there for hundreds of years. There is also no provision for access to the Western Wall (the Wailing Wall) of Solomon's Temple, which was (by most reports) used as an outdoor latrine during the Jordanian occupation from 1948 to 1967.

Pledges of Jewish access were not lived up to during this period, so there is understandable hesitation to accept a Palestinian promise to do so. Neither side is particularly interested in the idea of Jerusalem - either just the portion within the walls or some larger, to be determined, area - being somehow made into a "free" city, governed by the UN.

The second major problem is that it requires full compliance with UN Resolution 194, passed in December, 1948. Section 11 of this resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.

This was probably possible in 1948. However, we are now 60 years down the road, and the number of refugees and their descendants has grown to 4 or 5 million. In an ideal world, should the property taken be restored to its 1948 condition and returned? Or should the Palestinians be given this land, with 60 years of improvements? Perhaps so, but it will never happen, any more than the tragic history of US seizure of Indian lands will ever be cured by everyone of European descent returning to "where they came from" or a murder be undone by returning the killer to his mother's womb.

Any solution to these problems must look forward, not backward. What is the best, most equitable, resolution? Damned if I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:41 AM

Egypt refuses full opening of Gaza crossing

CAIRO, Egypt – The Egyptian president says his country will not fully open its crossing into the Gaza Strip unless Mahmoud Abbas' Palestinian Authority is in control of the border post.

The speech Tuesday from Hosni Mubarak came despite criticism of Egypt in the Arab world over its refusal over the past year to open the Rafah crossing, which has helped complete an Israeli blockade of the territory. Since Israel's offensive in Gaza began Saturday, Egypt has allowed some wounded to cross from Gaza for treatment and some humanitarian supplies to enter the territory.

But Egypt resists dealing with the Islamic militant Hamas because it opposes the militant group's 2007 takeover of the Gaza Strip and insists Abbas is the legitimate Palestinian leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:22 AM

Bobert,

Step 1. Hamas acknowledges Israel's right to exist and stops trying to kill Israelis.



Still waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: number 6
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:04 AM

Carolc said .... "It started when European Jews started depriving Palestinians of their homes and their livelihoods."

Yeah ... those goddamned Europeans .... doesn't really matter if they're Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Puritan or some Celtic Pagan .. they just seem to stir up trouble and kick the livin crap outta the locals wherever they go.

ok ... Bobert's correct "Same old arguments, no one talkin' about solutions...'

We should stop looking back into the past completely and start thinking about a solution ... unfortunately people from all sides keep bringing up the goddamned past .... therin lies the problem IMHO.

Anyway .... this thread will go on and on and on ..... just like that problem over in the "Holy Land"

Hmmmmmm ... part of the problem right there maybe .... "holy Land"

I'm outta here

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:44 AM

Ho hum...

Same old arguments, no one talkin' about solutions...

I mean, other than me, has anyone even heard of the Saudi Proposal???

(No, Bobert, seems everyone has his or her eyes afixes squarely in the rear view mirror...)

Well, okay... Yes, I did alude to the the length of the conflict but unless we start talkin' about how to end it then, yeah, were are repeating behavior expecting different results...

...insane...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:25 AM

http://masada2000.org/historical.html


Looking at the RECENT history, from 1923 onward, the Palestinian Moslims have had a state (Transjordan), which just happened to be in control of the West Bank and Gaza from 1948 until 1967- AND made no effort to settle the refugees from the "Jewish State"- While Israel settled those Arab Jews that had been forced out of Moslim nations.

Like Pakistan and India, the mass transfer of populations occurred. Unlike that case, Israel still has a large Moslim population.

Pray tell where the large Jewish population of Jordan is?

Oh, yeah- it is not permitted for Jews to live in Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:14 AM

" as well as tightening a blockade which resulted in civilians dying. "

Just as with Saddam and the Oil for Food program ( which he used to build many new palaces) it seems like the Gazans ( as opposed to Palestinians) had no problem in bringing in rockets and morters... So any civilians dieing from the "blockade" are their own fault.


How many countries are supplying power to entities that have declared they wanted the destruction of that country??? Other than Israel, who is expected to put up with what no other country would.




Still waiting for the return of the Israeli soldiers kidnapped by Hezboallah, part of the UN mandated ceasefire terms for Lebenon....

Or the disarming of Hezboallah....



Or the blockade by ALL NATIONS required by the UN of arms to Hezboallah....



Oh, that's right... the UN only applies demands upon Israel that they expect to be followed... Nobody else has to bother.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:50 AM

"Even during the cease-fire that lasted 6 months, Israel received rocket fire and didn't respond." (Peace)

Israel continued to carry out attacks which killed people in Gaza throughout the "ceasefire", as well as tightening a blockade which resulted in civilians dying.

Calling an end to the ceasefire was clearly a mistake on the part of Hamas, but it seems to have been something that the Israeli government was intending to bring about. The present onslaught has been neatly timed to take place during the dying days of the Bush regime, and in the run up to Israeli elections in February.

Presenting this as a desperate attempt to stop Israeli civilians being killed is merely spin. It seems certain that many more Israeli civilians are going to end up dead as a consequences of what is now happening - that is how these things always work.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 04:58 AM

That post was not meant to reduce this situation to statistics, or to deny the dispossession of Palestinian refugees. But to highlight the historical ties of a number of different peoples to the area, including Jewish people, and to show the complexity of the cultural and religious heritage of the area over centuries.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 04:52 AM

As Art has noted, there has been a significant Jewish population in Palestine since the Crusades.

It's hard to say whether there were more Jews or more Arabs in Palestine at the beginning of the last century - statistics are inconclusive. While both Arab and Jewish sources quote British census statistics of 1931 to support their own claims of demographic dominance, there are many different sources of information, some of which conflict with each other.

this site has a lot of interesting information about statistical records of population and immigration by Jews and Arabs into the area, and which groups (eg Bedouins) may have been excluded:
The population of Palestine prior to 1948

It quotes a number of sources including the Ottoman census of 1893, various British census figures, the Encyclopedia of the Palestinians, and information collected since the mid 1800s by various officials. It also has links to a number of other sites which analyse the question of demographic dominance as well.

It's worth a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 04:12 AM

From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:27 AM

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Clinically speaking, it is also a symptom of being psychotic.(true story).

So, is that why Hamas keeps launching rockets??

Frankly, you can't keep kicking sand into Israel's eyes, and not expect to get your ass whipped!

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:15 AM

Ok, now I know why Hamas ended the ceasefire. The have said that the agreement that accompanied the ceasefire was that Israel would ease the blockade of Gaza, and Israel has not done so. I disagree with Hamas' tactics in that they have been firing rockets in areas where civilians could be hit (I also disagree with Israel's bombing of areas where civilians could be hit), but I totally agree with Hamas' reason for ending the ceasefire.

Hamas has said that they will stop firing rockets into Israel when Israel ends the blockade of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:49 AM

Funny pointing fingers about clever responses after calling someone else's post bull. I'd say that's about the ultimate lame response.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:48 AM

No, I'm not necessarily saying I agree with Hamas' tactics. I don't feel that I have enough information at this time to say whether or not I agree with them. I know from long experience that many times when the mainstream media and the Israeli government says that it was the other side that ended the ceasefire, that it was actually Israel that ended it, but Israel's aggression doesn't get counted because they always have some kind of "excuse". In the past, when Hamas has conducted a unilateral ceasefire, Israel had continued to conduct targeted assassinations and kidnappings of Palestinians.

I don't have time right now to do the deep research that would be necessary to know the truth of this situation, so I am refraining from forming an opinion about what Hamas has been doing. For this reason, I have also refrained from forming an opinion about Israel's response. However, I do note the hypocrisy of the people who believe that Israel has a right to starve out the Palestinians but the Palestinians don't have a right to defend themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:43 AM

Gee. Clever response. Have a nice evening, and pleasant dreams while you think of dead Israelis. I'm going home to pray for both of 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:41 AM

That's what they say. So why break the ceasefire? Why attack Israel before, during AND after the ceasefire? You saying it's OK for Hamas to do what it feels it must and Israel doesn't have the right of reply? The Israelis targetted military sites--specifically about 30 Hamas security sites. Hamas just targets anywhere in Israel, regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:39 AM

No, first and foremost of the crew of people who are not capable of recognizing the truth is the dubious honor belonging to the person who said my post was bull.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:37 AM

Hamas has already indicated that they are willing to recognize Israel's right to exist if Israel will recognize Palestine's right to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:37 AM

You being first and foremost of the crew.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:36 AM

Actually, it happens to be the truth. But some people are incapable of recognizing the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:34 AM

Heard that from you before, Carol. It's still bull.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: MarkS
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:24 AM

A good starting point for a settlement might be if Hamas acknowledged that Israel has a right to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:03 AM

It's funny that some people here only complain when Hamas responds with rockets to Israel's total subjugation of the people of Gaza - total control of Gaza's borders, of Gazan's ability to come and go, total control of Gaza's coastline, creating the ultimate outdoor prison in Gaza and depriving Gazans of the basic necessities of life. It's almost like it's ok for Israel to completely destroy a people, but it's not ok for those people to resist being destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:58 PM

The current conflict started before Arabs attacked any Jewish settlements. It started when European Jews started depriving Palestinians of their homes and their livelihoods.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:39 PM

I agree Peace.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:29 PM

The Israelis have been being fired upon since 2002. Even during the cease-fire that lasted 6 months, Israel received rocket fire and didn't respond. I guess they have had enough. They dropped about 3 tons of ordnance on each of 30 military targets. The vast majority of people killed were from Hamas security forces.

It's funny that the world media and people posting here don't complain about the mid-East until Israel responds to rocket fire. Strange that, no? Almost like it's OK for Hamas to target Israel, but then Israel are big bullies when they respond. Y'all ever look at yourselves in that light?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:23 PM

I would rather see demonstrations world wide where people would protest and call for an end to the madness and a calling for tolerance, understanding and humanity.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:16 PM

There will be a national demonstration in central London this coming saturday [3rd January] called to protest at the attack on the Palestinian people of Gaza and the blockade and starvation of its people.The protest has been called by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign. Protest starts at 2pm.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:00 PM

in regards to Art's statement .. "The current period of aggression started well over 70 years ago, with Arab attacks on Jewish settlements in British-occupied Palestine."

... I believe Art you were referring to the 1929 riots. Regardless here is a link in case anyone is interested .... 1929 riots

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Beer
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:55 PM

Thank you Bobert and thank you Art for that. The picture is definitely not a clear one. As we use to say, "Some day, pray God, there will be peace in Ireland". Well as bleak as it may seem, maybe it will happen. However, I for see those tanks and ground troupes moving in.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:15 PM

The current period of aggression started well over 70 years ago, with Arab attacks on Jewish settlements in British-occupied Palestine. Some of these settlers were members of the various Zionist movements who had purchased land there, and others had "always been there". The myth that all of the Israelis...or their ancestors 3 generations ago...were transplanted European deathcamp survivors is just that. Another myth that effects perceptions of this conflict is that all of the Jews ever left - for example, there was a significant Jewish population in the Holy Land during the Crusades, and the European crusaders were perfectly content to slaughter them in addition to the Arab Moslems and Christians. The history of Israel, Palestine and the conflict there is far from a simple one.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:39 PM

No, the aggression started 60 years ago, adrien, and it won't end until the power who brought about it's start become very engagged in stopping it... This isn't as much about things that we are seeing on out televisions as history... For the last 6 months a cease fire has been in place... Yeah, during this cease fire Hamas has been plotting but so have the Isrealis... What we are seein' of the Isreali military is the culmination of a year's worth of planning...

So to look at this newest chapter as anything but a continuation of a 60 year long conflict is to do dis-service to history and the future...

We need to change the pardigm here and looking at very recent history won't get us there...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Beer
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:21 PM

So who started this anyway? Who fired the first shot? I guess it really doesn't matter anymore. If someone could just say to Hamas stop firing your rockets. If they did. Would Israel halt their aggression? I believe they would. But this is all to simple so I have lost my understanding as to why it should or should not stop. There was talk at one time about a buffer zone being controlled by the U.N. forces. Is this out the window? I guess Hamas would just keep firing rockets over them.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:00 PM

Amen, lox...

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:54 PM

And of course the rseult will be ... er ... pain - mare hatred - blind fury - blood running red - families destroyed forever - children losing their fathers - wives losing their husbands - mothers losing their children ...

... young children - mutilated, destroyed ...

... if anything epitomizes the beauty of humanity it is the life of a child ...

... the thought of them afraid, cowering and ccold in disintegrating homes, and dying in agony after being struck by bullets or shrapnel ...

Politics is abstract. The reality of the situation is described above.

All parties have a responsibility to guarantee the first and most fundamental human right - the right to life.

Anyone who undertakes to use lethal force to achieve their goals is a murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:48 PM

"I have heard no one from the US address the issue of "regime change"!"

regime change for whom?
The US has had a fairly consistent policy of basic 'support' for Israel on most things, but has tried to encourage more 'moderate' responses to provocation.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:46 PM

The problem, Ake, ol buddy, is that the criminalism has gone on for pushing 60 years now...

I don't understand why after WW II that the world felt the the Plaestianians shopuld py for the acts of Adolph Hitler and the Nazis but that, in essence, is what the world decided and now we have 3rd generation Palestianians living under occupation/colonialism...

But, Ake, you have to admit that one day a solution will be found and that solution lies within a plan that Saudi Arabia put forth prior to then illegal invasion on Iraq by the US and the UK...

All wars end and this one will, too... The problem is that well before they end there are alot of folks who see the way that things will be worked out...

The Saudi Proposal is the only framework that provided all parties something of what they wanted...

Isreal gets saecurity and normalized raletion with her neighbors... The Arab states get stability in the region and the peace that comes that Isreal will not attrack them... The Palestians get their own state...

Yeah, of course, the major component is that a new Paletianian state is going to need a lot of financial help for maybe as long as a decade... But given the history here on the last 60 years, that is not too much to ask...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heric
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:34 PM

>Why the silence while the rest of the world condemns Israel and America?<

I believe Abbas described the Hamas rockets as "irresponsible."

>The Israelis have just killed about 300 people over an attack by Hamas which killed, what was it? 2 people?<

I don't follow the logic of "proportionate" response.

If you are going to use the machinery of government to kill people, the goals should be defined. That's elementary. The minimum goal is clearly defined: To stop Hamas-inspired violence against Israeli citizens in the near term. If that is the goal (or even if much larger and more nefarious motives are to be believed), then why would you revert to killing just two people or two hundred people if hostiles killed two of yours? Such numbers do not logically relate to any rational goal, legitimate or nefarious. That would be savage retribution and nothing more, with no "goal" of any kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:34 PM

"You mean the powerful slaughter the weak....then there is peace?"

Excise the cancer so that the organism can survive and flourish......then there is peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:27 PM

I have heard no one from the US address the issue of "regime change"!

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:13 PM

"...does the US not have a news media?"

It's been on CNN all day long...including protests and opinions. Do you expect only ONE opinion on such a divisive topic?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:56 PM

The borders are sealed, its like shooting fish in a barrel.

Latest score 400 dead 1400 injured

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:53 PM

Sorry Bob....cross posted to bobad.
Its a bit late to talk of peace proposals....This is serious and criminal...does the US not have a news media?

Why the silence while the rest of the world condemns Israel and America?

This amounts to a coup against a democratically elected government ....that the West doesn't like!
Even the UK govt has called for an Israeli cease fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:52 PM

Bertolt Brecht's ironic comment on East German politics to the Israel/Gaza situation, "If the Hamas government still has the confidence of the people, it is necessary to elect a new people."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:44 PM

You mean the powerful slaughter the weak....then there is peace?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:44 PM

Wow... Here we are some 10 hours and 50 posts later and we're still pointing fingers???

Son't reckon anyone took the time to Googlr "Saudi Proposal"...

(Well, Boberdz... The "Saudi Proposal" was a framework for peace... War is much more interesting...)

Not if it your house that just got bombed...

Nevemind... Now back to ***the action***...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:38 PM

"Israel supported by America have vowed to sweep Hamas from Gaza"

A necessary step to a permanent peace agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:03 PM

Israel supported by America have vowed to sweep Hamas from Gaza(regime change)

Where is Mr Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:02 PM

You only got one thing wrong Hawk Israel killed over 300 Hamas accidentally killed two of their own children.

Something must be done about the actions being taken by Israel they are the terrorists right back to 1946 when they stole Palestinian land up to 100 times more than they had been granted by the British.
I have written before of my conversations with a British army officer who was involved in the hand over of Palestinian land.
To day he hasn't a good word to say about Israel and how it has terrorised the Palestine with the full support of America.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 02:21 PM

War does indeed tend to be "the complete cessation of what we think of as normal morality, and it is the sanction of mass murder" - but that should never be accepted as right, and there is value in the concept of war crime, underpinned by theoretically binding international law.

Nor is it solely a matter of "victor's justice" - some Croatians as well as Serbs, and Bosnians of all varieties, have found themselves facing trial for their part in the butchery of a few years back.

At least it is now possible to force even high-up participants in activities that fall into that category to be careful where they go travel outside their own safe-haven in their own countries, whether that is Israel, the USA, the UK, or Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:56 PM

Oh, the Hamas police may indeed be legitimate targets, once one decides to start shooting. Likewise, all Israeli governmental personnel at all levels right down to traffic cop would be legitimate targets for someone who decided to attack Israel...from that someone's point of view only, I mean.

USAAF pilots in WWII were given clear instructions in 1943-45 to strafe and attack ANY civilian target that would constitute part of the German economy/infrastructure. That amounted to every civilian, every farm animal, every vehicle, everything period. An American flying ace, upon being given those instructions, remarked to one of the other pilots, "I hope to God we win this war, because we're in a whole load of trouble if we don't." And they would have been. They were committing war crimes.

War is the complete cessation of what we think of as normal morality, and it is the sanction of mass murder. Whoever does it, that's what it is. To pretend otherwise is the business of propaganda ministers and politicians generally, but the ordinary people in the bombsights are not fooled.

If the Muslim fighters had anything like the firepower that the Israeli armed forces do, then of course they would use it similarly on Israel, and you'd have many thousands of dead Israelis, not just a handful.

What I am not impressed by is the continual attempt by proponents of one side or the other to convince the world that they are morally better than the people they are fighting. They're not.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:51 PM

So would that go for Israeli police, and object to attacks on them being called "terrorism"?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:37 PM

As members of a para-military terrorist organization they are legitimate targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: C. Ham
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:33 PM

You can't use the term "civilian" to describe Hamas "police." Hamas police are not there to enforce the law as in a Western democracy. They are there to terrorize Palestinians who do not subscribe to Hamas' Islamic fundamentalism and to fire rockets into Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:28 PM

In some countries the police are actually a paramilitary force ... in conflict in many ways with their own community.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:09 PM

Police are civilians, in the sense that they are not members of the military forces. They are not civilians in the sense of ordinary people who are not in uniform or are not serving in either the military or the civil forces.

So whether you are insulted or not by the term "civilian" being used for the police depends entirely on what context you take it in.

People who are determined to be insulted will always assume the context that suits their desire, won't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:56 PM

Most police officers that I know would be insulted if they were called "civilians", but I'd be interested in knowing the source of your statistics, McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:46 PM

"Security forces" include people who aren't police, some of whom are not civilians. But the evidence seems to be that most of those dead security forces members are in fact civilian police.

True enough the government in Gaza was elected by popular vote. So was the government in Israel. In neither case does that mean that targetting civilians, Palestinian or Israeli is anything other than terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: C. Ham
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:36 PM

Abbas: Hamas could have prevented attack
December 28, 2008

(JTA) -- Hamas could have prevented Israel's attack on the Gaza Strip, Mahmoud Abbas said Sunday.

The Palestinian Authority president also called on Hamas to renew its cease-fire with Israel.

"We spoke to them and told them, 'Please, we ask you not to end the cease-fire. Let it continue,'" Abbas said during a news conference with Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit. "We want to protect the Gaza Strip. We don't want it to be destroyed."

Abbas also called the continuing rocket attacks on Israel "acts of foolishness."

Israel's assault on Hamas targets began Saturday afternoon. More than 280 Palestinians have been killed in the operation so far.

Palestinian Authority officials in Ramallah said Saturday that Abbas' Fatah Party, which rules the West Bank, was prepared to assume control of Gaza if Israel topples the Hamas regime there.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:25 PM

This from the AP:
Most of those killed since Saturday were members of Hamas security forces, though the precise numbers remain unclear. A Hamas police spokesman, Ehab Ghussen, said 180 members of the Hamas security forces were among the dead, and the U.N. agency in charge of Palestinian refugees said at least 51 of the dead were civilians.

Israel has said that it is targeting Hamas and its facilities, and it should be said that "security forces" and "police" aren't the same thing. It is ironic that one of the two Israeli civilians killed by rockets fired into Israel was an Arab.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:23 PM

"...the rate of TOTAL casualties in tiny, compared to the ACCEPTED number of Georgians killed by Russians in the near past. THAT was ok to many of those here who protest the Israeli action, but have been silent about the Hamas attacks on civilians."


same logic....comparing YOUR Ox to Oxen being gored, or which you speculate 'might' have been gored at other times & places and under other circumstances.

Anyway...at THIS moment there are large protests at the Israeli embassies in Athens & London, and the UN Secretary-General is getting involved.

And...the White House (Bush?) has demanded (CNN's words) that Hamas stop firing rockets into Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:53 AM

I agree that Israel's attack on Gaza is related to Obama being about to take office. But I also think that it has as much to do with the Kadima party wanting to get re-elected in the upcoming Israeli elections as it does with Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:26 AM

"***Hamas*** is not the entirety of the population of Gaza."

No, it is the ELECTED GOVERNMENT of Gaza, elected by that population.




"And YOU want to let Israel bomb everything in the area in hopes they 'might' get a few Hamas militants? (those 'surgical' strikes are misnamed...surgeons do not use an axe when a scalpel is needed.) "


You have not been looking at the attacks, have you? Supply tunnels, specific buildings, etc. IF Israel was bombing everything in the area, there woyuld be tens of thousands dead. These ARE surgical strikes, unlike the area bombardments by Hamas antipersonnel (filled with ball bearings to inflict maximum harm on unprotected targets) rockets on the civilian population of Israel that everyone was silent about.

And the rate of TOTAL casualties in tiny, compared to the ACCEPTED number of Georgians killed by Russians in the near past. THAT was ok to many of those here who protest the Israeli action, but have been silent about the Hamas attacks on civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:16 AM

***Hamas*** is not the entirety of the population of Gaza.

And YOU want to let Israel bomb everything in the area in hopes they 'might' get a few Hamas militants? (those 'surgical' strikes are misnamed...surgeons do not use an axe when a scalpel is needed.)

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:04 AM

Still waiting on the UN to enforce the Lebenon ceasefire terms on Hezboallh... Israel compled quite a while ago- WHERE ARE THE KIDNAPPED ISRAELIS????

And you want Israel to let Hamas continue to attack the civilian population?????

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:58 AM

"yet Hamas chose not to talk. Let them suffer for it"

Well, it takes mighty big balls to sit down with a sworn enemy and thrash out at settlement by negotiation, and if no-one has the balls then they will continue in their cycle of violence until someone with a degree of integrity comes to take hold.

This is all due to religion. The 'Holy Land' has been abandoned by whatever God these people profess to worship and everyone is now neck-deep in in the gore of innocents. But then some like it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:57 AM

In WWII the Germans ran into much resistance in occupied lands, as is well known, and the resistance fighters did their level best to kill Germans and destroy certain infrastructure that was useful to the Germans. They launched what the Germans saw as "terror" attacks. The Germans often retaliated by killing 100 of the local people for every dead German. They had the firepower and the means to easily do that. They reasoned that this would dissuade the resistance fighters and the general populace from further attacks upon Germans. That turned out to be dead wrong. It simply provoked further violent attacks upon Germans. Apparently the bitterness and anger caused by the German reprisals made the resistance quite willing to face those disproportionate losses of 100 to 1 in order to continue hurting the Germans.

The Israelis have just killed about 300 people over an attack by Hamas which killed, what was it? 2 people?

That's a similar method to the German method of massive overkill, and I predict it will yield a similar result. Massive retaliation by Israel makes Israelis feel good, but it does nothing to end the conflict, it only guarantees further primitive pinprick terror attacks by their poorly armed Muslim opponents.

As for the Muslim fighters, their guerilla tactics do nothing to end the conflict either...they only guarantee further high tech massive overkill terror attacks by Israel, and much more suffering and waste on both sides.

So they are both engaging in stupid, pointless, tit for tat violence which will solve nothing. I see no reason why either of them should be proud and beat his chest over his latest act of violence. I see no reason why anyone here should support either one of them for doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:53 AM

"And it was OK when it was just Jews being targeted with antio-personneal rockets... Nobody had a word of protest then.

same old, tired logic...and not even accurate this time. You MUST get past that eternal " no one complains when YOUR side does XXX"

No one (well, not me anyway) is defending Hamas and their stupid provocations, but Israel's responses are BIGGER and make more headlines...and kill more people - including innocent civilians. Of course they get more press than poorly aimed rockets that miss more often than not!

Logic suffers when you have ONE premise and interpret everything that happens according to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:41 AM

And it would have been a good time before Hamas declared the ceasefire over, and increased its missle attacks. And it was a good time during the three days that Israel tried to negotiate, asking that the missiles be stopped- yet Hamas chose not to talk. Let them suffer for it: Maybe they will be willing to stop targetting Israeli citizens after they lose the means to control the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:36 AM

"Should I be living next to you and throwing bombs over the fence, trying to hit your family, and the police refused to stop me, what the hell would YOU do?????"

At some point everyone is going to have to sit down and talk about this. Now might be a good time.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,beardedbrucew
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:12 AM

And it was OK when it was just Jews being targeted with antio-personneal rockets... Nobody had a word of protest then.

Hamas declared the ceasefire over, NOT Israel. They are getting what they deserve. Israel waited three days, and the rockets continued at the increased rate.

Should I be living next to you and throwing bombs over the fence, trying to hit your family, and the police refused to stop me, what the hell would YOU do?????







.........
Most of those killed since Saturday were members of Hamas security forces, though the precise numbers remain unclear. A Hamas police spokesman, Ehab Ghussen, said 180 members of the Hamas security forces were among the dead, and the U.N. agency in charge of Palestinian refugees said at least 51 of the dead were civilians. A rise in civilian casualties could intensify international pressure on Israel to abort the offensive.

Israel's intense bombings — more than 300 airstrikes since midday Saturday — reduced dozens of buildings to rubble. The military said naval vessels also bombarded targets from the sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:08 AM

fascinating... an article in TimesOnline seems to have read my mind. (or I am just cleverer than I thought).

THEY agree that Hamas has precipitated all this with help from Syria & Iran and hoping to get more help from the region....and that Israel wants to strike heavily BEFORE Obama takes office.

Ah well, I don't think I am all that clever....seems pretty obvious, though just as stupid on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:02 AM

"The numbers I see are- over 300 killed, 51 of which are civilians."

Oh, that's alright then.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:43 AM

"Looks like they are taking extraordinary means to AVOID killing people. "

"extraordinary means" would be be to leave the planes on the ground.



You KNOW there are elements in Hamas who want to provoke Israel...for whatever mis-guided reason, else they would NOT fire those crude, random rockets, knowing they are out-gunned are that people WILL suffer.

My 'suspicions' are that they hope to get aid and all-out war from the entire Arabic Middle-East....but that's only a guess. I also am 'guessing' that they want to accomplish this before Bush leaves office.

My OPINION is that they are going to suffer for nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:34 AM

"Most of those targetted and killed by this attack have been civilians"

"Source please."

Every report indicates that most of those killed have been police. In other words, as would be the case in New York or London or Tel Aviv, civilians, in the same way that firefighters are. Targetting them is an act of terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:11 AM

Out of OVER 300 Israeli strikes. Looks like they are taking extraordinary means to AVOID killing people.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:10 AM

"Most"??????

The numbers I see are- over 300 killed, 51 of which are civilians.


"Meanwhile, Gazans were sent messages on their cellphones by the Israeli military warning them to stay away from "terrorists" and refrain from carrying weapons. Many Palestinians stayed off the streets of Gaza City save for funeral processions.'

If Hamas chooses to put military targets in civilian homes, schools, and mosques( in violation of the Geneva Conventions) HAMAS is responsible.

And what did Hamas do to warn the Israeli civilians they targeted with their rockets over the last 8 years?


........

Israel's government, which is currently in a reelection campaign, wants to bring to an end the eight years of Hamas rockets landing in southern Israel.

"There's the question of Iran," says Meir Javedanfar, the coauthor of a book on Iran's nuclear program. "If Israel can't defend itself against a small group like Hamas, then it will look weak to the region and embolden the right wingers in Iran to increase support for Hamas."

In the southern Israel town of Sderot, shell shocked from eight years of attacks, local Israelis say they feel a sense of relief and defiantly refused Sunday to take cover in shelters at the sound of rocket alerts. "Today is a day of celebration in Sderot," says Sasson Sara, a local shop owner. "Today I feel that we finally started to deal with terror."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:57 AM

"Most of those targetted and killed by this attack have been civilians"

Source please.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:51 AM

"the Israelis are targeting Hamas military and goverment targets."

Most of those targetted and killed by this attack have been civilians (including police). Targetting civilians is a war crime, and is an act of terrorism, whether the people doing it are Hamas, Al Qaeda, or the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:37 AM

As I said after the UN failed to enforce the ceasefire terms on anyone but Israel re Lebenon 2007, the international community has thrown away any chance to solve this problem: Israel would be foolish to trust ANY promises that the UN would do anything.


Thus, the actions ( lack of, actually) of the UN and others after September of 2007 have led directly to there being nothing that they can do.

As for fault,

Who unilaterally terminated the cease fire?

Who (continued to) target the civilian population with area mass bombardment weapons, illegal under tha Geneva conventions?

Who now protests the targeting of their military and givernmental superstructure, the legitimate targets in a war?




"and if the people who were responsible were targeting civilians in Israel, then I condemn their actions. If, however, they were targeting Israeli military, then it was a very unfortunate accident in a legitimate campaign for Gazans' freedom and liberty, and I don't condemn it, although it saddens me to learn about it. "

"If they were randomly shooting them into Israel, we can deduce their intent to hit civilians. If they were aiming them specifically at Israeli military targets, then we can deduce their intent to hit military targets."

CarolC


I agree with you on this. And it is obvious that the Hamas government is randomly shooting at Israeli civilians, and the Israelis are targeting Hamas military and goverment targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:32 AM

I see this as an over-reaction by Isreal in aadvance of the incoming Obama administration which will most certainly be more engaged than at any time in the last 8 years...

And, no, I do not condone rockets fired at anyone but I believe that had the US stayed engaged, rather than send the Bush message to Isreal that anything goes that we would be alot further down the road...

Ya'll Google up "Saudi Ppoposal"... That frameowrk would have worked and can still work... Bush saiod it was "interesting" but failed to get on board in endorseing this plan which would have put the Arab nations on the hot seat to insure Isreal's security...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:22 AM

A good army makes plans for future contingencies, and then lets the politicians make the decisions. I see nothing in the Haaretz article other than prior planning for a reengagement, and I don't know of a single thing, unfortunately, in the 70-plus year history of this conflict that would suggest that there wouldn't be one. There is also nothing in the 60-year history of the Israeli military that would indicate that any response to provocation, inevitable or not, wouldn't be massive and, at least in the eyes of some people, excessive.

BTW, CarolC, the rockets used by the Palestinians are technically known as Free Rockets Over Ground (FROGs). They are only slightly more sophisticated than roman candles, and are generally fired propped on a wooden or metal tripod - visualize the thing you hang a pot over a campfire on. They are aimed by setting direction and elevation (angle of fire, which determines the distance) and are highly inaccurate even if aimed with care. They are only useful against area targets - something a kilometer on a side, for example, or as a terror weapon, where the exact point of detonation is not particularly important.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:27 AM

You see? There are elements of truth from BOTH sides of this stupidity! Freda's article indicates that Israel 'may' have instigated part of the situation, knowing the probable outcome, while Hamas may have intentionally provoked the attacks, but misjudged the degree of response.
It is impossible for us to sit here and be sure exactly what was in whose minds and what they expect to gain.

    I doubt Israel wants land anywhere else in the world....or that the Palestinians will ever just shrug and accept Israel's presence in the region.

   What we have is a sense of 'righteousness' from ALL parties, driven by first: religious beliefs about a little piece of elevated land, and then by memories of whatever handy recent memories of injury done to them...no matter WHO did what first.


"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:19 AM

..a pre-meditatated massacre, as evidenced in this Haaretz article:

Disinformation, secrecy and lies: How the Gaza offensive came about

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: heatherblether
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 02:24 AM

Gaza has been half starved and blockaded by Israel for several years .Israel has been waging economic war against its civilian population in a totally illegal way. This blockade has meant that essential medical supplies have been stopped,the power stations have been destroyed and movement in and out of Gaza halted.Hundreds of Palestinian children in Gaza have been killed in the past few years by the Israeli military and thousands more maimed or terrorised. Gideon Levy,an Israeli writer with the Israeli Haaretz newspaper, has described the military actions of Israel as that of the neighbourhood bully.How right he is.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:47 AM

It would be a different situation than just allowing the Jews in Israel to immigrate to the US. The question revolves around the concept of a Jewish state, which apparently requires that Jews be in the majority. That means that a lot of people who are not Jews would need to be cleared out (as happened to the Palestinians), and people who weren't Jewish wouldn't be allowed to move there from elsewhere if doing so would threaten the Jewish majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:28 AM

We already did that, with 46% of the world's Jewish population in US and Canada (compared with Israel's 37%, and Europe's 15%), and there's no objection and no problem at all. You guys in the rest of the world need to lighten up and start getting along with your neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 11:26 PM

"It is only when at least 3000 miles exist between the borders of the Arab nations(predominantly Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Syria) and Israel will there be the remotest chance of a lasting peace."

You mean shift Israel across the Atlantic and give them a bit of what is now the United States? It's a bit late for that, even if the Israelis were willing - and I suspect the inhabitants of whichever bit of the United States was chosen would object pretty strenuously to being told to get out to make room for the settlers. It'd just be the same conflict all over again, but with Americans instead of Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 09:31 PM

"And here I sit so patiently
Waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of
Going through these things twice."

Gospel of Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 09:13 PM

"...your whole goddamn country is land stolen by genocidal violence..."

Whoa. No cause for complacency. If only because it is so much older, Britain has a MUCH worse record

Fuck that. I may live here but I owe its government no allegiance whatever.

Yeah, the British started expropriations in North America before the US existed. The US proceeded to steal several times as much land as the colonials had done, with far worse atrocities. They had the historic opportunity to make some sort of peace with the Native Americans, given that the situation they were in was not of their making, and maybe create a state like Jesuit Paraguay. Instead they chose continuing genocide while blabbering to the world about "liberty".

Obviously the UK regime is in no hurry to denounce the Zionists as the murdering, thieving filth they are, given their own record in India, Africa, Australasia, the Caribbean and the Far East. The fact that they won't say it doesn't make the Zionists any less murdering, thieving filth.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 08:49 PM

Yeah, Tijuana is a real threat... I hear the TLO (Tijuana Liberation Organization) is plotting against the US because the venders at the border crossing in SanDiego say that the US tourists just aren't buying enough Mexican blankets this year...

I say, "Nuke them blanket peddlers"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: heric
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 07:44 PM

Oh, sorry. I had a disclaimer about the subject itself not being funny, but deleted it accidentally when shortening the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 07:38 PM

You would be less inclined to laugh if you were living in Netivot, Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: heric
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 07:33 PM

The Israeli government sees it just as simplistically. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said that "[T]he American government would not have waited one day before they would have responded if San Diego had been hit from Tijuana with thousands of rockets."

I don't doubt the prediction but the entire analogy makes me laugh for some reason - Just glad to have Mexico as a neighbor, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 06:41 PM

"...your whole goddamn country is land stolen by genocidal violence..."

Whoa. No cause for complacency. If only because it is so much older, Britain has a MUCH worse record.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 05:50 PM

The US can't very well take any other position. When your whole goddamn country is land stolen by genocidal violence you can't risk opening the whole can of worms by condemning somebody else for doing the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 03:49 PM

Condi Rice said today that "Bush has laid the groundwork for a Palestinian state".

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 02:52 PM

I am standing by my statement that Bush turned his back on the Isreali/Palestinian conflict... Yes, he has been supportive of Isreali but hasn't done jack in regards to either the Palestians or the conflict other than to try starve Hammas out... That has intensified the conflict... Not lessened it...

It's time to dust off the "Saudi Proposal" which would have provided a framework for Isreal's security while also providing for a Palestinian state and the resources to make that state healthy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 02:39 PM

I have on occasions been accused by other members of being "simplistic" in my appraisal of President Elect Mr Obama.

This from Mr Obama in todays Sunday Times....."If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm goint to do everything in my power to stop that, and I would expect the Israelis to do the same thing".....That seems to me a very simplistic statement and shows little hope of CHANGE in America's Middle East policy.

Israelis have been further encouraged by Mr Obama's key appointments, from his vice presidential running mate Joe Biden, long a prominent supporter of Israel, to his choice of rahm Emanuel, a leading Jewish congressman as his White House chief of staff.

Carol is correct, the US always has and always will support the Israelis in their subjugation of the Palestinian people.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 01:47 PM

The US has never turned its back on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Not even during the Bush administration. The US has always supported the Israeli side of the conflict with weapons and with many billions of dollars of US taxpayer money. If the US were to well and truly ignore the conflict, it might actually have a chance of coming to some kind of resolution.

It's simply not possible for the US to arm Israel to the teeth and prop up its economy with US taxpayer dollars and expect US emissaries to be able to broker a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 10:55 AM

We can talk until we are blue in the face, we can have as many Kissingers, Blairs, Rices, Obamas et al, we can call upon the U.N. for ever and a day, we can pray to whichever Almighty we believe in, we can pull every stroke known to man but I fear they will fall on stony ground as they have done ever since the mid 1900`s. It is only when at least 3000 miles exist between the borders of the Arab nations(predominantly Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Syria) and Israel will there be the remotest chance of a lasting peace. How we can achieve this is a question the whole world must address before "Old Nuke" raises his head again.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:19 PM

The cease-fire was brokered by Egypt, fyi.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 09:11 PM

This is what you see when the US turns its back on the Isreali/Palistanian conflict.... Every president going back forever was engaged... Bush said, "Let 'um fight it out"... Then after 7 years Bush said, "Geeze, that was dumb... Condi... Get over there..."

This can all be laid at the feet of George Bush who came into office and thought that everything that administrations before him were wrong... That was stupid... This isn't an easy problem top solve and will take US involvement no matter what Bush spent 7 years thinking...

It's almost like starting over... Hillary is gonna be one busy lady over the next 4 years cleaning up after the neocons and Bush...

But one thing is for sure, for anyone who thinks that starving Hamas out is sorely mistaken if this is their long range plan for the Middle-east... Ain't gonna do jack... Just make more desperate folks willing to launch rockets... Poverty isn't the greatest motivator toward peace....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 08:55 PM

Edmonton Journal reported a few (maybe yesterday) days back that the cease-fire that had lasted for 6 months was ended by Hamas, after which they started the same old same-o. They rocket and mortar attacked Israel. Olmert said that either Hamas could stop the attacks on CIVILIAN TARGETS or else there would be consequences. These are them I guess, because the rocket attacks continued and the Israelis are going to wage war.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 08:08 PM

All atrocities in this kind of situation are seen by those carrying them out as justified reactions to previous atrocities by the pother side.

If the idea on either side is that reprisals can somehow stop the cycle of violence, that is demonstrably crazy.

However, if the aim on each side is to provoke counter atrocities and keep the cycle of violence going, it all makes perfect sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 07:41 PM

When I was in college there was a big debate on campus about some guy who had offended someone on some minor level but the guy went ballistic which triggered a major reaction from the other, etc. I don't recall much now about any of it except the Dean found the one student had "over-reacted" and the other had an "over-reaction to the over-reaction."

At the time many of us laughed at the phrasing and found it "stupid." As the years have passed I find it seems to be the norm of world diplomacy, especially in the flashpoint areas like the middle east. The politico threads here are more like that all the time too.........take this thread for instance from the very first post. The reaction here is pretty mild but still there and building.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 06:56 PM

Today shows clearly that neither 'side' is blameless or innocent....it makes little difference exactly who started it THIS time - the civilians are just as dead...the 1st rocket was stupid and the overdone response was stupid. It has been like this since 1947.

"False are the bickering reigns-
Of Honor, of Homeland, of War"

   -Bob Beers "The Seasons of Peace"

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 12:57 PM

Once again today it is demonstrated how terrible are the consequences when terrorists really are in control of weapons of mass destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 12:25 PM

If they were randomly shooting them into Israel, we can deduce their intent to hit civilians. If they were aiming them specifically at Israeli military targets, then we can deduce their intent to hit military targets. And yes, some people do take credit for killing children (as well as adult non-combatants). Although some people might prefer to say that no one is taking responsibility. Either way, no one has admitted to firing that rocket.

For my own part, it's not possible for me to know who did it or what they were targeting. I can only say under what circumstances I would condemn the act.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:58 AM

Fire rockets at civilian targets? Wouldn't that imply intention?
Taking credit? Does one take credit for killing children?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:27 AM

It needs to be said that there are groups that **WANT** the violence to continue, and who will use any method to provoke the other side. (same as the India/Pakistan conflicts)

This is true of a few from BOTH sides. It takes very little to assure that it will never cease.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:12 AM

So much for "mixed signals". So sad... so very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: polaitaly
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:09 AM

Israel air strikes on Gaza. There are two hundreds people dead yet.
Israel says "it's just the beginning".

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 07:07 AM

Israeli air strikes on Hamas Police stations this morning in Gaza, in retailiation for rocket attacks.
Happy New Year? Will it never end?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 04:25 AM

The incident (I think the same one) was reported briefly by a couple of my usual sources, but is no longer visible.

An extended search finds the only thing likely to be the incident cited:

Palestinian rocket kills 2 Gaza girls: medics
Reuters
updated 8:09 a.m. CT, Fri., Dec. 26, 2008

GAZA - A rocket apparently fired by Palestinians on Friday struck a house in the Gaza Strip, killing two Palestinian sisters aged five and 13, Palestinian medics said.

Hamas police said they were investigating the cause of the blast in Beit Lahiya village in northern Gaza, which medics said seemed to be due to a rocket aimed at Israel that had misfired.

Gaza militants frequently fire rockets at Israel from the same area.
The incident came amid rising tensions with Israel, with officials threatening stepped-up military action against Gaza militants to stop rocket shootings from the coastal territory.

Copyright 2008 Reuters.

[end quote]

A currently current article on the general subject of the conflict gives (if one reads the whole article) some context for the state of conflict, and in that context the incident cited is pretty much "business as usual" and not really merit-worthy for the international press:

Israel reopens Gaza border

Hamas rocket, mortar fire continues; Egypt plays mediator role

The Associated Press
updated 8:24 a.m. CT, Fri., Dec. 26, 2008

JERUSALEM - Israel reopened its border with Gaza on Friday to allow deliveries of humanitarian aid, despite continued rocket and mortar fire from the coastal strip and growing expectations of a large-scale Israeli military campaign against Palestinian militants.
The military said approximately 90 trucks would deliver medicine, fuel, cooking gas and other vital goods into Gaza. The shipment includes a large donation of goods from Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's wife as well as more than 150,000 gallons of fuel and 200 tons of natural gas, the military said.
Israel's Defense Ministry said it agreed to open its cargo crossings into Gaza to avoid a humanitarian crisis there. Defense Minister Ehud Barak said the decision came after consultations with defense officials as well as calls from the international community. Israel controls Gaza's cargo crossings, which are used to deliver food, fuel and other goods into the territory.
Cabinet Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer said the humanitarian shipment was meant to be a message to the people of Gaza that they were not Israel's enemy.

"We are sending them a message that the Hamas leadership has turned them into a punching bag for everyone," he told Israel Radio. "It is a leadership that has turned school yards in rocket launching pads.
This a leadership that does not care that the blood of its people will run in the streets."

[end quote]

The context needed relative to this incident is actually further down in the article, but it's too lengthy to quote entire here. Rocket launches of the kind believed to have caused the incident cited are almost daily happenings. Neither side in this conflict has rockets sufficiently accurate to expect to hit "only" militarily significant targets, so it's essentially terrorism expected to harm mostly civilians, with only a vague pretense of being military action - or so it appears from here.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 01:32 AM

First time I heard about it was just now when I looked at this thread. If the rocket fire came from Gaza (no one is taking credit, so I don't think we can say for sure that it did), and if the people who were responsible were targeting civilians in Israel, then I condemn their actions. If, however, they were targeting Israeli military, then it was a very unfortunate accident in a legitimate campaign for Gazans' freedom and liberty, and I don't condemn it, although it saddens me to learn about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 05:52 PM

Anyone who fires rockets, or drops bombs, or fires shells from tanks, or carries out "surgical air strikes", and civilians get butchered...

There's a lot of it about.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 05:46 PM

Yeah...I got a 'protest'. Prefacing a post with another '...it sure would have been different IF someone else had done that...' is always bad form.

Oh...and yes, anyone who fire rockets at ANY civilian targets is to be condemned.

(I watch the news..I never heard about it, so I couldn't have protested.. ....the networks haven't tried too hard during the holidays to follow things..)

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 05:33 PM

Well, yeah, that's a purdy messed up deal... Just more fruits of Bush's failed Isreali/Paletianian policies...

B~

Subject: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 05:19 PM

If Israeli rockets had done this, there would be loud screams of protest: I hear a lot of silence....





Palestinian rocket misfires, kills 2 girls in Gaza
   
By IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer Ibrahim Barzak,

Associated Press Writer – GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – A crude rocket fired by Palestinian militants fell short of its target in Israel on Friday, striking a house in the northern Gaza Strip and killing two schoolgirls.

The attack came as Israel sent mixed signals over its plans to respond to continuing Palestinian rocket fire. Israeli defense officials say politicians have approved a large-scale incursion into the territory once rainy conditions clear. But at the same time, Israel appeared receptive to international pressure against an invasion, opening the Gaza border Friday to allow in deliveries of humanitarian aid.

None of Gaza's militant factions claimed responsibility for the deadly attack on the house in Beit Lahiya. Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moiaya Hassanain said the two victims, ages 5 and 12, were cousins. Three other children were wounded, he said.

The girls were the first Palestinian civilians inadvertently killed by militants since their truce with Israel began collapsing six weeks ago. Family members and medics said they were killed by rocket fire.

Israel's crossings with Gaza have been largely clamped tight since Islamic Hamas militants seized control of the coastal strip in June 2007, with only the barest essentials allowed in since a June 19 truce with Gaza gunmen began unraveling six weeks ago.

On Thursday, however, Israel's Defense Ministry said it agreed to open its cargo crossings into Gaza to avoid a humanitarian crisis there. Defense Minister Ehud Barak said the decision followed consultations with defense officials and calls from the international community, suggesting Israel might be open to international pressure to resume the truce.

A total of 106 trucks carried medicine, fuel, cooking gas and other vital goods into Gaza, including a small donation from Egypt, the military said.

Cabinet Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer said the humanitarian shipment was meant to be a message to the people of Gaza that they were not Israel's enemy.

"We are sending them a message that the Hamas leadership has turned them into a punching bag for everyone," he told Israel Radio. "It is a leadership that has turned school yards into rocket-launching pads. This a leadership that does not care that the blood of its people will run in the streets."

Ben-Eliezer echoed the message Prime Minister Ehud Olmert tried to deliver a day earlier in an interview with the Arabic language Al-Arabiya TV station: that Gaza's Islamic Hamas militant rulers were to blame for the suffering in Gaza, home to 1.4 million Palestinians.

But, as with similar cases involving unintended civilian casualties in the past, there were no immediate signs of backlash against the militants after the girls' death.

The militants kept up their fire on Israeli border areas despite Israel's agreement to open its crossings Friday. In all, 13 rockets and mortars were fired toward Israel by Friday evening, the military said. One home was struck but no injuries were reported.

Israel had originally agreed to open the cargo crossings with Gaza on Wednesday, but shut the passages after militants began pounding southern Israel with rockets and mortars.

Pressure has been mounting in Israel for the military to crush Gaza militants, and Israeli leaders have been voicing strong threats in recent days. But on Friday, military officials said the army was planning a routine rotation of its troops along the Gaza border in the coming week. That, coupled with winter weather, made an imminent operation seem unlikely, they said.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not permitted to discuss military strategy publicly.

Israel left Gaza in 2005 after a 38-year occupation and has been reluctant to press ahead with a campaign likely to exact heavy casualties on both sides. Past incursions have not halted the barrages, and officials fear anything short of a reoccupation of Gaza would fail to achieve the desired results.