BS: The Bad Guys are winning

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 07:54 PM

NAZI's ..... the big guns who control the drug trade in North America are the Hell's Angels .... a bunch of neo nazi's who are also white supremists.

They pretty well controlled the government and justice system and bullied the press to escape persecution in Quebec for a while.

Sometimes you have to get a bit "dirty" to fight these guys. That's what they had to do in Quebec to gain control of the press and justice system.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 05:58 PM

Cool with me... fact is, thank goodness the Canadian justice system does not agree with you and your self righteous vigilanty attitude. Have fun at your next lynching... and hope it's not yours.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: meself
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 05:36 PM

Thank you for the lecture. Tell Richard Bridge to read some law books. Tell Justice Deschamps to read some law books. As for history books - I have no reason to believe I have read any fewer than have you.

I agree that this an important issue, and in principle well worth discussing. However, as your mind seems quite made up on the issue, and as you are beginning to repeat yourself, I'm sure you will understand if I do not bother to read or respond to any further posts you make make on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 04:01 PM

I know I said gnightgnu, but this is too important an issue for me to just walk away from.

If the police break the law they subvert and undermine the law.

If the courts simply slap the police on the wrist for breaking the law, they subvert and undermine the law.

If justice is allowed to to be subverted and undermined on the premise, rather, assumption, at best, that it is for the greater good of all, justice becomes arbitrary and no longer protects the rights of the INDIVIDUAL.

When justice becomes arbitrary, shit happens.

When the Nazis knock on your door, remember that you that YOU were the one that that gave them the power to do so.

Read some history and law books.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 02:43 PM

Even though there are a few corrupt cops .... I would put my trust in a cop over a drug dealer any day.

meself ... I agree ... anyone who agrees with the court in this issue has can satisfactorily answer that question.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: meself
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 02:19 PM

'The "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine' - would that be the idea that the edible fruit must be thrown out because the tree is poisoned? If so, I agree with you. If the police break the law, they can suffer appropriate consequences - but that should not include the freeing of criminals. And no one has satisfactorily answered the question of what the response should be if an illegal stop and/or search reveals a murder victim, or a hostage.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 12:02 PM

The "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine is too draconian.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 07:03 AM

That cop had no right to stop that vehicle in the first place. So, anything he did from then on was illegal.

It is so easy to blame the courts when the real blame should go to the police. I cant tell you the number of shady tricks the cops and wardens have pulled while I was working in law enforcement.
My own supervisor insisted that I lie on the stand and I refused.

Make the case; make it right and the bad guys don't go free. In 17 years of law enforcement I lost one case. My witness was scared out of his mind and he blew it.
The reason I lost only one case was because I did not bring half assed cases to court. If I couldn't make it iron bound I did not bother.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 02:10 PM

I fully agree string ... but the problem is finding the "people with good values" to stand up ... we now live in an era where people are so much into themselves that they are oblivious to, not only the world around them, but most importantly oblivious to the community in which they live.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 12:37 PM

The only reason bad guys appear to be winning is that they are being enabled by those who deal with them. Many of these people superficially appear to be socially acceptable.

Bad guys will always win until people with good values stand up against them and not just by sicking cops on them but stop enabling them with their addictive habits.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: meself
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 06:43 PM

"gnight"?? It's not even 8:00 o'clock yet in your part of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 06:31 PM

Sigh... the bad guys are definitely gonna win.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: meself
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 05:39 PM

Okay, I apologize fully for saying something that you took as an "assertion" that you wished to punish police when they fail to comply with the "laws, policies and guidelines of the land". However, I don't know how you can have accountability without the threat of punishment.

"Secondly, reprimanding, fining or jailing a policeman for breaking the law as justification for ignoring the law is unacceptable simply based on logic."

The punishment isn't "justification for ignoring the law"; it's punishment for breaking the law, that's all.

And if you see me at the inquisition, make yourself known, and I will eat my inquisitor's or heretic's hat, just for you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 05:09 PM

meself... you missed MY point.

You said, "Sure the police should be accountable - so reprimand them, fine them, throw them in jail - but DON'T let criminals go free in order to punish police."

Firstly, your assertion that I wish to punish the police is reprehensible. I take umbrage.

Secondly, reprimanding, fining or jailing a policeman for breaking the law as justification for ignoring the law is unacceptable simply based on logic. The results of such would still allow a breach of justice, policy and guidelines.

It just doesn't make sense.

Have fun at the inquisition.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: meself
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 04:56 PM

I don't see how this decision does anything to enhance my rights - any traffic cop can still pull me over and give me a hard time if he feels like it, and for no other reason. I have the same recourses I always have had: I can lodge an official complaint, proffer charges against him, sue him, etc. The only difference is that now if I have a couple of pounds of cocaine sitting on the passenger seat, I have a better chance of beating the rap if he bothers to charge me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 04:46 PM

gnu, you nailed it.

Lizzie! I case you hadn't noticed the world has been "bonkers" since at least the 60's or you might even argue, since Picasso!

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: meself
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 04:36 PM

"You do not believe the police should be accountable under the laws, policies and guidelines of the land to ensure abuse of power does not occur?"


You missed my point. Sure the police should be accountable - so reprimand them, fine them, throw them in jail - but DON'T let criminals go free in order to punish police. It just doesn't make sense.


"Hitler? Stalin? Pol Pot?"


If the circumstances are right for a character of that ilk to grab power, I'm afraid the decisions of a few Supreme Court judges are not going to slow them down much.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 04:34 PM

robo ... it is an interesting case ... that's for sure.

as to your statement ... "As for Bad Guys winning, not in the long run, but it's real sad now in northern Mexico as there's no one to believe in."

Extremely sad.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 04:34 PM

In the West of Scotland, many of the drug and money lending operations are run by "travellers".....yes, believe it or not, the horse and the old caravan have given way to heroin and eight wheeled, chrome plated, travelling palaces.

These thugs are worse than Glasgow gangsters, they are protected by "rights" legislation, and the police are almost powerless to carry out searches in the traveller enclaves.

They are notorious locally for their brutality, and many young addicts or others who cannot pay their "debts" are sporting "two mooths" courtesy of the travelling people.

The victims of yesteryear are now the victimisers assisted by "rights for all"

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 04:28 PM

number 6-

thank you for the link. I read it. I come down on the side of allowing the boxes of drugs as evidence and keeping the driver in the slammer, but I'm not a Canadian justice.

It is an interesting case, and I wonder how similar circumstances would play out in the US system.

As for Bad Guys winning, not in the long run, but it's real sad now in northern Mexico as there's no one to believe in.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 04:17 PM

meself ... very good point. By example of todays move by the Supreme Court should he ignore a body in the back of a car in such a case?

Here's what should have happened.

The accused should be thrown in jail for for 10 - 15 years (whatever) for possession of (hard) drugs for the purpose of trafficking. He could file a civil liberties suit against the police and given 2 years off his sentence and sue for $money$ .. certainly far less $$ than he would have gotten for his marketing efforts.

The cop should be written up and have that on his records for a pre-determined amount of time .. lesson learned. Obviously he was a rookie.

That 4.5 $million$ represents a lot of drugs watered down by the time it reaches the street. But what should be noted is it represents a lot of human misery ... a lotta victims. Drug pushers have no respect for humanity ... period.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 03:42 PM

Are youse serious? You do not believe the police should be accountable under the laws, policies and guidelines of the land to ensure abuse of power does not occur?

Hitler? Stalin? Pol Pot?

Ring a bell? Maybe YOUR doorbell?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: 3refs
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 03:28 PM

Even when the "bad guys" win, because of a violation of The Charter of Rights and Freedoms, we all win.
I'm really quite surprised at the ruling though, as this resembles the Queen vs Thompson. A case inwhich the defendant was pulled over and given a Roadside Breath Test. As he was giving evidence and had no access to, or the opportunity to contact a lawyer on the side of the road, nor was he given the Standard Police Precaution, his Constitutional Rights were in fact violated(according to the Supreme Court). They(the Justices)maintained that because Impaired Driving was an epidemic out of control they held that the conviction and the use of Roadside Breath Tests, was in the best interest of the public.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: meself
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 03:22 PM

Here's the decision: http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2009/2009scc34/2009scc34.html.

It's the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long time (and I've been following Mudcat for some years now) .... I suppose if they'd had a murder victim sitting in the back seat, the cop should have just ignored it, rather than interfere with their rights.

My own opinion is that in cases where police acquire compelling evidence by questionable means, they should be given a stern talking-to by the judge, and made to take a day off work to think about their behaviour. But why the police and all the rest of us should be punished by having criminals released scot-free into society is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 03:22 PM

Fact is, NOBODY is above the law (except politicians and rich people).

The cops did not do their job properly. Case thrown out. As it should have been.

When the police show up at your door and want to search your house for no reason, you might reconsider.

If you support a change in policy and procedure in this regard, you support the worst nightmaresssssssssssssss in human history.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:44 PM

Whoooops.

the blue linky didn`t work

try going here for more facts on that case

facts

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:42 PM

"Mexico is a far far different case than Canada where the drug runners include the enforcement authorities and own many politicians."

and they don't here in the Canada and U.S.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:41 PM

Here are the facts (if anyone is interested)

the facts

regardless, I feel the bad guys are winning, in Mexico, in Canada, in the U.S. .....

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:39 PM

Mexico is a far far different case than Canada where the drug runners include the enforcement authorities and own many politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:35 PM

World's gone stark raving bonkers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:33 PM

Seems like they are winning in Mexico too. :(

Subject: RE: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:31 PM

Cops in the US and Canada need a reason to stop a vehicle. Not only that, the Cops know this. Therefore, there would have been a stated reason that the cops gave for hauling this character over. And the cops either provided a really really stupid reason that was unbelievable on the face of it, or had a secret reason based on an informan they didn't want to give away, or something else happened. Cops can be brilliant liars in justifying their actions, so if they didn't have a believable lie they were either bigoted, stupid, or obviously flouting the judiciary. And the judiciary didn't want to appear to inept as to let this lie.

I've been watching the testimony in US Congress toward the confirmation of Judge Sotomayor, and yesterday morning they specifically brought up a case she was involved in judging where mistakes were made in a police search or on a warrant. She had held in a majoriy opinion that innocent mistakes in procedures or paperwork that are not primary in the finding of evidence do not result in abandoning the fruits of said searches (i.e. evidence).

So this short article that is linked to is inadequate in explaining what the judges actually decided and why they decided it. This article is pretty much useless except as a source of raising blood pressure. Judges are not hopheads and my inclination is to believe they would not be letting this guy off without some egregious behavior on the part of the cops.

Subject: BS: The Bad Guys are winning
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 01:21 PM

Well .... in Canada they are.

from today in the CBC ...

Big time coke dealer gets off the hook

I wonder if he gets to keep the coke?

biLL