BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 12:37 PM

There is only one reason for which one should get off on a charge of homicide: in defense of their life or the life of another. Carry a weapon of any sort with you and, well, as Chekhov said, "If you hang a gun on the wall in the first act you must use it by the third." You expect that you will need to use it, therefore you are responsible for any use of it by yourself or by another.

Many murders are done in the "heat of passion"; many are also planned. Poisoning, for example, isn't usually something that's a spur-of-the-moment crime. Neither is a good arson. If you kill someone with a knife or gun you must acquire a knife or a gun -- which indicates planning.

Why do we pity the poor who Madoff ripped off and not the rich? Didn't both groups put their trust in the man and he failed both? Wasn't he just as cruel to a wealthy investor as to the poor widow? Because a wealthy person can perhaps better withstand the loss in no way lessens what Madoff did to both.

And don't forget that the poor widow was looking to make money just as much as the wealthy were.

He knew what he was doing, just as the killer knows what he is doing when he buys a butcher knife.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Midchuck
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:11 AM

Madoff has a guarantee of a place to sleep that's out of the weather, and adequate regular meals, for life.

Many of his victims don't. (Unless they move to a part of the country where you can afford those things on Social Security - which is not New York City or Florida, and they probably can't imagine surviving anywhere else.)

I'm not sure prison is the right place for people who commit pure property crimes. But I'm not sure what is. Galley slave would be good, but we don't use them anymore.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: number 6
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:31 AM

Jacqui and Ebbie ... I see your points ... and I agree Madoff was calculating in what he did, and yes he did lose, and deserved to lose, and yes deserved to go to prison. I also agree many people have suffered because of their trust in him.

Again ... using Spector as a comparison .... his act of murder wasn't in the heat of the moment ... he had an evil mind and was a loaded gun for some time. His declaration of his own innocence is disturbing in itself. This can be found in many murder cases as of late.


Both men should not see the light of freedom for their remaining days. I just find 150 years for Madoff's crime as opposed to 19 years for Spector says something of where our values lay.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:52 AM

I agree with Ebbie. However, a serial killer would most likely get life without the possibility of parole same as Madoff, as would anyone who murdered in cold blood.

When you have very elderly people, one, at least, in his 90s we are led to believe, who have to go back to work to earn enough money to live on, then the perpetrator of that crime should be treated harshly.

Most murders are heat of the moment and it is unlikely that the person would repeat the act. That, to me, is very different from someone who deliberately carries out a scheme to enrich himself beyond a normal person's wildest dreams and at the expense of so many people. Madoff is where he belongs - he played the game and, in the end, he lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: number 6
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:27 AM

yes Ebbie ... but what has more value ... an apple or an orange.

People have lost their money ... they played the game and lost, but at least they can get on with their lives

in the case of Phil Spector as an example (Phil, being another old guy) ... the mother of Lana Clarkson has lost a child.

if anyone committed suicide over losing money in the Madoff scheme, well they valued $money$ over life.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: alanabit
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:21 AM

Actually Ebbie, I see it your way too. Most killers are weak, confused people, who do it in a moment of desperation. Madoff is a different animal altogether. He knew exactly what he was doing and did it with great deliberation over many years. I can hardly think of a more fitting description of a true criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 02:18 AM

I don't see it that way. If Madoff had killed someone but otherwise led an exemplary life I can see that as a lesser offense than ruining the lives and livelihoods of hundreds of people. Kind of apples and oranges.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM

Madoff gets 150 years ... it appears $money$ is more valuable than a human life.

This is the United States of America. Yeah, money is more valuable than a human life -- alas. Sad commentary.

Just my two cents' worth. (That's all I've got.)

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 09:39 PM

"Reggie Perrin/ Hartlepool Darwin "? I'll have to google that.

He also said that people with that mindset - extreme narcissism - frequently find themselves very comfortable in a prison cell. And that quite possibly, Madoff will be popular in prison, that he may become an adviser to the 'losers'. (I am paraphrasing)

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 07:01 PM

""...people with Madoff's mindset rarely kill themselves."   But they might be tempted by the Reggie Perrin/ Hartlepool Darwin option...

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:55 PM

"...people with Madoff's mindset rarely kill themselves."

Too bad. A lot of people would have liked to and they might not have been able to sleep at night... the first night.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:45 PM

I think that decision will be taken out of his hands . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:44 PM

I still don't remember what news show it was on, maybe Newshour with Jim Lehrer?, but the consultant said that people with Madoff's mindset rarely kill themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:41 PM

I'd say Bernie made off quite well. If he hadn't been in police custody, he might have suffered a timely death.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 05:50 PM

The other evening a news program said that the 21st floor operation of the tower was legitimate but the 19th was the floor where all the shenanigans and coverups were routine. They even showed pictures of both floors. Where they got their information I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 05:34 PM

". . . his lawyer pleaded for early release on the grounds that his client had developed dementia whilst doing time in an open prison. A friendly judge duly released Saunders who then went on to begin a second career as a financial advisor. Of course, it does help to have a friendly judge...... "

Judging by todays stock market, it also helps to have dementia.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 05:23 PM

They have identified/frozen 'about' a billion of Madoff's loot. There may be a bit more as stuff is discovered.This will eventually get distributed to the victims...but exactly when and using what formula has not been decided.
It's going pretty slowly.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 03:08 PM

I find this whole thing fascinating. I'd like to know if the Madoff operation was ever legitimate, and I'm interested in how they're going to re-redistribute the wealth that he distributed, for, inasmuch as his distributions were not true dividends, many of his (?innocent?) investors received what was basically stolen goods, and I think the entire criminal enterprise is up for a complete investigation and many folks will have to fork over their part of the distributions. Of course, a lot of them will say they are only getting their own capital back.

This is a cornucopia of con manipulation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: number 6
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 03:01 PM

Example .... Phil Spector ... 19 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: number 6
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 02:59 PM

Not that much different.

Killers get off with less time.

in both countries human life is less valuable than $money$

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: meself
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 02:50 PM

Um ... we're talking about two different countries, here, with two different sets of laws ...

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 02:07 PM

Where's the cabbage!?

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: 3refs
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 01:52 PM

Should we even mention the deal that was made with that "Devil Bitch" Karla? 7 years later she gets to walk the streets!

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: number 6
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 01:46 PM

Odd .... today in New Brunswick a convicted murderer (of 2 people) gets 17 years (before parole)

Madoff gets 150 years ... it appears $money$ is more valuable than a human life.

I dunno.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: 3refs
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 01:43 PM

Unfortunately we have no control of the afterlife, or we could add a little purgatory to his sentence.
I don't particularly care what ethnic/religious group he ripped off more. The fact is he is responsible for more grief than any of us could imagine unless it's happened to us, a loved one or a friend. I would think that he is the direct cause of suicides, assaults, mental illness and an endless list of other human tragedies.

And to think that many among us are opposed to torture!

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 12:42 PM

Thank-you Richard. I am sure you are better informed. I had always thought that although the charges proven against Aitken were relatively trivial, the real unpleasantness of his gun running activities was never really brought before the courts. Were not the libel suits a result of him being able to conceal those?
As for Maxwell, the question still remains why he was still able to bully and intimidate for years after he was suspected of being what he was - a bankrupt crook.
To some extent it is gratifying to know that occasionally one of the big boys gets caught and punished. It would comfort a lot of us to know that other big scale financial hoods might have to face the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 08:49 AM

There are a bunch of others, lesser figures (including some of the family) who are implicated and, in some cases indicted, whose trials are yet to come.

Once again, this shows that if it seems too good to be true it probably is.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 08:39 AM

alanabit, the difference between Madoff and the repulsive Aitken was that it seems that pretty well all of Madoff's assets were the proceeds of crime, whereas despite the brilliant detective work done by Simon Olswang's firm that exposed Aitken's perjury there was no doubt that much of his assetts were gained by non-criminal means (for example his many successful libel actions).

You have the Maxwell situation quite wrong. Maxwell terrified many of his critics through the libel actions brought by his then lawyer, Anthony Julius of Victor Mishcon & Co - but not the judges.

The Krays and the Richardsons however did have corrupt members of the house of Lords for whom they procured rent-boys who would "have a word" with judges and policemen.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 07:57 AM

I was quite surprised to see a criminal on this scale banged up at all. I recall that while another infamous crook, Robert Maxwell, was alive, he put the fear of God into judges so effectively that he was essentially immune from prosecution as long as he was alive.
It has come as a pleasant surprise to know that even a crook as big as Madoff occasionally gets brought to book.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Arnie
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:03 AM

Madoff should try the Ernest Saunders approach to his jail sentence. Saunders was a crook who made a lot of money out of the Guiness share scandal of the '80's and was locked away for a long time - I can't remember his sentence but it was for quite a few years. Anyway, his lawyer pleaded for early release on the grounds that his client had developed dementia whilst doing time in an open prison. A friendly judge duly released Saunders who then went on to begin a second career as a financial advisor. Of course, it does help to have a friendly judge......

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 05:20 AM

How many suicides is he responsible for? There's one reported over here.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 05:01 AM

It is sure a gift to racists and bigots, who want another "evil Jew" stereotype.
I was quite interested in Richard Bridge's comment that Mrs.Madoff would have problems holding onto her assets in a UK court. I ain't going to argue with a lawyer on that issue. However, I wonder if you could put me right on the case of Jonathon Aitken. At one stage, I read that although he was legally separated from his wife Lolicia, he was actually sharing a flat with her shortly after his release from prison. I also read that the assets had been transferred into her name. Does this mean that you can save your assets from seizure by simply legally separating and transferring the assets?

Going back to Madoff, I suppose the big question is how was a man able to get away with so much for so long. Surely this was only possible because of lax security and accounting procedures?

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 11:07 PM

So, what has he given to antisemites?

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 09:20 PM

I wonder what Madoff's rabbi thinks of the gift Madoff has given to antisemites.

I was under the impression that the majority of his victims were also Jewish. If not a majority, at least a whole bunch.

P.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 09:09 PM

His wife "in a deal with the law" has forfeited all but about 2.5 million. She will be watched carefully. Poor thing, her hair dresser refused her an appointment and requested she not come back. Seems a few other clients were screwed over in the scam and suspect she knows where the money is.
I feel no pity for madoff. There are people in their 70s and 80s forced to go back to work because he stole all their savings. There are elderly parents now relying exclusively on Social Security when they thought they could live out their days reasonably comfortably. We are not talking about millionaires but working people - some even retired cops. It is obscene that he was allowed to get away with it for decades while the SEC was told over and over that he was running a scam.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 08:51 PM

The courts put a freeze on US $2.1 billion of his wife's assets, I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 08:25 PM

What the SEC was doing was ignoring, belittling, and castigating several of its own people who had been trying for years to tell them Madoff was crooked. It's what happens when a governmental agency hires its honchos from the ranks of the people it's supposed to be scrutinizing. "Naw! Bernie can't be crooked! I've known Bernie for years! Go find someone else to investigate."

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:52 PM

If I remember correctly the judge denied bail for that very reason; he is/was considered a flight risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:43 PM

Oh.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:36 PM

"WTF was the SEC doing while this shit was goin' down?"

             They were deregulated by Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, there wasn't anybody there to notice.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: heric
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:26 PM

Duke Cunningham's wife fought tooth and nail to keep her innocently acquired "half," too. She never suspected or questioned for a second anything about where all those Rolls Royces and yachts were coming from - so why should she have to suffer, too?

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:12 PM

I'd understood his bail was set at a measly 10 million. Heck, I figured he'd be outta the country by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:11 PM

REALLY. That then is cool, but it sure does nothin' for the people who lost everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:07 PM

Peace, I believe he has been in jail for months already (no bail) and is due for sentence and transfer to prison.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:58 PM

BTW, he ain't gonna serve a friggin' day. He'll appeal and drop dead of natural causes before he does any time.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:53 PM

No gift, Richard. See the Enron decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM

WTF was the SEC doing while this shit was goin' down? The rest of the market is up and down like a friggin' yoyo and Madoff's showing a constant 15%. Yeah. Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:51 PM

In the UK, under POCA (the Proceeds of Crime Act) she would have a big problem.

I wonder what Madoff's rabbi thinks of the gift Madoff has given to antisemites.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:37 PM

"Next, Hank Paulson."

             Actually, I think that Bible thumper from Texas is suppose to be next.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:11 PM

Madoff's loving, sweet, 'not-accused' wife has been spending months trying to get all possible assets transferred to HER name. I haven't heard news of her noting any form of sympathy for those who lost their life savings.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:08 PM

Next, Hank Paulson.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 05:50 PM

FWIW, I'm not the only one who suspects that Madoff (What an apt name!) has, knowingly and purposefully, taken the fall for the rest of the family. Knowing his own guilt he knew he couldn't reasonably expect to escape prosecution and conviction- he could, however, attempt to keep the others in the know out of prison.

Greater love hath no man... humpf

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 05:38 PM

It's harsh, but if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Madoff has badly hurt many people, many non-profit organizations, and many businesses. He's 75, a sentence of 35 years without parole would be equivalent to a death sentence. This will be appealed and probably reduced to a mere 50 years or so.

I cannot get up any sympathy for him -- I really do feel for the people he's hurt, including his family.

Subject: RE: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 05:37 PM

I think they need to liquidate all of his holdings, his wife's holdings, his sons' holdings, all of the officers in his company's holdings, the furniture, and everything they can get their hands on, and make the victims as whole as possible. Sending him to jail doesn't really do them any good.

Subject: BS: Bernard Madoff Goes To Jail
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 05:27 PM

I read here that Bernard Madoff is undergoing a change of lifestyle. I am not expecting Mudcatters to organise a whip round for him or express a huge amount of sympathy. I do not really have a hard and fast opinion on it either. On the one hand, I find it really brutal to bang up a seventy-five year old for 150 years (although with good behaviour, he will probably be out in 140...) On the other hand, this is the sort of cold blooded, calculating thief, whom I like the least. I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone who feels differently. I was just wondering how others feel about it?